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#1 Posted by ka385385 (57 posts) -

Okay first of all sorry for the "click bait" type of tittle, I know this is kinda old topic and normally I try to avoid internet discussion but this has bother me for quite some time and I want to talk about it for a very long time now, also I want to provide a little bit of diversity of thoughts which I think is most needed in recent time.

First I want to say I do think Witcher 3 is a good game, and I know a lots of nerd elitists praise CD Projekt Red's Witcher 3 because of their advance graphic and compelling storytelling (plus nudity and gore) and it really really appealing to some people which I understand, but why I don't get is that the new fanbase Witcher 3 build has constantly bashing other game for not taking the same approach as Witcher and anyone who disagree, especially back in 2015 hardcore RPG fans seems to holding grudge against Fallout 4 for not staying on the same root.

I think Fallout 4 is better than Witcher 3 because Fallout 4 no longer being just an RPG, it actually try to innovate, even if something doesn't work quiet as well at the end, it was walking toward the right direction, while Witcher 3 did it best to polish the old formula (Fun fact, Witcher 3 was actually trying to include a location damage system similar as Fallout, but was scratch before release).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------Personal Opinion Section--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fallout New Vegas was my favorite game of all time, it has more RPG element and better storytelling than Fallout 4, while I could admit that I’m disappointed that Fallout 4's story isn't as good as New Vegas and it doesn't feature hardcore RPG element like New Vegas, Fallout 4 make it up with great FPS experience and customization (really love the new armor part system), plus the settlement system is very decent, making a Minecraft system out of a triple A RPG was no small feat, it does feel a bit overwhelming at first since building those things does need some time investment (would prefer other settlement as end game award rather than unlock them one by one while I still didn't polish my first settlement), but once I get my effort into it, it became one of best experience I have in video game, it's the first Fallout game I enjoy doing nothing, just walk around and see my favorite settlers and companions going on their daily routine in the settlement I designed, and the new Power Armor system is also pretty cool, Bethesda really put their effort in this as you can see they even notice some minor animation detail like when you entering power armor (out of combat), your character will push the power armor which cause it to shake a little bit, lots of people complaint Bethesda not putting effort in their game and this is where I disagree. Finally, we all knew Bethesda game is buggy (I take it because the studio is rather understaffed for a triple A game studio, Bethesda game studio only has 180 employees, other studio like Ubisoft Montreal have around 1800, Rockstar has more than 1000, CDPR has 600, Bioware has 800), but Fallout 4 is the far less buggy game I played from them, as I usually experienced no game breaking from it unlike Skyrim.

Now on to the Witcher 3 part, my biggest let down of this game is despite it's an hardcore RPG, we can't play as our own character, we stuck with this Witcher Ggeralt who's kinda like a medieval Batman with Jedi power, I know this series was never about create our own character, but that's the best part of RPG for me, it's like taking ham out of a hamburger. The game does looks great, so does it's voice acting although the main character Ggeralt is rather boring, he always talk like Batman which is very forceful, you can argue he talk like that because of his job as Witcher, but Vesemir is a Witcher too and he speak like your average uncle Joe which is far more neutral. It's also really bother me to stuck on this character for a game that provide hundreds of hours of content, but then you get to play as Ciri who is more interesting character than Ggeralt, and gameplay wise it would make more sense if we play as her instead of Ggeralt, since Ciri is a Witcher student and Ggeralt is an experience Witcher, if we play as Ciri most of the game and Ggeralt on certain part the game might be more engaging, I know this is mostly appeal to male audiences so if they make Ciri the main character it might drive away a sizable amount of players, which is another reason why I think Fallout 4 is better than this game, Fallout 4 is simply more mass-friendly, and attract bigger female fanbase than Witcher 3, the next part is rather personal, I’m an Asian from Taiwan, so the whole medieval setting is just not that appeal to me, or most of people from Asia as matter of fact, the setting kinda remind me Game of Throne, which is also not very popular in my region despite its culture impact on the western world, I know this isn't the best reason to compare two games but it's still an important factor, an interesting setting with less detail like Fallout 4 is better than Witcher 3's uninteresting setting with lots of detail, and the combat... I don't think I need to explain it too much, because it's sort of over-simplified, slash and dodge with very few spell and a rather useless crossbow, lots of people complaint about Skyrim's combat system but Witcher 3's combat system is even less of that.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------End of Personal Opinion Section--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now on to some statistics facts.

Currently Fallout 4 is still one of most played single player game (feature no multiplayer) on Steam, beats The Witcher 3 and even Skyrim, despite so many people lament about the game, And yes it's because of mods, everyone knows it, but it doesn't make it less of a reason why it's a better game than Witcher 3.

And Fallout 4 won game of the year award on 2016 DICE award and British Academy Games Awards while Witcher 3 did won more awards than Fallout 4, but I consider DICE award and British Academy Games Awards are more remarkable because other big award like Golden Joystick Awards and Game Developers Choice Awards nominate Anita Sarkeesian for Gaming Personality of the Year and Game Ambassador of the Year, which I don't know about you but they kind of lost creditably to me.

Sorry if my English isn't smooth, it took me quiet some time to figure out how to wrote this, as I said before I'm from Taiwan.

