Game developers are only encouraging sexism in gaming communities

I'm not entirely clear on how you make the leap from "there aren't really any games with meaningful female protagonists that aren't just an alternative character model to the male and nothing more" to "sexism!". In what way is that negatively demonstrating prejudice against or stereotyping against women based on sex? It strikes me a bit like saying that a game is racist, because the protagonist is white. Like racism, sexism is a pro-active assertion against a group (sex, instead of race in this case) that they are inferior or your sex or race is superior. It's not merely "there aren't enough women, here".

Other than that, I entirely agree. However, I don't think that the male protagonist in any game really is all that meaningful, either. This is demonstrated by the fact that in so many games, you can just switch out the male model for a female one. The real issue here is "why can't gender matter in a game?". For that, I can see two issues that might strike the average developer and discourage them from it:

First, it means that anything you apply to the female character suddenly becomes a toe-hold for anyone that wants to scream "that is so sexist, because... (insert thing unique to the female character)". The other is that you have plenty of mouth-breathers that would lose interest in playing the role of a female protagonist, because she's not like they are. This is demonstrated by many "I ain't playin' as no homo!" style comments in the thread about potentially playing a character who is openly gay.

Personally, I would really look forward to a Heavy Rain style game where you are a woman and where the fact that you're a woman is not just a change of character model.

Anyway, we need to see greater depth in protagonists, period. There may be a hundred male protagonists to every female one, but all of those males are done poorly and trivially, so it's fairly moot.

on the other hand, lets looks at this list of strong, non-sexualized male protagonists 

• all of them.

I just want to point out that a woman can look good, embrace her sexuality, and still be strong. I've seen people in this thread dismiss female leads just because they look good or dress provocatively and that's incredibly silly.  

@Abigailnn said:

@allworkandlowpay: you obviously have absolutely no idea what i was trying to say... like, totally, 100% completely missed the point

What I do know is you've been systematically going through this thread axeing any characters that went against your initial premise. I don't need to hit your point, you already missed your own by page 2.

@Devilb0y said:

@allworkandlowpay: Dude, come on. Don't build up a straw man argument so you can ignore the actual point of the post. Yes, there are decent female protagonists in gaming but they are few in comparison to terrible ones and even fewer in comparison to their male counterparts. I'm not having a go mate, but it's clear that this is a big problem in the games industry and on the internet as a whole and acting like it isn't because the argument hasn't been put eloquently enough just exacerbates things. Personally I cannot wait for the internet to grow the fuck up. Having played as a female character I can say from experience that the reaction to them is normally something along the lines of 'BOOBS!', and although single player games are better they still have a long, long way to go.

I just picked a double bakers dozen worth of main game protagonists. Yes there aren't as many as say male protagonists, but the audience is 80 percent male, what do you expect? What I'm trying to say is that there are PLENTY of strong female leads that don't conform to those stereotypes, and in fact, I'd say despite your sensationalist mindset, if you look out there objectively, beyond some fighting games and stupid games of the late 90s, you'd rarely find those stereotypes in games as profoundly today as you would 5 years ago.

Its a sensationalist claim without substance, and the fact that I scrolled through 8 pages of people responding to the topic with examples of the many strong female protagonists, only to have them picked apart without merit by the TC, just shows how shallow the argument really is.

EDIT: Also, non-obscene nudity is not the same as sexualized. There is a major difference between an artful scene that ends up building tension and/or character and pornography of grindhouse obscenity. Dead or Alive girls are sexualized, Madison is not.

@allworkandlowpay: I assume you're not counting Other M as a Metroid game? I'm not usually one to complain about this stuff, I do think there's been plenty of great female lead characters (although I do think we need more) but Samus in Other M is one of the worst representations of females in any media ever. I'm pretty sure the guys who made it had never actually met a real woman.. and considering they're the Dead or Alive guys, that does make sense.

For every train there are passengers. Sexism is an illusion.

