Meh, it's been done before. One side will cave, then both sides will claim victory and by that time the American people will be furious at whatever stunt Miley Cyrus pulls next and have forgotten about all this shutdown nonsense.
American Government is Shut Down!
Hopefully something's done before too much damage happens.
This is minor compared to the next fight on October 17 when the debt ceiling needs to be raised. Screwing up this and creating a shutdown now makes avoiding that harder.
Important stuff like this really shows how strong our leaders resolve is for the greater good they are elected to uphold. As of now, It only stands to get uglier.
As noted by the BBC, in other countries when the government fails to pass a funding bill it triggers an election. When a parliamentary government fails to pass a funding bill at the very last moment that is it consider a serious disaster. A disaster on the order of the monarch or president or whatever may have to step in and start doing some undemocratic things to keep the country going.
The reason why the US doesn't flip out like this when it happens is basically two fold:
- Federal style of government: States can still function even if some federal services are down. Example: you local police and sheriff are paid by your state budgets not federal ones.
- The US is stupidly rich. This government shutdown is a gigantic waste of money but the US economy can eat it for the moment.
It isn't that big of a deal. Its like a teacher strike, all the kids get a few days off and then its back to normal. It isn't just repubs, the dems aren't giving an inch either. We should get rid of all of them and start over with new people.
the truth is not in the middle bro.
Congress passed the bill, the senate passed the bill, the president signed it, the supreme court deemed it constitutional. The only reason any further opposition is happening is because republicans won control of the house.
The republicans are the clear ones at fault for trying to fight against a bill that is law of the land and constitutional because of terrible, untrue talking points.
The Senate (Democrat-held) passed it, the President (Democrat) signed it, and the Supreme Court (whose function directly violates the tenants of a democratic republic) deemed it constitutional, and yet the House (Republican-held) opposes it.
The only people who think the truth isn't somewhere in the middle are those who were already firmly planted in their own party's lawn.
This thread was kind of a random, joyful shouting match from its start, but any real discourse has to start on reasonable ground. I really wouldn't try to launch a serious discussion here, but if you're intent on it, I think it's off to a rather poor start.
I wasn't aware we needed serious discussion! I (stupidly) assumed that most people could see the republicans were at fault.
Let me put it this way. Obamacare is the law of the land because Obama was elected again. end of discussion? This is a discussion about funding the government. The house republicans are holding it hostage because they don't like Obamacare. They've tried 46 times to defund, repeal, or whatever obamacare. At some point? Rational people would get the picture. They would wait until, under their own admission, Obamacare gets out into the world and people would (again, in their own view) get angry because it fucking sucks, they would vote in Republican Senators and get a supermajority in the house and everything would be crystal!
That's not happening though... wonder why?
and don't dare accuse me of being a democrat
I'm way more liberal than that
That this happens is hilarious and really really sad at the same time.
[edit:] From an outsider view (germany) it looks like the republicans are mostly scared the the Healthcare Act might be a good thing. Which is fucked in it's own way.
That this happens is hilarious and really really sad at the same time.
[edit:] From an outsider view (germany) it looks like the republicans are mostly scared the the Healthcare Act might be a good thing. Which is fucked in it's own way.
that's mostly exactly what it is. All of their arguments were:
1. angry that congress got an exemption (untrue)
2. anecdotal evidence that their constituents hate obamacare (probably true, but that's cause they don't fully understand it... Not that I do either, mind you)
3. impassioned pleas that they did try to discuss things with the democrats and they want to now! (the republican house under the current speaker refused 18 times in this year to pow wow with the senate to discuss funding the government)
I'm okay with the GOP repealing all of "Obamacare" but they got to do it right. Start with getting a president who doesn't seem to be crazy into the White House. From there they can shape policy. Win the majority in the House and Senate by promoting candidates that don't seem to hate women, minorities. From there they can properly shape the budget.
GOP fans seem to think they have a right to do this while ignoring that they really have no standing because they've been screwing up for years!!
