The Ultimate Ending Discussion (SPOILERS)

@brotherbran: It is fun, no doubt, but I can't help but feel like it barely answers anything and only opens up more questions. What does the real BB do from the end of V to the end of MGS4 if Venom is the guy in charge during MG1 and 2?

Also, some 1440p screenshots I took through the game for anyone who's interested - http://imgur.com/a/e1odv

@sinjunb: basically the same thing as diamond dogs, they each create outer heaven, the patch on venom snakes arm changes to outer heaven in the final scene, and the timeline confirms that solid snake kills him in metal gear1, and kills big boss in MG2, but the patriots save him and keep him in the suspended animation BS until MGS4

@grixxel: The "you need to create your character because YOU'RE Big Boss" is not an argument because Raiden was also a player avatar and you didn't need to create him.

All the more reason for "The Medic" to have been Raiden's dad (think about it).

One of my favorite games of the year, but felt like the ending was a wet fart. Just kinda felt like chapter 2 was slapped together. Starts with some good build up and then *pffffbblltt* by about half way through.

Only thing I don't understand about it is doesn't Ocelot tell the real Big Boss that he's going to get cosmetic surgery to look like my avatar? When Ocelot handed him the passport? Did I make that part up, or did it actually happen?

It's kind of a bummer how the story just peters out though! I think I would have liked it a lot better if mission 51 made it in. Would have been nice to have a big climactic fight at the end. It's one thing if KojiPro had made the deliberate choice to deny you a climactic fight, but to know that there was supposed to be one and it's just not in the game.... it sucks!

Posting from another thread because I didn't notice this thread already existed.

Didn't care for it at all. It just felt like Kojima put his desire to pull off a clever trick before concocting a story fans would enjoy. He pulled the same shit in Sons of Liberty, and I didn't appreciate it then either. The thing I've come away from this game feeling is that Metal Gear doesn't need Kojima in order to continue to exist. It may even be better off without him.

The game was marketed on the premise that the story would be surrounding the events of Big Boss becoming the villain of the series - instead we get NONE of that other than a throwaway line about the real Boss being off doing his own shit, while we play some side story that means nothing to the overall timeline other than what was subtly retconned in this game. Again, if this was the Truth all along then it's the Truth because Kojima wanted to be clever, nothing more. The final cassette tapes upon completing the Truth mission are like a band-aid on a missing limb, they do nothing to ease the Phantom Pain. Kojima played us like a damn fiddle.

Still, the gameplay was phenomenal. That's an awesome foundation for whatever comes next.

I will say, this is one of the few qualities about Kojima's story creation that I actually like. It's good to deny fans what they want! There's a million things out there that just give fans what they want, random batman comics or anime or whatever. Everyone just gives the fans what they want and it's boring that way. This is what I think Metal Gear's story will miss the most if the series continues in a non-pachislot capacity.

This. People are all sad that they didn't get to play "the fall of Big Boss." Those people are fools. That's what they get for expecting something out of a man who's known for selling you a bill of goods and then pulling the rug out from under you.

The thing that can be taken issue with, though, is how he pulls the rug out.

@lucien_lachance said:

No they're not. The fools are the ones who convince themselves they like it better this way because it's clever. Opinions. He didn't pull any of this stuff in most of his games, so to say we should expect it is unwarranted, especially when considering how the game was marketed.

@cale: MGS2 was marketed with scenes that straight up weren't in the game/deliberately changed to obfuscate the twist. That only needs to happen once for you to realize not to take an MGS game's marketing at face value.

Also, people are mad that Quiet was taken away from them, apparently? They'll be real disappointed by the FFVII remake, then.

@lucien_lachance said:

The truth is I didn't take it at face value, I did suspect something was up when everyone was doing a deep-dive on the chopper medic over a year ago, but I'm not gonna lie and say I'm happy that Kojima got one over on me again. It's not a difficult thing to do from his position, nor is it something I particularly admire or appreciate in any way. I don't think it was bold, or even novel. It was simply a decision, one where I feel he put his creative desires ahead of everything else. He's earned the right to do that, no question, but it just left me feeling like I no longer care that he's lost creative control over the series. Before the game came out I felt he is these games, you can't make them without him, whereas now I'm more interested in seeing what someone else can do with Metal Gear.

@cale: Fair enough, but in this world where everything is played so safe and has to be marketed with such mass appeal, it's refreshing to see someone with the moxy to make insane, polarizing moves like this. It's not quite to the "burn this shit to the fucking ground" extent that MGS2 was, but MGS2 was an anomaly the likes of which has not been seen before or since in any medium. The only thing I can think of that even comes close to MGS2 is Hitchcock's Psycho. But I digress.

Did anyone else really sorry for V Snake? Also, Quiet was done a disservice with her appearance. I dismissed her because of her silly outfit, but after having her on my team, and getting to know her better, I've strangely become attached to her. The rain scene, should have been a sweet little moment between two soldiers who understand each other, but was kinda ruined with her outfit =/ Shame really.

The thing that bugs me is I have no idea if I'm done. There are so many credit sequences and somewhat hidden game defining missions in Chapter 2 that I'm worried I didn't notice or even passed over something.

The Truth mission or how "Man Who Sold The World" foreshadows more than you would ever guess: Check!

Sad Paz side story: check!

Quiet's also sad epilogue: check!