@allworkandlowpay: you obviously have absolutely no idea what i was trying to say... like, totally, 100% completely missed the point

I just want to point out that a woman can look good, embrace her sexuality, and still be strong. I've seen people in this thread dismiss female leads just because they look good or dress provocatively and that's incredibly silly.  

@WinterSnowblind said:

@allworkandlowpay: I assume you're not counting Other M as a Metroid game? I'm not usually one to complain about this stuff, I do think there's been plenty of great female lead characters (although I do think we need more) but Samus in Other M is one of the worst representations of females in any media ever. I'm pretty sure the guys who made it had never actually met a real woman.. and considering they're the Dead or Alive guys, that does make sense.

I haven't played it. No wii game past Mario Galaxy 1 had peaked my interest enough to dust the old Nintendo off.

Mass Effect 2 comes to mind. Female Shepard is a incredibly powerful character in that game in ways that the Male Shepard isn't always.

And, hear me out here, as much as I love to see diversity in games and enjoy playing as other characters than stoic, badass male lead, making games with female protagonists for the sake of having a female protagonist is just as bad, if not worse, than having no female leads at all.

That said though, I totally understand where you're coming from when it comes to relationships in games. It always weirds me out when a game has me playing a female lead and I'm "forced" to romance a dude. While it's costly and isn't always handled well, I'd love to see all games handle gender (Except when a male or female character is vital to the story) in much the way Mass Effect does it, with characters responding to you differently due to your gender.

2. Its a gimmick, overly sexualized, a totally crazy game, or a combination of the 3 (tomb raider, bayonetta, blood rayne, dead or alive, ms splosion man)

So i started playing dues ex and i realized that I cant think of one serious or realistic story-focused game (or even one that had a decent story that wasn't the focus of the game...) thats come out in the last 10 years that has a female protagonist. Beyond good and evil and alice: madness returns are the best examples i can think of, but they are both more fantasy games (even though alice is still really dark) and the only real examples i can think of at all...

@Axxol: true but mirrors edge wasnt even a good game really.. nonetheless good story

Im just a bit sick of playing as a guy and then being smothered in female love interests left and right. If it keeps up im going to turn into a lesbian.

Metroid.

@Devilb0y said:

@allworkandlowpay: Dude, come on. Don't build up a straw man argument so you can ignore the actual point of the post. Yes, there are decent female protagonists in gaming but they are few in comparison to terrible ones and even fewer in comparison to their male counterparts. I'm not having a go mate, but it's clear that this is a big problem in the games industry and on the internet as a whole and acting like it isn't because the argument hasn't been put eloquently enough just exacerbates things. Personally I cannot wait for the internet to grow the fuck up. Having played as a female character I can say from experience that the reaction to them is normally something along the lines of 'BOOBS!', and although single player games are better they still have a long, long way to go.

I just picked a double bakers dozen worth of main game protagonists. Yes there aren't as many as say male protagonists, but the audience is 80 percent male, what do you expect? What I'm trying to say is that there are PLENTY of strong female leads that don't conform to those stereotypes, and in fact, I'd say despite your sensationalist mindset, if you look out there objectively, beyond some fighting games and stupid games of the late 90s, you'd rarely find those stereotypes in games as profoundly today as you would 5 years ago.

Its a sensationalist claim without substance, and the fact that I scrolled through 8 pages of people responding to the topic with examples of the many strong female protagonists, only to have them picked apart without merit by the TC, just shows how shallow the argument really is.

EDIT: Also, non-obscene nudity is not the same as sexualized. There is a major difference between an artful scene that ends up building tension and/or character and pornography of grindhouse obscenity. Dead or Alive girls are sexualized, Madison is not.

@N7 said:

No offense, but if Adam Jensen would have been a girl, she would have gotten the shit beat out of her in the first 20 minutes of the game, and everyone would have cried "Oh, but she's supposed to be a strong-willed woman! How dare Eidos portray a woman being bastardized by a man in a video game! What sexism!".
 

