I'm not getting the grind thing. It looks more like you play through the same stages but with different enemies and varying difficulties rather than grind for loot or exp.

Honestly I think the whole artstyle is a bit freaky, The Dwarf's legs are way to small for his body and the proportions on ALL the characters are just... off.

Also this is even more proof that the text of the review is what is important, not the score, its obvious from the text of the review that its a solid brawler, why in the flying fuck do you care if its got a 6 or a 600000000000000000000000000000 at the end?

To me, reviews are more about a person than just being an outlet for people to gravitate to for similar opinions. I read the few reviews I do because of the people that write them even if I end up disagreeing with them. If I'm just reading reviews to reinforce any preconceived notions I have about a piece of media, then the review fails as a critique. That doesn't take away from the critique itself. It says more about the person consuming it.

winner.

But seriously get your agenda out of here.

Will the video game industry every adopt a scoring system that's actually coherent? People complain about it all the time, yet all these outlets still produce reviews on a 20 point scale with different weights. For all I know, the 6.5 from Polygon could be a "better" score than the 8 from GI.

This whole thing is just the stupidest thing. It really baffles me that outlets haven't adopted something that actually makes sense. Like...maybe...I don't know, Giant Bomb's scoring system?

At a glance, Giant Bomb's is no better than anyone else's.

The art style doesn't bother me, so I'll definitely have to pick this up. I'm just not sure if I'll go vita or ps3. It's cool the game has cross-save, but I wish this supported cross-buy. There's no way I'm buying both versions, at least not at full price.

Between Dragon's Crown's art and Lightning's cleavage, I'm totally convinced that the internet is going to burst into flames from all this drama. Kinda wish GTA V KHIII would come out so everyone could find something else to talk about. Then again, much like GTA V's protagonist complaints, I'm almost positive that people will find something to complain about there.

wait until Killer is Dead comes out next month. It will be this all over again.

@flappy: Damsel in distress or women in refrigerator . It is really easy in that case^^

Holy hell, this thread.

I'm honestly not sure what to say at this point, other than the content of Dragon's Crown doesn't bother me and I will be playing it next week.

As for the Polygon review, I have no issue with the identity of the reviewer, and I don't understand why anyone should, unless she personally slighted you at some point by spitting in your coffee or something. However, the review does fall short of being analytical in its approach (much like most other game reviews output these days) and otherwise isn't anything particularly special. The biggest thing I have against it isn't the review or the reviewer but the site it's published on, as Polygon's review policies have left me wary of their work.

I think I finally figured out the way your mind works across all these posts defending gross exaggerations of the feminine form and it leaves me worried and appalled.

Actually, in recalling Darji's general behavior across threads of a breadth of topics, I'd say he's rarely if ever worth talking to regarding any topic in which he involves himself.

I understand most reviews are opinion driven but I wouldn't mind some reviews that just judge a game value-wise. Present what it does well regardless of whether it erks you the wrong way or not and put out a review that benefits everyone equally.

Judge quality. Nothing else. To many people already on the internet who think we wanna hear their jaded opinions.

Good lord the point just flew so far over your head I'm surprised you even caught a glimpse of it.

The one reviewers problem here isn't that these are well endowed women, her catching point was that these were depictions of women purposefully designed this way to capture the attention of a particular audience. The artist didn't create "well endowed women" to accurately portray the broad strokes of the feminine form, he drew huge tits and arses and 'damsels' in a legs spread subjugated manner.

That you can't notice the gulf of difference between a woman being ample chested and and a game's thought out design involving grossly exaggerated feminine proportions staggers me.

@freshbandito: That's the artist's style. He likes to draw sexy shit. He has no agenda beyond that. No ones proactively trying to force every guy in the world to implode in orgasm.

C'mon guys....

@gnatsol: yeah in another one of these types of threads I saw some more of the artist's style and whilst I don't like his work I am in no way making a judgement on his agenda (or lack thereof, why is the word agenda so prevalent all of a sudden? is it a new buzzword?).

My point is that a naturally developed real life woman having large breasts is not the same as someone deciding to depict a woman that way in a videogame.

An artist liking 'to draw sexy shit' means he's evoking sexuality and people can like or dislike that. A woman being well endowed is not walking the street trying to evoke sexuality.

Ahh who am I kidding this whole argument about a review score is stupid.