Huey stuff: check!

And yet somehow I'm still supposed to get my hands on a nuke?! I could swear there were some cutscenes I never saw. Is there like a big mission for D-Dog's backstory? I could swear I saw Code Talker sitting on a roof of the Command Platform while I flying away one time and I want to know what that was about!

According to the tapes: with the success of FSLN in overthrowing Anastasio Somoza Debayle as leader of Nicaragua in 1979, Amanda is regarded as a war hero giving her enough sway to have the Mammal Pod and apparently The Boss' bandanna pulled out of Lake Nicaragua for Strangelove.

That's the mission that makes sure she's gone forever.

Yeah, poor guy. I think I put too much into the character creation process for my Venom Snake. I think the game uses your location for the passport so when I saw that my Venom Snake was from California my imagination just went full speed ahead into the tragical history of MSF medic and Columbian-American dual citizen Thomas Larkin. So, yeah I probably forced alot of sympathy on myself for that character.

Also I'm really glad not everyone is throwing the baby out with the bathwater on Quiet. She's an interesting character ruined by over-sexualization. And I secretly want a spin off game that like Revengeance is originally supposed to be about what she did before the game but midway through development is changed to be about her adventures after somehow living through MGSV. She's badass enough for a Platinum game, right? Make one of her unlockable outfits Bayonetta's getup. They both have butterfly themes.

What? Are you kidding me? If this is the last MGS game, leaving it on a note where absolutely nothing is resolved and only more questions are asked is insane, and all of the marketing for this advertised that we'll see Big Boss turning into a villain. Instead we just got some plot twist bullshit that really didn't need to happen. Like really, what is gained from a reveal that you're playing as a body double other than explaining why Venom behaved very unlike Big Boss throughout all of MGSV? I don't see why fans are fools for expecting a story that wasn't totally underdeveloped and bad in ways MGS has never been before. They've always been very satisfying and meaty experiences - MGS5 was sparse, flat, unfinished, and ended in a way that diminished the already very lackluster plot.

From a narrative and cinematic point of view, this was a huge disappointment. From a gameplay point of view, it was a triumph and easily the best MGS game to date. It's one of the biggest mixed bags I can remember.

In my fantasy world, the Phantom Pain Big Boss went on to create Outer Heaven. While the real Big Boss retired to California and got a job working for the VA and had 3 kids who he is very proud of. Expect Justin, that lazy asshole needs to move out and get a real job... I'm glad they didn't have a Darth Vader fall in this; this games all about absolutist ideology, which The Boss was against. Big Boss or Zero never thought they were bad guys, in their eyes they were both serving humanity and doing the "right" thing. Much like taking care of a sick child and forcing them to take cough syrup they were forcing the world to drink the bitter medicine they concocted. While The Boss believed that everyone needs to find whats right for themselves.

But I'm confused about one thing, why would Zero send Paz to kill BB in Peace Walker but try so hard to save his life in MGS5? Also why was Paz so worried about BB's well being when Skull-Face was interrogating her? It makes no sense to me.

More cut stuff has surfaced. I think people would have accepted the ending more after hearing this: https://a.pomf.cat/abcyrl.mp4
It's safe. I checked.

That's awesome. There's a criminally small amount of super flowery philosophical dialogue coming out of Snake in this game. (Maybe that's why it wasn't put in? Because Venom isn't flowery like that?)

@spitznock: Not sure my friend. I'm trying to process a lot about this game. I liked the story. I liked the story, and what it was trying to do. However, this game now feels incomplete with all these cuts. I'm not sure what they were thinking.
The story should have been better. It had the right ideas. The game just got.....lazy? I dunno. Big fan of sutherland, and think his performance was wasted. Skull face was cool in GZ, in tpp he's a joke. There's moments that should have been fantastic like the truck scene, but again got lazy. Ahhhh--------the Paz stuff was fantastic because V-Snake truly is a tragic character trying to battle with his own mind. If there was more stuff like that, then the story would have been better.

Sorry dude! Just trying to figure out how I feel xD What an odd time to be a MGS fan.

I'm not going to bother detailing my interpretation of the ending; I just finished the game about two hours ago, and if the older titles are any indication, it's going to take some time for me to convalesce after the battery of cutscenes, tapes, and after credit conversations.

What I will talk about, however, is what the ending left out. And there's a lot of it!

