@PrivateIronTFU: i'm trying to make a point here, someone is discrediting my points without any sort of credible counter evidence or points. I'm done with this thread, do whatever you want.
Also to fajita jim, don't turn your back to an enemy, always keep your back to the walls and stuff before you get out of there. It's the same with weapon disarming, you don't just turn around until you really neutralized the threat. Then again live and learn. That's why getting away quickly is important after the fight, he could get up and chase you and punch you the in the back of the head.
If this was in the United States and she had a gun and she shot the drunken idiot in the head once he followed her home it would of been an easy case of "Good job defending yourself little Missy". Whats worse, a dead guy or a guy who got the shit beaten out of him for being drunk and creepy? I feel like the fine probably was unnecessary.
I also feel like details are being left out. For example it seems like she did not call the police after the incident went down. That may have been her mistake. They only said the police found this douche bag in an alley.
@HitmanAgent47: Self defense training is a great thing to have but you cant reasonably expect a 19 year old to have it or for that matter most people all-together. If a young women is cornered and any countless number of horrible things like rape or abduction come to her mind shes not going to think clearly, its a horrible injustice to fine HER for defending herself even beyond reasonable means because its not like she planed it or thought it through. With all the horrible people in the world these days its not even fair to try and fine or punish a GIRL for beating the shit out of a MAN thats twice her age who confronts her.
@dudy80: it's only a fine, she doesn't have to go to jail, so it's okay. I agree the law should allow us to use more force than necessary. But that's not the case unfortunely. Also it's good to be well informed about self defense and the laws surrounding it. Maybe most of us don't care because we don't think we will be attacked and it happened to someone else. Suprisingly there are like a lot of females taking krav maga in my class too, so some are informed and invested the time to learn how to defend themselves.
Oh, you mean your nicety of an opening remark "Fuck off"? Yes, I have left guys on the ground APPARENTLY UNCONSCIOUS (I rolled him over with my foot) only to have them attack me from behind. What, you think people are too stupid to 'play dead' or are you just too stupid to think 'play dead' yourself? Self defense is ALWAYS the rational thing to do. I'd hate to have you as a father..."Yes, rape my children, just don't ask me to punch you or anything." WTF?
Can you give me some context on this guy playing dead because all your combat experiences sound like they're taken from Bloodsport. And yeah, you probably would hate to have me as a father because I dislike serious hyperbole and your brand of barely suppressed rage at the world as a genuine way of communicating with others wouldn't have stood a chance under my roof.
I'll keep it short, easily agreeable with, and non-flammable: Linked to aggressive behavior, not linked to aggressive actions that someone takes. Think of getting pumped up some heavy music and the like. It's there, it causes this reaction in the person, but doesn't make the person do anything. That's all I meant. Link between =/= Physical outcome
@dudy80: she's not in jail, they judge was being nice to her. That's my point, a fine is better than that. You can't stomp some guy in a coma over and over.
@Fajita_Jim: If a hooded man follows you home and you shoot him, without asking questions, without him having actually attacked you, without trying to flee. Good luck with successfully arguing self defence. You'll find the legal system in which ever US state you live treats you in a similar fashion to the way the Scottish legal system would.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't have to wait for someone to attack before I attack them if I fear an attack is imminent. I am not even duty-bound to retreat. And I don't even have to be on my own property.
You still have to prove a reasonable assumption of fear of peril of death or serious bodily injury under Tennessee's law. If you actually read the facts of the case, ignoring The Edinburgh Evening News' inflammatory language (and as a resident of Edinburgh I am well aware of this newspaper's journalistic standards) you'll find there is nothing in the story that suggests a reasonable assumption of fear would be a viable argument. I guarantee you, in the same circumstances, if you were to shoot the man, even in Tennessee, you would find yourself in real trouble.
She did go too far but I can hardly blame her. Fuck that guy. Had she been unconscious he probably would have done much worse. I probably would have given her a slap on the wrist at worst.
@PrivateIronTFU: i'm trying to make a point here, someone is discrediting my points without any sort of credible counter evidence or points. I'm done with this thread, do whatever you want. Also to fajita jim, don't turn your back to an enemy, always keep your back to the walls and stuff before you get out of there. It's the same with weapon disarming, you don't just turn around until you really neutralized the threat. Then again live and learn. That's why getting away quickly is important after the fight, he could get up and chase you and punch you the in the back of the head.