Feel free to disagree with me, as long as it's in a polite and civilize way, or not...I have no problem with people who prefer Witcher 3 more than Fallout 4, both are great but I just feel like someone need to make a statement for the silent majority of how great Fallout 4 actually is because the new Witcher fanbase are constantly bashing people with different opinion. Some of them even send death threat to Youtube reviewer for talking bad thing about it's combat, and starting to post fake positive review on Glassdoor after news about CD Projekt Red's working condition problem starting to surface...But that's a story for another day.

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#2 Edited by ll_Exile_ll (3014 posts) -

Comparing these two games is kind of silly in the first place. They only share superficial similarities, mostly because they are both open worlds RPGs, but at the core they are very different games. I think taking this approach is not going to win you much favor, and I feel like you'd get a much better response if you simply talked about why you think Fallout 4 is an underrated game rather than trying to prove it's better than another highly praised game that it shares only superficial elements in common with. The Witcher 3 is primarily aiming to deliver a strong narrative with compelling characters in a richly portrayed fictional world. Fallout is all about exploration and player freedom, with narrative and characterization taking a major backseat.

I think you do makes some decent points, but others not so much. Complaining that you have to play as Geralt in the Witcher is like complaining that you can't create your own character in Super Mario Odyssey. Geralt is the Witcher, the books were mainly about him, with Ciri and Yennefer also having large roles. The previous two games are about him. It's fine if you prefer games where you create your own character, but that's not a fault of The Witcher. It's not that type of game and was never meant to be.

I also don't think player population numbers or random GOTY awards are a very good tactic to take in this argument. Even though I think the comparison is silly in the first place, if you're going to do it keep the discussion centered on the merits of the games. Being popular is not a 1:1 correlation to quality, and bringing up player counts as some sort of "objective" metric of quality is a major fallacy. I also don't think bringing up GOTY awards really helps your argument. You're trying to claim that the awards Fallout won were more prestigious and that the publications that awarded The Witcher are less reputable. Aside from being pretty transparent and questionable in assessment, you conveniently neglected to mention that The Witcher not only won "more" awards like you said, but somewhere in the vicinity of 70% of the GOTY awards for 2015, with rest mostly being split between MGS V, Fallout 4, and Bloodborne.

The final thing I'd like to say is this. Don't let the internet hivemind get to you. Yes, it is true that general consensus seems to be that The Witcher 3 is a great game and Fallout 4 is disappointing, but it's not a universal truth, just a common opinion. If you didn't enjoy The Witcher 3 and you love Fallout 4, there's nothing wrong with that. I understand the desire to defend something you love when it seems like it's criticized a lot, but taking the approach of trying to disparage a popular game to prove the game you love is better is misguided in my opinion.

Not every game has to be pitted against each other. There's no limit to the number of games you can love, and loving one thing doesn't mean you need to dislike something else. Two games can be good in their own ways without having to be directly compared.

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#3 Edited by BaneFireLord (3564 posts) -

I was in the middle of typing out a very long response, but @ll_exile_ll hit most of my points. The only addendum I'd add is that I don't really buy your premise that the Witcher fanbase has been bashing Fallout 4 for not being more Witcher-like. Bethesda's games have always been open-ended canvasses to tell your own story with, and have never been about focused storytelling. I'd wager a guess that anyone arguing they should follow CDPR in that regard either has no idea what they're talking about or probably just don't like Bethesda's style of games to begin with. Your time would be best spent ignoring them, if they even exist to begin with.

Ironically, most of the criticisms I've seen leveled at F4 have actually been the opposite of your experience, mostly concerning how badly they neutered the open-ended aspects of their RPG systems. And honestly? They ain't wrong. Speaking as a noted Bethesda apologist, even I think that adding a voiced protagonist and all-but removing skill checks in favor of some Z-tier Mass Effect knockoff conversation system was the biggest misstep they've ever made that didn't involve the phrase "Creation Club".

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#4 Posted by Zeik (5192 posts) -

Fallout 4 is barely even an RPG anymore while The Witcher 3 is one of the most RPG-ass-RPGs of recent years. If you like what Fallout does better that's fine, but it's apples and oranges at this point.

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#5 Posted by Efesell (4475 posts) -

Really more hung up on the idea that you could claim Witcher 3 combat is less varied than Skyrim.

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#6 Posted by shivermetimbers (1706 posts) -

I would make the argument that you can't play your own character in FO4, your character is pretty much already made for you. You just decide whether or not they are snarky, a jackass, good, or inquisitive in conversation trees. That's not really role-playing.

I agree with some points, but I wouldn't put Witcher 3 on the same level playing field as FO4. FO4 is really an open world FPS game that you can just do stuff in, while The Witcher 3 really wants you to participate and care about the world it's centered around. FO4 I'll admit is more satisfying to play, but I'll also say it's a guilty pleasure of mine. I like it better than a lot of other Bethesda games, including Skyrim, but that's because the gameplay is more honed in. If Morrowind's barrier to entry was better, I'd very much consider it to be my favorite Bethesda game (or RPG in general). That's because like the Witcher 3, they took time to craft a world worth caring about.

But yeah, playing FO4 on survival mode is one of my favorite things I've done in gaming. But I'm not at all surprised that people hate FO4. It's not really a world worth caring about or being in so much as an FPS survival playground.

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#7 Posted by fatalbanana (1106 posts) -

Yeah, no. It's cool if you like Fallout 4 more than Witcher 3 but most (not all) of the reasons you laid out are either wrong or not useful. Obviously, the only thing this comes down to is opinion and no one can say your opinion is invalid. You have your own reasons for liking stuff.

