The gaming industry is generic and immature.

Hail all,

There's been some change of late. THQ shuttered, and there's actually a pretty good look at why right here on GB.

Surely as a corporate they made misteps, threw money at dead projects and kept making kids games even when the kids started playing in browsers and mobiles. Suddenly Fruit Ninja and Angry Birds was eating into their bottom line, and in the last few years there were less original games coming out.

But that wasn't always the case. They made heaps of great games, and even started some franchises in the sixth and early seventh generation. Games like Red Faction changed for the better, there was the brilliance of Company of Heroes, and weirdness in Saints Row and Destroy All Humans.

After THQ was no more, quite a few of their games found new homes - and I'm happy to see that South Park: The Stick of Truth and Company of Heroes 2 are safe. But the loss of Darksiders doesn't bode well for the industry - and that's something that a champion of the industry should be promoting, rather than degrading.

Yet I'm hearing from multiple developers, with the loudest voice being CliffyB's that Saints Row would be a better title if it got rid of it's "signature" weapon, the giant purple dildo bat.

I don't think so. Get rid of that, get rid of the gimps and hos... and what you have is another GTA clone. Perhaps a great clone, but one reeking of "me too" and devoid of any real identity. Koch Media paid a pretty penny for Saints Row (as well as the developer Volition and franchise Metro) for the very reason that it's unique.

Calling it immature - I turn it around on him by questioning Bulletstorm, a game called out by the NRA for all the wrong reasons.

Surely our games do need to grow up, we're still seeing drek like Dead or Alive: Xtreme 2 and Duke Nukem Forever, (mind you, these are big name releases from big name studios that also failed commercially), but the point being that games, especially on consoles and whenever I wander into a games store, are seen as a masochistic, masculine, boys club activities with a strict "look, but don't touch" attitude towards the girls.

Perhaps that's why they're seen as sex objects in so many games, and hey lets not forget the way the internet acted like a dick to Anita Sarkeesian, who was only trying to explore this.

The industry needs to be known for Journey and Heavy Rain and Saints Row The Third equally. It shouldn't have to explain for Saint's Row because it's an equal opportunity offender.

And it's a riot to play.

And that's the attitude that Koch Media is apparently taking towards the series - it's original, fun and over the top, but it's not pretentious or seedy.

And it's that originality that the game industry needs, lest we all be inundated with GTA and Call of Duty clones.

The games industry needs to show that it can have it's flight of fancy - and bank on a game which isn't hard-set by what game-testing is saying is the next big thing.

It can have it's cake (mmmm, cake) and eat it too. A great idea shouldn't be ignored if market research is pointing towards a tried and tested concept. Even if it's immature, is it any more immature by ignoring their own sense of creativity?

But that's not to say that there isn't a responsibility to be shared. For surely if the games industry is to be seen on the same platform as other entertainment media then it needs to shed it's image as a place only for the boys.

Cheers,

Senno.

yes.

To say that's all Saints Row has is to give an insult and ignore the serious and thoughtful design that went in to it. You can retain that without the immature or vulgar nature of some of its content. I don't want to be the one to decide what stays and what goes. It can happen naturally.

Also, in defense of Cliffy and bulletstorm, that wasn't his game. He's just a face man. In his design work for Gears of War I doubt it was his job to suggest "we need more fucks here". I doubt he's willing to decry his former studio either.

Good blog, mate

Let's be honest here. Saint's Row is an immature game. It's a crass, toilet humor, vulgar power trip.

Ciffy B is the pot calling the kettle black though. You could say everyone of those things about Bulletstorm. And the Gears series is dudebros is space armor with chainsaws.

My point is, is that there is nothing really wrong with that. Just because these things sell well doesn't mean that everyone that buys them and everyone that makes them have the same mentality the games present.

I don't even find that kind of humor funny, I just can't bring myself to make a big deal out of it.

@WMWA: Thank you.

