Conversations - List or Wheel? What's your Preference and Why?

I thought of me as a 'Conversation Wheel' man for the longest time. Being a Mass Effect fan and enjoying Bioware's trademark convo-wheel as much as I do. I think the best iteration of the wheel type mechanic is to be found in Alpha Protocol - since it adds an aspect of pressure to it, by making every decision time sensitive. Nonetheless, it's more suited for decision making than organic conversation.
 
I'm currently playing Kingdoms of Amalur : Reckoning, which features the classic expansive and expanding list of talking points - reminiscent of Oblivion and other games before that (it also has a rudimentary convo-wheel for decisive moments). The expansive and expanding list mechanic seems unwieldy at first, but it allows for a much more organic flow of conversation - at least if I invest into it and pick my talking points according to what naturally comes up in conversation. It's much better suited for roleplaying a regular conversation. Amalur's presentation isn't even that well-made with its silent protagonist and wooden animations, as well as frequently redundant lines when it comes to quest goals - but when I'm truely just engaging in a conversation and pick my talking points naturally, as they come up - the conversational flow feels so much more real and lifelike and much less scripted.
 
I am for a broad return of the expansive and expanding conversation list in RPGs. Just imagine how awesome it could be, if executed perfectly.

Wheel, cause it fucking looks badass.

I want the game to roll a die based on my character's charisma level and then give me a list of awkward answers based on my aptitude for speech craft.

Does it really make a difference?

List with number key shortcuts.

Also, why did you post after you made the poll? o_O

I can't vote, because it doesn't make a difference to me. It's whether the choices matter or not that I find interesting.

best I can think of is Indigo Prophecy/Heavy rain style dialogue. you have a limited time,and limited answers, so you choose fast and well.

The array doesn't matter in the slightest. The wheel only came about because picking from a vertical list on a controller sucks. It's really comes down to how well the short description fits the tone and intent of the actual line once it's said. Since ones in a list generally have the whole line of speech written out (because it'll actually fit on screen this way) I guess I'll have to choose that.
 
But in games that list a bunch of words or phrases you might have heard (talking points), and don't have any lines of dialog associated to picking them from the list (like older Elder Scrolls), I'd rather just not engage in any conversation at all. That's lazy writing and boring to the player.

its really difficult for me to care either way.

i'm indifferent you might say.

it something i've never really thought about until now and even after spending 4 minuets thinking about it i still don't have a concrete answer for you and perhaps never will.

The array doesn't matter in the slightest. The wheel only came about because picking from a vertical list on a controller sucks. It's really comes down to how well the short description fits the tone and intent of the actual line once it's said. Since ones in a list generally have the whole line of speech written out (because it'll actually fit on screen this way) I guess I'll have to choose that.  But in games that list a bunch of words or phrases you might have heard (talking points), and don't have any lines of dialog associated to picking them from the list (like older Elder Scrolls), I'd rather just not engage in any conversation at all. That's lazy writing and boring to the player.

Proper dialogue TREES. (Fallout 1, 2, BG series, Planescape, etc...) With branching options, choices, avenues of questioning, different outcomes, indepth sentences from both parties.

Not a wheel or a list.

Amalur "converation" feels artificial as shit: take quest + blatant list of useless exposition monologues. Just UGH. Worst ever.

I want the game to roll a die based on my character's charisma level and then give me a list of awkward answers based on my aptitude for speech craft.

I like wheel because is the 'new' ish, but usually with the wheel you only get 6 options, where as with a list you can have as many as you like, but then if you have too many it means theres options under the fold you don't see right away.

Wheel. It feels snappier.

Tree

alpha protocol had a really good convo system... i really want to see more games copy it.

@Galiant said:

I can't vote, because it doesn't make a difference to me. It's whether the choices matter or not that I find interesting.

@h0lgr said:

Wheel, cause it fucking looks badass.

depends i dont mind if you can scroll through the list but if you have to click every time to move it then id say wheel

Give me a wheel with some unfolding menus (the Investigate option in Mass Effect) over a list.  Putting everything in a Goddamn list is really making me not want to talk to people in Amalur.  It scrolls so fucking slow, and you can't even go up at the top to wind up at the bottom.
 
If not a wheel, give me button presses that correspond to a selection (Alpha Protocol and Deus Ex did this). 
 
@Tennmuerti: This about presentation, not construction.  You can put a dialogue tree into a wheel or a list (all those games you used as examples used lists).
 
Only part I dislike about dialogue trees are if it allows you to loop.  Or if you have to loop back through stuff you've already heard in order to ask a different question and branch off somewhere else.  Trees should be constructed so that anything worth hearing gets shared.