1. The Battle Gear! You can't possibly tell me that we had all that build up for something that's reduced to filling a deployment mission checkbox. It was obviously cut, so why leave the other scenes in at all?
2. Eli and the magical floating Metal Gear! I went and watched the cut episode 51, which is all well and good, but that stuff was cut for a reason. I don't know if that was time, or if the underlying idea was rejected, but as it stands, we have no canonical in-game resolution to that plot thread.
3. Quiet! She's gone, but she should also be barfing up larva right now. Hell, Venom should be barfing up larva right now as well, since the entire reason for her staying "Quiet" was to keep from unleashing the English plague on him. She gave a ton of instructions in English to the chopper, after all. And even if those few words weren't enough to activate the parasites and spread them to Snake, she's a walking bio-weapon (in more ways than one). They really just let that one go unresolved.
4. Miller's eyes! They were obviously playing that one up ("Did they do something to your eyes?" "It's just bright, that's all."), what with Code Talker's warning and the similarity to his eyes, amongst other references. Again, totally absent.
5. Eli and Baby Mantis' red scarves! If you look on the shoulder of both Eli and Baby Mantis, they have the same red pieces of cloth in their epaulettes. Before the game came out, many speculated that this tied them together in some sort of unit. Given the fact that Mantis spent most of the game running around with Skull Face (and didn't meet Eli until the midway point), it seems odd that they'd share this feature.
6. Code Talker! I'd like to think he opened up a burger joint with Miller and spent the rest of his days chowing down, but, again, completely unresolved.
7. Minor things! Why did Chico have a headphone jack implanted in his chest in GZ? Why did Huey insist on putting Hal in a Metal Gear? (Hell, how did Huey go from basically just Otacon in Peace Walker to ultra-scumbag here?) What happens to Sahelanthropus? Why does Kaz abandon his quest for vengeance against both Zero and Big Boss to go back to the US? He works under FOXHOUND before the Zanzibar Land disturbance, meaning he was both on Zero's territory and in Big Boss' unit.

There's a ton more but my head is already spinning. I'll try and codify my thoughts on the ending later, but if anyone can help fill in some of those plot holes in the meantime, I'd be thrilled. As it stands, MGSV is one of my favorite games, but the story isn't without its flaws.

@mirado: To your point number 3. I think the only way to get infected is by saliva or blood, not by listening to someone infected speaking English? To my understanding all she did was activate the parasites within her.

What upsets me the most, is Skullface's characterization. SK was much more of a villian in GZ. What was up with the headphone in the chest shit? ALSO, Kojima said he was going to do something that was never done in metal gear before...........where is it?

There was never a character creator in Metal Gear before. That's all I got.

More cut stuff. I feel bad for Sutherland who's taking the blame for whoever decided to cut all this good stuff out. Poor move.
https://soundcloud.com/gboon/file0355?in=gboon/sets/youre-fired-and-more-cut-snake-dialogue

I loved the ending. Then again I loved MGS2. I guess I'm just that guy.

@mirado:

The Battle Gear! You can't possibly tell me that we had all that build up for something that's reduced to filling a deployment mission checkbox. It was obviously cut, so why leave the other scenes in at all?

It was cut from gameplay due to balance issues. That's all KojiPro have said on that. I imagine they left it in because it still fills a purpose in Outer Ops.

Eli and the magical floating Metal Gear! I went and watched the cut episode 51, which is all well and good, but that stuff was cut for a reason. I don't know if that was time, or if the underlying idea was rejected, but as it stands, we have no canonical in-game resolution to that plot thread.

As it stands, we all know where Mantis and Liquid wind up... so why does it matter? In the True Ending events crawl that has accompanied every Metal Gear credits sequence since the first MGS, they explain quite clearly what happens to Liquid and Mantis. If you want further clarification I'll go find a screenshot of the crawl.

Quiet! She's gone, but she should also be barfing up larva right now. Hell, Venom should be barfing up larva right now as well, since the entire reason for her staying "Quiet" was to keep from unleashing the English plague on him. She gave a ton of instructions in English to the chopper, after all. And even if those few words weren't enough to activate the parasites and spread them to Snake, she's a walking bio-weapon (in more ways than one). They really just let that one go unresolved.

Quiet's mission was to gain Venom's trust and then when she was free to move around the base, she'd infect them. After seeing what kind of man he is, and what kind of place Diamond Dogs was, she has a change of heart. She realizes that her need for vengeance is kind of stupid, and that infecting the entire world with the English parasite, committing a holocaust that will kill untold millions (perhaps billions, depending on statistical data of exactly how many people in 1984 spoke English) is not worth the price of her revenge. There's also the subtext that Venom and Quiet are falling for each other, and I imagine that had something to do with her decision.

The catalyst for Quiet leaving was the epiphany that the English strain could mutate and become infectious anyway, even if she never spoke a word. She decides to leave Mother Base and Venom Snake behind and essentially goes on a suicide mission against the Soviet army in hopes of getting killed. If she dies, the parasite dies with her. Venom kind of fucks that plan up by performing a rescue operation, and so when she decides to finally speak in order to save his life, she realizes she's dooming herself. Skull Face supposes that you can get away with saying a few words here and there, but how much Quiet spoke definitely activated the parasite in her. She was a walking bio weapon, and that's why she leaves. She disappears into the Afghan desert to die, presumably by taking her own life. If you watch the ending to Mission 45 again, and pay attention to her face where she struggles to decide what to do, you can see the rollercoaster of emotions playing across her face. She understands what needs to happen now that the parasite has no doubt been activated, and she leaves Venom behind once she knows he'll be safe. She takes his walkman and records a goodbye.

It's not an unresolved plotpoint. It's all right there. The game doesn't explicitly tell you that she's going to kill herself, but it's heavily implied through visual cues, acting, and direction.

Miller's eyes! They were obviously playing that one up ("Did they do something to your eyes?" "It's just bright, that's all."), what with Code Talker's warning and the similarity to his eyes, amongst other references. Again, totally absent.

It's implied that he was infected with the parasite as well, but was given the Wallbachia treatment. That's the point of his eyes, I think. Subtle, sure, but it's there. A lot of the story in MGSV is told through the language of film, so it's pretty easy to see how someone might not pick up on everything that's being put down in this game. Not saying you're stupid for not getting it, because I imagine a lot of people aren't really familiar with what "film language" actually is.