@AlisterCat:I'm not suggesting that Cliff himself designed or created Bulletstorm, but he did rubber-stamp it and it's in his game-making credentials. He was Design director for the publisher, giving his consent over the game and how it was done. How much involvement I can't say, but it's there. Far from being the only man in control, I'm sure there is a team of designers and producers who helped create their titles - game testing and market research are great tools for these gentlemen, after all. Yet notice that there is a huge shift from the early 90's onwards in his games, and in gaming in general? There is no strong female lead, and that is compounded by the industry in general, which of course lead to the infamous Dead Island: Riptide scandal. I was just using his name as an example, and because of comments I read from him on Twitter. As someone who has enjoyed his games and as someone who is influential and is such a public face, I was dismayed to see he'd rather less originality and more pretension. There's a fine line between being profitable and being credible.

Your topic title is generic and immature.
 
I fully agree though, people complain about the silliest thing. They don't want sequels/clones but their comments make it sound like they do. If game A steals a mechanics it's great and unique copycatting for the good. If Game B does it OHGODTHEINTERNETISTOOSMALLFORTHISOUTRAGE. It's nonsense. 
 
Oh and one thing, which is a thing I've been living by for ages now, let's just ignore what developers and other game personalities have to say about what THEY think is important to games. Because whatever Cliffy thinks of Saints Row, and no matter the high amount of respect I have for him, what he says there is his opinion and I choose not to be afflicted by it.

@Senno said:

The industry needs to be known for Saints Row The Third

NOPE!

@BlastProcessing said:

@Senno said:

The industry needs to be known for Saints Row The Third

NOPE!

Don't bring that Anita moron into this, she doesn't need your protection and frankly deserves whatever she gets after that scam.

@Senno said:

Perhaps that's why they're seen as sex objects in so many games, and hey lets not forget the way the internet acted like a dick to Anita Sarkeesian, who was only trying to explore this.

Wanna know why they are seen as sex objects? Because advertising, television, music, cinema over the last 100 years.

I have to imagine the Dead or Alive creators would be pretty flattered if you seriously think that series has anything to do with it.

@Sooty: Ssssssssssssssssssssssh. Ignoooooooore it.

@hughesman: Thank you for understanding that an immature game can have a place at the table. As long as it's trying something different than I'm more willing to forgive a game's flaws. Saint's Row The Third isn't perfect (what game is), but it is fully invested in it's world. There's something to be said for a game so outrageous that one of gamings biggest champions is trying to take it down a notch just as most of the industry agree that Saint's Row was the prime item on THQ's default. Obviously it's not for everyone, and even all of the content isn't for everyone (never got into those sewerage truck missions), but it does have it's place, and thankfully Koch Media seems to agree.

@TaliciaDragonsong: Indeed. I was hard pressed to find a topic title that summed up the post in a short and attention-grabbing manner while still being true to it's content. I know I've seen some forumers post a topic that has nothing to do with it's content. Generic as it may be - it grabbed your attention, didn't it?

We each have an opinion. I for one enjoy the Legend of Zelda and Pokemon games, but not to the extent that others do. I love the Oddworld series and Pac-man, two franchises whose themes are completely at odds. I'm sure I'll enjoy GTA 5 and yet playing as a cop in Sleeping Dogs was a great deal of fun too. You can have an appreciable view on games who's ideologies are pathologically different, or even the same.

But I wont stick my head in the sand over a developers thoughts. The industry needs to be accountable by the gamers alone, and they should be demanding that designers try new things - always. It's why I respect Double Fine - for allowing their creative team to take risks. The same reason why Kojima Productions is so well respected - because the team loves the game and believes in it - bringing what they know and their ideas to the table.

If a developer wants to believe that a game series that they don't develop needs to change in order to be more appealing in the face of outside scrutiny, than by all means - say it. But I say don't be afraid when people start to question your motives.

@BlastProcessing: Please don't misconstrue my thoughts. Saints Row The Third isn't a game that should be paraded as representative of gaming any more than Pac-man should be. But the idea behind it - the original premise and the fun gameplay, have a place in the industry as much as critical darlings like Heavy Rain and Journey.

@Senno said:

@BlastProcessing: Please don't misconstrue my thoughts. Saints Row The Third isn't a game that should be paraded as representative of gaming any more than Pac-man should be. But the idea behind it - the original premise and the fun gameplay, have a place in the industry as much as critical darlings like Heavy Rain and Journey.

