Commentary on GB Hiring

Uh, I'm lost here. Can someone explain to me what happened? Because I'm REALLY confused.

I can't account for Twitter, since that's a different monster, but a lot of people here have been trying to keep a honest and worthwhile discussion going (or starting, depending on your perspective). And I don't think we can hold that opinion against Leigh; can you imagine how much crap she has to go through on social media every day?

Calling out people for "racism/feminism bullshit" when people obviously have strong opinions on those matters is not helping anyone in this thread. Be civil.

@ford_dent: I understand their position and situation, but I also understand that some people just wanted to defend Giant Bomb's decision because they enjoyed the two new additions, and they weren't all harassing or being mean to her. I'd be hurt too if I was told to fuck off based on that tweet, even if she has good reason to be angry at the situation.

The whole brouhaha baffles me. Dan Ryckert is awesome and I think will be a perfect fit. I don't have past experience with Jason but I'm sure the same is true for him.

And it seems to me no one has any problem with Dan and Jason at all. Nor do they seem to be inclined to offer names of applicants who would have been a better choice. It's all hypothetical angry noises. If you can provide the name of an applicant who is more qualified and, in your opinion, could have been a superior choice for the position in question, I will gladly hear you out. Otherwise, there's no argument. If you can't supply an example of an applicant who you think was passed over, all you are doing is fighting for affirmative action, which is horrible.

@rorie: I am generally in agreement, but won't mess with it on this site anymore! Thanks for all you do Rorie, I hope the GB staff can understand how much I care and that I'm not ever trying to come across as a butthole or anything. You all mean a lot to me.

on-topic: when are you hiring that jeff green guy

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE DEATH AND RAPE THREATS

Why isn't there a bigger font I can put that in?

Well, for one thing, it's a completely nonsensical statement. Dan and Jason being a part of the GB community does not make them immune to "racism/feminism bullshit". I'm not even sure what you're trying to suggest or imply with your statement. The fact that this conversation is occurring here and now is proof enough that such topics are discussed on Giant Bomb.

For another, calling it "racism/feminism bullshit" is a demonstration of ignorance all on its own.

I think you misunderstand the situation. It's not two groups. It's three, or hell probably more like 4.

1.) People saying Giant Bomb is staffed (almost?) exclusively by white men and that is indicative of a lack of diveristy of race/gender/sexual orientation/ect. (sorry but your race/gender/ect. do not dictate your opinions)

2.) People who feel giant bomb should hire whoever is best qualified and fits the best personality-wise (which is what giantbomb did) regardless of gender/race/ect.

3.) People who got bitter and angry and made hostile remarks about giantbomb and made terrible accusations of the staff and community unprompted on twitter.

4.) People who got extremely defensive, hostile and angry at group 3 and sent them horrible messages and threats and such.

Groups 1 & 2 are completely reasonable for the most part, they may disagree but thats fine they're allowed to. Most of the discussion (that hasn't been modded away) in the various threads here on giantbomb are made by these two groups, theres nothing wrong with that. Lumping groups 1 and 3 together and groups 2 and 4 together just makes everyone seem like assholes when thats not the case.

Saying "you disagree with me, you're part of the problem you should leave!" is not helpful to anyone and only stirs more hostility. Demonizing one side of the argument isn't helping either.

Groups 3 and 4 suck. Groups 1 and 2 are for the most part reasonable with different opinions and perspectives.

@trafalgarlaw:

"Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor and in Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in problem-solving devised by William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347). It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

The application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion.[a] The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers also point out that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced."

Absent proof or even the faintest reason *why* a bunch of people from other sites who don't like or care about GB might masquerade as GB community members to harass this one person who criticised GB a little bit, going 'oh it's not REALLY members of our community defending our site's honour by heaping abuse on somebody, it's these other guys blah blah false flag' is dumb and it's muuuuch more likely that your community is really is toxic (to women and minorities). And reading this thread kinda bears that out, tbqh!

@oxe: Polygon took the hard road and look where it got them. Giant Bomb is going to take risks on hires when they'll have the wiggle room to do so. They already did when they hired patrick and they'll do it again. Now is just the worst time for that.

@ford_dent: I'm not religious, but amen.

GB hired Dan and Jason. This disappointed people, including some fairly high-profile women in games journalism, due to D&J being white males. They make criticism. Internet backlashes hard. It all blows up.

I've stayed out of it for the most part. I think the whole thing reeks.

I will say thank you to the GB staff for how they're handling this so far.