Eli and Baby Mantis' red scarves! If you look on the shoulder of both Eli and Baby Mantis, they have the same red pieces of cloth in their epaulettes. Before the game came out, many speculated that this tied them together in some sort of unit. Given the fact that Mantis spent most of the game running around with Skull Face (and didn't meet Eli until the midway point), it seems odd that they'd share this feature.

I would have to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure Mantis's beret doesn't appear until the chopper scene where he discovers Eli. Even if that isn't the case, I imagine it could just be a bit of visual foreshadowing that is meant to subtly bind the two characters together, much in the same way that, from the moment you arrive in the ACC, you can zoom in on the chopper mirror and see the face of your avatar instead of Venom Snake.

Code Talker! I'd like to think he opened up a burger joint with Miller and spent the rest of his days chowing down, but, again, completely unresolved.

Code Talker is assumed to have spent his remaining days working on a way to restore his people to their romanticized glory. He's an old man to begin with (well over a century old), and I have to imagine he died at some point before Metal Gear or Metal Gear Solid. He was a bystander who was forced into this world through bad circumstances. It's not hard to say that when the whole affair is dealt with, he soon parts ways with Diamond Dogs and returns to his homeland in order to help the Dine.

Minor things! Why did Chico have a headphone jack implanted in his chest in GZ? Why did Huey insist on putting Hal in a Metal Gear? (Hell, how did Huey go from basically just Otacon in Peace Walker to ultra-scumbag here?) What happens to Sahelanthropus? Why does Kaz abandon his quest for vengeance against both Zero and Big Boss to go back to the US? He works under FOXHOUND before the Zanzibar Land disturbance, meaning he was both on Zero's territory and in Big Boss' unit.

Chico's headphone jack? No idea. It could be something to do with the parasites, but it's more than likely that he was just cruelly tortured. Huey put Hal in the Metal Gear because he's a fucked up piece of shit living in denial of the bad man that he is. A man who desires world peace does not create a nuclear weapon, he creates something to help heal the world in the wake of all the devastation human beings have caused. Think of it like this; Otacon realized what Metal Gear Rex was really for, was horrified, and ultimately founded Philanthropy as a way to atone for being used like he was. What is Huey's response to the Peace Walker incident? To build more terrifying mecha! A deadly parasite that can infect and kill millions if not billions of people? Why not subject it to testing and create an even deadlier strain! Huey is a scumbag because he can't hold himself accountable for the evil he's done. He cut a deal with Zero and the Patriots to go work for them after the Peace Walker incident. From the beginning in Peace Walker, Huey has been a contradiction. It was subtle as hell in Peace Walker, but it was still there.

Kaz abandons his quest for revenge once he realizes that it won't bring back everything they've lost. That's why he had such a hard on for murdering Skull Face and attempting to take down Cipher. It isn't until he realizes (or rather, is informed by Ocelot) that this whole thing is what Big Boss wanted. His closest friend left Kaz twisting in the wind. As for where Kaz winds up, it's explained in the post-credits conversation of the True Ending; he says essentially "fuck Big Boss, I'm going to take Venom and make him the man I always thought Big Boss was." He also vows to take care of Solid Snake and make him a better soldier than his old man in order to kill the bastard. Ocelot and Kaz essentially pick sides in that scene. Ocelot goes on to guide Liquid while Kaz goes on to guide Solid Snake.

He works in FOXHOUND because, like Big Boss, he doesn't want his enemy to see him coming. The best way to tackle your enemy isn't head on, it's sideways. Get out of their line of sight and they'll never see you coming. Kaz used Solid Snake as his proxy weapon to kill Big Boss, but in the meantime, he acted as though everything was fine between them. As for the connection with Cipher, he only wanted revenge on Cipher because he thought he was betrayed. He was playing both sides (although I think his true loyalty was to Big Boss; he says in Peace Walker that he was essentially working with Cipher in order to pump them for information), and he got burned. Kaz isn't a good guy. Nobody in MGSV is really a "good guy." Except for maybe Venom, as he turns out to be a better man than Big Boss. A man who chooses loyalty to his brothers in arms over loyalty to the mission.

Hopefully this gave you more answers than you found in the main game.

I still actually have a few main missions to go until i can say that i have done all of the main missions (46/50 atm). I agree with a lot of other people that while the gameplay is very satisfying the story becomes very garbled towards the end.

My problem with the game is not actually the fact that we arent playing as the original big boss. It has more to do with the following problems:

1) The game lacks specific mission based zones. Its nice to have 2 huge open world areas but if you do a lot of sidequests you are going to get very familiar with all of the areas in those open world maps. Having a few more mission specific zones would have given the player the chance to experience some unique areas. I was kinda expecting that we would have more areas like the prison camp that we saw in the ground zeroes game/demo last year.

2) The lack of civilians and traffic in those open world areas. The only traffic that one can see are the trucks and the jeeps and that is about it. Also the amount of animal life in the world is very limited. You can hike around the world and at times it feels very empty of all life.

3) Why are there only 2 open world areas? For chapter 2 it would have been nice to have had a 3:rd open world area to explore.