List, the wheel seems to force developers to attempt to summarize the actual line, and I've had a few cases where I hit something and my character says something I find completely different.

List, like in Dragon Age Origins.
 
I like seeing everything that's going to be said. I don't remember if Deus Ex listed everything Denton says, but that was OK too.

Wheel and List are pretty much the same thing. With the wheel being newer and easier to control. So I go with wheel.

Proper dialogue TREES. (Fallout 1, 2, BG series, Planescape, etc...) With branching options, choices, avenues of questioning, different outcomes, indepth sentences from both parties.

Not a wheel or a list.

Amalur "converation" feels artificial as shit: take quest + blatant list of useless exposition monologues. Just UGH. Worst ever.

I guess wheel is more convenient, but Bioware doesn't make very good use of it. Upper right for Paragon, left right for Renegade.

Wheel for gamepads, list for keyboard.

List. I hate how dumbed down game choices are when they use the wheel, and how it limits the way they can progress a story. When they are forced to use a wheel the game just boils down to the same stupid story with slight dialogue variants to make it seem goodie goodie, snarky dumb ass, and douche bag. I never feel like my choices mean anything when it's the wheel because you just decide from the get go what kind of character you want to play and you stick to picking the same spot every time because you are playing the good/bad guy. Compare that to the list in something like Dragon Age where I have literally spent a good 5-10 min trying to decide what option to pick because the game was able to have its story designed around everything having good/bad in every choice it feels like I'm playing a dumbed down game whenever an RPG uses a wheel.

When I play an RPG I want to make my character, my back story and feel like I'm making choices that fit my character. When you have to pick option A/B/C to fit in a predefined story progression it limits/destroys any re-playability for me because the changes in how the story progress have to be kept so minimal that it leaves me with no incentive to want to replay the game again with a different build when I'm done.

I really wish Bioware never invented that stupid wheel, and I hope other developers stop copying it. Whenever I see a game using it I lose a lot of interest in it on the spot for the above mentioned reasons.

EDIT: Also, I fucking HATE how the little summarized things never match what my guy says, and in many cases doesn't even come close to the feel or implications of what he actually says when I pick it. I can't recall specific examples, but I have had several occasions where I have picked a choice meaning for it to be sarcastic or jokingly ribbing a friendly character, because of how they summarized it, only to have my guy start chewing out a character or bitching and moaning. Whenever that happens it really takes me out of the game and makes me not want to play it.

List, because Skyrim.

List, because then the developer can map the first option to 1, the second to 2, etc., so you can hotkey through. For consoles though, the wheel is better.

List, like in Dragon Age Origins. 

Lists, cause I'm used to it. And cause lists are boss. Feel boss.

The Mass Effect style wheel.

Wheel feels much better, fluid and organic. List is so hardcore aspie imo. HERES THE STUFF I CAN TALK ABOUT, no dynamic sectioning or aspects of a topic to discuss.

And yes Alpha Protocols convos were great, everything else was terrible tho.

After getting used to the wheel with ME and DA2, lists have become grating to my eyes. I can't stand them.

Doesn't make a difference.

Wheel with number shortkeys...  
So how the conversation wheel has worked for some time now (or.. since forever)

I think it is time for conversation mechanics to evolve into the next thing so I went with other. Of course I have no idea what the next thing should be...

Other: I just yell at the game until it decides to transcribe my yells into something that happens.

Wheels allow the developer to put the options in some kind of logical fashion without actually making one seem like a priority over the others. It also prevents you from accidentally selecting the first option before you've had a chance to read them all. Lastly, it reduces the number of button presses between the player and the option that they want to choose.

Isn't a wheel just a round list?

The wheel to me is just another list. If Mass Effect just had a list that I thumb sticked up and down on it wouldn't change the gameplay for me one bit.

As a matter of fact sometimes, even though I knew it would never happen, I would get nervous that maybe my finger would slip on the analog and I'd choose the wrong dialog option.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution is the best example of a very good hybrid conversation system for everyone. You had 1-3 word options on basically a wheel for those that can't be arsed to read. Yet it provided the actual words you would say in a sentence if you hovered over the option, pleasing those who like their conversations beefy. It also held true to old school RPGs in allowing dialogue branches, choices, alternative questioning. And the best persuation system I have seen in any game to date.

.

@nintendoeats said:

Wheels allow the developer to put the options in some kind of logical fashion without actually making one seem like a priority over the others. It also prevents you from accidentally selecting the first option before you've had a chance to read them all. Lastly, it reduces the number of button presses between the player and the option that they want to choose.