  

  SHE'S NOT EVEN AUGMENTED 
 
 
You havent played game right? At begining there is sequence that Adam gets smacked like a baby. If stuff like that happened to girl it would be called sexist and stuff like that.
 
 
I get that some games could have female protagonist but as a male I'm not big fan of serious games with me paying female ( its hard to think like the character) plus as someone already mentioned super brutal games with female protagonist sounds a bit wierd. Could you imagine Solid Snake being woman?

@Devilb0y said:

Jill Valentine was most definitely sexualised when it wasn't really necessary, as was every following female lead in the RE series (with the possible exception of Claire in RE:2). OK most of their male leads are pretty simplistic as well so at least Capcom are consistant, but Jill's portrayal (particularly in RE:1) is actually pretty offensive given she's supposed to be some special forces bad-ass. I'm not going to go through the lists provided saying which protagonists I agree with and which I don't, and I acknowledge that gaming has gotten a LOT better since the 90s in this respect, but we're not there yet and it's naive to think we are. It's not being sensationalist to say that games developers still frequently fall back on 'Make her hot' character design. Ok, we've established that they do the something similar for male leads a lot of the time but at least they don't get pigeon-holed into a fairly offensive stereotype. And speaking as a connoisseur, a shower scene is very rarely character-building. They didn't need to show her naked if they wanted to build tension or reference Hitchcock - they certainly didn't with Beardy McBearderson when he takes one in the tutorial (can't remember the protagonist in Heavy Rain's name now). I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that that scene was at least partially designed to titilate.

How is Jill Valentine sexualised? Did she run around moaning when killing zombies? Was she running around in an oiled bikini? Either you a) have never played the game, or b) have no idea what sexualised characters actually look and act like.

. It's not being sensationalist to say that games developers still frequently fall back on 'Make her hot' character design. Ok, we've established that they do the something similar for male leads a lot of the time but at least they don't get pigeon-holed into a fairly offensive stereotype.

Yes, because male protagonists are not pigeon-holed into a fairly offensive stereotype either. I'd like to see a male character who runs from danger, who is afraid of things, who doesn't have twelve pack abs and zero fat. Also, do you have any evidence that game developers frequently fall back on the "make her hot" character design, outside of say kitschy fighting games? Besides Bayonetta, I can't think of any in recent years.

And speaking as a connoisseur, a shower scene is very rarely character-building. They didn't need to show her naked if they wanted to build tension or reference Hitchcock - they certainly didn't with Beardy McBearderson when he takes one in the tutorial (can't remember the protagonist in Heavy Rain's name now). I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that that scene was at least partially designed to titilate.

A little titilation does not discount the character as a sex object. You are applying a double standard, and poorly. Is "Beardy Mc Bearderson" now disqualified as a character because he had a titilating scene? No, so why does one artfully shot partial nudity scene somehow invalidate her and turn her into a sex object. Want to talk about straw man objects, re-read your post.

@Abigailnn said:

@allworkandlowpay: you obviously have absolutely no idea what i was trying to say... like, totally, 100% completely missed the point

Well then you're going to have to explain yourself a little more clearly. Why don't you provide us with one existing game that features a male protagonist, which encapsulates what you'd like to see from a game with a female protagonist. Bear in mind that you'll have to stick to your rules about the appearance of the character. No buff, handsome dudes that at any point in the game take their shirt off, and they should never be involved in any kind of macho behaviour either - because the female equivalent of that would be a "sexist", stereotypical portrayal of a woman. Again, as per your rules, the character mustn't be a personality devoid Gordon Freeman, and the game has to be a success - primarily, you must consider it a "good game".

Dead or Alive girls are sexualized, Madison is not.

@Danteveli

I get that some games could have female protagonist but as a male I'm not big fan of serious games with me paying female ( its hard to think like the character) plus as someone already mentioned super brutal games with female protagonist sounds a bit wierd. Could you imagine Solid Snake being woman?

How do we feel about Lara Croft, then? She's a lady. Right?