4) The relative lack of boss fights. Metal gear games are known for their boss fights and while this game certainly has a couple that are nice (battle vs quiet, battle in mission 31 against the robot named S) it still feels like the game is pretty light on content when it comes to memorable boss battles. I dont really count the fight against the man on fire as a boss fight (since you only had to fight him near water and the fight was basically over in one hit).

5) Why do we have to do the same main missions again on different modes? The game doesnt really have 50 main missions since at least 18 of them are just variations of the previous missions. I was pretty happy when i found out that the game didnt end after mission 31 but after a few repeat missions it become pretty evident that most of the chapter 2 is just basically padding to make the game appear longer than it actually is.

For anyone wondering if they're done. You proabbly are. There is 3 full credit sequences in the game. They (probably fucking Konami) cut 1/3 of the ending. It was reconstituted from VO and partly done cutscenes in the collector's edition:

It's really sad such an incredible game has those 2 or 3 major flaws. Should make GoTY discussions interesting at least.

I don't see Jeff being as high on this once he finishes the story, considering he was already disappointed with it pre-29. Dan worships at the altar of Kojima so I'd be really surprised if he doesn't like it. The gameplay is really strong but the writing could knock it off the number 1 position.

Story wise this game was a huge let down. Even the marketing was off. With the whole Big Boss becoming a demon even though really for 99% game we never saw that descent into darkness. The story itself felt pointless, why was this chapter of the MGS storyline even given exposition? The whole BB having a phantom was predictable before the game even came out, and what does it really do for the story? Doesn't really make me look at it any differently.

We should've gotten MG 1 & 2 at the end, but instead we got a c*** tease for it. You can literally HEAR Solid Snake fighting the Outer Haven guards... ugh so much squandered potential.

I found the MGS2 comparisons for this ending apt. Something I didn't cover in the original post was the meta-layer of the ending. Again, this is partially based on some conjecture, but what is clear is that Kojima wanted to make a statement about player agency in the video game narrative.

I think MGSV is a counterweight to MGS2 in regards to our main characters and how they approach their identities in relation to the player. I'll focus on three key players here: Raiden, Venom Snake, and Big Boss.

MGSV and MGS2 draw comparison not only from the shared feature of a violent rug-pull regarding character identity, but also they are also the only two Metal Gear games that ask you to input your name at the start (I could be wrong here, but even if I am, they are the only two to incorporate that into the narrative). In a relatively recent interview on his favorite moments in Metal Gear, Kojima brought up one moment from 2 that feels extremely relevant. It's also extremely telling that this moment in particular was weighing in Kojima's mind.

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The scene he is talking about follows the climax of the game where Raiden is forced to confront the realities of his life; he had forsaken his past and ran away from painful memories, thus hiding his identity away making him an ideal candidate for the S3 program. MGS2 has a wild metanarrative layer about player agency and control that you can look up tons of written articles about, but what is important about Raiden's scene here is that he tosses those dog tags away and decides to beat his own path, away from the control of the Patriots and the player.

The Plot Stuff

Contrast that with a similar moment in MGSV; Big Boss reveals to Venom Snake that his whole identity was a lie and he has been given a new identity that he didn't choose. There are some differences here; at least on some level, Raiden was complicit with his new identity and burying the past, while with Venom it was done entirely against his will. However, the underlying ramifications are the same, both for the narratives and characters, as well as for the statement for player narrative. However, in MGS2 Raiden reacts with disgust towards his new identity. In MGSV, Venom Snake revels in it. If MGS2 is about striking your own way through history, MGSV is about giving your identity to someone else's dream. They are antithetical to one another. Though Venom Snake seems happy to be a part of the Big Boss legend, the ending is tragic in a way that I covered in my original post.

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That darn metanarrative

Here the fourth wall is also broken. Big Boss isn't talking to Venom alone; he's also talking to the player. We've experienced everything that Big Boss had up to that point, we controlled him every step of the way towards this moment. Venom Snake is a *ahem* cipher for the player moreso than any protagonist in Metal Gear history. The reason he talks so little is because we are supposed to imbue within this Big Boss our own essence. Think of how much each individual story in this game differs from one player to the next, from tiny details like how specific missions went, to huge ones like Diamond Dog's logo or whether or not we developed nuclear weapons. We wrote the story of Metal Gear Solid V the entire time convincing ourselves we were Big Boss, but we weren't. It all plays into how the game is more open than any other in the series and how that effects gameplay and how the player reacts to the main character. That moment is Big Boss telling us how we've helped him along the way, how we've contributed to his mission. But again, this isn't necessarily a happy ending, because by declaring us "Big Boss", he is also taking away our individual identities.

It's obvious that a lot of fans are hurt by this ending, or feel somehow betrayed. That isn't to say that we should forgive every narrative shortcoming of this game, or forgive the cut content, but I think in some part, that pain is intentional. We lost Big Boss. He has left our control to be his own man, free from the will of others. He's also taken something from us; our identity. The reason the medic is such a non-character is because he is a player stand-in; everything Big Boss did to him, he did to us.

At the end of the game, Big Boss gets a new passport with our entered name on it. This is essentially the same thing as the dog tag in MGS2, except in this case, Big Boss is taking it with him, not throwing it away. In MGS2 the implication is that by forsaking the identity of the player character, Raiden is able to start his own life separate from the control of others. Big Boss starts his own life by stealing our identity and leaving us with his old one to do with it what we please. When we realize we've been bamboozled, there's a sense of pain. We yearn to know what Big Boss was doing, we yearn to help him create Outer Heaven and find Frank Yeager and fight Solid Snake. But we can't. That is his life to live, this one is ours.