I found Fallout 4 to be incredibly boring. I think it plays it too safe and doesn't innovate on its core enough to be a worthy follow-up to the games that came before it. The world feels sterile and uninteresting and outside of a few characters, there are very few memorable NPC's to interact with. There are some good side missions but I found the main story to not live up to its potential. there are cool moments but on the whole, it really didn't do it for me.

Witcher 3 is my favorite game of the last few years. The sheer amount of good to fantastic stories are too many to count and honestly kind of unbelievable they were able to put so much quality content in this game. People have issues with the combat, understandably so, but I actually like it a lot outside of it feeling a bit clumsy sometimes. I think It's really something special anything else I say will probably just come off as hyperbolic fawning so I'll just end it there. It isn't a perfect game by any means but I certainly think it's better than Fallout.

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#8 Posted by vizard1301 (233 posts) -

Fallout 4 is not an RPG its just a shooting game

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#9 Posted by mach_go_go_go (207 posts) -

Fallout 4 is barely even a Fallout game at this point. It has more in common with Minecraft than the original CRPG that inspired it.

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#10 Posted by Stonyman65 (3806 posts) -

I honestly don't know how to respond to this OP. I'm kind of at a loss for words, which is unusual since I generally have pretty strong opinions about these types of things.

I guess I'll say this.

NO.

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#11 Posted by ka385385 (57 posts) -

@banefirelord: @banefirelord: @ll_exile_ll

Yes this is what I thinking when the comparison show up in the first place, it's two very VERY different game and it's weird when people insist to compare it, somehow it drag me into the void as well.

They add voiced protagonist which I think it's not bad but I definitely favor silent protagonist more because modder can't fill that when making mods, even Todd Howard admit the new dialog system didn't work as well we they thought, about the creation club, well...I was having high hope for it, but it was rather poorly executed, was hoping they would bring back voice actors to restore some of cut quest like The Replacement, voice acting has been a hole that's hard to fill by modders for a long time, creation club was a great way to do that, but right now I'm not counting on it.

One of the biggest reason I wrote this because I never heard of Witcher before people keep comparing Fallout 4 and Witcher 3, and so many people praise it and I want to give it a shot despite this was never my type of game, I play Divinity II Ego Draconis before and despite it's being a pretty decent game I just can't get into it, same thing goes to Skyrim but thanks to mods I can spend 1300 hours in it.

So I hope people will know better and not making the same mistake I did by buying a game base on mass user review, should also beware of self-experience knowing whether or not this is your cup of tea, if you ever play this type of hardcore medieval RPG and didn't like it, it's best if you avoid it. However if you never try this type of game this one might be a good place to start.

@shivermetimbers:

Ya the Sole Survivor's story can't provide much agency for us to actually make it entirely our own, but at least the customization is great so it still feel like our character.

@vizard1301:

And it's a good one too, thanks to id Software's help, I generally think Bethesda didn't get enough love from the community, on the internet i mean, they are not perfect sure, but they are still one of the best publisher we got, they made a lots of good game in recent time, last year DOOM was great and they release all DLC as free update, and i heard lots of good thing from the new Quake, Dishonor and Prey, Wolfenstein is one of few last FPS focus on single player game instead of multiplayer.

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#12 Edited by Efesell (4475 posts) -

I mean... I would never say the modern Fallouts ever come close to being a particularly great FPS either. They're interesting hybrids of a shooter with a stat system built in but I was always bummed when I had to rely on the actual shooting instead of VATS.

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#13 Edited by Wolfstein_3D (289 posts) -

@zeik said:

Fallout 4 is barely even an RPG anymore while The Witcher 3 is one of the most RPG-ass-RPGs of recent years. If you like what Fallout does better that's fine, but it's apples and oranges at this point.

Sums it up pretty much. Reads like an elaborate troll to be honest.

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#14 Posted by liquiddragon (3323 posts) -

"the new Witcher fanbase are constantly bashing people with different opinion. Some of them even send death threat to Youtube reviewer for talking bad thing about it's combat, and starting to post fake positive review on Glassdoor after news about CD Projekt Red's working condition problem starting to surface...But that's a story for another day."

You don't have to look that deep to find Fallout fans like those or fans of anything on the internet. I don't understand why you have such a low opinion of Witcher fans. The one thing I can agree with you on is the combat of W3, it's indefensible.

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#15 Posted by mems1224 (2505 posts) -

@efesell: skyrim absolutely has more variety when it comes to combat. Like, that's not even debatable.

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#16 Posted by paulmako (1958 posts) -

Here are my responses, in no particular order:

Falllout 4 is way more popular than some gaming enthusiasts are willing to accept.

I'm a huge Fallout 4 apologist but Witcher 3 is top to bottom a better product, in terms of delivering on what it aims to do.

I think by now I've seen every possible criticism for Fallout 4 and people don't really compare it to Witcher 3. It's mainly to New Vegas.

Because of my preferences, I've had a much better time playing Fallout 4 and have put hundreds of hours into it. You're not alone in enjoying it!

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#17 Posted by OurSin_360 (6158 posts) -

I always forget i even have fallout 4, i think i spent more time installing mods and tuning performance than actually playing the game.