@pixieface: As I've said previously, and you aren't being a nit-picky twerp, don't worry -- a little titilation or minor artistic nudity does not equal a character being designed to be a sexual object. And Heavy Rain is hardly a case for that, unless you also object to that horrible "sexualization" of Ethan Mars as well.

I'll probably don't have anything to add to this conversation, and since when I'm playing a game I see characters, not genders, I don't have a problem picking a dude or a lady given the choice, nor a problem playing with either one when there is no choice. Besides, my opinion will probably be dismissed because I'm a white, European male. I'll just ask one thing and one thing only.

How many vegan protagonists are out there? Thought so. You people keep feeding the flames of hatred towards me and my people :@

So I guess Fallout and Mass Effect aren't story and immersion focused? Hmm... We've been lied to, you guys. The games fucking lied to us.

@Abigailnn said:

@allworkandlowpay: you obviously have absolutely no idea what i was trying to say... like, totally, 100% completely missed the point

I don't think we are.

"How DOESNT a lack of female protagonists encourage sexism?"

Read that. You wrote that, and it is rather easy to discern what point you are driving at. And once again for the third time, I posit this request. Show supporting evidence for that statement. Give an argument on how the lack of female protagonists encourages sexism, and is not simply the sad byproduct of a gender disparity in both developers and audience. I don't think it needs to also be stated that gender disparity and the encouragement of sexism are two different things.

Ya broads got Cooking Mama, don'cha?

Anyone who thinks that there isn't any sexism in games or gaming communities is already too far gone.

@JoeyRavn said:

I'll probably don't have anything to add to this conversation, and since when I'm playing a game I see characters, not genders, I don't have a problem picking a dude or a lady given the choice, nor a problem playing with either one when there is no choice. Besides, my opinion will probably be dismissed because I'm a white, European male. I'll just ask one thing and one thing only.

How many vegan protagonists are out there? Thought so. You people keep feeding the flames of hatred towards me and my people :@

Master Chief is likely fed through a tube with protein-based emulsions. Does that count?

@TeflonBilly said:

Ya broads got Cooking Mama, don'cha?

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=252

@pixieface: As I've said previously, and you aren't being a nit-picky twerp, don't worry -- a little titilation or minor artistic nudity does not equal a character being designed to be a sexual object. And Heavy Rain is hardly a case for that, unless you also object to that horrible "sexualization" of Ethan Mars as well.

How do we feel about Lara Croft, then? She's a lady. Right?

On a serious note though, I would say that encouraging sexism is not only hyperbolic, but just plain wrong. However, there is something to be said that the video game market could be considerably less hostile towards the female demographic in the characterization department.

@9cupsoftea said:

Anyone who thinks that there isn't any sexism in games or gaming communities is already too far gone.

Except sexism and the encourgement of are two different things. There's a giant gender disparity, so yes, stereotypical or idealized views of both male and female characters exist. We can consider those sexist. Going from that to saying it actively encourages sexism however is a different thing, much like the existence of violence and drug use in a game is different from the encouragement of violence and drug use.

I agree that the majority of protagonists are men, almost "perfect" men. Men who are better than every other man they encounter, portraying an unrealistic image of how a man should look and act. Over-muscular, superpowered, able to accomplish anything, are these not unrealistic standards for boys to aspire to?

In Deus Ex you play the "enhanced" human, he is literally more-than-a-man, driven by his desire to go after those who harmed his girlfriend. Is that how men are seen? To be the protectors of women, to drop everything to go to their aid.

@9cupsoftea said:

Anyone who thinks that there isn't any sexism in games or gaming communities is already too far gone.

Except sexism and the encourgement of are two different things. There's a giant gender disparity, so yes, stereotypical or idealized views of both male and female characters exist. We can consider those sexist. Going from that to saying it actively encourages sexism however is a different thing, much like the existence of violence and drug use in a game is different from the encouragement of violence and drug use.

but a similar game could easily work -and be better- with a female lead imo

@EveretteScott said:

@Abigailnn said:

but a similar game could easily work -and be better- with a female lead imo

Isn't that being hypocritical. You're talking about being against sexism which means you want both sexes treated equally. Then you go and say something would be better if it had a female lead instead just because you're a girl. I'm not meaning this to be attacking, it just seems like backwards logic. You also seem to be very arrogant. Ignoring many others' good examples of non-sexualized female leads by just shrugging them off like they don't matter because you don't like the game in question or something else trivial. You may have a point with certain things but you're not accepting when you're wrong.