What is tragic at the end is that Venom Snake's reaction is in direct opposition to what I assume is a natural player's reaction. He is happy, and willingly accepts the title of Big Boss, thus allowing himself to be absorbed by the legend. Notice that this moment is completely out of our control; Big Boss has now even taken Venom Snake from us. In Metal Gear, the relationship between the character and player is communicated through control vs no control. In the end of this game, Venom leaves our control not to become his own man, but to become an extension of Big Boss, taking with him everything we built.

For MGSV we were given free reign to play around in the MGS universe, to deviate from the set path and to build our own legacy inside of it, but at the end of the game Big Boss takes that from us, absorbs it into his legend. From that moment forward, it goes back to the norm, traveling along a straight path to MG and the rest of the series.

I'd also like to note that I'm loving the discussions and arguments this game is generating. I'll happily take the controversial work over the safe one any time. Even if I'm happy with the product, I do agree that there are clearly some corners that were cut. Being without that final Eli mission is a huge bummer, especially since there are so many great moments that set up Liquid's later life perfectly. Also, fighting that Metal Gear with a whole island of cover at your disposal sounded fucking incredible and would have been a proper final boss fight.

@thefantasticfillip: Fantastic write up. I agree with you 100% it all makes sense to me apart from a few things...I'm probably missing something really obvious but if the "medic" is a body double of big boss and not a literal clone, why do they have the same voice? It's driving me crazy.

Also why would zero want to help big boss? Just to carry on the legend? And again, I'm sure I'm just missing something but why does Skull Face want to kill big boss? That's never been clear to me.

@pompouspizza: Same voice... I wish they didn't. The real answer is so the twist wouldn't be spoiled by all of a sudden having a different VO in TPP. Somewhere inside I wish Hayter voiced Big Boss while Keifer voiced Venom Snake, but we weren't so lucky. That would have been perfect. It doesn't exactly fit story reasons, but moreso was done to protect the twist.

Also why would zero want to help big boss? Just to carry on the legend?

Zero and Big Boss may have been ideological enemies to the end, but they were personal friends, and despite their animosity, cared for one another somewhere inside. Killing Big Boss would have been an excellent opportunity for Zero, but he couldn't bring himself to do it because he is human. His intention was always for Big Boss to come back to the Patriots, never to kill him, because of their emotional connection. The AI, the inheritors of his will, would not be so forgiving to Big Boss. Zero was also contending with parts of his organization going out of his control (XOF). He made a memetic copy of Big Boss so that BB's legend may live, but also so BB can live to one day return to the Patriots, which he ultimately does (though he is only doing it to spy on them). Also, Big Boss's genetic clones were not yet old enough to assume his place on the world stage.

Basically, when Zero said "Join Cipher or die" at the end of PW, it was a bluff. He could never bring himself to kill Big Boss. But the AI would totally fucking kill him or enslave him for their own desires, which is exactly what they ultimately do.

why does Skull Face want to kill big boss? That's never been clear to me.

That plays into the whole notion of legacies and legends. Big Boss completes Snake Eater, becomes a world reknown soldier through many heroic battle adventures, joins the Patriots, and skyrockets to international recognition. I'd imagine Big Boss is something like Che Guavera in the Metal Gear universe.

Skull face on the other hand is his janitor. XOF is a clean-up crew for Big Boss's missions; they do the behind-the-scenes work that make it possible for him to complete his missions. I like to think of it like XOF are the ones who are behind improbable things that are in Snake Eater for gameplay's sake; they dug little holes under fences, cleaned up bullet casings and corpses after you leave an area, leave food and guns in improbable places, drop off equipment and camoflague around the jungle.

Despite Skull face's help in establishing not only Big Boss's survival, but also in fueling his legend, no one knows who he is. He isn't invited to the Patriots, he isn't ever known by the public, his deeds are never recognized. He remains forever invisible, Big Boss's shadow. After decades of this, he grows resentful of Zero for giving him this job, and he grows resentful of Big Boss for stealing the spotlight.

In Ground Zeroes he starts down his own path. He wants to be recognized, he wants to leave his mark on the world. He destroys MSF and attacks Big Boss against Zero's will, and he personally infects Zero with a neural parasite. If Zero is the director and Big Boss the lead actor, Skull face is a stage hand, but he wants to be the star of the show.

I liked the story, but it definitely feels unfinished. It just kind of... stops. Putting together various clues like Dan's comments about plans for four areas and the unfinished episode 51, I think it's pretty obvious Konami pulled the plug at some point and Kojima had to work with what he had.

@thefantasticfillip: wow, thank you for being so helpful.

I like reading your interpretations, @thefantasticfillip, although they don't really help my complaints about the game. The added meaning and meta only makes excuses for the content, it doesn't change the content itself into something that I enjoy more or less than I did. It's like the reasoning for Quiet wearing no clothes, the justification doesn't have a lot of impact on whether that bothers me or not. Still, it's nice to read your thoughts on it. MGS is one of those series where it's difficult to read too much into something.