@ShaggyChu: I'll keep it short, easily agreeable with, and non-flammable: Linked to aggressive behavior, not linked to aggressive actions that someone takes. Think of getting pumped up some heavy music and the like. It's there, it causes this reaction in the person, but doesn't make the person do anything. That's all I meant. Link between =/= Physical outcome
Oh, okay. I thought you were one of those crazies who think violent video games "make", or are the direct cause for violent outbursts. I can see the logic behind what you're saying.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
@dudy80: don't think I disagree with you, I don't. But the law is the law.
@EuanDewar: it didn't stop alot of my classmates who are females investing the time to learn how to defend themselves properly did it? In fact your right, almost no 19 year old girl knows anything about self defense laws. But think about it if they are all trained in self defense, it might reduce crimes against women in general. I'm only saying, but they don't want to take the time to learn. They like to think they are living in a democratic place where it won't happen to them, rather someone else. Ppl needs to change their perception and if assault is such a part of society, maybe ppl should be more welll prepared. I'm not blaming the victim, i'm just saying americans are uninformed.
@dudy80: she's not in jail, they judge was being nice to her. That's my point, a fine is better than that. You can't stomp some guy in a coma over and over.
Look. I'm an level 75 wizard. I am well trained in elemental and arcane sorcery. I can cast fireballs, do a buff of protection, and AoE multiple opponents trying to get away. What experience do you have to tell me I'm wrong? Absolutely nothing.
@Fajita_Jim: how about walk sideways, at least you can see him. Not a great place trying to get away on a school bus of course. It's very narrow and stuff. You live and learn.
@Fajita_Jim: If a hooded man follows you home and you shoot him, without asking questions, without him having actually attacked you, without trying to flee. Good luck with successfully arguing self defence. You'll find the legal system in which ever US state you live treats you in a similar fashion to the way the Scottish legal system would.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't have to wait for someone to attack before I attack them if I fear an attack is imminent. I am not even duty-bound to retreat. And I don't even have to be on my own property.
You still have to prove a reasonable assumption of fear of peril of death or serious bodily injury under Tennessee's law. If you actually read the facts of the case, ignoring The Edinburgh Evening News' inflammatory language (and as a resident of Edinburgh I am well aware of this newspaper's journalistic standards) you'll find there is nothing in the story that suggests a reasonable assumption of fear would be a viable argument. I guarantee you, in the same circumstances, if you were to shoot the man, even in Tennessee, you would find yourself in real trouble.
Being attacked isn't a reasonable assumption of fear? Since when?
And read the law again: A masked man following me to my house (meaning he's on my property) is most definitely a reasonable assumption of fear. The highlighted OR is of great legal importance in the following:
The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury must be real, orhonestly believed to be real at the time, and must be founded upon reasonable grounds.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
@dudy80: don't think I disagree with you, I don't. But the law is the law.
@EuanDewar: it didn't stop alot of my classmates who are females investing the time to learn how to defend themselves properly did it? In fact your right, almost no 19 year old girl knows anything about self defense laws. But think about it if they are all trained in self defense, it might reduce crimes against women in general. I'm only saying, but they don't want to take the time to learn. They like to think they are living in a democratic place where it won't happen to them, rather someone else. Ppl needs to change their perception and if assault is such a part of society, maybe ppl should be more welll prepared. I'm not blaming the victim, i'm just saying americans are uninformed.
I agree most would not take self defense anyways but out of curiosity how much dose that cost? I cant imagine its the cheapest thing in the world.
@dudy80: she's not in jail, they judge was being nice to her. That's my point, a fine is better than that. You can't stomp some guy in a coma over and over.
Look. I'm an level 75 wizard. I am well trained in elemental and arcane sorcery. I can cast fireballs, do a buff of protection, and AoE multiple opponents trying to get away. What experience do you have to tell me I'm wrong? Absolutely nothing.
@Fajita_Jim: how about walk sideways, at least you can see him. Not a great place trying to get away on a school bus of course. It's very narrow and stuff. You live and learn.
Mostly because I was just in a fight, I was hurting, and to get up the bus steps I was using the handrail.
@dudy80: don't think I disagree with you, I don't. But the law is the law.
@EuanDewar: it didn't stop alot of my classmates who are females investing the time to learn how to defend themselves properly did it? In fact your right, almost no 19 year old girl knows anything about self defense laws. But think about it if they are all trained in self defense, it might reduce crimes against women in general. I'm only saying, but they don't want to take the time to learn. They like to think they are living in a democratic place where it won't happen to them, rather someone else. Ppl needs to change their perception and if assault is such a part of society, maybe ppl should be more welll prepared. I'm not blaming the victim, i'm just saying americans are uninformed.