Everrette, she's not be arrogant, she's just has a weak argument, and can't effectively defend it.

@allworkandlowpay said:

@JoeyRavn said:

I'll probably don't have anything to add to this conversation, and since when I'm playing a game I see characters, not genders, I don't have a problem picking a dude or a lady given the choice, nor a problem playing with either one when there is no choice. Besides, my opinion will probably be dismissed because I'm a white, European male. I'll just ask one thing and one thing only.

How many vegan protagonists are out there? Thought so. You people keep feeding the flames of hatred towards me and my people :@

Master Chief is likely fed through a tube with protein-based emulsions. Does that count?

And he wears green. Sold.

How is Jill Valentine sexualised? Did she run around moaning when killing zombies? Was she running around in an oiled bikini? Either you a) have never played the game, or b) have no idea what sexualised characters actually look and act like.

@allworkandlowpay

. It's not being sensationalist to say that games developers still frequently fall back on 'Make her hot' character design. Ok, we've established that they do the something similar for male leads a lot of the time but at least they don't get pigeon-holed into a fairly offensive stereotype.

Yes, because male protagonists are not pigeon-holed into a fairly offensive stereotype either. I'd like to see a male character who runs from danger, who is afraid of things, who doesn't have twelve pack abs and zero fat. Also, do you have any evidence that game developers frequently fall back on the "make her hot" character design, outside of say kitschy fighting games? Besides Bayonetta, I can't think of any in recent years.

And speaking as a connoisseur, a shower scene is very rarely character-building. They didn't need to show her naked if they wanted to build tension or reference Hitchcock - they certainly didn't with Beardy McBearderson when he takes one in the tutorial (can't remember the protagonist in Heavy Rain's name now). I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that that scene was at least partially designed to titilate.

A little titilation does not discount the character as a sex object. You are applying a double standard, and poorly. Is "Beardy Mc Bearderson" now disqualified as a character because he had a titilating scene? No, so why does one artfully shot partial nudity scene somehow invalidate her and turn her into a sex object. Want to talk about straw man objects, re-read your post.

I completely agree that more female protagonists like Faith and Jade would be awesome but I don't think evil male developers are the reason more girls aren't playing videogames. Honestly I've never heard a female friend tell me that a lack of female protagonists is the reason they don't play games. I think most gamers, male and female included are mature enough to enjoy a game for the story, regardless of who the lead is. I've never found myself wishing I could be male in a female led game and vice versa.

Sexism is still an issue in the industry and definitely in the community at large but this has been a male led industry for years and while progress has been made, it continues to be. It's changing, but it's still gonna take time.

Also I think the OP is being a little silly on what 'sexualized' means. From the sounds of it a female character who's attractive is unacceptable. Lightning from FF13? Why? Cause she's not wearing long pants? If we're gonna be that dogmatic, 90% of the male leads are overly sexualized and don't represent what I want in a character. Cause they're muscly and far too attractive. Stupid Nathan Drake.

Movies and games are always gonna represent the 'ideal' version of ourselves. As interesting as it might be, 90% of gamers probably don't wanna or don't care to play a 'realistic' version of themselves.

everyone needs to take notes from alyx vance

@Sweep said:

How do we feel about Lara Croft, then? She's a lady. Right?

She's gone under the radar, Sweep. They didn't change her default hair colour to blonde so there's been nothing to blog about for some time.

I think developers are merely trying to appeal to their audience. Women 18 and older only represent about a third of the gaming population (according to the ESA), and I think many people think that proportion is lower than that.

I thought Bayonetta is pretty excellent.

