American Government is Shut Down!

@oldirtybearon: But it actually isn't in the context of the history of America and the rest of the world. I get how some folks feel the need to get their rhetoric on, but there's a line that when crossed makes you sound completely insane.

Every so often I just can't handle that there are individuals who are elected into positions of power that come across as absolute fucking morons, whether by the stupid-ass shit they do or the stupid-ass shit they say.

Imagine if the law hadn't bent over for the past three years as much as it did, where would we be now?

You know what? Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference and this situation would be exactly the same. Except Public Opinion cannot judge Obama for not being negotiable up until now, which does give him a higher, more mature stance to his side of the deadlock. If the law had stayed unaltered, somehow, up until now, who knows, maybe it would have less chances of winning.

And it may be batshit nuts, but it is a step in the right direction, the first for the United States. I think it's one heck of an achievement, even if it is lackluster as a universal healthcare law per se.

I know next to nothing about this whole thing, being non-American.

But.. I hope your country learns from this and chooses who they vote for more carefully in the future, that said.. you probably should have learned that a long time ago.

Best of luck, Ireland

I dunno, compromise? You seem angry at the notion that the Democrats might be pretty faulty, too.

I didn't just blame the Republicans. I blamed everybody in Congress and the President. The Republicans might have used this as a last resort tactic against the Healthcare bill, but they aren't doing this for shits and giggles. Once in effect, the healthcare bill will place an even bigger financial burden on the people of America, especially the lower middle class that makes too much to get government aid but not really enough to cover the bill. And it will plunge our national debt even more. It's a really, really bad idea to do that.

Oh, and it might be a Republican tactic as @hailinel said, but Obama is absolutely refusing to listen and try to compromise. No one is working together, they're just up there bitching and yelling at each other while this

gets worse and worse and worse. That's an incompetent government. They're a laughingstock right now, every one of them.

But better than what we have now either. And the GOP was at the table when the law was crafted and refused to participate. Or another way to put it: "Obamacare" is probably a bad law because it was GOP's fault.

The GOP were morons while crafting the law. The GOP are morons now. Two wrongs surely make a right if they tell themselves that. Right?

I bet you guys are feeling pretty foolish for rebelling against your King, ね?

@believer258: obama's compromised plenty of times in the past. The compromises offered now are no more than delays of Obamacare by different names.

I'm angry that someone could watch this shitshow and believe it isn't the republicans fault 95% (and the reason it's partially the dem's fault is they've been too soft before). Right now, the republicans are scrambling because their poll numbers have been down since the shutdown started, so obviously the public is aware that they shut down the government and would almost let the country default because they don't like a bill.

Plus, technically, since the dollar is the reserve currency (I don't know much about this butI've heard smarter people than me talk about it) our debt going up isn't actually the worst thing in the world.

It is akin to the billionaire in town taking on a few million in debt. The billions price tag is a lot of money but the US with its trillion dollar economy clearly wealthy enough to handle it.

looooooooooooooool

No, we never learn. My country is fuuuuucked.

And I'm angry that this whole shitshow is happening in the first place.

Again, no politician with a brain on his shoulders would let this sort of thing happen for no good cause. I'm not siding with the Republican tactic of "shut the whole thing down", but I simply cannot agree with the healthcare plan that this whole ruckus seems to be centered around. It's far too damaging to the little guy that wakes up at 6 AM, works for 8 hours a day, and comes home to try and sort out his money to make ends meet, usually with a few prayers under his breath because half the time it doesn't. It's also pretty damaging to the US economy as a whole. I'm no economist nor a politician, but I don't think that any country can continue to pile on debt after debt after debt and then take on a several extra billion dollars at once. Thus, the finger is pointed just as much at Democrats as it is at Republicans. This country is in terrible shape and everyone is arguing over something as stupid as a fucking health care bill. Where are the full-time permanent jobs? Why is the middle class still shrinking? Why is the cost of living going up? Aren't those things more important than a healthcare bill that just makes things worse?

But the debt the US has is not bad compared to GDP. The question becomes: Which is the bigger weight on the economy? Lots of money is now spent across all sectors of the economy on a product no one likes and is highly wasteful. The US Debt itself is manageable due to several factors (some of it is unique).

People can say "How can the US keep spending?" but I wonder "How can people keep going bankrupt just for getting sick?" Why can't we recognize both are big problems and tackle them?

It would be nice is something good came out of the government being shutdown, the government has not been for the people for a long time now and the people need to have a say in the government.