You're uninformed about Americans if you think that shit matters. If you pull that Krav Maga shit here, you're going to get shot by about a dozen guys all wearing the same clothes.
Seriously, in America, you're more likely to run into someone carrying a gun than you are someone who ate at McDonalds this week. That fancy geometry shit will get a few smirks before they do you in, so at least you'll humor them twice.
@dudy80: No it's not that cheap, but krav maga is easy to learn, after like maybe 6 months, you should be able to deal with basic attacks. Few years, you should be able to deal with sparring, weapon disarming to a point where it's second nature and very specific advanced stuff. They try to simply krav maga, it was built to teach isreali soilders with absolutely no martial experience to get up to a high level very quickly. Cops uses to use it at certain states too, coast guards, fbi, swat, but maybe they are using it less now. Maybe a near a decade ago they needed something that's easy to learn and easy to apply. Alot of krav maga is about instinctive reactions, which makes it easy to learn. Like if something tried to put your hands around your throat, you pluck the hands to the side, since your hands are going to be around your neck anyways, then kick them in the groin full power. After that, you clich them knee them in the ribs and head until they are down, then you learn how to get away from the situation. Since they are simplying the techniques so it's easy to apply and basing it on reflexes, maybe 4-6 months will be enough to a point where you can apply it. Sparring helps too, might get punched in the face when you start out, but you get better, it helps your co-ordination and self defense. So really about money, you don't need to stay in krav maga forever, most miltary only gets a short course in it and deploys in isreal. More special forces spends even more time at it for longer hours and days. It's a military course that is allowed for civilians now. I say half a year, compared to something like jiu-jitsu which takes years before you can use it well. It's faster than most martial arts, it's not even considered a martial art, it's a self defense system.
And read the law again: A masked man following me to my house (meaning he's on my property) is most definitely a reasonable assumption of fear. The highlighted OR is of great legal importance in the following:
The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury must be real, orhonestly believed to be real at the time, and must be founded upon reasonable grounds.
"and must be founded upon reasonable grounds" is of great legal importance too. You don't decide what those grounds are, the court does. Whether or not you honestly believe the danger to be real at the time, the court still has to accept that the belief is reasonable.
@Fajita_Jim: Sorry but as a gun owner personally i call total bs on this, yes lots of people have guns in there homes but less then 10 percent carry a pistol, at least legally.
You're uninformed about Americans if you think that shit matters. If you pull that Krav Maga shit here, you're going to get shot by about a dozen guys all wearing the same clothes. Seriously, in America, you're more likely to run into someone carrying a gun than you are someone who ate at McDonalds this week. That fancy geometry shit will get a few smirks before they do you in, so at least you'll humor them twice.
Where the fuck in America do you live? Bum-fuck Hick Town?
@Fajita_Jim: your talking about gangs, I stay away from them. If they attack, i'll just quickly defend and run. They don't just go and attack civilians rather other gangs. Other times someone pulls a gun they are going to demand money, give it to them. If they take you somewhere else to execute you, then go for the disarm. I'm sure most ppl aren't going to be fighting gang members which they do have guns because that's stupid. But if your attacked on the streets and they didn't pull out a knife or gun yet, I will use krav maga, rather than just getting hospitalized. So your saying there is no point in applying self defense because everyone has a gun? Well everyone in isreal has a gun, they still use it.
As dudy80 said, you need a conceal weapons permit to carry a gun out there. Cops carries guns and so do gangs, but if I had to deal with gangs, i'll just hit and run, then call the cops. I don't think they are always going to just attack ppl, those who gets assassinated are always into drugs and it's a drug related crime.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
Didn't read the thread, hunh?
She kept kicking him while he was unconscious. She took it too far. First it was self defense and that was alright, but then it became an attack. Just because you're a victim does not mean you can also become an attacker and get away free.
And read the law again: A masked man following me to my house (meaning he's on my property) is most definitely a reasonable assumption of fear. The highlighted OR is of great legal importance in the following:
The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury must be real, orhonestly believed to be real at the time, and must be founded upon reasonable grounds.
"and must be founded upon reasonable grounds" is of great legal importance too. You don't decide what those grounds are, the court does. Whether or not you honestly believe the danger to be real at the time, the court still has to accept that the belief is reasonable.
Right. What jury would think a masked man following you to your doorstep isn't a threat? Remember, this is a jury of peers, not a jury of lawyers.