I am continually shocked and amazed at how deeply fucked our healthcare system is. I barely trust my employer to pay me a fair wage, and I am supposed to allow them to control my access to healthcare? I would probably drop dead from shock if a 'journalist' (whom I think this country is severely lacking in) asked one of these people intent on defunding the this healthcare bill why they think our current system isn't fundamentally broken and in need of massive changes.
You guys, I think it's time for the species to give up. The powers that be will never allow a happy, positive, ethical, and diverse world to exist.
We might as well all bog down, join a Men's Rights club on Reddit, become Free Masons, learn to play lacrosse, change our names to Bryce, wear Weezer glasses, buy beige German SUVs with 2-wheel drive, eat only at Starbucks, unfriend all black Latin Jew and gay friends on Facebook, stock up on automatic Soviet rifles and rocket propelled grenades "for rabbit hunting", force our wives and girlfriends to vacuum all day, move to Austin Texas, change our homepage to Vice.com, change our uTorrents from Daily Show & Colbert to Dennis Miller & Bill Mahr, gain 30lbs in the belly only, dress like Donald Trump, write nasty letters on restaurant bills and no tip, part our hair, double park, worship Ayn Rand despite hating women Jews and Russians, delete Summerjams and replace with Ted Nugent's gre... songs, own a little place in Aspen, send death threats to girls who accuse athletes of r-wording them, fill our lawns with tacky decorations, wear lots of gold and too much perfume, and invest in private militias that train child soldiers in Africa, and maybe------- just maybe, the powers that be will accept us as one of their own and let us live.
I'm okay with the GOP repealing all of "Obamacare" but they got to do it right. Start with getting a president who doesn't seem to be crazy into the White House. From there they can shape policy. Win the majority in the House and Senate by promoting candidates that don't seem to hate women, minorities. From there they can properly shape the budget.
GOP fans seem to think they have a right to do this while ignoring that they really have no standing to make since they've made serious mistakes for a very long time.
Yeah but they've already doubled down on the minority hating candidates anyway that their only rational choice is Cristie... who tea party people hate because he complimented Obama on how he dealt with Sandy.
When they go to restart the government, make sure to pump the breaker three times and watch out for the raptor behind the fence.
Hopefully something's done before too much damage happens.
This is minor compared to the next fight on October 17 when the debt ceiling needs to be raised. Screwing up this and creating a shutdown now makes avoiding that harder.
Fortunately, if they can get things back on track before October 17(and I see no reason why they won't), the debt ceiling threat will at least be a bit different from this one. Even if they don't have a deal by October 17, the government can continue to pay its debts for a while, and that gives them a bit more time. Not to mention, if it appears that there can be no resolution, President Obama likely has the authority to simply raise the debt limit himself thanks to the Constitution guaranteeing that debts must be paid. For the sake of upholding the Constitution, the arbitrary debt ceiling may finally become a non-issue.
Hopefully they figure out a debt ceiling solution, but in the end, there is little chance that debts will actually go unpaid if Congress cannot come to an agreement in time.
@hailinel: no system's perfect? wow what a fascinating opinion! If you can tell me when any single parlimentary system in the world did this than I'll eat my hat. Again, Belgium was able to survive without a prime minister for a year, and that's with their whole Walloon vs. Flemish debate.
You know what though? Even this system would work if there were actually more than two parties. Tea party wouldn't have a goddamn leg to stand on if they were their own party. I don't know how you could call this a good system when it allows stuff like this.
How about you go live in a country with a parliamentary system for a few years, come back, and tell me what you think of it afterward.
America could literally sink the entire worldwide economy because of a single, obstinate senator who has presidential aspirations.
That seems to be less an issue with the US government and more an inherent danger in the inter-dependencies of global economies.
@hailinel: no system's perfect? wow what a fascinating opinion! If you can tell me when any single parlimentary system in the world did this than I'll eat my hat. Again, Belgium was able to survive without a prime minister for a year, and that's with their whole Walloon vs. Flemish debate.
You know what though? Even this system would work if there were actually more than two parties. Tea party wouldn't have a goddamn leg to stand on if they were their own party. I don't know how you could call this a good system when it allows stuff like this.