@freshbandito: From what I can tell, only one person in this thread is actually seriously accusing anyone (in this case, the Polygon reviewer) of holding some sort of agenda. And keeps making that accusation over and over.

Kind of sounds like the polygon guy had his mind made up before he played the game. I don't really think it's fair that he was more offended by the NPC's than the female party members, just because they had no agency and couldn't blow up a room full of baddies. Having female characters who kick ass, and female characters who don't represent's a broad spectrum, and criticizing the developers for not having every girl be a badass warrior is stupid. Also complaining about NPC's not having agency is something that he should be complaining about in almost every game. That was just the one passage in particular that stuck out to me.

Polygon's reviewer of the game is a woman, dude. Not a guy. (Though honestly, that shouldn't mean anything in critiquing the review.)

I personally don't have a problem with the art style, but I fully appreciate the Polygon reviewer bringing the matter to light as not everyone is bound to dig the art style. Her mentioning it just informed those people and has thus done her job as a reviewer.

As for the art style influencing the final score: I don't care as I stopped looking at final scores a long time ago, they're entirely worthless in helping me decide whether I should check out a game or not.

My point was a general one, not necessarily about the Polygon review. I've already stated in another comment that everything in this game is "grossly exaggerated", both the male and female forms, with men with impossibly broad shoulders and roided out muscle builds.

The game doesn't "portray the broad strokes of the feminine form?" Does it also portray the broad strokes of the masculine form? Are males nothing more than mindless hunks of flesh whose sole purpose is to rescue the beautiful and perfect damsel in distress? Are they there only to serve at her whim? These things can be reduced in both directions.

My previous point was that so many women rightfully desire to wear whatever clothing they want, but then a sexually attractive character is maligned as being nothing more than a sex object. Women dress in real life to be sexually provocative but a character doing the same thing crosses the line? I see this as a little hypocritical. But guess what? All of these characters are archetypes. They ARE objects. They aren't real fucking people. This game is a stupid dungeon crawler with exaggerations everywhere.

The game does feel grindy at some points. While the art is polarizing I don't think that should affect the review score. I thought Dust's art was terrible but that didn't stop me from having fun with it

Ok here is a review from another women that also touches on the art. This is how you should do it.

I only copy the art part because that is the main controversy here:

The art

It’s totally understandable if you find the art in Dragon’s Crown offensive, repulsive, and demeaning to women. It really is, but we should also take a second to consider what games and media influenced the game. Golden Axe depicts various underclothed warrior types in fur boots and loin cloths. All the characters in the original Sega arcade game and later Genesis versions are notably without protective clothing, but they are not depicted in an overly sexual light. That wild barbarian vibe does make its way into Dragon’s Crown.

That influence is likely coming from Western genre fantasy. Snake women with breasts, overly sexualized Amazonian fighters laying waste to monsters in bikinis, and women contorting themselves in impossible ways all comes out of fantasy artist Boris Vallejo’s work. He’s not alone in depicting fantasy worlds as oily, sweaty, naked places, and it’s easy to see how those images would work their way into a semi-Western inspired “let’s go slay the dragon” adventure.

Dragon’s Crown plays like a Dungeons & Dragons inspired brawler, borrowing a great deal from fantasy stories where random (and sometimes unusual) characters team up for a common goal. Putting a tradition-driven Amazon or a sultry sorcerer next to the modestly dressed female elf archer accentuates the idea that heroes from all walks of life are coming together to save the day, regardless of their appearance and history. Every character you encounter in Dragon’s Crown is drawn in the same exaggerated style, not just the female ones. This stylistic choice doesn’t single out women for revealing/repulsive interpretations but supports the idea that the entire world is pure fantasy.

I also argue that we treat various fetishistic illustrations differently, and often without thinking. To me, I do not see much difference in Kamitani drawing to appeal to his aesthetic sense and American cartoonist Robert Crumb openly creating work that appealed to his tastes. Crumb’s work often depicts women with massive, impossibly large legs, much like the Amazon in Dragon’s Crown. Kamitani is free to design his characters according to his standards, even if they make us uncomfortable. That uncomfortable feeling might be his aim or his challenge to audiences who shy away from bare forms in various shapes and sizes.

I’m sure people find a lot to dislike in Crumb’s often disgusting work, and people are still free to remove themselves from it. But I think Crumb’s creativity outshines the sometimes abrasive way he draws, and the same is true for Kamitani. His art is beautiful, albeit sexually charged. It does not detract from the solid gameplay it illustrates and actually reaffirms the idea that the game world is nothing like our own. But you’re free to skip Dragon’s Crown because of it’s style.