From 1 to 0? Only ever took me 1 click or button press to select a dialogue option in pretty much every RPG. :)

@Brodehouse: This is the case where presentation is now affecting construction. Recent games like Skyrim, Reckoning have started to dumb down even lists to 1-3 words to match the wheel. :(

I think the wheel, if done right, has the capacity to be better. Sometimes voice snippets can repeat through its use, or sometimes two options on the wheel can have the exact same line of dialogue. Also, the voice actor for the character given doesn't always work for specific kinds of characters, I.E. Mark Meer doesn't do a good voice if you wanna be a scoundrel-type character.

That being said, giving your character voice makes dialogue more involving to the player, and gives conversations a far more cinematic effect. It feels like you're playing an actual character in the story instead of just some blank slate.

@Tennmuerti: I assume that you are referring to the usage of number keys rather than scrolling down to select an option. This is reduces clicks, but reduces reliability (since it's very easy to misclick if the game doesn't confirm). This also requires you to change mental modes when in dialog, since you go from thinking in terms of direction to the number keys. I suppose that this makes sense in older CRPGs that tend to be more hotkey based, but it doesn't make sense for games that are primarily direct-control.

@nintendoeats said:

@Tennmuerti: I assume that you are referring to the usage of number keys rather than scrolling down to select an option.

Most RPGs i've played over the years don't rely on scrolling at all since there are but a few lines in dialogue (quality over quantity) so i am referring to both number keys and simply clicking an option with the mouse.

This is reduces clicks, but reduces reliability (since it's very easy to misclick if the game doesn't confirm).

It's just as easy to select a wrong option with a wheel as with a list. Both methods can provide confirmation by highlighting the option. Personally I can't remember when was the last time I selected a wrong dialogue option by misclicking.

This also requires you to change mental modes when in dialog, since you go from thinking in terms of direction to the number keys.

I play RPGs with a mouse. No "changing mental modes" required.

I suppose that this makes sense in older CRPGs that tend to be more hotkey based, but it doesn't make sense for games that are primarily direct-control.

It has less to do with type of game and more with method of input. K+M is better suited to lists. Gamepad is better suited to the wheel. You can play direct control games with k+m.

@Tennmuerti said:

This is reduces clicks, but reduces reliability (since it's very easy to misclick if the game doesn't confirm).

Fist you say the wheel reduces button presses. Now you are chaning it to the reverse ...

It's just as easy to select a wrong option with a wheel imo as with a mouse. Neither way provides confirmation. Confirming every dialogue option, i honestly can't even remember any games doing that, regardless of method of input. People would go mad if they had to confirm every line.

Well, assuming key presses here (not mouse control which solves most of these problems comes with it's own nuisances), there is a damn big difference. With a dialog wheel you select an option then confirm it by pressing a button. It is more or less impossible to accidentally select an option, unless a cat jumps on your lap violently.

A mouse works pretty much the same way, but for games that do provide a lot of options (dear god Fallout New Vegas) things get clunkier. Of course dialog wheels don't always handle this scenario all that well either.

The biggest problem with a mouse is that moving the cursor through a big list is actually a lot more work than moving an analog stick, especially on the 24" monstrosities of today. This may sound like whining, but in really choice heavy games this can start to be really frustrating.

On the whole, those two input methods both have upsides and downsides. But as you said, they are each better suited to certain control methods. On the whole I prefer the dialog wheel, to the point where I would prefer to play that type of game with a controller unless the gameplay dictates otherwise.

@nintendoeats: I read what you said more carefully realised you were talkng specifically about number keys and changed my line, I do that a lot when writing on forums, sorry :)

Fallout3 and hence New Vegas menus were designed by Bethesda primarily with consoles in mind hence they were huge on PC with like hat 3-4 lines visible? That's why people put out mods pretty much day 1 to allow PC players to see more options. Also most people who play on PC have mouse sensitivity pretty high. Moving the cursor through a big list isn't an issue at all.

Anyway my initial point is that both methods require only 1 button press or click with controller and mouse respectively.

I get what you were saying that it would take more button presses to go through a list with a controller.

They both just seem aesthetic. In that case, either one is fine. I just want more depth and trees that branch off to different dialog choices. I don't want to say the good thing and then immediately get good points. I want to work my way there through trees, and feel like I actually had a conversation.

@Tennmuerti said:

Anyway my initial point is that both methods require only 1 button press or click with controller and mouse respectively.

It's true, they do. I can see why somebody might prefer the mouse option, but the added movement time turns me off of it. There is also the fact that you have to press a button on the same object that you are using to point at your selection, but that's mostly an issue for me because my desk is too high and I don't have as good a grip on my mouse as I would like.