Good to hear that the game's a great beat-em-up. I haven't been following it at all(though I've caught little snippets of people's gripes with it), but as an avid beat-em-up fan, that's great news. The art style's...not really my cup of tea, but I'm not going to freak out about it. I can understand why it would turn people off, and there's nothing wrong with that. Can't say it's drawing me in(that's just a gross amount of boobage and muscle mass), and if I weren't to play the game, it would possibly be a factor for that. However, I do think the actual graphics themselves look pretty fantastic, and the moving painting-like style is gorgeous. Just the characters and such that disinterest me. That being said, I'll probably still play it eventually. The good reviews have at least prompted me to look into it a little more, maybe watch some video reviews and stuff. I'll be all over the quick look if there's one.

@freshbandito: fetishisation is not sexist. It is just a sexual desire that goes for men and women. Women also fantasize about stuff like rape just like men do. They fantasize about domination and masochism like men do. And they should have the right to do so. They are not less men or women when they are thinking about it or have fetish like that. And media supports these fetishes especially in Japan. Japan is the most liberal country when we talk about this kind of stuff.

But this has not even anything to do with this stuff. It is a game inspired by western classic stuff and designs set in a total fantasy world. There are no rules for a fantasy world and there should be no rules. If he wants that everyone runs around naked or has 2 dicks and 4 boobs so be it. No one has the right to stop him. The only way to stop him is not to buy his products. But since there is a market for that stuff it has the right to exist in any form. Just like furry has a right to exist even I do not like it one bit.

so you know.......bottom line.........the games art style was a success........ cause it has people for better or worse. talking about the game (and the game sold close to 200k already which is apparently good for vanillaware)

im pro the camp of who cares about the art style let the creator make what he wants. and who are we to tell people what they should like or dislike.

but lets be honest here, how much of you would even be talking about this game or even know this game existed, if it wasn't for this drama.

There sure has been a lot of talk on GiantBomb over sexualized females today. I must admit in the case of Dragon's Crown it does appear to be a little distracting, both in the case of the female bodies and the male's. Although that does feel very deliberate and I quite like the exaggerated style of it all.

Hearing EpicNameBro talk about the gameplay in his video review made me eager to try it. Unfortunately Europe won't be getting this game for a while yet, so no super-busty women or super-muscly men for me. :(

@darji: Having seen your previous discussion I somehow knew as soon as i hit post that you'd focus on the word fetish.

No offense but you kinda creep me out with your focus on all this. And stop saying the word 'Japan' as though that's a pass for being creepy/

That was what I was going to say as I was reading this thread.

I don't have a problem with the Polygon review. I think Danielle was chosen because she was the most qualified and Phil was already on the Pikmin 3 review (plus he's busy with spawning a child). It's not like anyone on Giant Bomb is qualified, though, except maybe Jeff but he mentioned how bored he was with an earlier build.

I understand people take reviews personal because they're afraid of what possible outcomes that could happen to games (or studios) that they love, but this seemed like something that was drawn in the sand months ago. Like, you probably knew if you were going to buy Dragon's Crown or not already. And if someone were on the fence, I imagine they were leaning in one direction and would only listen to reviews that confirmed what they were already thinking. Just my guess.

@freshbandito: Sexuality is not creepy it is something totally normal. But I am European so I guess I am more open with this kind of stuff.^^

What I always wonder is why is this not Ok but killing tons of people in very cruel ways is totally fine by you guys? Personally I think killing people with a chainsaw and enjoying it is way more creepy than sexual stuff. But luckily I am not getting offended by such stuff in any way^^

And I bring Japan up because it is a Japanese game.

Absolutely, any artistic depiction will stimulate a wide range of responses and they will always be split as to whether it's to someone's taste.

I was more confused as to the poster's point in how the Venus de Milo was some defensible point from which to start an art can't be sexist stand. To use their own argument against them why are they ignoring pieces like Michaelangelo's David?