Again, stop drawing party lines. Democrats were just as moronic when crafting the law. Now that it has gone into affect, Obamacare has pushed private insurance premiums sky-high (some as high as a 300% increase). The website for Obamacare registration barely works, and even then, there are thousands upon thousands of people who are looking at the price of the "Affordable" Care Act and realizing that it's still too costly for them.

Moreover, the Democrats and GOP both didn't think about how this will affect medical practice overall. Medicare and Medicaid are already rarely taken in private practices due to the slow payout (if there's any payout at all). Obamacare will force private practice hands even harder to stop taking socialized health care (as well as most HMOs, they hate that shit). In turn, the addition of socialized health care will solve nothing.

The best thing to do would be to completely eliminate health insurance as a whole and take doctors back to what they did in the first place: accepted payment how THEY wanted to accept it. Unfortunately, because of the continued efforts of the people to "get free money" by throwing out frivolous lawsuits, we've created an atmosphere where insurance, malpractice insurance, and multiple other junk has to be in place. We say it's to protect all involved, but it's not. It all comes down to the NEW American mindset: "how can I get as much free money as possible without doing anything?"

This is what the "American dream" has devolved to. It's not about opportunity anymore. It's about being dumb as shit, doing absolutely nothing, and feeding off others for as much money as you can. If you don't believe me, walk the streets or stand around in a gas station for a little while.

The American people like to sit idly by while they are getting raped in every way possible. They WANT to have shit like ammoniated beef and high fructose corn syrup shoveled down their throats, and they want it available on every fucking street corner possible. They WANT to sit around and watch TV all day, play video games, and do nothing else. If they can't do that, they bitch and complain about it, whining like a 5-year-old until they get what they want. It's how they were raised. They WANT to live in houses they cannot afford, cars they cannot afford, have clothes they cannot afford, wear jewelry they cannot afford, and if someone has something they don't have, you better believe they will bitch and complain until they do have it.

That's the problem: people look at "all men are created equal" and believe that it means "we should all have the same thing." That's not the purpose of that statement at all, though. All men are created equal...meaning that they all have the opportunity to do great things, build great legacies, become something more and do something great with their lives. Instead, the modern interpretation of this is "bitch, I want a smartphone too."

Modern America believes in socialism, that everyone should BE equal in lifestyle. Once FDR instituted Social Security during the New Deal, the redistribution of the wealth started. With Medicaid, Medicare, Federal Income Tax (more specifically the Earned Income Credit portion of it) and Social Security, redistribution of the wealth has been something America has practiced for many decades. We've been a socialist nation for a while, but no one wants to see it or realize it.

So whatever. Obamacare was the next step. It's a bullshit law. As a nation that is supposed to be about being having a choice, having freedom, we should not be FORCED to have something...ever.

I wasn't excusing The Dems. Just saying trying to point out the GOP is complaining about a bad law the helped create it. Again and again and again I specifically point out that "Obamacare" is probably bad but I also point out it isn't as bad as the opponents make it out to be. It is predicated on the idea we can't afford to handle it but yet the country can afford sending a bunch of people to bankruptcy which seems wholly crazy. And since when do you have a choice with your health insurance??? If you are married you are lucky you have 2 distinct plans.

So I don't know....the current system is borked but people claim "Obamacare" is borked. I just have to shrug when people claim that "Obamacare is the worst" because I know of a system that is much worse today.

@jakob187: I wish we were a socialist nation tbqh. At least then we'd have single payer.

(Bernie Sanders owns bones)

“We can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”

― Winston Churchill

It's also a shitstorm on a per-state basis...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-10-2013/medican-t----taker--states

You have no idea what Affordable care act is all about, do you? ACA is actually projected to reduce our national deficit by 200 billion in the next 10 years, according to CBO. Oh, and the imaginary person that you are describing in your post is just that, imaginary. Read this and then maybe you will begin to grasp what ACA means for the "little person". PS: if your income is so low that 8% of it can't cover a mandated health care package; you are exempt from ACA.

No, this thread looks like it's gonna go on a while.

8% is pretty goddamn large. That's the sales tax in NYS, and let me tell you, it gets pretty substantial when you're buying high-ticket items. I can only imagine what it would look like being taken out of income.

The hell? I thought I was done addressing one Philistine in this thread and then here comes chiablo stumbling into this thread with his nonsense rant.

Chiablo; where are you getting that 300% figure from? I want citations. Read up the article that I linked to believer whatever in the post below yours. You haven't educated yourself to know that if the healthcare package that you are shopping for is too costly for you to afford then the government will subsidize your health care plan up to the point that you only pay for 1/10th of the original cost.

As for the rest of your post, you don't understand what tyranny means. Passing a governmental law through which alleviation of toil and poverty is one step closer to becoming reality by distributing burden among all is not tyranny. Its called progress.