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#18 Edited by NTM (11749 posts) -

I liked Fallout 4 fine, but it, in my opinion, is nowhere near as good as The Witcher 3. The Witcher 3 is the open world (maybe also including fantasy as well) game to be as good or better than from now on to me. The Witcher 3 isn't perfect, but it's in my top three open world games to date, with Red Dead Redemption and the remake (not the original on last-gen) of GTA 5, which allows you to play in the first person. Fallout 4's issues, at least on the PS4, is that it has some bad frame rate issues and the story could have gone into a more interesting direction. I liked that it wasn't as brown as previous Bethesda Fallout's, but it could have still used a little more color and variety in its setting with more interesting side content. I did everything in it, like The Witcher 3.

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#19 Posted by FrodoBaggins (2049 posts) -

I cannot agree with that statement AT ALL. Witcher 3 is in my eyes the tip of the iceberg when it comes to western RPGs. Nothing comes close to achieving what CD Projekt have. Witcher 3's side content feels better and more involved than most rpg main threads.

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#20 Posted by pweidman (2851 posts) -

I certainly played and enjoyed Fallout 4 much more, and I think it's just the combination of the organic nature of the exploration, and searching and fighting, the mods, and especially survival mode.

The Witcher 3 is amazing, a game made with so much care and devotion. Despite that I just don't connect with that world very much, and Geralt especially, despite the incredible detail and tied together story threads by the hundreds. I just don't care about that universe I guess. It's really weird; I totally see why people love it so much, but I lose interest every time I try to go back and progress. Subjectivity, sensibilities, relatable culture...blah, blah, blah. TBH, it bugs me.

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#21 Edited by necronomicon (14 posts) -

I legit had a terrible time with fallout 4. My wife and I rode that hype train way too hard, I expected a sequel to N.V or at least a good story linking to the enclave from 3 and I personally expected some BIG DLC from that game for buying the season pass. It was the last game I ever pre-order, "innovation" is an interesting word, and don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with liking f4, but that base building system was the opposite of innovation. Skyrim introduced a house DLC, and Bethesda fell in love with it. Do you have to build a base to hold a G.E.C.K or something relevant to the story? NOPE, here put a teleporter down and bam game done pretty much! I fucking love fallout, I think it is one of the best storylines to ever grace gaming, but fallout 4!? Gone is any custom ammo from N.V, gone was the entire idea of fighting the enclave in an all out war. No rebel radio, I assumed some form of the resistance would have lived considering it was so close to the placement of fallout 3 . I do not know what the story of fallout 4 was going for, but it is by far the farthest from the fallout series. To me fallout is a story of desperation, about one single character that you make that is your "Geralt" you are the only reasonable person in a world full of idiots. You're needed for a quest to get paint to paint a wall, you are not immune from trivial petty tasks in fallout 4 however I think all those tasks you do have zero effect world wise. I think the big difference is Witcher 3 for me has a sense of "humanization" I slaughtered certain people in that game and comments were made about it down the road. I remember in N.V when I went to join Caesars legion and I learned they give women a hard time, it resulted in me going on a kill campaign against anything that wore those colours. I miss that kind of siding with the fallout 4 game it seems it's quite "ARE THE ROBOTS REALLY BAD!?!?!?!?!?!." Just on a side note, that Robot DLC, Vault DLC, and Nuka DLC(which is by far the best one) holds nothing to the witcher dlc. I felt quite ripped off to be honest with the fallout dlc, again it's my fault I had pipe-dreams for the game. But building that vault, gah what a waste of a DLC.

Also that whole one dude magically solving a "unique strand of F.E.V" made me so angry, I shot him with a mini-nuke in a cave.

Also "he speak like your average uncle Joe"

Did..you meet preston garvey? I placed him into a bed in a room and surrounded him with mines because that dude..is legit "uncle joe" and never shuts the hell up about the same things.

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#22 Edited by Johnny_Sailor (118 posts) -

OP, you’re wrong, but you’re entitled to your opinion. :P

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#23 Posted by Efesell (4475 posts) -

@mems1224 said:

@efesell: skyrim absolutely has more variety when it comes to combat. Like, that's not even debatable.

Madness.

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#24 Posted by ka385385 (57 posts) -

@liquiddragon:

Well here's the story, one of Youtube channel Worth A Buy review Witcher 3 before, and praise most of it's content except it's combat which isn't very good, and a tons of fans went outrage and down voted the review (which cause it's likes to be around 50/50) and spam lots of hate messages to harass him, which he made another video to respond this craziness by review solely on it's combat, basically he states that he can't recommend the game is because of how simple and boring the combat is. the videos has since been took down and my guess is he still receive those kind of messages from time to time so he just remove it to save the trouble. That review did leave some topic trace behind though.

https://www.reddit.com/r/witcher/comments/37010y/this_is_it_worth_a_buy_video/

https://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/496881136899875640/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/36udrg/the_witcher_3_review_worth_a_buy/

And most recently Youtube channel YongYea has been reporting some of CD PROJEKT RED working condition issues base on some job review throughout many years on Glassdoor , which he also got contacted by ex CD Projekt Red developer.

Loading Video...
Loading Video...
Loading Video...

After these news surface, some fans starting to post fake positive review on Glassdoor, it's worth noted that everyone can post review on Glassdoor, but before September 2017 there was only about 30 reviews throughout those years, here's a screen shot i took from YongYea's video.