I get that some people like the art style in this game but why must they be so defensive when someone says "I don't really like it, looks a bit overly sexual to me"

@freshbandito: Not like the art is totally acceptable trying to judge it as sexist and as a disgrace to women however is not since there are also women who like this kind of stuff as well.

I think it's because, interspersed with reasoned criticisms like that, there are also people basically saying, "This is gross. It's obviously pandering to horny sixteen-year-old boys and you have to be a pervert to find those breasts attractive in any way."

There are overreactions on both sides, just as there are reasoned reactions on both sides.

You know, The score that Polygon gave is probably the most realistic.

And let's not argue schematics about the art style here, either. It's a fucking brawler. and those are fun, but I can never see them being 8, 9, or 10 fun.

fun like that is low-key, and not a "drop your pants and play this game." kind of thing. The Polygon lady makes good points, regardless of where your butt sits on the art booby fence.

@freshbandito: @truthtellah You know, I can totally get all of that. My problem with all of this hub-bub over this and the lightning costume thing in FFXIII and whatever other brew-ha-ha that gets stirred up over this is if you aren't automatically offended by this you apparently get painted as a sub-human piece of shit because you aren't offended. A lot of this online discourse regarding these things at times can feel often witch-hunty. Hell, I've heard instances of women being called gender traitors by men after they aren't particularly offended by some controversial thing in a game. I can get women often feeling that they have lacking representation and I gladly welcome an injection of games that more women can identify with however I still really really don't see what is wrong with having games that do indulge in male fantasies. Everything game that is released doesn't need to be for everyone.

Now yeah, I get it everyone is going to say "Well that is just the problem most games are male power fantasies" again, true I don't think demonizing everyone who enjoys things such as the aforementioned costume in Final Fantasy or the characters in Dragon's Crown and generally causing a ruckus about it is the solution here. Encouraging and making more and interesting games is the solution so that the options are more plentiful for people to choose from.

All negative reviews are written by women on the most tumblr-esque sites on the net(The good ol' Gawker click-bait trick)

All the positive are written by men.

Guess who buys the most video games?

You should know that without looking at this

still going on? I thought my post about the sorceress's true age cleared this shit up?......well see you guys in the Killer is Dead is sexist thread I guess?

how is this a big deal?

If the proportions were realistic and the art style not cartoon and it was realistic slutty chicks then i could see it, but its cartoon tits the size of her entire torso. Who cares? Its goofy and over the top to be goofy and over the top.

If you don't like it fine, but don't make the entire conversation about the game be about a pair of tits.

That would be your opinion. I enjoy a good brawler and I could easily see one rating as an 8, 9, or even 10. Where Dragon's Crown sits on my personal scale, I won't know until I play it, but I'm pretty certain it'll be higher than a 6.5.

Who are "you guys?" is that the ever lurking and ephemeral people with the "agenda?"

I don't like this art style, I don't like killing people with a chainsaw either, disliking one doesn't mean I like the other both are weird and just because Japan likes one or the other doesn't stop me disliking either. Why are you so determined to change mine and other's opinions about the art style?

@hailinel: well you could technically make the argument that finding any virtual lady (or even virtual guy) attractive (or sexy) is perverted.

I think thinking the sorceress attractive is a little perverted considering she can only exist virtually, if she was real her body wouldn't be able to support her upper half without breast reduction surgery.

Well you're not going to rate gears of war as a bad game just because it has chainsaw violence in it. That's fucking stupid.

@freshbandito: ..

It is not about liking the art style or not, I don't like the look of the game either. It is about calling it juvenile and sexist and harming for women. That is the problem here.

why didn't they assign a reviewer who loved everything about the game rabberabble I don't understand the function of reviews grr

She's a fictional character with stylized proportions. Such stylizing has existed for a long, long time. It's not about judging the character against realism. Maybe she's perverted to you, maybe not. It's not my place to say what you should think in that regard. People that do enjoy the game and that do enjoy the art style, however, should be allowed to do so without being labeled senselessly.

