American Government is Shut Down!

Thanks Obama.

He's half white, I fail to see how that means anything.

So we're moving into Day 3 over here. If my experiences in gaming have taught me nothing, it's that we need to flee from this country before the moon crashes down or play the Song of Time (assuming someone has the Ocarina of Time (Dear God, does anyone have it!?)). Anyway, when do you think this is gonna be over? Or if it doesn't, when does anarchy reign supreme?

well it will, at least, end before the 16th because this is when the debt ceiling hits it's limit and that's a whole darker can of worms to open, so Obama would invoke the 14th amendment, or the funnier option, make the US Mint create a trillion dollar coin.

This thread has gone some really weird places.

Yeah, I was expecting some big arguments, but it has actually just descended into something rather odd and befuddling.

The Republican are really nothing more than economic terrorists.

While comparing any of this to slavery is quite dumb, implying that slavery is racist is as well.

Is that better or worse than a bunch of people giving terribly uninformed arguments?

Are you referring to American slavery? 'Cause implying that slavery in America wasn't racist is pretty dumb.

I am against Obamacare but for the Affordable Care Act!

With a misinformed public, democ­racy truly is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Who says it's gotta be Majora's Mask? You could be dealing with a 15 day cycle a la Treasure of the Rudras. Who's up for some awesome battle music?

No, slavery in general. People of all ethnicities have a history of being forced into slavery.

The longest a government shut down has lasted was a bit over two weeks I believe. As social order actually breaking down, well, think about it this way. Within the first week, the biggest issue that we'll have is the fallout from a million federal employees suddenly staying home. Cab drivers get less customers, restaurants lose out on a lunch crowd, stuff like that. Federal programs like the WIC that helps provide nutrition for low-income mothers and their newborns are also getting affected, so immediate impact can also be felt there.

Give it a bit more time however, and the problem compounds quickly. Things like student, business, and home loans that may need to go through some form of federal screening will get backed up. Tax refunds and other IRS related things will get backed up. Come November 1st, the first social security checks won't get mailed out, and it keeps going.

All of this of course is ignoring the potential for a rather large self-inflicted economic wound come the next debt ceiling debate.

Ouch.

What happens if the government doesn't raise the debt ceiling by October 16th? Does the dollar become as worthless as pre-World War 2 German currency?

Beyond that, what happens if the government stays shut down until, say, January?

The longer the shutdown lasts, the better it is for America. Because in two years, when these idiots are up for re-election, people will hopefully remember this event and not give them another chance.

Except the districts are drawn in such a way that the people causing this problem will either get re-elected or lose the primary to an even more radical politician because they didn't try hard to get to get rid of the evil, evil Obamacare.

With your incumbency rate hanging at 90%? And voter turnout on the decline? Ain't gonna happen.

Possibly related. there are shots fired on capital hill.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/03/breaking-reports-of-shots-fired-on-capitol-hill/?hpt=hp_t1

@chiablo: Uh, no. I don't think that an economic crisis and 800,000 people out of work will be better for anybody, especially considering that things aren't well at all to begin with.

The next presidential election is 2016, three years; the next Senate election is 2014 but only a third of them are up for re-election; and the next House of Representatives election is 2014. All of those guys are getting replaced. Still, two-thirds of the current Senate will still be there in 2016, and at least one third will be there 'til 2018.

It is bizarre that approval ratings for Congress have never been lower but if you actually ask how much they like their specific Congress Critter they often give solid approval. It is like they believe that all of the problems in Congress are due to the 532 other people who sit in Congress. Their guy? They are a-okay!

The effect will be disastrous for the world's economy. If the shutdown continues even until October 24th then for the first time U.S. government will default on paying interests on its loans. U.S. currency will run the risk of losing its status as the de - facto world currency. Plus, lots of other yet unforeseen consequences.

@believer258: Not lifting the debt ceiling means the US would have to pay for its bills with cash on hand. That sounds good an all until you realize what some of the services that will not meet the cutting block are since interest and principle of existing debt gets top priority: military salaries, social security, medicare payments, unemployment benefits to name some of the highest profile ones. And this is of course, only if the government is still functioning, and emergency measures are taken to cut spending and raise taxes.

