this is many months old...wtf is is going on here
Penny Arcade Controversy
" @NoDeath: People were also offended by their apology, because it made the people who were offended out to be the bad guy. "Because they are the bad guys. They said that the Penny Arcade creators were supporters of rape. They didn't say, "Hey this offends me but that's okay." They literally accused the creators of advocating rape.
Fuck them.
The guy defended making jokes about rape because he thought the strip was funny anyway? That's retarded, and, nothing they have ever produced is funny. Personally I am not entirely bothered by any of it, but then I am not a rape victim of dickwolves or otherwise. I frequently exercise my very easy right not to log on to their website already due to my previously stated belief they aren't funny.
Yeah, you really don't get what is going on here. As with most things, it's way more complicated than good people vs. stupid people." @DonutFever said:
" @NoDeath: People were also offended by their apology, because it made the people who were offended out to be the bad guy. "Because they are the bad guys. They said that the Penny Arcade creators were supporters of rape. They didn't say, "Hey this offends me but that's okay." They literally accused the creators of advocating rape. Fuck them. "
PA ran the comic. I found it funny and clever. People like members of the borderhouseblog found it offensive. They considered "rape" to be the joke, which may not be how I read it, but it's what they saw. One of their writers criticizes the cartoon in a story.
Here's the problem: Gabe posted this little news bit,
"(Trigger Warning for attempts to coerce laughter through foul language, Dungeons, Dice rolling, contempt for Hydra’s bodily autonomy,Dragons,)
One of my favorite events at PAX Prime this year was our live D&D game. I sat down with Tycho, Scott Kurtz, Wil Wheaton and our DM Chris Perkins for one of the best games of D&D I’ve ever played. If you missed it at PAX, you can now watch the entire game over on the WOTC site.
Oh and we all dressed up like our characters. Seriously, you gotta see these videos.
-Gabe out"
That first thing, that trigger warning, mocks a method of avoiding psychological trauma for those that have suffered past pains. Essentially, for someone living after being raped or undergoing other traumatic events, the mere reading of intense descriptions can be damaging. It's a safeguard that people swear by and Gabe (Mike) mocking it there is really low. That the next post sells Dickwolves t-shirts made the connection obvious, and I think it's there the real problem began: http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=2968
Sometimes funny people make dickish decisions. It happens. Removing a silly t-shirt for a silly joke is not a fight worth fighting when the alternative is continuing to offend and dismay those who honestly suffer and just want a more open PAX. I'm glad the PA guys came to their senses about that, even if they still don't get the big deal.
Guys, stop attacking things you don't understand.
I have a friend who's gone to PAX every time it has happened and even he was offended by this Dickwolves thing.
Next joke he cracks about PAX is "You know what could be fun? If someone brought RapeLay along with them and set up a panel to talk about it"
Humans are scum
Like I said in my blog, I think too many people aren't considering that those people just thought that joke was tasteless and not the fact that that topic was used. I'm sure Jeff and Ryan have heard and loved many jokes and dicks, tits and ass before, but they were pissed at Leisure Suit Larry BOB. What some of you guys are doing is akin to if you looked at that video and called Jeff and Ryan pussies because they couldn't "handle it". They just thought that those just were unfunny and tasteless, it may have very little to do with the topic at hand but the bad jokes that were made.
All Penny Arcade would have to do is say that they did not intend the comic to be as mean spirited or as tasteless as some people perceived it and that's it, not make merchandise that kind of banks on the mocking of those that have a different opinion than them, and the "trigger warning" thing. All of this is in bad form Hey, they can do whatever they want, but I would not have done any of this. Even if they or you thought the cartoon was funny, everyone has different opinions and when you feel someone has crossed the line you have every right to speak yours. It doesn't mean that they want them to stop making comics or that they think the PA guys support rape, just that they think the PA guys made a tasteless joke.
@Meowshi said:
Who said that? The comics were associated with and represented rape culture ( which is a whole different bag of potatoes than saying that they advocated rape) but I don't think it was ever said that they supported rape, at least not in the literal way that you're implying. Maybe one person said that, but they do not represent the general comments of the people who disagree with PA on this issue." @DonutFever said:
Because they are the bad guys. They said that the Penny Arcade creators were supporters of rape. They didn't say, "Hey this offends me but that's okay." They literally accused the creators of advocating rape. Fuck them. "" @NoDeath: People were also offended by their apology, because it made the people who were offended out to be the bad guy. "
Didn't even know there was a controversy over that strip. Guess I misunderstood the joke because all I saw was a slave that won't get rescued because the hero had already rescued the five slaves needed to complete the quest. :P
This is one of those topics where I'd really just like to launch into a rant. But it's Monday morning, and I haven't had enough coffee.