No Caption Provided

And now go check on the website, you can see just in two months they got a significant boost from people.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/CD-PROJEKT-RED-Reviews-E644250.htm

Why do i think these are fake beside just randomly show up after the news came out? Well because this one particularly stand out

Quote:

I worked at CD PROJEKT RED full-time (Less than a year)

Pros

All I have to say here is that a lot if not all of these reviews below are fake. We often talked to our staff and made sure they are perfectly happy working there. If anything was missing, we'd make sure we had a plan to atleast implement it.

I no longer work there simply because I got too stressed, and I will never work anywhere if it's stressful, even if it is my dream job. I hate stress.

Cons

This website is a con.

End quote.

Do i really need to explain why i think it's fake?

I'm not trying to bash people who like the game and studio too, but mindlessly believe in the studio being some kind of messiah of the industry and harass anyone who disagree? It feel more like a cult rather than fan base, of course not everyone is like that but constantly hearing them shouting thing like "The next Elder Scroll should be more like Witcher 3" or "How dare you insult a character wrote as good as Geralt." can really get under my skin sometime (I did actually hear people say these two lines ,and the later one is a harassment against a female player when she state she would love the game more if she doesn't have to play as Geralt all the time), this is the reason why people like Anita Sarkeesian get their influence in the first place, we are supposed to be better than this.

On the Fallout fan base well...most of thing i heard from our community is mostly complaint about Bethesda being lazy for not polish their game (but as i state before they are actually very understaffed), there aren't much people preaching about the publisher, especially not in recent time with the creation club PR disaster, there are some pretty hardcore fan sure but no one say things like "The next Half-Life 3 should be like Fallout 4" or "Why can't EA be more like Bethesda?" The only spam i can think of is on Youtube someone role play Preston Garvey and keep telling everyone another settlement need our help, which i still think it's very funny to this day.

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#25 Edited by Dray2k (884 posts) -

@efesell: This is false when it comes to Vanilla Skyrim but its absolutely true if you mod Skyrim then it turns into a whole new thing. In fact, never play Skyrim unmodded or else you don't play the game as intended. They intentionally designed Skyrim to be broken so the modders can use it as a canvas to improve the game fully. And they did.

And to be honest, modded Skyrims combat feels way better than in vanilla The Witcher 3 (which is difficult to mod) but it always depends on what mods you're using. I mean Skyrim also has traces of dodge mechanics in it but there were never fully implemented, realized nor activated when the game came out because Beth felt like it would confuse players. Modders then added the feature fully in.

Not only that, the Perk system is vastly more complex than The Witcher 3s, that is, if you mod it faithfully in regards to the actual game. Again never play Skyrim without mods, you miss about 95% of the whole experience (one of the unfortunate circumstances where consolepeople felt left out and for good reason). Even just using USLEEP with CRF adds to the game a lot and it's a mandantory part by everyone who considering modding their Skyrim for the first time, at least those two get my recommendation just to see what a modded Skyrim does compared to the unmodded variant.

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#26 Posted by cornfed40 (614 posts) -

Fallout 4 is barely even a Fallout game at this point. It has more in common with Minecraft than the original CRPG that inspired it.

At a certain point though, fans of the original games really cant use this excuse anymore. When the bulk of a series is 1 thing, that kinda becomes what the series is. There have been 3 Bethesda Fallouts following the same formula, compared to the 2 originals. I mean, there was only 1 less Tactics game than there where Black Isles RPGs in the series. Aliens and Alien 3 are still Alien movies, even if they aren't the same claustrophobic horror movies as the first one was.

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#27 Posted by OurSin_360 (6158 posts) -

@ka385385: I think bethesda fans can be pretty bad too, before witcher 3 there was Skyrim lol. Also i don't think fan quality or even working conditions for the developers makes a game any better or worse. The games stand on their own merit, and i personally don't think fallout 4 is even in the same league as witcher 3 or even skyrim/elder scrolls which it's gameplay loop is based on.

And I don't think those witcher 3 fans represent the majority, I mean by the logic you could easily call all Bethesda fans perverted(seriously had to turn the adult filter on nexus mods for skyrim/fallout lol)

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#28 Posted by mach_go_go_go (207 posts) -

@mach_go_go_go said:

Fallout 4 is barely even a Fallout game at this point. It has more in common with Minecraft than the original CRPG that inspired it.

At a certain point though, fans of the original games really cant use this excuse anymore. When the bulk of a series is 1 thing, that kinda becomes what the series is. There have been 3 Bethesda Fallouts following the same formula, compared to the 2 originals. I mean, there was only 1 less Tactics game than there where Black Isles RPGs in the series. Aliens and Alien 3 are still Alien movies, even if they aren't the same claustrophobic horror movies as the first one was.

I totally understand that. As someone who hasn't seen a full episode of original Star Trek, but has seen almost everything TNG and DS9 ever put out, I probably represent that latter category of fan to a degree. But I think that Bethesda's history of making a very specific type of game, regardless of whatever franchise gets slotted into that template, was too hard a pivot from the original 3 Fallouts for my taste. It would be more like if Alien 3 had been a romantic comedy or Bollywood musical. And I think there are plenty of franchises that have, to a point, strayed so far from the source material that they become unrecognizable to fans:

No Caption Provided

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#29 Edited by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

In a year where I have been told that World of Warcraft is a better game than Destiny and Dota is a better game than XCOM, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by these kinds of comparisons anymore. It is difficult to start a positive Fallout 4 conversation out like this, because any argument you make will turn the reader's head to compare them to Witcher 3's, which isn't comparable therefor the argument falls flat.

