My problem with Japanese games

 Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Japanese made video games. However, there is always one glaring issue that Japanese games seems to have. A long slow set up. it takes forever for you to get to the fun part of the game, because your stuck in long ass tutorials, or the intro is like 3 hours long!

Hear, let me give you some examples: (keep in mind that I do like all these games)

Final Fantasy XIII: It takes 2 hours before the combat gets fun. even then your still learning new combat stuff by the 11th chapter!

Persona 4: There is about 3 hours of set-up before the combat and open world parts kick in. I'm kind of ok with this thou because that set-up does introduce the characters, plot, and foreshadows stuff; all of which is important.

Kingdom Hearts II: Probably the best example of this I can give, Kingdom Hearts features an 8 hour Tutorial! Most of the stuff in it are even important, just dumb side quests that have no importance. these could have easily been cut done to an hour.

However not all Japanese are like this. Resident Evil 4 for Example in the exact opposite. there is a 5 minute cut-scene to explain whats happening, then before you know it there's like a billion zombie on you!
 
So, have any of you experienced this issue? Whats your take on it? does is bother you? or are you fine with it?     
 
EDIT: I think people are misunderstanding what I am taking about. When I mean a slow set up, I am referring to the gameplay not the story. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear.

I wish I could say this isn't true, but you seem to be spot on.  
 
Another big problem I have is the unwillingness to breakaway from tradition. Again, not true for every Japanese titles, but it does fit a lot of them. 

Off-Topic but are you dyslexic?

It's more of a genre problem than a Japanese thing.  RPGs often have slow starts, and that includes WRPGs (Dragon Age, for example).  Japan also makes stuff like After Burner Climax and Super Street Fighter IV.

Like the poster above me said, it's an RPG thing, and I'm kinda glad for it, especially in the FF13 way cause that was a lot for me to grasp and I'm glad they didn't just throw it in my face and go "Here have fun" cause though might have been a bad idea. 
 
Ah, it dosen't bother me much.. but to each their own, some are more annoying than others..
 
Like that KH2 one.. good god that was horrid..

"It's more of a genre problem than a Japanese thing.  RPGs often have slow starts, and that includes WRPGs (Dragon Age, for example).  Japan also makes stuff like After Burner Climax and Super Street Fighter IV. "

Even if it slows down the experience, i'd much rather an RPG explain how everything works instead of just throwing me to the wolves (Chrono Cross is a shining example of a game that will NEVER bother to actually explain it's systems to you, and the manual isn't that much help either).

" Off-Topic but are you dyslexic? "

Final Fantasy just says "pick 4 guys okay you're in the world, go"

I have no problem with long set-ups.  It'll irritate me if it's long, boring and repetitive tutorials, but if it's setting up the story I'll be intrigued and patient.  I don't need to put in the disc and immediately fight something.

" @SPACETURTLE said:

" @OllyOxenFree said:

" Off-Topic but are you dyslexic? "

That's a real nice Q. Especially if he's not dyslexic. "

That was funny, that's why I quote it. "

Why do people keep saying, "You're still learning stuff by chapter 11?" That makes it sound like the game stupidly paces the gameplay so that you can't use items until chapter 10 or some shit. It's one thing, people! One thing! You learn pretty much everything you need to know before the first disc is over. Also, what 8-hour tutorial are you talking about? I can't remember an f'ing thing like that.
 
On topic, your complaint seems to be pacing, which I can see in some games. Like Final Fantasy XIII. Yes, I defended it, but I can criticize it, can't I?

My problem with japanese games... 
1)  They dont actually make RPGs.  Maybe I got used to western fantasy/science fiction RPGs but seriously, the idea of you being some young punk teaming up with losers to save the world is lame already. 
2)  Nothing changes.  Can we please have RPGs that do something other than turn based combat? 
3)  Do it crappy.  Lost Planet 2 is fun, yeah.  But it sure as hell is not as good as any other high profile shooter out there. 
4)  Dont think their shit stink.  For me, the metal gear series lost its way when you found out you have to play as Raiden for most of MGS2.  Then we started with the fat guy on roller skates, the chick who has powers, a talking arm, you fight a ghost and a guy made of bees, and Big Boss is alive.  Good fucking work.  All that shit sucked.  Let me play as Solid Snake and just have me tackle one problem.  Like a giant walking robot.  Not some confusing conspiracy about guys from one, one god damn mission that happen to control the world.  Yeah fuck you Konami.  And GT5 will never come out. 
5)  Graphics.  Sorry to say but I have yet to see great use of bump mapping in Japanese games.  Or normal mapping.  Textures of floors that have tiles on them or are grated are flat.  Examples, bayonetta and FF13.  Learn to use more than just polygons and higher resolutions bitches.  Lost Planet 2 is close but all the effects are so pixelated, I dont get why. 
6)  Online features are always lacking....  ugh.... come on step yo game up! The main reason I believe GT5 will not be as good as any other good racer out now.
7)  They ruin good franchises.  Retro Studios did an amazing job with Metroid.  But it was getting toward the end of its life with Metroid 3.  But to give it back to a japanese developer to turn it into some kind of anime drama, thats where I just throw up my hands and go back to my 360. 
8) I can't tell if its a guy or a girl.  For shame.