It's had the same "original premise and fun gameplay" since the first game. If anything, its predecessors deserve the recognition. They were superior in nearly every department. And also there was more to them than dildo bats and other bits of LOL SO RANDUMB xD humor.

Sure, the attempts at serious storytelling were average, but its mix of seriousness and absurd humor worked.

Why can't people just play video games? Who cares about what some tired out face-man has to say about something. Who cares about some scam artist. Play video games. Fuck the rest.

@BlastProcessing: Of course, all praise to where the franchise began, but even so, a sequel doesn't have to be beheld to it's forebear.

Take for instance, Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. A sequel, and yet it embraces it's past while making drastic changes to it's gameplay. Far Cry 2 did the same. So did GTA 3. And so on. Saints Row the Third is being mentioned because Cliff Bleszinski is the one who mentioned it - and I took it from there to the post's natural conclusion. We're in agreement that there is more to the game than what it is well known for. If anything, the high price paid by Koch Media shows that there is something of value beyond its absurd sense of humour.

@Yadilie: Why can't we? Well, we are on a forum to discuss games. And why not question the industry? We are it's gamers - we are it's most devoted supporters. We are the ones who spend our dollars and our time and who should be asking the questions. It's why forums like this exist and thrive. Should game developers not have their judgement consulted? Or are they above the petty concerns of the gamer?

Don't forget that the voice of the gamer is strong and powerful, and can be used for both the powers of good and evil. Anita didn't deserve the massive backlash she got. And Cliff Bleszinski should be asked what their motives are to stifle creative freedom.

I feel like there are movies that on the surface seem like Saints Row, but have as much depth to their humor, but are equally maligned by those not in the know. it's going to come with the territory, and those making it and those playing it should know that.

@Senno:

No, the voice of annoying and loud people who really don't give a shit about said video game but feel the need to complain about a problem that is not there is the "strong" and "powerful" voice you're talking about. Voice of the gamer does nothing to stop Microsoft's breaks on fees to developers to get exclusive DLC. Does nothing to stop micro-transactions ruining the immersion of a franchise where the very basis of it was to not have anything overly obtrusive. It does nothing to stop the malicious destruction of treasured IPs like Crash Bandicoot. It does nothing to stop the maligned tumor that is Nintendo Shovelware consoles. It does nothing to tell a game company that your brawler game has absolutely no fucking characters in it and they need more actual Playstation characters.

What do we get? People talking more about bullshit feminism and sexism than about actual games. Forums and imageboards used to be about talking about video games. Now it's all pseudo-politics and "Your rights stop where my feelings begin".

Also Saints Row is fine. Cliffy B is an idiot. No video game should change because someone is too embarrassed about it. And there is nothing to be embarrassed about a giant dildo. This isn't fucking 2nd grade. They exist Cliffy B. It's just another massively glaring issue about the United States and the massive polarization that one country can be when compared to others. Cliffy B thinks it's fine to chainsaw a dude in two but dildos are over the line? I don't even understand how one can come to a conclusion like that. Guy just needs to actually take his sabbatical like he said he was and stop chirping in on video games.

Also, I need to stop coming online after work. Brain is going in like 4 different directions at the same time with thoughts.

@Senno: I'm, not sure you wanna use masochistic there, maybe you meant misogynistic? There are a lot of self-hating gamers out there, but probably very few masochists.

@Yadilie said:

@Senno:

No, the voice of annoying and loud people who really don't give a shit about said video game but feel the need to complain about a problem that is not there is the "strong" and "powerful" voice you're talking about. Voice of the gamer does nothing to stop Microsoft's breaks on fees to developers to get exclusive DLC. Does nothing to stop micro-transactions ruining the immersion of a franchise where the very basis of it was to not have anything overly obtrusive. It does nothing to stop the malicious destruction of treasured IPs like Crash Bandicoot. It does nothing to stop the maligned tumor that is Nintendo Shovelware consoles. It does nothing to tell a game company that your brawler game has absolutely no fucking characters in it and they need more actual Playstation characters.

What do we get? People talking more about bullshit feminism and sexism than about actual games. Forums and imageboards used to be about talking about video games. Now it's all pseudo-politics and "Your rights stop where my feelings begin".

