I also finally came along to read the review in full, in no ways I disagree with any of his points, yet I would still consider the game 9/10 or 10/10. Or in other words, his opinion didn't change mine. I even kinda feel like that I want the game even more now.
@wetracoon said:
@dray2k: Yes, the reality is we are working with axioms (game design principles themselves are axioms) because without some base of what we could call "objectively good design" the whole thing would be a mess. Which is partially what I'm getting at here. Denying that we can't objectively assess some aspect of any game is the equivalent of tossing out game design itself. Is there emotionally driven aspects of game assessment? Sure there are. But like a car, it has to run first before you can even get to the point of talking about hot it makes you "feel".
I think you have a point with the car analogy if you ignore the fact that games and cars are almost entirely unrelated to each other, furthermore the common mistake is that people create bias (this can go pro or contra against the object, you can't always be sure that a positive review is reflected positively by the one reading the review) automatically. Furthermore, feeling is a process and cannot be seen as an absolute, doing otherwise is nonsense.
We seem to write past each other. What you wrote is Objectivity butwhat you mean however is Subjective Truthfulness, which is not the same thing. In no way I've stated nor implied that we cannot assess some aspects of any game with truthfulness, but this question is up to the reviewer to fill and is not our job. We can of course critique a review for any reason, but thats another entirely subjective thing. I know I'm arguing semanticism here in a way, but people cannot want objectivity when subjectivity can also be hold as truth and to the same degree also.
You can always argue that a review is true to itself but you cannot argue that a review is objective, since that goes againgst the core principles of art (regarding the nature of the writing, not the game - the game does not care how you see it but the writing does since the writing exists to formulate the thoughts of the reviewer regarding the game).
That you wrote "some aspect" is enough for me to prove this point since objectivism, just like subjectivism, is a extreme. This means you can't both be objective and subjective since these are opposing schools of thought (though, the question if you can have both may be a different but even more important topic). If you start making it into "degrees of objectiveness" then you become automatically subjective and thus flawed to the core ideas about an absolute objective truth. If you want to argue however that you can have both link objectiveness and subjectiveness together to work in harmony, be my guest. I think thats a very important discussion to have for game costumers and reviewers alike.
"I think therefore I am" still holds true. A absolute statement, but still subjective in its entirety.
Its all about exchange of ideas for me. If people want to start doing these subjectiveness vs. objectiveness internet wars as a penis measurement contest I usually bail out. If you want to know a bit more about the topic, I can link to to some books on Amazon to read you up about so you understand where I'm coming from exactly. Then we can start having a debate about it. But I can also give you examples of the german school of game reviewing, that do indeed provide "objectiveness sheets" in their reviews when it comes to technical aspects of a game (example).
Note that the first comment there is a person angry that the table may be wrong. The question whether or not people think objectiveness is or isn't truthfully percieved by the subjective nature of the human mind is another question.
@geraltitude: First and foremost, sorry that I called the stuff you wrote as "silly" (it isn't silly, I felt like your table was counterproductive to the discussion about the schools of subjectivity/truthfulness and objectivity/truthfulness). It was not my intention to degrade your argument before doing my initial response. That was extremly short sighted from me and I sincerly appologize.
Anyway...
A obvious problem with it is that you can't discuss these things without trying to tackle the root causes first (i.e. talking about the philosophical systems that define subjectivity or in this case, the question of objectivity).
Otherwise we would begin to talk past each other. I obviously see this "internet fight" from a different angle than most. I don't care about peoples bias about truth perception. All I want is to people to move further in this. A lot of people do not, thats why we have silly things like fanboywars for decades. As some smart duder jokingly wrote here "War never changes", unfortunately holds to be true.
Anyway, to your core points. I necissarily do not disagree with you. The point of any review is ultimately costumer advocacy and simple confirmation bias confirmation. Confirmation bias confirmation is by the way partially the reason why people only look at the score instead of the review when they like a certain produced and are biased to it.
People wanting "fact" sheets for a car cannot answer the question of "but how does it drive?". The response would be "according to the data, it should drive good." In no way I would be statisfied with such a response. Either way, reviewers are always free to justify the score in a review - or not. In the topic of Jim Sterling I can conclude that he does phrase his opinions concisely. In no way I felt that his wording was unreasonable or unjustified to the game itself.
I don't know if this response will statisfy because I can't come to a propper conclusion myself but there you go!
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