How about you go live in a country with a parliamentary system for a few years, come back, and tell me what you think of it afterward.
America could literally sink the entire worldwide economy because of a single, obstinate senator who has presidential aspirations.
That seems to be less an issue with the US government and more an inherent danger in the inter-dependencies of global economies.
Yeah, and a single Senator can't really do so much. They can perhaps filibuster, but without support of fellow Senators, it would only be a bump in the road of any bill. An entire chamber of Congress can have a big impact though, and powerful forces within that chamber can do both great or damaging things. Yet, sinking the world economy is more the domain of big businesses and banks than anyone in the government.
I think we can be frustrated and unhappy with this unfortunate mess, but we don't need to be hyperbolic.
@truthtellah: Ted Cruz is literally why the house decided to fight now, and not at the debt ceiling, so the shutdown is his fault if nothing else.
@peasantabuse: wow
@truthtellah: Ted Cruz is literally why the house decided to fight now, and not at the debt ceiling, so the shutdown is his fault if nothing else.
He's definitely not literally why the House decided to fight now. This has been an effort of many new House Republicans, and they were supported by Senator Cruz as their main champion in the Senate. They realized that the debt ceiling is less likely to have a chance for leverage, and they targeted something they thought they might be able to win. Or, more specifically, that they were okay with mostly losing, because even a small victory may be enough for them politically.
Yet, this temporary government cutback has no chance to tank the global economy, and the debt ceiling fight is even less likely to do so. I doubt this will go on as long as the time it happened in the 90s, but we'll see. The President and most of Congress know how deeply unpopular this is with all segments of the electorate; so, they will very likely strike a deal soon, with the House Republicans having made their stand that may or may not get them some concessions.
Could news agencies get more alarmist? Is better ratings really worth getting more people in a state of misled fear?
Right now, CNN just has a big "SHUTDOWN" with an image of a dead pulse under it on their front page. You'd practically think the whole country had collapsed and all hope was lost.
@truthtellah: Its mainstream news media everyone at CNN are most likely furiously masturbating with delight right now over the shutdown so they have shit to talk about for the next two weeks or so.
@truthtellah said:
Could news agencies get more alarmist? Is better ratings really worth getting more people in a state of misled fear?
Right now, CNN just has a big "SHUTDOWN" with an image of a dead pulse under it on their front page. You'd practically think the whole country had collapsed and all hope was lost.
That's what happens when citizens and duly elected government does nothing to protect the press. It gets infiltrated or taken over with extreme prejudice by money-grubbing cockmongers. News is a business now. That won't change until people give a shit. Which they won't until they have a reason to dig themselves out from the glacier of consumer-induced lethargy and apathy.
I think the US is the only industrialized country where the government could shut down and no one would notice. As a Swede I was thinking it would be a disaster but seeing that image of what is affected makes me think it is not a big deal I mean not being able to go to national parks for awhile or not getting your gun permit is not exactly affecting your life much.
I was more concerned during the writers strike.
Your country had better get its shit together. A LOT is riding on the US maintaining its economic recovery. This shut-down won't just fuck-up America, it could potentially fuck up the rest of the world's economies as well.
I just hope US voters remember this incident at the polls, and remember that some members (not all - just some) of the Republican party would rather burn their country to the ground than see Obama gain any sort of victory whatsoever.
I think the US is the only industrialized country where the government could shut down and no one would notice. As a Swede I was thinking it would be a disaster but seeing that image of what is affected makes me think it is not a big deal I mean not being able to go to national parks for awhile or not getting your gun permit is not exactly affecting your life much.
Yeah, the US is reasonably decentralized; so, the States still continue to carry about business without the Federal government. Though, in this case, it's a government cutback of "non-essential" staff; so, even the Federal government isn't primarily "shutdown". Regardless, it -can- have a big impact if it lasts for a few weeks. Hopefully that is not the case. Likely, it will get resolved in the coming days, and it's simply unfortunate that this had to be part of the Congressional back and forth over the budget.
Fortunately, it would be pretty difficult to shutdown all of the American government even if someone set out to do so.