Suffice to say: The world in general needs to get the FUCK over themselves, stop being offended at every little fucking thing, and stop stifling everyone else's freedoms because they might say something offensive.
FUCK.
" Wait...rape jokes are off-limits now? oO I can still make jokes about the holocaust, slavery and women rights, right? "Of course!
"While I think it's silly that people got that upset over it, Gabe's right and they did the right thing. At least, they did the right thing to keep PAX as intended. That said, this will have all been forgotten in a week so everyone should just carry on. "
I get that they'll work really hard to keep PAX an open a friendly place, but stopping sales on the shirt is half of a solution. They could either ask people not to wear the shirt, or officially ban it and refuse access to anybody showing it. Or they could put in a dress-code. It's all a huge bag of worms with no good solution. I think their best course of action is to just ask people to not wear offensive clothes. That even falls under the well-established Wheaton's Law. They already banned booth-babes (mostly), so this wouldn't even be a huge departure.
Personally I think they should re-issue the shirt. Exactly the same, but with the word "dick" removed.
But then people would see the shirt and be reminded of the old shirt, which would remind them of the word "dickwolves" which would remind them of a comic strip on the internet about World of Warcraft that kind of, sort of had a rape "joke" in it." @aurahack said:
"While I think it's silly that people got that upset over it, Gabe's right and they did the right thing. At least, they did the right thing to keep PAX as intended. That said, this will have all been forgotten in a week so everyone should just carry on. "I get that they'll work really hard to keep PAX an open a friendly place, but stopping sales on the shirt is half of a solution. They could either ask people not to wear the shirt, or officially ban it and refuse access to anybody showing it. Or they could put in a dress-code. It's all a huge bag of worms with no good solution. I think their best course of action is to just ask people to not wear offensive clothes. That even falls under the well-established Wheaton's Law. They already banned booth-babes (mostly), so this wouldn't even be a huge departure.
Personally I think they should re-issue the shirt. Exactly the same, but with the word "dick" removed.
"
Only I who see the ironic in saying in one sentence that everyone is welcome and then saying in the next that certain people (booth babes) are not welcome? =P
" "PAX is a different matter though. We want PAX to be a place were everyone feels welcome and we’ve worked really hard to make that happen. From not allowing booth babes to making sure we have panels that represent all our attendees." Only I who see the ironic in saying in one sentence that everyone is welcome and then saying in the next that certain people (booth babes) are not welcome? =P "There's a pretty clear difference between people who are interested in attending a conference that speaks to their personal interests and women paid by game publishers to be fake-friendly while wearing revealing clothing.
Anyone else think that if they changed the phrase to 'fucked by the dickwolves' nobody would say anything?
I think people just look for certain words to be upset about without even looking at context. In this case, they are just using 'rape' as a proxy for 'unimaginably bad situation'.
Well, I can't say I expected a good troll reply, but this is just sad. Try a little harder next time and maybe you can reach mediocrity." @Shady said:
" @ryanwho: I don't need to know what you do with your leisure time. "So you came in here looking for need-to-know info? This is time you coulda spent working on your One Piece slashfiction. Your time is valuable, don't spend it all here. "
I think rape jokes are rather tasteless, and even seeing a drawing of a skinny, old guy crying and talking about being raped is just... bleh. But at the end of the day, I'm not disproportionally offended by it. I looked at it and just said, "meh." Then I continued living my life.
" Um...see no controversy,or humor for that matter. "Yeah, I usually like Penny Arcade but that wasn't funny.
" @YoungFrey said:I like to think that it becomes a joke about censorship and how reactionary people can be. Just like my reaction to an honestly sensitive (but cowardly) act.But then people would see the shirt and be reminded of the old shirt, which would remind them of the word "dickwolves" which would remind them of a comic strip on the internet about World of Warcraft that kind of, sort of had a rape "joke" in it. "" @aurahack said:
"While I think it's silly that people got that upset over it, Gabe's right and they did the right thing. At least, they did the right thing to keep PAX as intended. That said, this will have all been forgotten in a week so everyone should just carry on. "I get that they'll work really hard to keep PAX an open a friendly place, but stopping sales on the shirt is half of a solution. They could either ask people not to wear the shirt, or officially ban it and refuse access to anybody showing it. Or they could put in a dress-code. It's all a huge bag of worms with no good solution. I think their best course of action is to just ask people to not wear offensive clothes. That even falls under the well-established Wheaton's Law. They already banned booth-babes (mostly), so this wouldn't even be a huge departure.