While I sort of agree that the initial criticisms were off base, they are understandable and do speak to one of the biggest problems in the games industry. Patrick recently shared an article from Joystiq covering a survey showing that only 22% of the industry is female (link: joystiq).That's a big problem and if that got fixed, a whole host of other issues or representation and objectification in the business would be fixed as a result. The way you fix that is easy: hire a wider range of diverse people. And that's not a "check box" option; there are other talented people than just straight white dudes. Give 'em a shot!

However, hurling all of this at Giant Bomb is to much. They don't deserve this kind of heat. It's a website with 9 people, and that's after the new hires. Way too much pressure. Polygon has 24 positions and only 6 are female. That's still a crummy ratio and I don't remember too much outcry about that. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, I don't know.

But maybe this response is actually sort of a good thing. Maybe it means GB has a way bigger reach than any of us–including the staff–truly realized. That's not a bad position to be in, just a crummy situation. Just for fuck's sake, keep it civil, community. And let's all be more diligent about keeping our community of duders something to be proud of instead of shaking our heads and saying, "Well, the Internet is the Internet".

Here's to bigger and better things moving forward.

@hoodcommando: Samantha Allen's tweet was completely unacceptable but I understand the emotions at the time. Still, an apology would have helped that specific situation. While I disagree with the general belief that GB should have hired someone of a different race or gender to make things "interesting", I really really despise the treatment of people who espouse those views. Threats, curses, etc. towards Leigh and Samantha is despicable and helps nothing. I believe that the people doing this are either from different sites and/or are an extreme minority of the GB community. There are real jerks everyone on the internet, just check out Yahoo News comments.

A big thanks to Rorie and the moderator crew. I see terrible things posted now and then, but it's a pretty tame and a rarity compared to what we've seen on twitter and Reddit.

That one Reddit thread really baffled me for how much people use the "SJW" term with regularity and without irony (and get upvoted for it). We've got a long way to go.

I like this stuff because it's a fun dramatic diversion from all of my problems in real life. As a 30-something white guy, I understand that I am almost universally hated by everybody, but I've got some major things going on right now. I need to find a job ASAP. I need to convince my grandma to go to the hospital and get an MRI because those voices she's hearing aren't real. My small family is suddenly half the size it was a year ago and I haven't really let myself grieve over it yet.

So when I get a chance to watch a bunch of strangers whose biggest problems in life are convincing other strangers on the internet that they're right about whatever moral issue they want to be right about, there's little chance that I'm not going to have fun with it.

All of that being said, I don't see any reason to think that the people at Giant Bomb did anything wrong here, and I am really uncomfortable at the notion that there are people trying to drag them under the bus professionally. I understand that it's not going to have consequences, and will ultimately be forgotten about within a few days like every other internet conflict. But still, I think there's a line that shouldn't be crossed when a bunch of kids on the internet want to yell at each other.

@hoodcommando: Sure, it can hurt to get that kind of a response--but the time and place for a debate was not right, and a debate is precisely what those defenders were looking for. Realize that there's a time and a place, understand that the reply is coming from a place of legitimate hurt and anger, forgive, move on. Don't escalate the situation! This is a general guideline for being a decent human being on the internet. Hurt feelings don't happen if the debate is held at the right time (well, maybe they still do, but it's not liable to devolve as quickly as it did).

I appreciate this post! I read the whole thing! I am now quoting it to help emphasize this is a post I enjoy!

Let us try and swim upstream of the hetero-normative culture together!

@itwongo: Uh, what?

WHY? I'm even more confused now.

I think this argument kind of falls on it's face. If the entire point is to get fresh faces and new perspectives, then ideallyno one would know who they are yet or be able to name them. If they had actually taken applications from the community like it seemed like they were going to do before going the Rolodex route with it, then they would have been relative unknowns, not people that were already well known or "famous" in the already present game industry.

What I wanted from this was for them to introduce to me someone completelynew who would provide a fresh perspective and voice on on things. I don't give a damn about race or gender, but there are definitely genres at Giant Bomb that aren't being covered, there are people out there who no one knows, there are risks to be taken with a fresh view that might not actually just agree happily with everything the rest of the staff says.

I don't care if they are white, black, asian, latino, male, female whatever. I do care they just hired another dude who just likes fighting games which two staffers already like and it opens zero doors for new genres to be covered.

@trafalgarlaw: the giant bomb crew has never shown any interest in interacting with their site's community on the forums. Jeff makes himself pretty open to questions on his tumblr and jar time though.

@freewriter55: I agree wholeheartedly. Not that it was a bad hiring decision, but it was the safe, boring decision. Certainly Patrick, being the intelligent and socially conscious guy he is, was aware of this missed opportunity. Not saying that he has the power to affect hiring decisions.