It’s up to the player to decide if DC’s art is acceptable or not, but understanding possible inspirations and motivations can help you make a more reasoned decision beyond disliking Kamitani’s work solely because female characters are skimpily clothed.

Read more at

http://venturebeat.com/2013/07/31/dragons-crown-review/#ebpCKmOQu4uGgXGp.99

This is overall a great review focusing not only on the game but also the controversy. This is how reviewer should do it. Also the review is really good written and should be read if you are interested in the game.

@darji: well good thing you found one of the 'good' ones.

There is a clear difference between a women choosing to dress like that on her own, and a company/artist choosing to create a character like that.

Why shouldn't someone not liking the art affect the review score? Is that not a valid criticism? Is a reviewer only allowed to critique the core mechanics and gameplay? As long as the game plays fine, everything else is free from criticism?

Oh okay my bad. That doesn't change my criticism of the review (but it does highlight how little attention I paid to it).

No wonder it was a bad review right fellas? Right?

@animasta: There are tons of great reviews but this is exactly how I wold have done it. Mention it. explain where it comes from and then leave it out of the review score. And it was also written by a women which is also important since people thought in here they complain because it was reviewed by a woman which was never an issue.

@mcghee: The fact that I didn't raise the characterization of men doesn't signify that I am fine with their depiction in the art style it merely says that in that post I didn't raise the equality of depiction.

You still just don't seem to understand the point between a woman choosing to dress in a provocative way and a man depicting a woman in a provocative way.

@hailinel Yeah it just seems like the word suddenly became a sticking point in regard for someone expressing their opinion, was worried it was the new 'White knight'

@williamhenry: It is not the art but rather her interpretation about his thinking behind it when he created this game. She even admits that she loves the art style and the enemy design.

Few and far between among dirty feminists, I guess. Right? I guess? Ugh.

except the OP straight up said that before he edited his post. and you kept on referring ot the polygon reviewer as a feminist, which I'm going to assume this other reviewer is also a feminist! :O it's almost like feminist can mean anything in any discussion or something.

seriously. This is like the cousin of the "I have black friends" thing. I mean fuck, this site? mad subjective. Just because your good reviewer didn't take the character designs into account and the polygon one did doesn't make either any better than the other, because reviews are not objective.

@darji: Darji, seriously. Just stop. Just please, for the love of all that is holy, shut up and leave this thread. You have failed to contribute constructively to this conversation so spectacularly that any actual decently made point you do make is bound to be justifiably ignored. You are not going to win anything here. There is nothing for you to win. You have chosen to play a game of Press Your Luck where every single space on the board is a Whammy.

I'm glad it turned out to be pretty good.

Not sure if I should get this or Tales of Xillia next week.

or maybe I should just start playing SMT IV >___>

And I just....really...need to stress something here. People need to stop using feminist as some dirty word. I don't see what's so terrible about wanting equal rights for women. 99.9% of feminists could just as easily be called Humanists or Equalists. They want equality for everyone. Seriously, cut that shit out.

@animasta: There are tons of different types of feminist groups out there. There is not one opinion that represents all feminists. Again what I do not like are sex negative feminists and radical feminists because these are the people who are thinking that less clothing means sexist. Sex or stripping in fron of mean means sexist and so on.

I once had found a huge list of all different groups and their views and there were more than 100 different feminist groups on there. Sadly I lost the link..

@freshbandito: @williamhenry:

And if that character designer happened to be female, it would then be OK?

All of that aside, saying that a man depicting a sexually provocative woman is somehow wrong is a little ludicrous.

I mean, look at this sexist garbage.

I would have never even imagined that fake, drawn tits in a video game could spark such controversy.

You've certainly showed me, internet.

@darji: literally no evidence she's a sex negative feminist. I don't like the dragon's crown character designs because they look gross and physically impossible. I am fine with nudity when it is valid (such as The Void, except for Yani cause she looks like she's 13 or something). Disagree with the Polygon review, fine, but that's literally one review out of 20 or something. It's seriously not that big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

Also here is another example:

It has a special touch mini game mode in which you can touch NPC's look how you also can touch males and how they react. And before anyone comes with "you can touch the boobs but not the dick?" A penis and breasts are two totally different things. So do not even try that.