You're uninformed about Americans if you think that shit matters. If you pull that Krav Maga shit here, you're going to get shot by about a dozen guys all wearing the same clothes. Seriously, in America, you're more likely to run into someone carrying a gun than you are someone who ate at McDonalds this week. That fancy geometry shit will get a few smirks before they do you in, so at least you'll humor them twice.
Where the fuck in America do you live? Bum-fuck Hick Town?
Also to talk about this specific situation for one second, this happened in Scotland. Over here in the UK its either a dude with a knife against an unarmed guy or a gang of people against one guy, it operates in that chickenshit, handicapped way or it doesn't operate at all. Krav Maga aint gonna save you from 15 chavs kicking you in the stomach.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
Didn't read the thread, hunh?
She kept kicking him while he was unconscious. She took it too far. First it was self defense and that was alright, but then it became an attack. Just because you're a victim does not mean you can also become an attacker and get away free.
Yea, cus a small fine is going to make me think twice before i smash a guys face in because he trys to attack me. Wont happen again officer!
You're uninformed about Americans if you think that shit matters. If you pull that Krav Maga shit here, you're going to get shot by about a dozen guys all wearing the same clothes. Seriously, in America, you're more likely to run into someone carrying a gun than you are someone who ate at McDonalds this week. That fancy geometry shit will get a few smirks before they do you in, so at least you'll humor them twice.
Where the fuck in America do you live? Bum-fuck Hick Town?
Oak Ridge, Tennessee. We actually have one of the highest rates of PhDs in the nation due to the Y-12 National Security Complex (the Fort Knox of nuclear weapons and nuclear research), Oak Ridge National Laboratory (particle accelerators, quantum physics, worlds fastest computer, etc.) and the former X-10 and K-25 plants.
This town was build for The Manhattan Project. As such, a lot of multi-unit housing went up fast, and was meant to be temporary. Much of it is still there, and it's low-income (obviously), and spread all over the city. These buildings are where the gangs and shit originate from, and now Meth has reared it's ugly head and home invasions around here are on the rise. There's been a few homeowners this year alone kill home intruders.
Go to Oakridger.com and look through the archives.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
Didn't read the thread, hunh?
She kept kicking him while he was unconscious. She took it too far. First it was self defense and that was alright, but then it became an attack. Just because you're a victim does not mean you can also become an attacker and get away free.
Yea, cus a small fine is going to make me think twice before i smash a guys face in because he trys to attack me. Wont happen again officer!
@Fajita_Jim: Sorry but as a gun owner personally i call total bs on this, yes lots of people have guns in there homes but less then 10 percent carry a pistol, at least legally.
'At least legally' is your crutch here, because I'm going to give you some information that may be new to you: Most people who carry guns don't do so legally.
Lots of stabbings happens in the u.k I am aware of that, but you can protect yourself getting stabbed from krav maga, maybe no slashed, but obviously you can't fight 15 ppl. But if it's like one or two, you can at least kick the guy down, or go for a disarm. It's better than getting stabbed with no training, then you can create an opening where you can run away as fast as possible. I doubt they will bother chasing you that far if you hurt them in the process or you ran futher away then they can run. So running away or learning how to escape is an important part of self defense. If you faced many, the advice is just to preemptively attack the leader and hurt him badly, then run. The others won't chase you as much that way if the leader is hurt. Then call the cops and indentify them or not. But some situations you can't really do anything about. But it's good to have some self defense tools. Gangs will fight other gangs more over drugs. If you don't bother gangs, they won't bother you.
Maybe it's good to get a conceal weapons permit and carry a knife with you at all times. I know some ppl who carries a knife with them everywhere they go for self defense.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
Didn't read the thread, hunh?
She kept kicking him while he was unconscious. She took it too far. First it was self defense and that was alright, but then it became an attack. Just because you're a victim does not mean you can also become an attacker and get away free.
Yea, cus a small fine is going to make me think twice before i smash a guys face in because he trys to attack me. Wont happen again officer!
500 pounds is hardly a small fine.
All things considered its fairly petty. I just mean that if you think that anyone would stop and say to themselves "i better stop beating this guy so i dont get a 500 pound fine" your crazy. Its a bogus fine really and is kida like when i get a ticket for going 45 in a 40.
@Fajita_Jim: Sorry but as a gun owner personally i call total bs on this, yes lots of people have guns in there homes but less then 10 percent carry a pistol, at least legally.