persona 4, kingdom hearts 2, and final fantasy XIII are all RPG's. resident evil is survival horror. don't western RPG's take a while to really cut to the chase as well?

so 3 rpgs, which are slow by nature btw, gave you that impression about japanese gaming in general? I'd love to get 3 doctors over to your house right now and take a giant shit on your lawn. that way you might make some equally wild generalization about doctors being douchebags and never go to the hospital again, thus causing you to die a agonizing death.

" so 3 rpgs, which are slow by nature btw, gave you that impression about japanese gaming in general? I'd love to get 3 doctors over to your house right now and take a giant shit on your lawn. that way you might make some equally wild generalization about doctors being douchebags and never go to the hospital again, thus causing you to die a agonizing death. "

" so 3 rpgs, which are slow by nature btw, gave you that impression about japanese gaming in general? I'd love to get 3 doctors over to your house right now and take a giant shit on your lawn. that way you might make some equally wild generalization about doctors being douchebags and never go to the hospital again, thus causing you to die a agonizing death. "

It is a bummer that a lot of Japanese games have slow starts, but I've gotten used to it.

Really, any RPG, regardless of region, that has come out in the last 10 years has had some sort of long, unskippable, monotonous opening sequence that acts as a staging ground for the tutorial. Even Bioware falls prey to it. Let's see.... 

• Baldur's Gate: Candlekeep (admittedly, the least egregious offender, but you know that you will do all those stupid fetch quests because of the experience). 
• BG2: Irenicus' Dungeon. 
• KotOR: The Endar Spire. Hell, Taris could count too. 
• Jade Empire: Dude, I don't know. I doubt I got past that part. 
• Mass Effect: Eden Prime and the Citadel
• Dragon Age: Ostagar
• Mass Effect 2: Cerberus Base and that first colony place.

" so 3 rpgs, which are slow by nature btw, gave you that impression about japanese gaming in general? I'd love to get 3 doctors over to your house right now and take a giant shit on your lawn. that way you might make some equally wild generalization about doctors being douchebags and never go to the hospital again, thus causing you to die a agonizing death. "

" Why do people keep saying, "You're still learning stuff by chapter 11?" That makes it sound like the game stupidly paces the gameplay so that you can't use items until chapter 10 or some shit. It's one thing, people! One thing! You learn pretty much everything you need to know before the first disc is over. Also, what 8-hour tutorial are you talking about? I can't remember an f'ing thing like that. On topic, your complaint seems to be pacing, which I can see in some games. Like Final Fantasy XIII. Yes, I defended it, but I can criticize it, can't I? "

" @mnzy said:

" @SPACETURTLE said:

" @OllyOxenFree said:

" Off-Topic but are you dyslexic? "

That's a real nice Q. Especially if he's not dyslexic. "

That was funny, that's why I quote it. "

Actually, I wanna quote it too. "

I have not exactly experienced this, maybe you're impatient.

" My problem with japanese games... 1)  They dont actually make RPGs.  Maybe I got used to western fantasy/science fiction RPGs but seriously, the idea of you being some young punk teaming up with losers to save the world is lame already. 2)  Nothing changes.  Can we please have RPGs that do something other than turn based combat? 3)  Do it crappy.  Lost Planet 2 is fun, yeah.  But it sure as hell is not as good as any other high profile shooter out there. 4)  Dont think their shit stink.  For me, the metal gear series lost its way when you found out you have to play as Raiden for most of MGS2.  Then we started with the fat guy on roller skates, the chick who has powers, a talking arm, you fight a ghost and a guy made of bees, and Big Boss is alive.  Good fucking work.  All that shit sucked.  Let me play as Solid Snake and just have me tackle one problem.  Like a giant walking robot.  Not some confusing conspiracy about guys from one, one god damn mission that happen to control the world.  Yeah fuck you Konami.  And GT5 will never come out. 5)  Graphics.  Sorry to say but I have yet to see great use of bump mapping in Japanese games.  Or normal mapping.  Textures of floors that have tiles on them or are grated are flat.  Examples, bayonetta and FF13.  Learn to use more than just polygons and higher resolutions bitches.  Lost Planet 2 is close but all the effects are so pixelated, I dont get why. 6)  Online features are always lacking....  ugh.... come on step yo game up! The main reason I believe GT5 will not be as good as any other good racer out now.7)  They ruin good franchises.  Retro Studios did an amazing job with Metroid.  But it was getting toward the end of its life with Metroid 3.  But to give it back to a japanese developer to turn it into some kind of anime drama, thats where I just throw up my hands and go back to my 360. 8) I can't tell if its a guy or a girl.  For shame. "