Also Saints Row is fine. Cliffy B is an idiot. No video game should change because someone is too embarrassed about it. And there is nothing to be embarrassed about a giant dildo. This isn't fucking 2nd grade. They exist Cliffy B. It's just another massively glaring issue about the United States and the massive polarization that one country can be when compared to others. Cliffy B thinks it's fine to chainsaw a dude in two but dildos are over the line? I don't even understand how one can come to a conclusion like that. Guy just needs to actually take his sabbatical like he said he was and stop chirping in on video games.

Also, I need to stop coming online after work. Brain is going in like 4 different directions at the same time with thoughts.

I don't know man, I just woke up this morning and you've hit the nail on the head there. For all the voicing that's going on, none of it's seemed to actually change gaming for the better. In a sea of people voicing their opinion, developer usually end up listening to the wrong ones anyways.

Look at MMORPG's for instance. I used to love them back in the day. But unfortunately they kept listening to the whining idiots who wanted more balance to the classes and easier traveling, mobs, etc. Now in MMORPG's there are 8 classes that all play the same with different animations. You can solo through the whole games, fast travel anywhere for any reason, and so on.

Listening to people "voice" their opinion is what gets developers into trouble in the first place.

@Jams:

I hate PvPers. They ruined World of Warcraft.

That's "GEN-eric"

@Yadilie said:

@Senno:

No, the voice of annoying and loud people who really don't give a shit about said video game but feel the need to complain about a problem that is not there is the "strong" and "powerful" voice you're talking about. Voice of the gamer does nothing to stop Microsoft's breaks on fees to developers to get exclusive DLC. Does nothing to stop micro-transactions ruining the immersion of a franchise where the very basis of it was to not have anything overly obtrusive. It does nothing to stop the malicious destruction of treasured IPs like Crash Bandicoot. It does nothing to stop the maligned tumor that is Nintendo Shovelware consoles. It does nothing to tell a game company that your brawler game has absolutely no fucking characters in it and they need more actual Playstation characters.

What do we get? People talking more about bullshit feminism and sexism than about actual games. Forums and imageboards used to be about talking about video games. Now it's all pseudo-politics and "Your rights stop where my feelings begin".

Also Saints Row is fine. Cliffy B is an idiot. No video game should change because someone is too embarrassed about it. And there is nothing to be embarrassed about a giant dildo. This isn't fucking 2nd grade. They exist Cliffy B. It's just another massively glaring issue about the United States and the massive polarization that one country can be when compared to others. Cliffy B thinks it's fine to chainsaw a dude in two but dildos are over the line? I don't even understand how one can come to a conclusion like that. Guy just needs to actually take his sabbatical like he said he was and stop chirping in on video games.

Also, I need to stop coming online after work. Brain is going in like 4 different directions at the same time with thoughts.

You practically took the mic here. Big wigs complain, high-profile people in the industry talk shit, and the internet fires up these miserable emo-political threads that are just ridiculous. Meanwhile the actual business in normal/big budget games go about their daily business, hardly batting an eye to these talks, but paying close attention to the ever-changing landscape of their economy. Some want to make something new and creative, others are in it for the money, and this is nothing of a surprise.

Of course, there is the world of smaller budgets and tiny developers making some radically different, offensive-yet-awesome games too. Unlike before, there is now a huge boom for this sort of alternative outlet, which is more accessible to consumers than ever. They also get shit for it too from other mouths, but that doesn't stop scene from producing whatever they feel like making. People complain, games are made, creativity lives, and the only thing different is a now hyper-sensitive community. Just play games, Senno.

Saints Row the Third is a GTA clone with a purple dildo bat. You said it yourself here:

I don't think so. Get rid of that, get rid of the gimps and hos... and what you have is another GTA clone.

It's not original, and I don't see how you can hold that game in a good light when talking about maturity. It's a (not-funny) game that revels in its audacity. Doesn't hurt that I don't like SR3 either.

I also see the name "Heavy Rain" being thrown around. I haven't played that but from what I know about it, it's all Quicktime Events, and I don't think that should be representative of video games either. I'm not saying that it can't exist, but if you want a game that shows "maturity", then it must be a game and not a bunch of "press the right button" sequences.