Fringe groups don't define the whole. No matter how much you try and paint the entire movement as radicals, the facts don't support you. Seven billion people on the planet, of course there's going to be crazies in every movement large enough to gain any sort of traction. But, again, the core of feminism may as well be called humanism. The core of feminism simply wants women, worldwide, to be treated fairly. This weird world you've painted for yourself where feminists only get their way at the expense of your rights does not exist.

Imagine a game with a male character whose primary trait was his penis. He wears clothes that are designed with the specific goal of showing off his penis. The artist who designed the character made his proportions and the lines of his figure to draw your eyes to his crotch. Everything about the way he stands, moves and acts is designed specifically to make you think about his hard, throbbing cock.

I think a lot of the people saying that people are being silly and need to stop whining would be bothered by this game and wouldn't want to play it.

@darji: The way it looks like moving paintings is actually kind of amazing.

watch this and we can talk again. I think I posted this video quite a few times already.

This is feminism I totally agree with. And unlike the other ones She shows evidence how it really is in our western World.

First off, unfortunately, I have to acknowledge that many of the comments here and elsewhere are just embarrassing for me as a gamer and fellow human being. In the near future, I hope a lot of you will take a serious look at yourself and consider how your narrow-minded perspective and pride may be clouding you from being more considerate of others and their concerns.

Beyond that, I think these are some decent reviews, and their range fits with my own feelings on the game. If you're looking for a D&D-esque beat em up, I can hardly imagine a better recent example. I've watched a few people play a good number of hours of Dragon's Crown, and it looks quite fun and gorgeous. The designs and treatment of many characters and NPCs are concerning, but the game does make a decent case for it not detracting too much from the overall feel of the fantasy setting. Though, how much it detracts from the experience will likely depend on the individual, and I can understand how it bothers some more than others. The visuals do seem too busy at times, as well, and there is perhaps a bit more grinding than even most beat em ups. But there is a level of depth and re-playability that makes it a gem of the genre.

Also, collecting items on the PS3 appears much less intuitive than on the PSVita in what may be one of the best uses of its touchscreen I've seen. I imagine the game is great on either platform, but I might give the Vita version the edge based on my initial impressions as an observer.

I'm really glad the game turned out so solid, and while I absolutely understand and respect many gamers(and reviewers) taking serious issue with the treatment of female characters in the game, I hope that many people will be able to get some enjoyment out of it. Seems like a fine title for the Vita that should provide a great deal of fun.

I don't caaaaaaaaaaaaaaare about any of this shit anymore all of this talk both positive and negative has me absolutely chomping at the bit to play. I've got my co-op partner lined up and she is really excited to play as well. Which is infinitely sad that I'm sitting here bored now seeing as I just bought a ton of games on the steam sale.

I'm just ready for fucking July to be over maaaan. Bring on August!

my take on the art. looks nice, almost a terry gilliam quality.

men are treated just as ridiculously as the women (who aren't attractive) so can't call them out.

even heroes shouldn't skip leg day.

@mcghee: You somehow seem to keep hugely missing the point people are trying to explain to you to the point where I'm not even sure you're reading and understanding the posts.

If a woman designed those characters then I daresay people would still be pointing out how ludicrous the character designs are though there'd probably be more focus on how grossly exaggerated all the characters are instead of just the female ones. People's misgivings about representation don't just go away because someone in the traditional 'victim' form were involved, Just look at the Reginald D. Hunter incident at the football player's awards.

In regards to you using images like the Venus; The naked human form is not sexist and I really think you don't understand the meaning of sexism, whether there's an issue with nudity in artistic form it's all in the portrayal. A marble sculpture is no more crass or vulgar when depicting a nude human being than someone noticing the attractiveness of another person's form. The problem comes in when that depiction is warped to meet a certain mindset or fetishisation and then given as a generalisation in the context of the medium e.g. In this game there are scantily clad women who sit near spread eagled and helpless until the player character rescues them from their torment of posing as though they're in a playboy photoshoot.

There is an entire world of difference between your real world examples and the decision of an artistic direction that some people will find distasteful whilst others will enjoy it.

@freshbandito: The thing about art is that it can be seen as distasteful to some surprising groups no matter what is depicted. The Statue of Liberty, for example, was protested by some Christians when it was first erected because it's basically a giant idol in the form of the Roman goddess Libertas. Yet the statue does not feature any intrinsic vulgarity; only that projected upon it by certain individuals.