@thesecondagent Thanks for those voice clips, I found a new message sound in there. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50213992/File0375_222983028_soundcloud.mp3

@thefantasticfillip: That was a very thoughtful write-up, but there's one thing you don't address in your analysis of the meta-narrative, which is: what does the meta-narrative have to say about the narrative? In this case I don't mean MGSV's narrative because it hardly exists, rather I'm referring to the overall Metal Gear narrative. MGS2's meta-narrative was interesting because it commented on the series itself (fan expectations, character representations, the cycle of anticipation) as well as themes within the series (the legend of Solid Snake, hero worship, the significance of Shadow Moses). MGSV's meta-narrative seems to be there to serve itself, which is far less interesting. The problem with it making all of these observations on Big Boss absorbing our legacy into his own and mirroring MGS2's acknowledgement and subversion of player control is that it doesn't fit in with any established themes associated with Big Boss. He's not known for subterfuge, stealing glory, destroying self identity, or self-aggrandizing, so the twist comes off as disingenuous.

Jeff's favourite MGS is 2 though and he really dislikes Naked Snake and 3. Big fan of kojima dumping on fans so I could see him being into it for that

Yeah no sorry, your point falls flat when two seconds after saying this - his agent Pacifica Ocean tries to kill Big Boss with a Metal Gear.

We know 100% that these are not her own actions, as by then she'd fallen in love with BB and had come to see mother base as her home and MSF as her family. Yet despite this, she is still so afraid of Zero that she follows through on her orders of killing BB, nuking the west coast of the US and blaming it on MSF. (or at least she would have if BB didn't stop her)

PW was the final attempt by Zero at getting Big Boss and his men to come back into the fold, if BB still refused he felt that there was no choice but to destroy them both.

MGSV is just a mess in this regard...we get to hear all the contact Zero had with Paz for her mission briefing during the truth tapes. Let's be honest, does that little chat between her and Zero really sound like something that would inspire her to do what she did out of abject fear of disobeying Zero's orders, despite her obvious change of heart?

It sounded like a whistful old man who was lamenting the loss of a friend, not once is there any outright threat or even implication of what happened to her in Ground Zeroes if she should fail her mission. In fact, she catches on that she's Zero's only hope as he tries to bluff that there's a whole bunch of other candidates he had turned down prior to her, which would be a BAD move as it's more people who would know his location.

Kojima went back on his plan of making Zero the outright irredeemable shithead somewhere between PW and PP and this is very obvious, he wanted to make him a sympathetic character instead so he made Skullface the cartoonish antagonist in-lieu who wipes out MSF and does fucked up evil things like putting a alzheimer's parasite on a pin.

The whole thing smacks of standard revisionist lore by Kojima, and I don't like it one bit.

@berserker976: I agree with the underlying message of the post; MGSV does not pull off this trick as well as MGS2 did. Big Boss is certainly never really portrayed as much of a mastermind or manipulator in a way that he was portrayed here. He was always shown to be a legendary soldier gone awry, a fearsome warrior. I think Kojima played off of our expectations of Big Boss and what we know of him using all the implications of this ending and the metanarrative layer. Maybe I'm not explaining myself particularly well, but I think there's a big moment here where we realize (or are supposed to realize) how much Big Boss has changed; we expected him to come out of a coma and go on a rampage against Cipher while building up a new MSF that will become Outer Heaven. What he did instead was send a double to do his dirty work and keep the heat off his back so that he can fully dedicate himself to the realization of his lofty ideology: Outer Heaven, the soldier nation. This is something we'd expect out of say, Zero, but not BB. I think we're intentionally supposed to see how his character has changed in that way and the game does this through that metanarrative layer as well as at a strictly narrative layer.

I think the bigger problem is we get tiny little morsels of information about this change. We see him heading in this trajectory at the end of PW when he rejects the Boss, accepts the title of Big Boss, and beats forward on his dream of establishing Outer Heaven. It's understandably jarring to see him at this current endpoint we see at the end of Phantom Pain. It's making a comment on just the kind of turn he takes, one that we did not expect, but does so in a way that is jarring. I think the game would have benefited from some more Big Boss, or perhaps a meatier story. But we have what we have. It's enough to suss out what was going on in the background, but I think it relies on the 30 years of mythology it's working with to fully connect all of the dots, rather than as a particularly effective work in its own right. In that way, I think MGS2 handled its lofty thematic goals better. I still really appreciate what Kojima did here, and I'll take this over a more conventional narrative any day.

@zabant: My apologies. Admittedly, Zero's characterization in PW was extremely limited. TPP is indeed revisionist, as I think PW leaves off sending us in a rather different direction than we ended up going in regards to the Zero/Big Boss stuff. However, I don't think he was so strongly characterized in PW that his actions in this game seem completely out of character. For one, you tend to act differently when you're dying than when you are alive and at the top of your game. Kind of like when you and a friend get into a fight and someone ends up hitting someone else too hard, more often than not you end up apologizing. Big Boss was in a coma and Zero was dying. For a moment, he gave up the hate.

But yeah I'm not saying it isn't revisionist, but Kojima has always taken this series one game at a time. They've been pretty damn revisionist the whole time, and that's fine with me because I think taking risks like this makes for more interesting stories so long as the changes aren't egregious. In my opinion, the changes here aren't, especially in relation to Zero/Big Boss, especially since he's still very much a megalomaniac asshole in this game outside of that moment with Big Boss.