'At least legally' is your crutch here, because I'm going to give you some information that may be new to you: Most people who carry guns don't do so legally.
Most that dont are also criminals. Theres no good reason to have a unregistered weapon in my opinion, if you have it for self defense and you have to use it thats going to go over great when you have to explain that to the police.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
Didn't read the thread, hunh?
She kept kicking him while he was unconscious. She took it too far. First it was self defense and that was alright, but then it became an attack. Just because you're a victim does not mean you can also become an attacker and get away free.
The question becomes did she know he was unconscious. Ever been in a fight? Your awareness narrows to a very narrow focus (mentally, not visually) and you're really NOT THINKING AT ALL. If you think while you fight, you're getting your ass kicked.
Why do you think martial artists do their Katas or whatever? It's all muscle memory, not brain matter. You don't think when you fight, you fall back on training...training being LEARNED INSTINCT. If you haven't been trained, then all you have to fall back on is ANIMAL INSTINCT.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
Didn't read the thread, hunh?
She kept kicking him while he was unconscious. She took it too far. First it was self defense and that was alright, but then it became an attack. Just because you're a victim does not mean you can also become an attacker and get away free.
Yea, cus a small fine is going to make me think twice before i smash a guys face in because he trys to attack me. Wont happen again officer!
500 pounds is hardly a small fine.
All things considered its fairly petty. I just mean that if you think that anyone would stop and say to themselves "i better stop beating this guy so i dont get a 500 pound fine" your crazy. Its a bogus fine really and is kida like when i get a ticket for going 45 in a 40.
That's not really even the thought that person should be having. Instead she should have thought, "This man is unconscious now, I need to stop".
@Fajita_Jim: your talking about gangs, I stay away from them. If they attack, i'll just quickly defend and run. They don't just go and attack civilians rather other gangs. Other times someone pulls a gun they are going to demand money, give it to them. If they take you somewhere else to execute you, then go for the disarm. I'm sure most ppl aren't going to be fighting gang members which they do have guns because that's stupid. But if your attacked on the streets and they didn't pull out a knife or gun yet, I will use krav maga, rather than just getting hospitalized. So your saying there is no point in applying self defense because everyone has a gun? Well everyone in isreal has a gun, they still use it. As dudy80 said, you need a conceal weapons permit to carry a gun out there. Cops carries guns and so do gangs, but if I had to deal with gangs, i'll just hit and run, then call the cops. I don't think they are always going to just attack ppl, those who gets assassinated are always into drugs and it's a drug related crime.
You think gangs have a code of honor like the Mob? You think they only attack other gangs? Where the fuck have you been for the past 30 years? Tell that to my friend Mark Santos because he was killed by the local KT simply for being Hispanic and getting gas at the wrong BP.
Oh, fuck off, Fajita_Jim. Stick to your dewey decimals instead of trying to work out why continuing to assault an unconscious man needs some kind of recompense.
Fuck you, too, bitch.
Honestly she really shouldn't have kept kicking.... that's messed up.
Didn't read the thread, hunh?
She kept kicking him while he was unconscious. She took it too far. First it was self defense and that was alright, but then it became an attack. Just because you're a victim does not mean you can also become an attacker and get away free.
The question becomes did she know he was unconscious. Ever been in a fight? Your awareness narrows to a very narrow focus (mentally, not visually) and you're really NOT THINKING AT ALL. If you think while you fight, you're getting your ass kicked. Why do you think martial artists do their Katas or whatever? It's all muscle memory, not brain matter. You don't think when you fight, you fall back on training...training being LEARNED INSTINCT. If you haven't been trained, then all you have to fall back on is ANIMAL INSTINCT.
Pretty easy to tell if someone is unconscious. They kinda stop moving.
What fajita jim is saying is the fight or flight, or freeze adrenline response. Most of the time fine motor skills breaks down, so that's why it's all gross motor skills in krav maga, they don't break down when your fearful. Look at muay thai kick boxing, those ppl can really kick hard, or knees. These moves don't fail because it's gross motor skills. Also there are no katas in most self defense or krav maga. But it is about instinctive reaction.
I suppose in the old days during the cavemen era, we needed this adrenal response to run away from tigers and stuff, or fight back against animals, giving you a narrow vision or focus and adrenline pumping though your veins. It can almost make you super human in strength, but it won't last long, you get tired very easily, so that's why I said you need to get away fast.
Kiera is right thinking that. Like this man is unconcious, I need to get away from this situation because I can escape.
Log in to comment