I will say this though:

@liquiddragon said:

I don't understand why you have such a low opinion of Witcher fans.

In OP's defense, Witcher 3 fans can be very obnoxious towards other games about their love for the Witcher 3 to the point where they practically replicate OP's approach to discussions. They are comparing W3 to games that have a completely different philosophy and proceed to bash the other game for their philosophy not aligning with W3. While it started out strong, I do not have a lot of love for Fallout 4 but there were a lot of arguments made at the time of F4's release even on this website that kept unreservedly comparing every aspect of it to W3.

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#30 Posted by Efesell (4475 posts) -

@dray2k said:

@efesell: This is false when it comes to Vanilla Skyrim but its absolutely true if you mod Skyrim then it turns into a whole new thing. In fact, never play Skyrim unmodded or else you don't play the game as intended. They intentionally designed Skyrim to be broken so the modders can use it as a canvas to improve the game fully. And they did.

And to be honest, modded Skyrims combat feels way better than in vanilla The Witcher 3 (which is difficult to mod) but it always depends on what mods you're using. I mean Skyrim also has traces of dodge mechanics in it but there were never fully implemented, realized nor activated when the game came out because Beth felt like it would confuse players. Modders then added the feature fully in.

Not only that, the Perk system is vastly more complex than The Witcher 3s, that is, if you mod it faithfully in regards to the actual game. Again never play Skyrim without mods, you miss about 95% of the whole experience (one of the unfortunate circumstances where consolepeople felt left out and for good reason). Even just using USLEEP with CRF adds to the game a lot and is mandantory by everyone playing Skyrim.

My god I actually love Skyrim quite a bit but the phrase "They intentionally designed Skyrim to be broken" is something else.

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#31 Posted by spamfromthecan (129 posts) -

I mean, I liked both games. So I guess I'm just some crazy extraterrestrial that can enjoy two completely different things without comparing them?

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#32 Posted by Dray2k (884 posts) -

@efesell: It is though, as it is with all newish Beth games. Name a Beth game that was polished. Since Arena there hasn't been any TES game that just worked well.

And besides, there isn't anything wrong with that. Without Skyrim to be this broken there wouldn't a community dedicated enough to fix it/adding new and exciting stuff. The game being as it is was the point where millions of people came together to discuss, mod and enjoy the game "fully realized". It is ever ongoing process.

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#33 Edited by spamfromthecan (129 posts) -

@dray2k said:

And besides, there isn't anything wrong with that. Without Skyrim to be this broken there wouldn't a community dedicated enough to fix it/adding new and exciting stuff. The game being as it is was the point where millions of people came together to discuss, mod and enjoy the game "fully realized". It is ever ongoing process.

I disagree with this. The game isn't "broken", it has "issues", but its not broken. I never use mods for any Bethesda games. I play them all plain/vanilla. And I still enjoy them for what they are. I would also argue that a very large portion of the player base does too. I put 200+ hours into Skyrim when it launched on PS3. Then played it later on PC, and still never used any mods. And I have it again on PS4, and although I haven't played it. I can't see myself using any of the mods they offer for it.

And in your previous post saying, "never play Skyrim unmodded or else you don't play the game as intended.", that is some crazy nonsense. It was intended to play vanilla, as it was released. As is every game. Hence it was released that way. That comment, and your argument make no sense to me.

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#34 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@dray2k said:

And besides, there isn't anything wrong with that. Without Skyrim to be this broken there wouldn't a community dedicated enough to fix it/adding new and exciting stuff. The game being as it is was the point where millions of people came together to discuss, mod and enjoy the game "fully realized". It is ever ongoing process.

I disagree with this. The game isn't "broken", it has "issues", but its not broken. I never use mods for any Bethesda games. I play them all plain/vanilla. And I still enjoy them for what they are. I would also argue that a very large portion of the player base does too. I put 200+ hours into Skyrim when it launched on PS3. Then played it later on PC, and still never used any mods. And I have it again on PS4, and although I haven't played it. I can't see myself using any of the mods they offer for it.

And in your previous post saying, "never play Skyrim unmodded or else you don't play the game as intended.", that is some crazy nonsense. It was intended to play vanilla, as it was released. As is every game. Hence it was released that way. That comment, and your argument make no sense to me.

I mod my Skyrim experience nowadays, but I agree with everything you said. The claim that Skyrim was designed to be broken is a statement that needs a credible source to back it up. Otherwise, it is just speculation and not a tiny shed more than that.

I play a lot of XCOM and certain people make the same claims in relation to its Long War mod counterpart. 'How can Firaxis release this game so underdeveloped when the Long War mod team adds so much? It's a disgrace'. It is a very poor argument to make since if you have any experience modding, you quickly realize the combined effort of all modders rests entirely on the architecture already in place by the actual dev team. Long War adds, maybe, 2% of actual lines of code to the game and practically none of the design work. On top of that, most people will fall off Long War long before they will finish it.

Skyrim vanilla is played and enjoyed by many more people than modded Skyrim is. You think that the mods you use make the experience superior. As someone who mods my game, yes, it does... for me. You cannot create a game with the intention of appealing to a thousand people. You need to appeal to millions. If you think everyone will enjoy Skyrim the way you're playing it, you're just unable to distinguish your preferences from those of other people.