Personally I think they should re-issue the shirt. Exactly the same, but with the word "dick" removed.
"
"However, rape, like any number of traumatic events, is one of those things that can be triggered in a victim's mind, forcing them to go through vivid and painful flashbacks, a lot like Vietnam vets had to go through. Most of the intelligent people that have a problem with it, have a problem with the word being used casually, as it can trigger these memories."
I feel like this needs to be reiterated. I saw this on Twitter a couple of days ago and read some of the blog entries on the subject. While I'm not sure about people permeating some kind of "rape culture" with humor (this is something I'm still mulling over), I think the fact that something as simple as a joke can trigger a PTSD-style flashback in someone is a point that needs to be made. One of the blogs was written by a gamer who also happened to be a rape victim, and she talked about how seeing a prisoner insinuate they were being raped on the Purgatory in Mass Effect 2 caused a trigger. If something that slight can cause this, then I think at least discussing the fact it can happen and that we should be a little more mindful of it is a good thing.
Rape isn't funny - but neither is a lot of comedy.
War isn't funny. In fact, it's... one of the worst things ever. WWII is especially unfunny, given that.... you know.... 60.... million.... people kinda died during that war.
Yet, Catch-22 is one of the best, funniest books I have ever read. I have read up on the Horrors of Warfare (Antony Beevor's books are something everyone should read by the way), but Catch-22 is still funny.
WW1 Trench Warfare wasn't funny at all. Having to obey ludicrous commands from the higher-ups, having to endure gas-attacks, diseases, mud and bullets and barbed wire and the constant shelling isn't funny. Yet did people really object to Black Adder's WW1 episodes? No, not really.
Rape isn't funny. The PA comic doesn't endorse Rape and doesn't say "hey it's cool to rape people!" - the joke was about how in many MMOs and other games, the immersion can be broken with the idea that saving X amount of people completes the quest, instead of all of them. It was a satire of gaming mechanics, not rape.
Could PA have been more tasteful? Sure. Was the use of rape in the comic unwise? Given the anger felt by many, absolutely. Could they have found a better way to communicate the joke without including Rape? Yes.
Are they monsters who are endorsing/trivializing rape, and who have no sympathy for rape victims? Surely not.
Anti-rape activists are good people, who serve a good purpose. Rape is still a horrific crime which still exists in the modern world, and needs to be fought. The Good anti-rape activists campaign to have rape laws revised, to enhance woman's rights over the world, to set up women's shelters and give resources to rape victims. The good anti-rape-activists work damn hard and make a difference.
But that's HARD WORK! Field-workers and hard-working liberals might have time for that, but Arm-chair liberals don't! We'd have to leave our arm-chairs! So let's make a fuss about one measly web-comic and pretend we're fighting the good fight.
From our arm-chairs.
EDIT: We all know that the rights of women, around the world and at home (no matter where you live) need to be protected and enhanced. I work in the field of biological sciences. While that field is more friendly to women, I still see sexism rear its ugly head from time to time (mostly from the older members of the staff). Rape is still a major crime, and a lot of it isn't reported. There are some countries in which rape is almost sanctioned by the authorities. I stress the importance of fighting for women's rights at home and abroad, and there are many ways we can do that - donate to a woman's shelter. Campaign for a change in rape laws to make punishment more severe. Introduce anti-harassment measures in your workplace or school. Educate people from a young age about the rights of women and try to get men to realize that women are.... well, HUMANS just like them, but also get women to stand up for their own rights. It's a hard battle, a battle that takes up a lot of time and effort and money, and as a society we can do more to encourage the dignity and respect of women.
But making a fuss over one comic isn't the way to do it.
I didn't find the comic funny. I was mildly disturbed by it. I can imagine how a rape sufferer would be incensed by it, appalled by it. And they have the right, every right, to feel angry and to boycott PAX.
But everything is offensive to someone. Intentions matter. PA could have easily avoided this whole mess and they should have been wiser about this. But to all those people who think they are fighting the good fight by spitting righteous indignation at your computer monitor..... you're not. PA aren't endorsers of rape. The comic wasn't about rape at all. And intentions do matter.
I don't know. Maybe I haven't suffered from rape, and I'm not an web-comic artist either, so I don't have a right to wade into this mess. But I'd wager that most of you haven't fought in a war either. So if a veteran wants to ban Catch-22 for being disrespectful to the military he served (and Catch-22 is fairly disrespectful to the military order), and if a veteran feels incensed, absolutely enraged by the portrayal of a soldier in a film like, say, "Barbarians at the Gates", does he have a point? Maybe so. Maybe so.