Fair point, I think my view of where the overreactions were mainly happening was influenced by one poster's fervent campaign to get everybody to love the game in it's entirety.

@freshbandito: Please go back and read through our conversations. I have addressed the core point in each post you have made.

The problem comes in when that depiction is warped to meet a certain mindset or fetishisation and then given as a generalisation in the context of the medium e.g. In this game there are scantily clad women who sit near spread eagled and helpless until the player character rescues them from their torment of posing as though they're in a playboy photoshoot.

We are just going in circles. I have already addressed this. You are saying there's a problem. I'm saying that I understand that someone won't like such a style but that it is not a "problem" for the industry/society to "fix." It is an exaggerated and overblown art style all around, and that's OK. There is a fundamental disagreement here that won't be solved. So that's it.

Darji is not worth engaging and should not be used as a barometer to judge any game's fanbase.

No but I could very well express my opinion that it is an overly graphic and distasteful part of the game and if it offended me more than that then it would definitely affect my appreciation of the game. Then again having played the games I really don't think they're that great anyway.

Yes you can and that is totally fine. But giving a lower score because of that however is not. And exactly this happened here with the polygon review.

I was making the argument about attractiveness. I mean I kinda like the... green coated lady (archer?). but thinking the art style is cool is very different than thinking they're attractive I feel

And if someone does find the sorceress attractive for whatever reason, what of it?

That's like saying that Mortal Kombat shouldn't have gotten 5 stars from Giant Bomb, because it's a fighting game, and I can never see them getting a 5. Or Halo 4 shouldn't have gotten 4 stars, because it's a shooter. Or Forza shouldn't score higher than 3 stars because it's a driving game.

But what about art? Because it is entirely possible someone can be in a museum and go "Hmm, I don't like this painting" that happens to have women in it. If that person is your wife or your daughter, did they say that is it because of THE AGENDA? Because it is a female looking at a female in a piece of art that doesn't like it so there must be something going on!! *cue dramatic music*

As much as Darji complains about militant feminism has run rampant, I keep seeing how obsessed Darji is with the topic in general and see stuff that isn't there.

Exactly, but letting a personal hang up about a very specific feature of the art style effect the score of your PROFESSIONAL review is just well....dumb.

Yes, mention it, write an entire paragraph about it. Let people know about it and that it bothered you, but don't let it factor into the score of the game. Unless the tits are flopping around so bad that you can't see anything else, then its really a non-issue.

Check it out guys. This game looks pretty good.

We'll have to disagree then, I don't like the style and it's depiction of women in particular though that doesn't exclude me from thinking the men look overly weird too, that for me is a problem that stems from the exaggerated and overblown style instead of being excused by it.

I can say there's a problem and you can say there isn't and we can argue this until the world ends but what I am trying to get across is just why I think this way.

I'm not sure there is anything weird about it. As humans and society progress and how we view sex and gender is ever evolving and becoming more complex I'm not sure why someone particularly finding a drawn character attractive is so weird.

I think the Paste review is able to do that for the most part even if he finds the visuals problematic. The only thing I disagree with is calling the developer a creep and homophobe. That shows a lack of professionalism.

I never said anything like that. Again your opinion if your own thing and you can like whatever you want. And I will never say you are wrong. However. Reviews are opinion "maker" they form a opinion on a certain viewership and you should not judge stuff like that in reviews or even lower the score because of it. Mention it, explain maybe why he has chosen this artstyle and then say it totally depends on you if you will like it or not. But do not let in influence the score you are giving a game.

And I am so "obsessed" with it because this is getting really annoying right now and it is getting worse and worse. I am really upset how the media right now is fishing for clicks with this method and how they tackle mostly this topic.

@hailinel: I dunno, it just seems... like they're desiring a woman that could never exist and (possibly) applying that to real life (and thus objectifying them), though those people probably aren't going to get a woman anywhere close to half of that anyway so I guess it's a moot point.