" @wasteguru:   I like the game, too, but I'm tired of this chapter 11 shit. As for Kingdom Hearts II, it has quite a bit to do with the plot. How can you tell me that Roxas dodging bullets and jumping headfirst into Namine doesn't relate to the plot at all :P? "

" @Video_Game_King said:

" @wasteguru:   I like the game, too, but I'm tired of this chapter 11 shit. As for Kingdom Hearts II, it has quite a bit to do with the plot. How can you tell me that Roxas dodging bullets and jumping headfirst into Namine doesn't relate to the plot at all :P? "

Oh I'm not talking about the stuff with Namine. I mean the "Hey guys, we need to find the seven wonders around town for our school report, and then we can go eat Popsicles." "

bukkake?

" @wasteguru said:

" @Video_Game_King said:

" @wasteguru:   I like the game, too, but I'm tired of this chapter 11 shit. As for Kingdom Hearts II, it has quite a bit to do with the plot. How can you tell me that Roxas dodging bullets and jumping headfirst into Namine doesn't relate to the plot at all :P? "

Oh I'm not talking about the stuff with Namine. I mean the "Hey guys, we need to find the seven wonders around town for our school report, and then we can go eat Popsicles." "

It's part of establishing Roxas as a character.  He had never been seen in the series before, and it helped to get that little extra background on him at the start instead of just leaving him without any personality to speak of or care about.  It did stretch on longer than it could have, but Kingdom Hearts is no stranger to slow starts.  The Destiny Islands section of KH1 wasn't exactly a five-minute tutorial, either, and it takes about an hour before 358/2 Days opens up beyond the tutorials. "

1. Kingdom Hearts 2’s tutorial wasn’t 8 hours long; more like 2-4. I think it was too long, though. 2. Play OLDER Japanese games; they go STRAIGHT into the action.

" @Hailinel said:

" @wasteguru said:

" @Video_Game_King said:

" @wasteguru:   I like the game, too, but I'm tired of this chapter 11 shit. As for Kingdom Hearts II, it has quite a bit to do with the plot. How can you tell me that Roxas dodging bullets and jumping headfirst into Namine doesn't relate to the plot at all :P? "

Oh I'm not talking about the stuff with Namine. I mean the "Hey guys, we need to find the seven wonders around town for our school report, and then we can go eat Popsicles." "

It's part of establishing Roxas as a character.  He had never been seen in the series before, and it helped to get that little extra background on him at the start instead of just leaving him without any personality to speak of or care about.  It did stretch on longer than it could have, but Kingdom Hearts is no stranger to slow starts.  The Destiny Islands section of KH1 wasn't exactly a five-minute tutorial, either, and it takes about an hour before 358/2 Days opens up beyond the tutorials. "

I see what your saying and I agree character background is important. but it didn't need to be that long, I had a pretty good Idea about Roxas as a character by the time that was half way over. "

@hedfone: NO!!!!!!!!

Japanese, American, what's the fucking difference? It's all down to the individual games, genres and developers. Saying "Japanese games do this" and "Western games do that" is just overgeneralizing. Plenty of western games hold your hand the first hour or two, and plenty of Japanese games don't have long tutorials. 
 
Opinions about anime art style aside, the whole argument is stupid.

8 hours for KH 2? I got done with the Roxas segment in 3 hours.

I don't have a problem with Japanese games persay, because Japanese developers put in work on many games that people assume are entirely "Western". But from a design standpoint, in the classical sense, their RPG's feel dated. Like FF 13. They offered various reasons for their poor design, but they all equated to half-assed reasons that equated to   "we don't get modern RPGs". I mean, really, 30+ hours of tutorial with no side quests or any other evolution of RPGs in the past five years? And that combat system to boot?
 
And then there's the remnants of the survival horror genre. Man, if a day has ever passed.