But I would wager that there is something you find funny, that somewhere, at sometime, has caused heart-break to someone else. Rape isn't funny. I don't like rape jokes. I don't like slapstick humour or jokes that involve people falling down (so you can imagine how Australia/America's Funniest Home Videos doesn't appeal to me). But neither do I say that anyone who makes a tasteless joke is in favour of what the joke is about. As stupid as AFHV is, I don't think the host endorses babies falling over or old folk tumbling down stairs or people falling backwards into tables. I don't think the watchers of AFHV would actually laugh in real life if someone did fall down and hurt their back.
The PA comic was tasteless. I agree. But Jerry and Mike aren't monsters, and by screaming abuse at them, you don't open up dialogue.
The way Gabe keeps responding to this "controversy" is pretty tasteless. It would've been better to just ignore it and move on, or put out a quick disclaimer and drop it. Now he is directly and actively making fun of rape victims.
@ Raishin of course I know what "Rape Culture" is. I saw them live once. Couple new songs but mostly covers.
I'm sure a lot of it is because he's fed up with the mail and the complaints for what was originally an off-hand and innocent joke, but he's starting to make it hard to not think he's being a dick--especially when you take into consideration his reaction to drugs and drug culture due to his past, his anxiety problems, and his vociferous defense of his religion.
" @Wrighteous86 said:That's unfortunate, but we shouldn't have to censor ourselves just because some people have had traumatic experiences. Rape is no different from any other form of violence in that aspect. There are probably people who cannot stand watching WW2 movies because of traumatic experiences they had, but that doesn't mean that the movies are perpetuating "war culture". I acknowledge that it sucks that these people are "triggered" by such things, but beyond that I think the complaining is unnecessary. "Being a little more considerate / Being a little more mindful / Watching what we say" etc. are just different ways of saying the same thing: You don't want people to freely speak their minds. If PA starts becoming hesitant about referencing rape, then they will be asked to be more mindful about violence in general, and about racism, and about classism, and about foul language."However, rape, like any number of traumatic events, is one of those things that can be triggered in a victim's mind, forcing them to go through vivid and painful flashbacks, a lot like Vietnam vets had to go through. Most of the intelligent people that have a problem with it, have a problem with the word being used casually, as it can trigger these memories."I feel like this needs to be reiterated. I saw this on Twitter a couple of days ago and read some of the blog entries on the subject. While I'm not sure about people permeating some kind of "rape culture" with humor (this is something I'm still mulling over), I think the fact that something as simple as a joke can trigger a PTSD-style flashback in someone is a point that needs to be made. One of the blogs was written by a gamer who also happened to be a rape victim, and she talked about how seeing a prisoner insinuate they were being raped on the Purgatory in Mass Effect 2 caused a trigger. If something that slight can cause this, then I think at least discussing the fact it can happen and that we should be a little more mindful of it is a good thing. "
I also wish people would stop saying, "rape isn't funny!"; as if the strip was just the word "RAPE" written in big, bold, black font with Gabe and Tycho laughing their asses off. If your point is that rape has no place in humor in any capacity, then I personally find that idea incredibly offensive. Nothing should be off-limits for comedy. It all depends on how it's done and the intent behind it.
And honestly, even if you are just a giant asshole who wants to hurt the feelings of rape survivors, then I still say you should be allowed to. Being an asshole is everyone's right.
" I also wish people would stop saying, "rape isn't funny!"; as if the strip was just the word "RAPE" written in big, bold, black font with Gabe and Tycho laughing their asses off. If your point is that rape has no place in humor in any capacity, then I personally find that idea incredibly offensive. Nothing should be off-limits for comedy. It all depends on how it's done and the intent behind it. And honestly, even if you are just a giant asshole who wants to hurt the feelings of rape survivors, then I still say you should be allowed to. Being an asshole is everyone's right. "This. I hate when people's definition of freedom of speech is "Freedom of speech unless I disagree".
I think they have to do that as well, but I also think that the people who were offended have the right to say that they're offended. Just because someone says they think someone isn't funny, doesn't mean that they're saying that that topic isn't funny, that that person is never funny or should never say another joke, they're just saying they think what was done wans't funny or tasteless. Nobody here seems to be trying to take they're freedom of speech. What seems to have happened is the equivalent of a moment silence at the dinner table that has been blown out of proportion." @Meowshi said:
" I also wish people would stop saying, "rape isn't funny!"; as if the strip was just the word "RAPE" written in big, bold, black font with Gabe and Tycho laughing their asses off. If your point is that rape has no place in humor in any capacity, then I personally find that idea incredibly offensive. Nothing should be off-limits for comedy. It all depends on how it's done and the intent behind it. And honestly, even if you are just a giant asshole who wants to hurt the feelings of rape survivors, then I still say you should be allowed to. Being an asshole is everyone's right. "This. I hate when people's definition of freedom of speech is "Freedom of speech unless I disagree". "
Saying that someone is taking away freedom of speech because they are speaking out about someone saying something that they feel is wrong is a complete strawman. In fact, I don't think they're taking away those opposed to PA's freedom of speech just because you speak out against them, don't put that stuff on that group either.