An actual default on the debt would also mean US credit rating goes down, making it much more expensive interest wise for the US to take on future loans. It may not seem like a big deal for the federal government to be hit with this, realize that this means less money for things you're not as willing to brush aside: things like national infrastructure and the like. It was estimated that a delay in the last debt ceiling fight essentially cos the country $1.3 billion in 2011, and the 10 year cost is estimated to be $19 billion. That's one hell of a self inflicted wound.

As far as the value of the dollar goes, any potential hyperinflation really depends on the reactions from foreign entities, which both owns a lot of US debt and also use the dollar as a global reserve currency, and whether they decide "shit's all fucked, sell all dollars for another currency" or not.

As for what happens if the government shutdown lasts 90 days, I'll be honest, I have not a single clue. A lot of the issues being talked about are short term, but can you imagine the lack of an FDA to oversee food and drug safety for that long? (Yes, meat inspectors are exempt, so good news for carnivores I guess.) The permanent labor certification, which lets employers permanently hire foreign workers, being down will result in some immigration and labor issues. Or maybe not because E-Verify, the system that lets you check the immigration status of your employee, is also down! At least Green Card applications are still working because I have to renew mine at the end of the month. Seriously, a lot of things would be fucked in ways we can't currently imagine if it lasted that long.

I love you America, I really do, but you need to figure yer shit out. Fer reals.

@turambar: Thank you for the quick response!

Also it might be nearing time to move to Canada, eh.

Yes it will hit the economy hard but in the end I think it would be worst for the US and anti-globalists as this would be a primary reason to no longer have the world currency based on the currency of a single country but call in the Special Drawing Rights of the IMF as a world currency.

More interesting is this sheet. Let say the average interest rate is 3%. That means that China will lose a bit under 35 billion dollars of income. It's the largest economy in the world, it can probably manage that. But small countries like Belgium will lose 4.25 billion dollars of income. That's 1 percent of their GDP. Even if the US pays the interest later, Belgium will have to loan extra to bridge the gap in their budget. Which will probably raise their interest rates as well. It would be a very nasty game of domino's. If it happens because some people in the US don't like Universal Healthcare, I know for sure that the "anti-US" sentiment here in the EU will grow. To be clear, not an anti-US PEOPLE sentiment. But an anti sentiment against the influence the US has in the EU and the world. The US has much to lose and nothing to win by defaulting.

That's just my feelings on the matter though.

@believer258 said:

@donutfever: So I watched that entire video (What the fuck?) and the suggestions at the end gave me everything from Funky Forest to Jethro Tull.

@believer258: Those are... not what I would expect from the suggestions.

do not understand you Americans in Australia we have free public health care its not a big deal really. You guys spend so much money on the military. Just thank god i don't live in your crazy country :)

That's not actually accurate.

In Australia we have government SUPPLIED health care, it costs us around 1.5-3% more in Tax per year (This is what the Medicare levy is). However if you don't earn enough to pay tax and get a full rebate then you effectively don't pay for Medicare. We also have private health care if you want to go down that road but honestly there isn't a point, Medicare basically means you don't need to pay for hospital bills or don't pay when going to free clinics, if you have to go to a paid doctors surgery then you can claim around 40-50% of it back if you go into a Medicare branch.

Its effectively what Obama was trying to put in place, I have no idea how it works cost wise though.

Moderate left and moderate right should form a third party. This constant cockblocking is making the American Democracy the laughing stock of the world. With the far right holding the moderate right of the Republican party hostage, there will never be any room for compromise again.