Man I remember back when it was cool to play Japanese games.

" Go play EvE? Oh yay, 10 months in, and i'm still not getting anywhere!  Or try out space sims or other sim type games?  But do people complain about these? No. Not all games should be the same. There are games where you can jump in play a bit staright away, and there are games where you're supposed to put lots of time in. It's like everybody wants every game to be exactly the same these days. "

" Man I remember back when it was cool to play Japanese games. "

What does this thread really have to do with Japanese games? Japan makes thousands of games that aren't RPG's and all of the games being complained about are still good despite those MINOR flaws expressed in the OP.

" What does this thread really have to do with Japanese games? Japan makes thousands of games that aren't RPG's and all of the games being complained about are still good despite those MINOR flaws expressed in the OP. "

" @Astrovik said:

" What does this thread really have to do with Japanese games? Japan makes thousands of games that aren't RPG's and all of the games being complained about are still good despite those MINOR flaws expressed in the OP. "

Thats my bad. I should have titled it "My Problem with Games". IO guess I said Japanese because most of the examples that came to my head were Japanese. Sorry for wasting peoples time. "

To me Japanese games have stayed pretty much the same as they always were.  Meanwhile, western game producers have come into their own, and they've improved everything, AND they're making games that fit the western sense of style much better than Japanese producers can.  
 
I really see this as a divergence of culture.  Their culture has gone further down the road of over the top, emo brooding.  That's still popular there.  Meanwhile, Western culture has moved in the opposite direction.  So the Japanese are suffering from Western culture taking left turn, Eastern taking a right turn, and also they are getting trounced (mostly) in terms of game design by a now powerful Western development community.  
 
Further, if you can put "you are" in place of "your" in your sentences, then you should use "you're".  If "you are" doesn't make sense in place of "your", then you use "your".   IE,  you're crazy.  You're trying to say, "you are" crazy, so you use "you're" not "your".  If you were saying, "your sister is crazy", "you are" doesn't fit (you are sister is crazy) so you use "your".  Sorry, not trying to be an Internet ahole, just trying to help.  If you take a few minutes to process that, you'll never screw it up again.  You're going to have a great life with your new skills.
 
edit: Ironically Deadly Premonition is one of my favorite games stylistically this gen.  It's copying western culture (Twin Peaks) and adding in some Japanese flair.  So it's got this super strange feel to it.  It is a good example of bad game mechanics, full of clunk and gunk though.  I still enjoyed the hell out of it though.  In fact, it may be my favorite Japanese game this gen behind MGS4.

In before mass flood of the vocal minority weebos.

" @Shirogane said:

" Go play EvE? Oh yay, 10 months in, and i'm still not getting anywhere!  Or try out space sims or other sim type games?  But do people complain about these? No. Not all games should be the same. There are games where you can jump in play a bit staright away, and there are games where you're supposed to put lots of time in. It's like everybody wants every game to be exactly the same these days. "

Look, it really comes down to your personal preference, thats why the title says "My Problem..." not "The Problem...", because its how I feel. If people like games with slow starts then more power to them. In fact I do enjoy games were your suppose to put a lot of time and effort in them, but I want to be having fun while I'm doing that. If  I'm not enjoying myself while I'm grinding in EvE (which I have played), then I'm just going to quit. Like I said, its my personal preference. "

" @rhodric said:

" so 3 rpgs, which are slow by nature btw, gave you that impression about japanese gaming in general? I'd love to get 3 doctors over to your house right now and take a giant shit on your lawn. that way you might make some equally wild generalization about doctors being douchebags and never go to the hospital again, thus causing you to die a agonizing death. "

Ok first off, chill the fuck out. Second, I gave 3 examples to keep it short but, of have played tons of Japanese games, and their slow pacing bothers me. that is all. As I said in the blog, I LOVE all those games I mentioned.  
 
@Video_Game_King said:

" Why do people keep saying, "You're still learning stuff by chapter 11?" That makes it sound like the game stupidly paces the gameplay so that you can't use items until chapter 10 or some shit. It's one thing, people! One thing! You learn pretty much everything you need to know before the first disc is over. Also, what 8-hour tutorial are you talking about? I can't remember an f'ing thing like that. On topic, your complaint seems to be pacing, which I can see in some games. Like Final Fantasy XIII. Yes, I defended it, but I can criticize it, can't I? "

The 8 hour tutorial I'm referring to the opening of Kingdom Hearts II with Roxas. You run around twilight town doing pointless things that have nothing to do with the plot what so ever. And so know, I love Final Fantasy XIII. I just thought the opening was slow gameplay wise. "