@Abigailnn

I like where your head is at, girl. Let me first be a gentlemen and say that is post is rather long and at no point do I mean any sarcasm so I apologize in advance if you know any of this already. The important thing here is to understand why the industry is so testosterone heavy and it isn't as male heavy as you might assume.

First, the majority of the consumer base is in fact male on the average age of 28 believe it or not. It goes without saying that the female demographic is way less so the games are of course going to cater to the later. The question is if the games themselves are really encouraging sexism or are they really just catering to what the demographic wants?

Oaky let me preface this by saying that I'm not talking bad about guys, hell, I am one. I'm simply stating what the industry projected sales are based on.

A young man in between the ages of 13-25 is most likely going to be into violence, explosions and the female figure. This means that they are going to have some type of shall we say, "complex," where at some point in there life they might fantasize about killing the bad guys, saving the day, and of course getting the girl. I know, I was at that point not too long ago but I mean c'mon we're guys it's just how we are. Anyway, knowing this, game developers often want to put you in a role that is most appealing to the majority via, the super solider, the space marine, hero with powers, etc. All the prime suspects for making things blow up, killing, and of course getting all the hot women. Now, when it comes to playing as women most guys would rather play as an over sexed anime girl wielding a gun or sword (or both?) that is bigger than they are because, let's face it, if you're going to force them to look a character for a whole game they need to be eye candy. Again, just telling the truth.

I'm not even going to pretend I know what women are into because it really does vary. It's historically known that the retro arcade game "Centipede" (developed by a woman) was the first game to appeal to a mass female audience who were often better at the game than men. Jade Raymond who considers herself a very avid gamer has worked on such titles as The Sims Online (also a female centric audience) now produces the Assassin's Creed franchise with Ubisoft.

My point is that the industry has tons of creative people who have a lot of very unique ideas but at the end of the day it's a business that is going to look for it's interests like any other. It mainly comes down to where the demand is and truthfully it can be as simple as: more girl plays, more female appealing games. Since I don't personally see that happening anytime soon I feel that as the gaming audience grows wider and older so with the entertainment they consume. Anyway sorry for making this a MEGAPOST but if you or anyone bothered to take the time to read it, thank you.

Nobody played Dreamfall: The Longest Journey? Story-driven game; fantastic female lead.

Thought provoking thread tc. I think so many of us play so many games that we have gotten numb to the male character domination factor and relentless sexualization of female characters in games. Many of the obtuse posts here point to that. You're argument is mostly misunderstood obviously, and being answered with lists of games w/female leads is symptomatic.

Obviously the videogame demographic is a huge reason for the tilt towards men and lazy portrayals of women, but it's also the fragility and youth of this medium that holds back more interesting portrayals. The demographic has, and is changing, so videogames will evolve accordingly, and for the better imo. Is sexism encouraged in gaming communities? As a biproduct yes I'm sure it is, but mostly because the pattern and dominant market formula has not changed in any significant way. But also because more women are not speaking out about this stuff unlike you.

Developers need to know we want different games. Games with more diverse and interesting characters, male and female. Plots that appeal more to say the 30-40 demo that's growing superfast. Games that can be put on par with the significant films that are made each year. This is not some fantasy...games can be art without a doubt.

I think many devs are trying to push that envelope. And we'll see more games with less stereotypical characters, and less sexualization, male and female, as time goes on. Those will be the games and developers I'll support with my dollars.

QUESTIONS: Art imitating life: we still live in a patriarchal society. Life imitating art: should video games lead the way in social development? Aren't most video games violent? Isn't the whole argument that violent video games wont make violent individuals? So would a sexist or non sexist game effect people?

@Abigailnn: Without getting into the whole picking apart the words you used, which seems to have happened allot in this thread, I can see what you are getting at. Personally I think the issue is one of gender role casting and stereotypes. Women are "seen" in society as being less aggressive and less convincing as a strong [physically and mentally] force in times of conflict or war. Its a common problem and [in the games industry] seems to stem mostly from a lack of creativity on the part of Games designers and writers.