@dagas: It definitely has its effect on some, of varying seriousness, but for the most part I'm pretty sure it'd be easy for a large majority of citizens to just straight out not notice as long as it's not an extended period of time. It's a deal, but not nearly as big a deal as the politicians and media want to claim it is, because panic gets votes and viewers.
Your country had better get its shit together. A LOT is riding on the US maintaining its economic recovery. This shut-down won't just fuck-up America, it could potentially fuck up the rest of the world's economies as well.
I just hope US voters remember this incident at the polls, and remember that some members (not all - just some) of the Republican party would rather burn their country to the ground than see Obama gain any sort of victory whatsoever.
It is certainly a bad situation that shouldn't have become part of the negotiations over the budget, but don't let people scare you. This does not threaten to significantly hinder the US economic recovery, and it will have almost no impact on the rest of the world. If resolved within the next week or two, most Americans will barely feel any effect. Considering how severely unpopular the temporary government cutback is, it is likely to get worked out sooner rather than later.
Let me put it this way. Obamacare is the law of the land because Obama was elected again. end of discussion? This is a discussion about funding the government. The house republicans are holding it hostage because they don't like Obamacare. They've tried 46 times to defund, repeal, or whatever obamacare. At some point? Rational people would get the picture. They would wait until, under their own admission, Obamacare gets out into the world and people would (again, in their own view) get angry because it fucking sucks, they would vote in Republican Senators and get a supermajority in the house and everything would be crystal!
Or... maybe they're not all evil people? Okay, I'm willing to say that most of them are completely ignorant of the way average people live, but there's still a perfectly good reason that such drastic measures are being taken.
Once you implement a huge social program like this, it's almost politically impossible to repeal/drastically change, no matter how broken it may become. Consider the Farm Bill in the US. It was created during the great depression to keep farmers from going out of business by allowing the government to directly buy crops and give needy individuals access to that food to keep them from starving. Obviously, really important stuff. But it was always intended as a temporary fix because it completely destabilized the market. Well, 80 years later, it's still renewed every time it comes up for revision because no politician would have any chance of reelection and mar the opinion of their part in general if they're seen as "wanting family farms to fail". The result is that at best, corn sugars are in everything because the government fully subsidizes corn growing which pays farmers nicely while massively adding to the obesity problem, and at worst, the government forces farmers to straight up destroy unthinkable amounts of crops to justify inflated prices to keep farmers in business (here) while that perfectly good food is kept out of foreign markets (where say, people are starving to death) which also causes prices to rise internationally, so impoverished people are priced out of eating, and yeah, also starve to death.
Horrible, but will never fundamentally change because it's seen as a social program. To be clear, I'm not trying to make a false correlation and imply that Obamacare is gonna kill people, just making the point that even the objectively worst government programs become untouchable when they're seen as public services.
The other simple fact is, the US government spends way more than it takes in. Current massive programs like Social Security (which coincidentally was also created during the great depression and many parts of it were also meant to be a temporary service) are running out of money at an exponential rate. Without drastic changes to their tax revenue collection or benefit allocation, SS itself is going to completely deplete its back up funding by around 2033. This isn't some republican fear mongering bullshit, it's reality. But it won't be revised, because it's a social program.
Obamacare will increase government healthcare spending by roughly $621 Billion dollars. The United States is in debt to other countries for about $16.74 trillion dollars and more every day. It's fundamentally unsustainable because just like those other programs the spending will have to increase, but once enacted, it won't be repealed because it's a social program.
Again, I'm sure many if not most of the politicians acting to shut the government down currently are doing so for completely asinine reasons. But there are rational folks out there who realize that when this behemoth gets fully funded, it will be a permanent burden on the already shaky American economy (and in turn, a burden on American citizens), which could have repercussions far, far worse than some not having access to cheap medical insurance.
@alexandersheen: @demoskinos: I almost can't believe it, but as I am going to bed, CNN just changed it to a big "GAME OVER" headline with a shot clock at 00:00 under it. Is America over? Are our lives over now?