But I can also see the other side.

@thefantasticfillip: Your point about not seeing the catalyst for the change in Big Boss reminds me of another problem I had with MGSV. Aside from Eli, every character that we've seen before in a Metal Gear game acts completely different in MGSV. It isn't just Big Boss who has a seemingly out-of-nowhere change, it's everyone. It makes the game feel foreign and disconnected from the rest of the series. It doesn't feel like a Metal Gear game to me because I don't recognize enough in it. And that feeling extends past the characters. The camera work, the general amount of dialogue, the tone, the pacing and structure of the game, it's all too different, and I would argue, inferior.

It's a fantastic ending itself, I just wish there was an actual mission or final boss fight to go with it. It just feels like it comes out of nowhere, and we don't get any real closure on Venom's story in the 80's.

Also, why did nothing ever come of the chunk of shrapnel near his heart? I thought he was gonna have some cool heroic death at the end of the game or something where it pierces his heart, but....nope! Just forget we said that! Oh, also forget the fact that Snake now has the English parasites.

The player agency stuff to me is BS. Venom is a character and Big Boss is a character. The "YOU are Big Boss" stuff falls totally flat - you don't even to get to make your own choices, you just put your name in at the beginning and it shows up again at the end. It's a hollow meta narrative. I wish Kojima focused on making a good story with good writing instead.

https://a.pomf.cat/abcyrl.mp4

Here's a wonderful (cut) cassette tape. So disappointing to see so many important story cut from the game. Great voice acting there too.

@teddie: if you watch the scene again he doesnt actually pee himself, its a fluid bag leaking. like for an IV.

Yeah, I guess he magically doesn't have it anymore like Liquid.

@berserker976: yeah, Troy Baker voicing Ocelot really hurt what was otherwise a fantastic character. But really the whole game is under the veil of hallucination and such, as well as everyone being on edge (well mainly Miller) and chasing some kind of twisted revenge that doesn't end up "healing" them.

The ending and the implications were dope. I thought it was super cool. Solid Snake is my favorite video game character and it just reinforces that he's the hero of the series. Yeah yeah, fanboy over here.

Funny thing is wouldn't Solid Snake notice that one of the Big Bosses he killed had a horn/robot arm?

The only issue I have with the ending is that I can't see how Diamond Dogs serve a lot of point... I mean yeah, I see how it serves Big Boss's plan, but that's about it. Skullface, the parasite outbreak and all that are sort of "side stories" which is a darn shame because the "You're all diamonds" scene was truly heartbreaking and it feels kind of pointless now when we weren't even working for anything.

Or maybe I'm an idiot. I have issues with this game but, darn it... It's really good.

"CONSECUTIVE C Q C!" has got to be modded back into the game somehow. I would love to spend hours punching dudes with Kiefer yelling that.

Was I supposed to get episode 45 before 46? Because for some reason I didn't.

And I'm bummed because 46 was such a dumb, wonderful, perfect way to end the game, the whole series even, and I hated everything about 45 (and now I'm going to vent about it because fuuuuuuuuck!!!!). I hated...

• The fact that it starts without you knowing you're going into a mission
• The fact that it doesn't let you LEAVE the mission to, say, put armor on your chopper or get those last few R&D levels to upgrade your rocket launcher or give Snake body armor
• The fact that if you don't go into that mission with body armor, an upgraded rocket launcher, and chopper equipped to fuck shit up, the whole thing is a huge exercise in frustration because of...
• The fact that checkpoints suuuuuuuuck
• The fact that it ends with (unless there's something ELSE later on) Quiet being gone for good. I'm glad the game lets you keep playing after everything is said and done, but something about the prospect of continuing to play and attempt to 100% the game with an EXTREMELY USEFUL helper taken away just isn't as appealing. It's like if they said "Okay you can keep playing, but now you can't use rockets, grenades, or mines. I sure hope you got around to those anti-tank missions already, because good luck with them NOW, fucker!"

And MAN, going from the satisfied high of "what a perfectly crazy way to end a wonderful game" straight into "I don't even know if I want to play this any more" makes it all the more frustrating. I know it's irrational, but as a last impression is kind of makes me think less of the game as a whole (which is bullshit because just an hour earlier I was confident in it being one of my favorite games of all time). And the fact that the missions rolled out in that order probably wasn't supposed to even happen, I was probably supposed to get the bad news first, THEN the good news to end on a high note, but the exact OPPOSITE happened just...

I don't know, man. I just don't know.

*edit: Metaphor for how everything came together until the very end when something not even specifically related to the part that made everything else great fucked up: The most beautiful, perfect orchestra performance where the conductor lets rip the loudest, foulest fart JUST AS the last few notes of the last song are getting played. It was the concert of a lifetime, but now all you can think of it is as "the concert that ended with a huge fart, but the other stuff was pretty good I guess"

*edit 2: I'm feeling a lot less angry about it after sleeping on it, but I still think it was a bullshit mission. Just now maybe not as game ruiningly bullshit.

@xel: Man its so bizarre. They have already paid for Sutherland to do the voice over, why cut it? It costs nothing to leave it in. I'm super bummed his "YOUR FIIIIIIIIIIIRED" was cut xD That's the first thing I asked my friend, when he got the game early, "does Sutherland shout at the people you firing?".