I'm torn. On the one hand, I find Samantha Allen's tweet so heartbreaking: "...I'm through believing in 'good guys'." She is clearly very hurt, and this hurt only arises from a betrayal of trust. Clearly she held GB in high regard. Only to find out that GB is part of "The Man". On the other hand, it's embarrassingly immature. That said, I don't want Dan or Jason to feel unwelcome in their now roles. I'm sure they will be a great addition to the site. The ideal scenario I suppose would be to hire some fresh perspectives in a second round of hiring sometime soon.

But this is all a smokescreen, guys. The real deal is now Vinny, Alex, and Robyn at GBeast! The true Giant Bomb starts here.

@zomgfruitbunnies: I thought the same thing at first... then I realized: I'm probably better off not knowing.

Back to ignoring the forums!

I don't understand, what made that the wrong time to have the debate? When else would that debate even exist in the first place, if not immediately after the two white men were hired and someone criticized that fact?

I agree, the sexist and rude comments were terrible. But it's not all black and white, there are more than two sides to this story.

LMAO you're counting Air Force Gator 1 and 2 amongst those 4 books man come on now

In any company, you hire people with experience. It wouldn't have made sense to hire someone as a senior editor or someone who could do video from the community unless they had a lot of experience. Also the point of this site isn't do get new up and comers, it's to basically have a group of friends play games together and then tape their dumb antics. Hiring people that are unknown to the crew would probably end up being a big mistake; it would have ruined the dynamic between personalities and could potentially destroy the sites appeal.

She did kind of apologize here and Patrick apologized for all the hate she was getting, despite them both knowing they'd get responses like this:

God bless people like Patrick, Zoe Quinn, Leigh Alexander, Caroline Petite, and so many others that dare piss off these hordes of shitlords. I can't imagine getting daily doses of this.

Does anybody remember laughter? Video games, guys. Video games.

@sethshandor: I'm more interested in the how it even started. Literally blowing my mind.

Again, we are not here to provide you with "proof." We could list a host of names (and previous commenters have!) and someone would still give another reason why this or that person wouldn't work. We would keep reaching for those brass rings of "sufficient proof," and every time there would be a "but..." We do not owe you the burden of proof.

And again, in the hypothetical scenario where no applicants were minorities or women, it's up to Giant Bomb to figure out what kind of environment they are fostering have that causes that.

The link didn't work, but I found this on the Tumblr account's homepage in the FAQ section.

9) You hate men.

Correction: I am wary of men. I hope you can understand why. Take a look at my inbox the next time I write something provocative. Or just, you know, look at a whole entire world dominated by men who profit from and exchange women as objects. Can you blame me? If I were a rabbit, I’d be scared of wolves.

As I see it the problem was lots of people who jumped to GBs "Defense" wanted to make this an issue about Giant Bomb specifically. Yes the critics were pointing at the hiring decision as something they didn't agree with, but it was meant to be taken within the context of an industry that is woefully homogeneous and even though Dan and Jason are well qualified and I'm sure they'll do great, it's still kind of disappointing to see another chance at getting some more diverse voices added going to people who largely come from a similar background as other game journalists. They were critiquing the industry as a whole, this whole situation just happened to be the most recent example that they could bring attention to. My sympathies go out to the GB crew and to their critics, because this whole thing got out of hand very fast and we lost the chance to have what could have been a positive debate about diversity in video game journalism.

*points frantically at self*

There were some constructive comments on both sides, but the severe negative comments towards those two individuals greatly outweighs everything else. The one thing I learned from this is something that I already knew, to stay off of social media.

You're right. People don't learn from mistakes, and risks are never worth taking. Good thing they never hired that Patrick guy. We ALL know that would have turned out horrible.

Group 2 is sort of irrelevant, which is why I didn't mention them. Group 2's opinion basically boils down to "well I don't have a problem with it," and that group largely ignored the topic or came here to post their opinion on it so that like-minded people could agree with them. As for group 3, I'm ready for people to start linking to this flood of horrible attacks to Giant Bomb. I'm looking right now and I am not seeing this unending torrent of messages.

Dan's a great fit. He was on almost all of the wrestling podcasts. We needed another guy on staff that knows wrestling! ALso seems charismatic enough.

Dunno the other guy.

That said, who gives a shit that they hired white men? There's no discrimination going on; it's just that white men tend to be industry veterans, as women/minorities are just coming into the field.

GS has a gay dude and a woman, so unless Jeff posts that he hates women/minorities, then there's nothing wrong here.

@octaslash: Didn't see that. Still would prefer a real and heartfelt apology but it's not easy to do at the moment. Even though I disagree with Patrick on many things the hateful comments towards him are terrible. Get off of twitter people, it's no good!