Journey, on the other hand - that game is brilliant.

@Ghost_Cat: But I am playing games. I'm playing "Unreasonable Grind: Wrath of the Grind". Just tired of hearing moaning about shit that doesn't matter in the industry. Making mountains out of worthless specks of molecules.

@believer258: But all video games are "press the right button" sequences. And Heavy Rain is a majority of contextual events with quicktimes in the more action scenes. It's a bad game for bit of reasons but it's still a game. You can't really pick and choose. Sadly. Especially seeing as how the state of the industry is that things like The Walking Dead are deemed to have amazing writing. Which is just outright shocking and baffles me.

@believer258 said:

Saints Row the Third is a GTA clone with a purple dildo bat. You said it yourself here:

I don't think so. Get rid of that, get rid of the gimps and hos... and what you have is another GTA clone.

It's not original, and I don't see how you can hold that game in a good light when talking about maturity. It's a (not-funny) game that revels in its audacity. Doesn't hurt that I don't like SR3 either.

Someone stating his dissenting opinion as fact on the internet... how original.

Yes, saints row isn't serious and ''mature'' but why should it be? We have TWD, cart life, journey, spec ops and a buttload of others for that.

@Yadilie: Whoops, that last bit was directed at Senno, not you (corrected). But yeah, everyone play them vidagames. They're fun.

People don't like the dildo thing because it's lazy humor, not because it's offensive. Its a cheap joke that works for about two minutes and isn't much funnier than a big gummy worm would be. Honestly, its just the way it jiggles and smacks into things that got me giggling.

I don't remember Cliffy saying Saints Row needs to be a serious title, just do away with cheap gags.

And maybe be paced like a product for human enjoyment.

How long is it gonna before idiots to stop calling open world crime games GTA clones?

Every FPS is a Doom clone, then.

@MordeaniisChaos said:

And maybe be paced like a product for human enjoyment.

I agree with you up until here. What does that even mean?

@RollingZeppelin said:

@MordeaniisChaos said:

And maybe be paced like a product for human enjoyment.

I agree with you up until here. What does that even mean?

It means that Saints Row the Third was way too long for how many worthwhile moments it had. There were way too many mediocre to bad filler moments in that game. Too many overly long sequences (I don't need to spend 10 minutes shooting guys in a dropping tank. 30 seconds? awesome! Doing it more than once and having each time way drawn out? Not so awesome.) If they had compressed the game down, just kept the really awesome bits, it would have made an awesome game. The pacing was just too undisciplined, and the game didn't quite earn it's length.

@LaserLambert: Indeed. In every entertainment medium you will find a percentage of people who just don't "get" a certain product or image. Saints Row the Third is one game that fits this mold.

@Yadilie: I can name numerous points when gamers have given a voice and developers have responded. Lets look at Dragon Age 2 - Bioware responded after it's release and are working towards making DA3 better for it. Mass Effect 3 ending bothered enough people that they extended it for players for free. Command and Conquer wasn't going to have a campaign - until gamers found out. Ubisoft decided to remove it's DRM.

These are just off the top of my head. Gamers have a voice, and in many cases the developers are listening. I'm not suggesting that ultimate change can happen, as there are limits and we are talking about their livelihoods here, but look at Oblivion's Horse Armor DLC. After the backlash, the following DLC was larger and more bang for your buck.

I've already linked to Anita before, so I won't need to again, but what I typed wasn't so much about her, but as an example of just the power that the internet has. This is someone who only wanted to explore this issue, and asked for a very minor stipend to do so. The dicks of the internet harassed her on a massive scale, and it wasn't in any way warranted. Now I can understand with someone like Jack Thompson (who really is a dick), but there is the example.

And I agree, there is a place for Saints Row. The gaming industry has a place for Saints Row as much as Journey and Heavy Rain. TV has Jackass, cinema has Scary Movie (and it's ilk), music has One Direction. They all are a part of the industry, and while we may not highlight them, they should be available for suitable audiences.

@RollingZeppelin: No I did mean masochistic, but misogynistic works very well in the context. Thanks.