@truthtellah: Wow. The depressing jaded side of me would say that this journalistic hyperbole is what we get for a society so entrenched with the belief that we depend on the Federal Government for our very existence.
The other side of me is just waiting for the trumphant day when the CNN front page is nothing but a tiled gif of that Scanners scene...
My dad has to rely on the VA for his medicine. Will he still be able to get it?
VA health care is protected in case of a temporary government cutback. So, your father should be fine. Does he take VA disability, pension, or GI Bill payments? He should be good for October on those, but if this carries on for more than three weeks, it could prevent him from getting his payments. Yet, the Congress is already working on a smaller measure to account for this, along with pay for other military servicemen. So, even if it goes on longer, it could be alright for him. Likely, this won't continue for more than a few days, but we shall see.
So, yes, your father should be fine for getting medical assistance from the VA.
@truthtellah: Wow. The depressing jaded side of me would say that this journalistic hyperbole is what we get for a society so entrenched with the belief that we depend on the Federal Government for our very existence.
The other side of me is just waiting for the trumphant day when the CNN front page is nothing but a tiled gif of that Scanners scene...
As someone the USA is illegally spying on, I am happy to see the government taking one in the balls. Too bad the NSA itself is not affected.
That said, I am worried for the people that are now going unpaid for a while just because of an absurdly broken political system being abused by a few destructive tea party assclowns.
America is a silly place.
@truthtellah: Awesome thanks, that's a relief. And no I think his only association with the VA is some sort of medical thing.
@truthtellah: Awesome thanks, that's a relief. And no I think his only association with the VA is some sort of medical thing.
Okay. If he runs into any snags, let me know and I'll try to find what resources there may be for him. Though, I don't think that will be necessary, as this will likely only last a few days, and VA health care is funded to be able to handle up to a year without additional Federal money.
Can we not just drag these extreme right wing congressman out of their houses mansions and shoot them already? This is fucking ridiculous to have an extreme minority of a party hijacking our federal government.
Some one just was reported to the police for making a terrorist threat.... OK, I'm joking. But seriously though, you shouldn't say that on the Internet. The police really will show up.
Also, http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Net_worth_of_United_States_Senators_and_Representatives
@truthtellah: Thanks a ton man!
I wish "Obamacare" was Single Payer/Universal Healthcare. Even so, these guys are going nuts that the government is spending money to force more coverage for more poor and young. Because you know...the thing we had before was loved by everyone and worked out so great.
It worked great when I was in College with no health insurance of any kind, working two jobs on the side - all the stress and exertion took it's toll and I took an ambulance ride to a local ER that was 5 minutes away from where the Ambulance picked me up. Spent 2 hours in the waiting room before a doctor looked at me, looked in my mouth, said I was fine it's just stress and sent me home.
Two weeks later I got a bill for $6,000.
@video_game_king: It was. The conflict was the same as it is today. A democratic president (Bill Clinton) wouldn't cooperate with a Republican House (lead by Newt Gingrich) which lead to a shutdown. The Republicans were blamed for the issue and ended up losing a number of seats in both the house and the senate in the next election. During Clinton's second term Congress managed to pass a budget which had the US in surplus for the first time since WW2. They managed to do this while still funding the vast majority of services we fund today. The difference was that due to the booming economy, tax revenue was vastly greater than it is today. What both democrats and republicans fail to either understand or admit (I don't know which) is that while government spending is a major problem, the larger issue is that people are earning less money today and are therefore paying less in taxes regardless of the tax rate. The solution to our government's budget issues (at least in a large part) is to improve the economy. When people are earning more money they will pay more in taxes without the need to raise the tax rate and this will fund many of the programs that the Republicans wish to cut.
Hopefully something's done before too much damage happens.
This is minor compared to the next fight on October 17 when the debt ceiling needs to be raised. Screwing up this and creating a shutdown now makes avoiding that harder.
Important stuff like this really shows how strong our leaders resolve is for the greater good they are elected to uphold. As of now, It only stands to get uglier.
Not really. By shutting down peripheral goverment areas now, they save money. Lots of workers are being sent home without pay, so they are slowing spending while they figure out what to do aboot the debt.
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