I know for a fact that the proposed Cutting Room Floor mod is an atrocious piece of mod content. They literally add in cut content that on several occasions is way too obvious why it was cut. The user in question doesn't realize he is part of niche group, and possibly the 1% within that group to boot. The error in the assumption that Skyrim is designed to be broken is that it assumes Skyrim is designed for you. It isn't. It's designed for hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. And all the work people have ever done on Skyrim mods since that game launched up to today pales in comparison to the actual work done by Bethesda on vanilla alone.

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#35 Edited by Dray2k (884 posts) -

@spamfromthecan: Uh oh, I can't even imagine going into the game vanilla at the point. Even before the modding tools were released I began to mod it after I've beaten Alduin and I remember that it wasn't really all that good (though the vanilla game world has some great details, it certainly did a lot of good things when it comes to open world gameplay, also the music is fantastic)

Anyway, I recommend that you should try the game modded. Its a whole different game and to the very least I consider it better in all aspects.

At any case, I wanted to make the point that without the game being as it is, there wouldn't be such a gigantic community adding a whole plethora of good things. The best thing Skyrim did was bringing communities together in lots of positive ways so who cares about the game being playable unmodded or not. Its popularity certainly got boosted by modding.

Maybe I'm going to check out the Special Edition unmodded at some point just to see if vanilla Skyrim is actually playable. I think it is shameful for Beth to intentionally causing a stir by using the modded community as a sort of a money sink in such bad faith, that was a big mistake on their regard. Beths reputation as game creators is certainly very damaged by now.

@spamfromthecan said:

I mean, I liked both games. So I guess I'm just some crazy extraterrestrial that can enjoy two completely different things without comparing them?

Nah, this just means you can enjoy things on their respective merits and flaws :)!

@zevvion: I agree, all I wrote was just speculation based on observation. It's just that the modding community really blew up and some of the mods were downloaded tens of millions of times, if the game would be perfect surely such a thing wouldn't be the case.

Also CRF is just something I add to my Skyrim, I didn't want to imply that it is something everyone does use (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense either way). Its just something I feel is essential but whether or not it is for you is a statement towards the beauty of modding. You can basically make your own perfect dream RPG.

I think I'm going to rewrite that part so its less confusing, thanks for pointing that one out duder. Also sorry for kinda derailing the thread so if everyone has questions or want to discuss things further, hit me up with a PM and I will respond as good as I can.

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#36 Posted by Ungodly (446 posts) -

It's all subjective, man. I think Witcher 3 has a better narrative, but Fallout 4 is more fun to play. I'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong for having a different opinion, because I don't really care enough to do so.

I enjoyed both games a lot, either way. Witcher fans can be obnoxious though. I don't think anyone can start a Dragon Age discussion, without someone claiming that everyone should stop and play a Witcher game instead.

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#37 Posted by geirr (3759 posts) -

I'm a dog and I got baited.

Also I didn't like Witcher 3 at all and I loved Fallout 4, HOWEVER I still think Witcher 3 is the better game.
Figure that one out.

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#38 Posted by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@dray2k: I understand why you like to use mods that others may not like. For instance, I think it's pointless to play any of these types of games, Skyrim, Fallout, whichever, without hardcore mode turned on and fast travel turned off. But then, likely most people would disagree with me on that. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, neither are you. But the wording used seemed strong.

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#39 Edited by RonGalaxy (4936 posts) -

They are very different games. Witcher 3 is more comparable to modern bioware games than they are with Bethesda. The only similarity is that theyre both open world fantasy RPGs, which is a much broader comparison than it sounds. Either way, Witcher 3 is the better of the 2. Fallout 4 is Bethesda showing they havent listened to any fan feedback and are fine with doubling down on the shittier aspects of their games.

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#40 Posted by FlashFlood_29 (4414 posts) -
@ka385385 said:

I think Fallout 4 is better than Witcher 3 because Fallout 4 no longer being just an RPG, it actually try to innovate, even if something doesn't work quiet as well at the end, it was walking toward the right direction, while Witcher 3 did it best to polish the old formula (Fun fact, Witcher 3 was actually trying to include a location damage system similar as Fallout, but was scratch before release).

So you value a game trying something that doesn't end up working well, over a game that you yourself say has polished mechanics. You also feel it's valid to critique a game based on a bad mechanic that's not even in the game. Even if these don't hold true to you, presenting them to your readers is not a point in favor for your arguments. Stopped reading after that quote in your OP because that has to be one of the silliest fallacious "critiques," I've read in a long while. (not quite sure if I'm using 'fallacious,' correctly, there)

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#41 Edited by Onemanarmyy (4313 posts) -

This is a real rollercoaster of an openingpost. As someone that also wants ham in his hamburger, i would've liked it if Fallout 4 was an RPG and not a coloringbook where all the lines have been drawn already. Especially if you liked New Vegas, it's surprising that the removal of choices doesn't bother you.

Popularity and longevity of games also don't say much about how good a game is. A narrative game with a start and an end can be amazing, but probably won't be played as much as any MMO. I'm not playing Hollow Knight anymore, but i do like that game a lot.

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#42 Posted by Veektarius (6409 posts) -

Like taking the ham out of a hamburger? You might want to focus test that expression a little bit more.