As far as I can tell, the American Democracy is dead in the water. America is more than ever a thinly veiled oligarchy. Well - for better or worse, all of human society is. All the broken promises! Grrr...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Monument_Syndrome

"

The Washington Monument syndrome, also known as the Mount Rushmore Syndrome,^[1] or the firemen first principle,^[2][3] is a political tactic used in the United States by government agencies when faced with budget cuts or a government shutdown.^{[citation needed]} The tactic entails cutting the most visible or appreciated service provided by the government, from popular services such as national parks and libraries^[1] to valued public employees such as teachers and firefighters.^[2] This is done to gain support for tax increases that the public would otherwise be against.^{[citation needed]} The name derives from the National Park Service's alleged habit of saying that any cuts would lead to an immediate closure of the wildly popular Washington Monument.^[4] The National Review compared the tactic to hostage-taking or blackmail.^[5]

Although the strategy usually intends to highlight the government's value to voters, it can also be aimed at lawmakers themselves. Faced with budget cuts in the 1970s, Amtrak announced plans to cease train routes in the home districts of several members of Congress.^[2]

The term was first used after George Hartzog, the seventh director of the National Park Service, closed popular national parks such as the Washington Monument and Grand Canyon National Park for two days a week in 1969. In response to complaints, Congress eventually restored the funding, and Hartzog resigned.^[6"

This is all that is going on

BREAKING NEWS

@gorillamopena: That's CNN, isn't it?

But a walk to where? *cue dramatic music*

That does not somehow make null the idea that slavery is racist. It merely implies the targets of groups considered to be inferior enough to be rendered slaves has not been restricted to one single ethnicity over the course of history.

Given the fact that much of services cut in the face of the government shutdown are far less sexy than national parks and monuments, no, that's not quite all that is going on.

With the current state of redistricting, that's a pipe dream at this point.

Humorously, I've been wondering if this entire state of affairs is something we could blame on Nixon and his creation of the Southern Strategy. Add another point to the world of historical what ifs.

@gorillamopena said:

BREAKING NEWS

He went to get sandwiches.

Are you saying there's nothing sexy about the USDA?

So... this sucks. Like the one hope I had for this situation is that maybe it would be dire enough to force people to educate themselves instead of just blaming the party they hate more. However after having a conversation with my friends they're convinced this is Obama's fault even after I explained what happened. I don't even know where they got their republican mindset, because half of them hold obviously liberal beliefs, so maybe they just believe what their parents told them to? I'm not even a democrat, I think both parties are terrible. Just ugh. This is why I hate all of those commercials that tell people to get out and vote because their opinion matters. If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, maybe don't vote idiot.

And that's why monarchies are the best.

It's probably because he's the president. A lot of people seem to misunderstand how much power the president actually has.

"Never speak of politics in polite company" is probably a fairly familiar phrase to many, and sentiments such as that lie at the core of the problem that is of our own making. Our society have become one that depends on a well informed citizenry to allow for institutions to function, and in the same breath discourage people from discussing the politics and policies that allow for such information to come into being.

It is difficult to "know what the fuck you're talking about" when society at large seem to shy away from talking about it. Discussions of politics should be on the lips of everyone in the world, but the exact opposite seems much closer to the ideal world in many's minds.

I wish politics was this interesting in the UK.All we have is two men yelling at each other every Wednesday afternoon.

People forget it is okay to disagree. For whatever reason, people now think if you disagree with them it is insulting them personally. This pops up even on this board too with controversies like "gender" where it seems some fight pretty hard and are convinced they hate them for a stance they take when it turns out they don't even know each other or even care. It is shouting to just shout and channeling hate just to put it into something.

@turambar said:

Which is pretty funny, considering I'm never willing to talk about politics with my friends because I get annoyed when people have strong opinions about things that they don't even bother to inform themselves about. So the only way to educate them is to talk about it, but talking about it with someone who hasn't been educated is just frustrating. Quite an annoying problem. Not that I'm some expert or anything, but the fact that I mostly know what's happening and why is more than I can say for the friends I was speaking with.

It's hard for people having discussions about sensitive subjects (another way of saying "something actually important") to develop proper etiquette when the opportunity to practice such discussions rarely arise. I don't mean to pick on you specifically, so please don't take offense at the example, but I get the feeling if you and your friends regularly had discussions regarding your political views, it would be much easier to establish level headed discussions, than rare conversations where emotions just boil over the top.

Ron Paul 2012.

@turambar: Probably true! I'll keep that in mind.