@Jams: As games develop they generally get easier, not harder. Remember that after 8 years, gamers are more familiar with a game's systems then ever. Therefore the initial challenge isn't there and the developer must come up with new ways to play and new challenges. Blizzard is open about listening to their community and taking on board feedback, but this shouldn't come at the expense of all the games systems. They need to have faith in their own work to.

@Ghost_Cat: I am playing games, and enjoying them. My currently played list includes Far Cry 3, Ni No Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch and Plants vs Zombies. However to suggest that we ignore gaming trends and patterns and just play the games is in effect asking me to put my head in the sand. Which is something that I won't do. This is an industry I've grown up with and played for 3 decades. I love the fact that digital distribution and mobile gives developers a chance to try out new ideas, and some fantastic games have resulted. I loved Bastion, Fez and Portal, and Peggle is one of the best games ever. And the Walking Dead was better than I could have imagined, and is a perfect example of allowing the audience to help propel the way a developer can create. Keeping an open dialogue with your audience is crucial to a games success with smaller developers, and shouldn't be ignored for even the big releases. An educated community can only make the games we play better.

@believer258: Exactly. I said there was a place for that type of game as long as it keeps it's identity. With THQ folded I'm glad to see that Koch Media has paid a high price to keep the game's originality in place. I wouldn't hold it on the same pedestal as games like Heavy Rain and Journey, as it's not the best representation for our industry, but it deserves a place at the table because it's trying something different and it's an equal opportunity offender. And as for Heavy Rain, you haven't played it, and so you don't know how deep and enjoyable the experience it is. Heavy Rain is critically acclaimed for it's entire experience, not just it's gameplay (which I admit is a little light, but it isn't only QTE). Its something the developer Quantic Dream have received backlash for in their previous game Indigo Prohecy/Fahrenheit, but for someone who can create atmosphere, they are among the best. Check out their tech demo "Kara" or their upcoming Beyond: Two Souls and tell me that such a high profile developer taking on such an unusual premise and property isn't someone to hold to high esteem.

@MordeaniisChaos: I agree that Saints Row the Third is uneven. It's lengthy and repetitive, but there are definitely sequences which are great fun. The game is designed for playing with buddies together, and while it is cheap thrills, at least it has the backbone to have it's own identity. In an industry which is beleaguered by developers and an audience which wants more of the same, Saints Row is forging its own path. I wouldn't put it on a pedestal, but the gaming industry shouldn't have to apologise for allowing itself to be immature and poke fun at itself. I've enjoyed beating up strangers in the game with the giant purple dildo bat for brief moments, and thats the beauty of open world games - that there are so many opportunities and ways to play. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but then it doesn't have any pretensions about being so. I see it as a fun, brief gameplay filler between meatier games and the industry should allow games that have an identity a place.

Get over it

@Senno: I've yet to see anyone I would ever take seriously say that Saints Row shouldn't be Saints Row. There are a few really excellent bits in that game, and those things make stuff like the big purple dildo feel cheap and lazy. I think you're reading into a very specific issue and acting like saying "dude, dildo humor is pretty dumb even when you put effort into it, just putting a dildo into the game is even lazier" is saying "dude, fuck this game it's so immature and dumb."

Also, it IS immature. Who cares if some guy thinks that kind of stuff should be avoided? It's not immature to say that a dildo bat is immature, because it is. It's silly, and kind of funny, but it's more stupid than anything else. It feels like it came from marketing more than anything.

@Senno said:

Hail all,

There's been some change of late. THQ shuttered, and there's actually a pretty good look at why right here on GB.

Surely as a corporate they made misteps, threw money at dead projects and kept making kids games even when the kids started playing in browsers and mobiles. Suddenly Fruit Ninja and Angry Birds was eating into their bottom line, and in the last few years there were less original games coming out.

But that wasn't always the case. They made heaps of great games, and even started some franchises in the sixth and early seventh generation. Games like Red Faction changed for the better, there was the brilliance of Company of Heroes, and weirdness in Saints Row and Destroy All Humans.

After THQ was no more, quite a few of their games found new homes - and I'm happy to see that South Park: The Stick of Truth and Company of Heroes 2 are safe. But the loss of Darksiders doesn't bode well for the industry - and that's something that a champion of the industry should be promoting, rather than degrading.