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#43 Posted by FacelessVixen (2577 posts) -

If I want to play a game with an emphasis on story and characters in a dark fantasy setting, I'll play Witcher. If I just want to play around in some sort of sandbox time-sink and go on miscellaneous adventures, I'll play Fallout 4 or Skyrim.

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#44 Posted by Dray2k (884 posts) -

@zevvion: It also depends on what angle you're coming from.

Personally, I don't play skyrim without at least 70 gb of essential mods added to the game. However, essential can mean anything to everyone, we're talking about modding after all :)!

Also I 100% agree with you on the thing that we're both correct, modding isn't just something where you follow the same guides for mods all the time. However, at least with Skyrim (and Skyrim modding) to the very least people do learn how to clean and fix compatibility issues and its also a great start to learn the basis of Skyrims in and outs (and even some programming).

I think it doesn't get any better than modding Skyrim, you really can turn the game inside out, even in parts create something wholly new again. I was about to create a guide for modding Skyrim at some point, like a fully fleshed out guide where I use some mods I'm using to give people a basis on how to learn it. The only requirement would be a SSD or even a m2, unfortunately a stable Skyrim comes with a major cost and thats loading times.

I wish The Witcher 3 would have the same modding capabilities and its unfortunate that the engine ain't made for that, and thats a huge shame.

Also since you know modding I'm sure you know about 3dNPCs. If you even enjoyed The Witcher 3 chracter depth a little bit, you should go ahead and check it out. Fixes a whole lot of issues people had with Skyrim.

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#45 Posted by Efesell (4475 posts) -

Yeah I don't go in for extensive modding like that at all. Interface tweaks and bug fixes at most usually.

The idea of like far more than the original games size in mods is just like.... what game am I even playing now and why.

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#46 Posted by Qrowdyy (366 posts) -

This seems like a typical case of not understanding that your 'favorite thing' doesn't have to be the 'best thing.'

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#47 Edited by ka385385 (57 posts) -

@oursin_360:

That was my reply to @liquiddragon why i have such a low opinion of Witcher fans, you can criticize Bethesda fan too, but they never went to harass people or fanboying like that.

And no i did not lower my opinion on the game because of it's fan quality, it's two separate things. But working condition on the other hand, well I don't know about you, but i would rather enjoying my game more knowing that the game didn't made base on developer's torment.

@rongalaxy:

Why? I think Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3, it did a lots of thing New Vegas previously did like companions have their own background story now and you can actually chose which faction you want to side with, and weapon modification is even better than New Vegas.

@veektarius:

I was thinking about using words like "chocolate moose without chocolate" or "milkless ice cream"..."Toyless Happy Meal?"

I'm not really good with that, so i think hamless hamburger will do...

@flashflood_29 said:

So you value a game trying something that doesn't end up working well, over a game that you yourself say has polished mechanics. You also feel it's valid to critique a game based on a bad mechanic that's not even in the game. Even if these don't hold true to you, presenting them to your readers is not a point in favor for your arguments. Stopped reading after that quote in your OP because that has to be one of the silliest fallacious "critiques," I've read in a long while. (not quite sure if I'm using 'fallacious,' correctly, there)

Yes i do appreciate innovation more when it comes to video games (and movies too, i like Star Wars prequel more than that Force Awaken New Hope 2.0), just look at all the hate Call of Duty get (well at least before Advanced Warfare), people been anxious about Call of Duty being the same thing over and over again, and when they finally bring something new to the table, people complaint too, but at least they tried and some people actually enjoy it, when i said Witcher 3 has polished mechanics i was talking about it's narrative and outdated old school RPG element, not it's combat and other things. Witcher 3 has a simplify hack and slash combat mechanic which kinda like old school menubase or turnbase combat, it's not really engaging, and meditate to refill potion is a little bit of annoying sometime.

Fallout 4's innovation is far greater in the end because they did more right than wrong (I know hardcore RPG fan will disagree, but the game is fun which I think is good enough), the new Power Armor system, weapon modification, Settlement system, companions story, FPS gunplay, you name it, while Witcher didn't bring much new stuff on the table, and there isn't another game like Fallout in anywhere, but there are always another game like Witcher or Dragon Age, that's why i think Fallout is better.

Oh and about that Witcher 3 fun fact, that was just fun fact...i didn't consider it into anything just think it's interesting to point it out.

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#48 Posted by rubberluffy (788 posts) -

Fallout 4 is mediocre, maybe even just straight up bad.

However while I'm not super on TW3's "GOAT" bandwagon (I really like it, but I don't love it), it is actively better than F4 in nearly every way.

New Vegas is great tho.

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#49 Posted by ka385385 (57 posts) -

@qrowdyy:

I have no problem with people who prefer Witcher 3 more than Fallout 4, both are great but I just feel like someone need to make a statement for the silent majority. I just want to provide a little bit of diversity of thoughts which I think is most needed in recent time.

Maybe you didn't read the post i wrote, but i don't really blame you, it was kind of like what you said which draw me into this in the first place, when DICE and BAFTA gave Fallout 4 GOTY award lots of Witcher fan freak out and whine all the way despite Witcher 3 has won lots of other game awards.

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#50 Posted by OurSin_360 (6158 posts) -

@ka385385: well i look at it like this, the people who made the game even if they were treated poorly or underpayed, still put time and work in and the game was good. I honestly don't kniw much about what's going on at that studio. But regardless the people who worked on the game made a good product, to deny that is a discredit to them imo.