Freedom of speech is the freedom for me to point out that you said something I didn't like just like it is for you to say something I don't like. BOTH sides need to and should be able to be be respected, and neither is taking away either's freedom by speaking their opinions.
EDIT: of course, I do not know what kind of emails they got
Here's a pretty good breakdown of everything that's happened so far for anyone not up to speed. Fucking debacle indeed. Goddamn I want me one of those shirts.
http://debacle.tumblr.com/
20 years ago, George Carlin told me rape can be funny.
It's the belittlement of those who legitimately found the comic to be in poor taste that is disgusting. 'Rape survivors' being insulted and accused of lying by PA fans who have no concept of why it might be offensive to them. Yes, comedy can extend to pretty much what you want as long as you have the right context to it, but when someone is offended by that don't go out and attack them for their opinions. This whole thing shows a massive dismissal of people hurt by it, you don't need to be sorry for a joke like that but at least don't be a dick towards the reaction.
If you found the original comic in poor taste, then either a.) you don't understand the whole basis of the joke (being about how MMO player character "heroes" don't care about rescuing all of the prisoners and slaves... just enough to fulfill the quest), or b.) you're very sensitive to fairly typical Penny Arcade humor (overblowing something simple [a slave or prisoner NPC from an MMORPG] into something ridiculous [they are "raped to sleep" by...] using a funny word ["...dickwolves..."] and even funnier and more ridiculous verbal descriptions of things [...which are wolves "whose every limb is an erect phallus."]).
In either case, what the hell are you doing reading Penny Arcade.
Mike's responses were definitely juvenile, but hey, the man makes juvenile humor for a living. He tries to be funny whenever he can, and using humor as a defense mechanism against ridiculous claims of being a rape apologist and so forth seems perfectly in line with the artist and humorist I know and appreciate.
I didn't find the second follow-up comic to be as funny, but it made sense at the time that it was meant to show these accusers how ridiculous some of their claims were.
The shirt was sort of inflammatory, but when they were discussing it live at PAX, I wasn't thinking "fuck yeah, now I can wear a shirt that promotes rape!" or even "finally, a shirt that I can wear that will knock those feminists down a peg or two." I just think "dickwolves" is one of the funniest words I've heard in awhile, s'all.
I just skimmed over the 40+ page thread on the Penny Arcade forums about this, and it's ridiculous that this issue is even at the level of heated debate about ethics and politics that it is. Just say "dickwolves" to yourself! It's funny!
I challenge you to not laugh at what was probably the funniest non-Johnny V-related thing at Pax Prime 2010:
Tycho has posted a breakdown of his thoughts. Sounds like there has been some escalation into threats against his family. I always thought the offending strip was a clever commentary on the vacuous nature of computer game heroism as he pointed out. Still other people will interpret any media that they digest in their own way. Is it as the creator intended? If not is the creator of the art then responsible?
I remember a few years ago, some people railed against Fight Club as a pro-violence movie. David Fincher (the director) always said it was intended to be the opposite. Who is right?
" It's the belittlement of those who legitimately found the comic to be in poor taste that is disgusting. 'Rape survivors' being insulted and accused of lying by PA fans who have no concept of why it might be offensive to them. Yes, comedy can extend to pretty much what you want as long as you have the right context to it, but when someone is offended by that don't go out and attack them for their opinions. This whole thing shows a massive dismissal of people hurt by it, you don't need to be sorry for a joke like that but at least don't be a dick towards the reaction. "If those same people are accusing you of supporting rape, then you have every right to be a dick towards them. If they had just been like, "This comic offends me, I don't think I'm going to read", then fine. But they were more like, "You are the reason girls don't report their rapes! You are perpetuating a culture in which rape is acceptable. You are a rape apologist!" Frankly, they can all whine about their hurt feelings all they want. I'd be happy if PA never apologizes.
" While I think it's silly that people got that upset over it, Gabe's right and they did the right thing. At least, they did the right thing to keep PAX as intended. That said, this will have all been forgotten in a week so everyone should just carry on. "Pax East is going to blow chunks. Search your heart, you know it to be true.
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