Yet I'm hearing from multiple developers, with the loudest voice being CliffyB's that Saints Row would be a better title if it got rid of it's "signature" weapon, the giant purple dildo bat.

I don't think so. Get rid of that, get rid of the gimps and hos... and what you have is another GTA clone. Perhaps a great clone, but one reeking of "me too" and devoid of any real identity. Koch Media paid a pretty penny for Saints Row (as well as the developer Volition and franchise Metro) for the very reason that it's unique.

Calling it immature - I turn it around on him by questioning Bulletstorm, a game called out by the NRA for all the wrong reasons.

Surely our games do need to grow up, we're still seeing drek like Dead or Alive: Xtreme 2 and Duke Nukem Forever, (mind you, these are big name releases from big name studios that also failed commercially), but the point being that games, especially on consoles and whenever I wander into a games store, are seen as a masochistic, masculine, boys club activities with a strict "look, but don't touch" attitude towards the girls.

Perhaps that's why they're seen as sex objects in so many games, and hey lets not forget the way the internet acted like a dick to Anita Sarkeesian, who was only trying to explore this.

The industry needs to be known for Journey and Heavy Rain and Saints Row The Third equally. It shouldn't have to explain for Saint's Row because it's an equal opportunity offender.

And it's a riot to play.

And that's the attitude that Koch Media is apparently taking towards the series - it's original, fun and over the top, but it's not pretentious or seedy.

And it's that originality that the game industry needs, lest we all be inundated with GTA and Call of Duty clones.

The games industry needs to show that it can have it's flight of fancy - and bank on a game which isn't hard-set by what game-testing is saying is the next big thing.

It can have it's cake (mmmm, cake) and eat it too. A great idea shouldn't be ignored if market research is pointing towards a tried and tested concept. Even if it's immature, is it any more immature by ignoring their own sense of creativity?

But that's not to say that there isn't a responsibility to be shared. For surely if the games industry is to be seen on the same platform as other entertainment media then it needs to shed it's image as a place only for the boys.

Cheers,

Senno.

All media has their "immature" and "mature" content, this does not only pertain to video games. Immature people play games, there need to be and are games that entertain them. This also goes for "mature" gamers. Their are lots of outlets for both groups. And the industry is know for games like Mario, Portal, and Halo, not the "drek" like DoA or Duke Nukem, in fact those games are ridiculed by all but the people who enjoy them. Games like Journey and The Walking dead cleaned house when it game to Game of the Year selections.

You're claiming the industry needs to fix an image that it has been fixing for years now. Bold.

Generic?

@Feanor: I replied to someone else earlier a comment that makes it clear that video games aren't the only medium upon which you will find immature titles. Jackass, Scary Movie and One Direction are clearly low brow, market researched and often carbon copies with little thought to the strengths of their media or their audience. I don't suggest that the industry needs to change that image - it's actually doing exceptionally well over the last few years, and I even mentioned some fantastic titles which bode well for our industries future. My actual purpose was to suggest that the originality of games like Portal, Saints Row and the like should be more embraced, rather than the next Call of Duty or Fifa. We should all be playing more original titles.

@JasonR86: Read through what I typed. I'm seeing a lot of games coming out that are very "me too", or have clearly spent an age in market research. This has diluted some franchises like Splinter Cell and Ghost Recon, made Call of Duty a sales phenomenon while playing cookie cutter action sequences, and even hurt long running franchises like Need for Speed and SSX. Look at the difference between Dead Space and Dead Space 3. Between Warcraft 2 and 3, and WoW. Between Guitar Hero and Guitar Hero 5 (which ended up killing itself). It's even killed critical darlings like Oddworld and Freespace. I am suggesting that gamers should enjoy what they want, but there are games out there that are trying something different and they're worth a look.

@MordeaniisChaos: Perhaps your right. I guess with THQ, I'm sad to see such a daring publisher go. I felt the same with Acclaim, about Gamecock, and I'm sure I'll feel the same about the next mid level publisher that takes a chance. In the end, will we only be left with EA and Activision? Will there be a place for the Codemasters and Segas of this world? Or are they destined to the same fate?