Another day. Another incident on the internet that makes me wonder that if the largest communication and information sharing network in human history were to disappear tomorrow would it really be such a terrible thing?

Of course it would. To lose so many wonderful experiences and meet so many wonderful people, to lose that would be disastrous but lately the positives are slowly being consumed by a wave of cynicism and hatred that effortlessly smothers all attempts to enjoy, discuss or celebrate anything. That people would rather give in to the simplest emotional response to something they disagree with or dislike and hurl abusive language, threats and insults at one another rather than talk about it whilst dragging everyone else down with them is extremely disheartening to see.

Hatred is a petty response to all but the most insignificant of problems. Hatred is what children feel towards vegetables, not what adults feel towards complex and important issues.

Sorry for waxing lyrical I just has to get that out. Thank to @rorie for his incredible patience.

I'm trying to understand what this huge difference would be. Are you trying to say their tastes in video games would different because I think they already got that covered. I don't think you realize how condescending it is to reduce the new staff members to "the two new white dudes" or "good enough". Video game websites aren't exactly doing good, they close all the time. To suggest that its only the small percentage of women writers being denied is silly.They could start a blog or a youtube channel, if you want to talk about games, it's never been easier. Giant Bomb is not under any obligation to fight for you own perceived cause, that maybe, everyone doesn't agree with.

You see an industry of "sameness" that Giant Bomb must do the right thing for the noble cause. I see an Industry that the ESA says is 50% female players, they just don't normally like the types of games the video game press covers. You seem to think this is a problem that has to be fixed, I just see people not liking the same things. You think men and women have these huge differences in life experiances, why is it so hard to believe maybe they like different games.

@octaslash: That was sarcasm, not any sort of "apology"

WHAT DO YOU KNOW? TELL ME ABOUT THE NUMBERS!

People are so goddamn reactionary and accusatory it's crazy.

You don't know who applied, you don't know who was more qualified, you don't know who was offered the job first and who turned it down, you don't know anything.

Yet people are upset because it's two white guys? Would you rather them just randomly hire somebody because they weren't white guys? They can't hire white guys any more because there are too many white guys in the industry?

I mean, who can make a list of people who Giant Bomb actually turned down? Or even a list of how many people applied, their demographics, or even who got offered jobs and turned them down? Would you really want them to go out of their way to hire somebody based off sex, race, or nationality, rather than who's most qualified? Shit even that lady who started the troll fest said she didn't apply.

*comment made by random black guy*

That's not what I mean. Of course risks are sometimes worth taking. However, they had two spots to fill and had two great individuals able to take those spots. It wouldn't make sense to pass that up. When you have a perfect fit, take it!

I think being disappointed that you weren't hired is a perfectly valid response. So is being disappointed that your friend wasn't. It's okay to be disappointed that a woman or minority wasn't one of the hires. Unfortunately, some of the people upset with this fact acted immature, unprofessional, and downright disrespectful towards Dan and Jason in the way that they conducted themselves. Some might argue that it's perfectly reasonable for them to act that way because of the way they've been treated in the past, but the problem with that is that it wasn't anyone on staff at Giant Bomb who treated them badly. Giant Bomb doesn't deserve that treatment just because they may have been treated bad before.

People seemed to relish in the idea that Giant Bomb was some evil entity, and they were fighting the good fight, albeit losing. I feel it's fair to disagree with those people, and perfectly valid to criticise their own critiques of Giant Bomb. I strongly disagree with other people using slurs and threatening them. If I didn't like some of former telling people to f- off when asked valid questions, then I certainly don't like the extremes their attackers have gone to.

Regarding the actual hiring process, it looks like Giant Bomb was looking for two people for two specific jobs in San Francisco: a senior editor to be in front of the camera (or the voice behind the Quick Look); and someone behind the camera to help Drew out, now that Vinny has moved to New York. I don't know how much of a personality they were looking for in the latter, but it's clear that their ability behind the camera is essential to that position. I haven't seen a single detractor to this hiring process speak up about that specific job, so I don't think they were ever in a position to fill that role. That leaves one senior editor position. It's not simply about how well they write or what podcasts they've been on, but various things that Giant Bomb was looking for in a new hire. I feel they would be the best judge on who was the best qualified applicant, and not someone on twitter who's already made up their mind that Giant Bomb made a bad decision.

Could Giant Bomb use some more diversity? Sure. However, just because the two new hires were white men, and I'm Mexican, doesn't mean I'm upset that none of them are the same race as me, or that now I have to seek out a web site or podcast that speak to me as a Latino.

The Last of Us: 3/5 stars.