Ad hominem. Doesn't impress me.

@k9 said:

I'm not saying you're wrong with your politics, but calling people "Philistines" and being as dismissive as you were based on calling @believer258 "believer whatever" leads me to think you have a bit of a superiority complex. And for the record, I wasn't trying to impress anyone.

for the record, all the discussion about Obamacare being good or bad ITT is pointless since it's law. I'm certainly not it's biggest fan, but still.

Last I heard, Mcconnell and Reid have reached a tentative agreement (government continuing operation until january, debt limit at febuary, no repeals of any part of Obamacare)

And calling people "Philistine" is what again?

I think you're confusing me for someone else, Mr. CrazyPerson. You're already getting pretty close to the "personal attack" line as is, you should probably take a break from this thread for a while.

Exactly, thank you.

@k9: You're talking to the wrong person. @chiablo didn't mention the 300% increase, only quoted it. You'll want to address @jakob187.

Why is it pointless? Something being a law certainly shouldn't exempt it from being discussed or criticized.

If the personal attacks don't stop, the topic will just be closed. Please play nice.

@theht: Eh. I never said people couldn't do it, I'm just saying it's pointless atm because we still barely know what's going on about it plus the topic really isn't about that.

I was not pre judging. I was judging. And I was not saying believer is wrong because he is a philistine. The opposite was the case.

As for chiablo, my apologies. The block of text by Jacob obfuscated your one line of post. Unless you believe everything that Jacob wrote in that post. Then just assume that my post was direct at both of you.

I don't remember personally attacking anybody, so that was kind of uncalled for. But if you're going to call somebody a "philistine", you should probably use a lowercase p since it's an insult and not referencing my nationality.

Just a bit of helpful advice, that's all.

Like government closed?

It's ok though, we'll gerrymander our way into another thread and begin this mess again. :p

Oh my godddddddd. You people have no idea what you're talking about. Just stop. I agree with MB; and if you're gonna be an ass anyway you might wanna research your own rhetoric before hitting that reply button. Stop thinking with your emotions, people. Expand your horizons. Try and see things from others' points of view. I don't think I could count high enough to tally all the logical fallacies going on in here. Just... stop. Please. For your own sake.

i just beat Nier and i liked it a fair bit but i thought it was a bit heavy handed in places

Thanks, Obama.

And people say civil discussions about topical issues can't be done on the internet.

Others have already called this piece out as being an emotional rant with some inaccurate impressions of policy, so I'll let those be. The greater issue for me comes with the mythology you seem to have bought into to form this idyllic idea of the American dream. Let's spend a moment and break that down, shall we?

You speak of Modern America's infatuation with socialism, and places its starting point with FDR's New Deal policies, but that is simply historical short-sightedness on your part. The idea of Progressive Taxation, the idea that those that makes more pay a higher percentage, and I'm sure what you'd call "redistribution of wealth", was passed as a Constitutional Amendment in 1913. The core idea for the amendment, the graduated income tax, dates even earlier to the late 1800s.

You speak of the US as a nation of choice, and insinuate that socialist ideals remove choice. However, you had best understand that the progressive beginnings of what you seem to hate came from combating a lack of choice. The many progressive policies passed in the early 1900s were designed to be a counter weight to the growing strength of trusts and monopolies that had come to dominate both the economic and political landscape, thus, removing choice from the table of the citizenry.

The bottom line: the historical narrative you've woven is a false one. That which you seem to think made America great is inaccurate. What you think America currently is, doubly so.

As I've said previously, both the economic and political system of the US demands one thing to work properly: a well informed populace. Letting factual discrepancies of policy and faulty understanding of history color your emotions and opinions, and you aren't making choices so much as dancing to the tune of another.

@turambar: You're, like, the only smart person in this thread.

That's what I was thinking, too, since his entire rant fits oh so well with big business. (There's a better way of putting that. I just don't know it.)

That's a bit hyperbolic. There are people in this thread that are far more competent in dissecting and analyzing specific Affordable Healthcare Act policies. My expertise just happens to be in a different field.

Sounds like things are wrapping up: government is funded till January 15th, debt limit till Febuary 7th, republicans get stronger income verification (I have no idea what that actually means) and democrats get a delay on a reinsurance tax for a year (I also do not know what this means).

The current plan anyway, we'll see if it passes in the house (though moderate R's are pushing it too, so probably)

@believer258: So you're saying you're excluding yourself? :3

Emotional rant or not, @jakob187 totally nailed it.

I would hate to be poor in his version of America even more so than this one