I think that depends on what your view of a review is, I personally think of reviews as the reviewer's experience and if something in that game puts them off and takes away from their enjoyment then they will dock points accordingly and people who think the same way will take what they need from that review.

The caveat here is my opinion on reviews is: Who gives a shit about reviews?

Look, people have unreachable fantasies of all sorts. I know that I have some fantasies that will never, ever come true because they are physically impossible. That doesn't mean that it's not worth fantasizing about, though. If someone finds the sorceress or amazon or any of the other characters in the game attractive, that's their business and there's no reason to judge them for it. It doesn't mean that's what they seek in a real partner; it's just something that they find attractive.

Well said sir. Well said.

yep, have to agree with hailinel yet again. people should like what they want to like in piece. if there are "otakus" that dig this artstyle and the look of the ladies, let them be, who are we to take away what others find enjoyment in?

@truthtellah said:

@benny said:

Some of the 'opinions' in this thread seem waaaaaaaay more offensive than anything in the actual game.

So... why wasn't this the end of this argument?

When the American PR Manager for the company that published the fucking thing is okay with her review, how others can not get it is beyond me.

argh I have been defeated by my own ham hands once again

(that's not really what I meant but I have a killer tooth ache and can't really think critically very well atm)

@demoskinos: I definitely get where you're coming from, and the more personal attacks amongst one another are rarely helpful for the discussion. Unfortunately, just because some people may object to something in an extreme fashion doesn't mean something can't be objected to. Same as how some people who defend something can be really extreme but that doesn't mean no one can like something. I appreciate that some like it just fine, and I am only embarrassed by those who seem incapable of understanding how anyone could have concerns or a different perspective and feel it necessary to attack more critical reviewers.

If someone is concerned by something, I can understand them expressing that concern, and I can accept their concern similar to accepting that some may be less concerned. That doesn't mean I think the sides are equal, but I can at least give them similar consideration. I am not always bothered by something that others are, and even if I don't feel the same way, I can try to empathize with how they feel. In this case, I think there are problematic elements within the game, mainly dealing with NPCs, which bother me, and as a matter of personal taste, I think the design of the sorceress and amazon detract from them as characters. Having said that, I can understand that some are less bothered by these things and actually may like them. I don't believe that makes them monsters; it just makes them people I think are wrong about this one thing. You disagree with enough people in your life that it's not the end of the world when you might consider someone wrong about something, as people are different and will often have various reasons for feeling as they do.

Fortunately, in this instance, I believe the game is strong enough to make up for what concerns I may have. That doesn't mean I won't express those concerns, as they still remain. But I am glad that it turned out well enough and consistent enough to make possibly playing it still enjoyable. As for the treatment of Lightning in Lightning Returns, well, time will tell whether the game is solid enough to make it more of a nuisance than anything else, but the game's relative quality won't change that I feel these are unfortunate design decisions. I know plenty of people will be fine with it, but I can only express how I feel. And for me, I find it concerning and feel it's worth bringing up.

Some people may be more over-the-top in their objections to things, but that doesn't mean I can't still speak up on something. If people want to like it, that's up to them, but for me, it's an issue I feel deserves a few critical words. Regardless, I wouldn't care as much about such things if I didn't care about the game, and I hope Lightning Returns will turn out well. And for Dragon's Crown, I'm glad it turned out relatively solid for those who will check it out. Despite some issues, it seems like a fine and stylish beat-em-up.

now this is the more balanced truthtellah im a fan of. definitely dont agree with you, but i do respect the civility you keep. and how you can at least see both sides.

You've got a bad toothache? Did you have work done on it today or are you planning on seeing a dentist tomorrow? What are you taking for the toothache? :o

Surprised no one else brought that up. When trying to be objective, writing in the first person is a big no no.

Tooth pain suuuucks I have a few teeth that have just entirely fell apart.