However this goes both ways, from a male perspective we are constantly being shown and told what is expected from us as our role in society. Men are shown as strong single minded physically impressive and often unrealistically muscled semi clothed super heroes. This is what we are being told that we should be, which obviously is just as unrealistic as holding up the social ideal of woman and expecting it to be achievable.

The real problem is not so much one of sexism or misogyny rather one of lazy thinking. Its easy to go with the social fantasy Ideal as your hero. When do we ever see a slightly overweight balding guy in his 40's who needs glasses standing up and fighting for something he believes in as the protagonist to a Games story? The first Developer to go out there and have a physically disabled protagonist or a single mother with no super powers in a successful well designed game handled in a mature way... well when that happens I declare them the winner.

Sadly until designers are prepared to think beyond Mr. Six Pack Caucasian with a gravelly voice, we won't see that.

Personally I think its going to come from the Indie scene first, but thats just speculation. It will happen, just a matter of time and people learning to think outside the social stereotypes we are all held up to and pressured into following. Hero-worship has become commoditised.

Sorry this is quite long. It's a complicated subject with many parts woven in and out with other problems al tied up in the big scheme of things. :)

For now sadly theres not much thats going to suddenly change the way the games industry is. Its a long slow process of growing up as a medium. But on the bright side we are watching the infancy and growing evolution of a whole new art form and media, which is amazing when you think about it. :) Just imagine what its going to be like when games do grow up and start maturing, telling stories about interesting people and learning how to tackle mature topics and issues. We get to see the first time it happens and tell future generations we were there.

Well I find that exiting anyway :D

@Sykosis: Unfortunately it is going to take the Games industry reaching out to wider demographics in a realistic way rather than gimmick toy sales like the Wii. So far the industry is at fault here not the user base. Lack of thinking outside the box and lazy design has dogged the games industry heavily as its become more and more financially incentivised. Thankfully we are seeing a massive upswing in the interest in the Indie games scene which is where I'm hoping the more interesting changes are going to come from and spread throughout the industry as we are already seeing with games like Portal.

@Binman88 said: 

@Abigailnn said:

@allworkandlowpay: you obviously have absolutely no idea what i was trying to say... like, totally, 100% completely missed the point

Well then you're going to have to explain yourself a little more clearly. Why don't you provide us with one existing game that features a male protagonist, which encapsulates what you'd like to see from a game with a female protagonist. Bear in mind that you'll have to stick to your rules about the appearance of the character. No buff, handsome dudes that at any point in the game take their shirt off, and they should never be involved in any kind of macho behaviour either - because the female equivalent of that would be a "sexist", stereotypical portrayal of a woman. Again, as per your rules, the character mustn't be a personality devoid Gordon Freeman, and the game has to be a success - primarily, you must consider it a "good game".

Well, I can't speak for her but... Norman Jayden from Heavy Rain. There were a lot of elements about that game I didn't like but I thought he was fantastic. He had both great qualities and terrible flaws and personal problems he had to work through that often came in conflict with the main plot. Alan Wake was great. Same thing. Good qualities, like intelligence and perseverance, but he was also deeply troubled. Even Max Payne had some very interesting psychological issues that we could explore.
 
Basically, I appreciate characters who have both strengths and weaknesses, just as you and I have strengths and weaknesses. The video game world is desperately lacking in these on both the male and female fronts. However, I would argue that ladies do get the short end of the already short stick. Even when these characters do exist, such as in the case of April Ryan from The Longest Journey, they are not in mainstream games because it is a monetary risk. Producers seem to think all gamers would be turned off by playing as a woman. I think that is silly and I would like to see developers take that risk.

maybe it has to do with the prevalence of violent video games, it would make sense that the protagonist should be aggresive and physically stronger, traits that lend themselve far easier to men than women.

Besides the "strong woman" character is hard to master, too much femininity and she isn't believably capable, too little and you wonder why they contrived this character to be a woman when they are so masculine.