The Wrestling Discussion Thread

@bigsocrates: WWE has one only thing that Punk craves: A guaranteed platform. He's burned all the bridges elsewhere. Yes, he could go back to just making convention appearances and possibly start a podcast, but that would kill him inside like it did before and he has zero patience to boot. This is the dude who unironically calls himself the best in the world as a good guy move. WWE knows that if he starts shit or stops making them money, they can just drop him like the sack of shit he is.

The reason I'd say they're trying to court controversy is that literally the first storyline they're putting him in is a worked shoot with Seth Rollins. Gonna laugh out loud if they try to make Seth the heel in this one.

@cornfed40: lol wat

@daiphyer: That's kinda their career in a nutshell. Edge being treated as the bigger star, while Christian just does everything so much better.

And since we're speaking of pieces of shit, apparently Ric Flair cut a dark promo inviting girls "aged 18-28, no boyfriends" to his hotel room. What a cool guy Tony Khan is for only hiring non-problematic people.

@retris: Of course Punk wants to be in WWE and has reason to try and stay there, I just don't think he's THAT desperate because he knows he'll be fine if he's not, and more importantly I think with his low impulse control it doesn't really matter that much what the incentives are. On the other hand I think WWE's more sanitized and corporate environment might stop anything from setting him off so maybe he'll be fine.

I don't think a worked shoot is "courting controversy." "These guys don't like each other, now they're going to fight" is the most basic wrestling storyline and Seth even said he'd work with Punk if it was what was best for business. I think courting controversy is more like doing a Jeff Hardy alcohol angle, which of course WWE has also done!

Edge literally is the bigger star than Christian. He's significantly taller. And that difference explains a lot of why Edge got pushed much harder in WWE.

The Ric Flair thing is just disgusting. I've seen people defending it as "well that's his old gimmick, you hire Flair as a nostalgia act so he's going to play the old hits."

It was still very gross but less gross when he was 30 and doing it than now that he's in his 70s and looks like warmed over death. And it's also much less acceptable now than it was in 1989, even though it should not have been acceptable then either. Also that was before the stories of Flair were so widely known. And of course it's not just schtick for him. He's always lived his gimmick.

Who is it for? Who actually wants to see old man Flair specifically hitting on women young enough to be his granddaughter? There are people who will tolerate or defend it but how, exactly, does it draw any money? And if it's not drawing money then what's the point of doing something super gross and obnoxious? It won't make TV but Khan needs to tell Flair to cut that out and never do it again. If he wants to make vague references to Space Mountain that's one thing (Still gross but not as offensive) but this was over the line.

Of course hiring Flair was over the line to begin with, and, again, what money is it drawing?

I'm honestly so fed up with NJPW

I'll watch Wrestle Kingdom, but I've got zero expectations going in

Who is the wrestler of the year from 2023 and why is it the Mad King?

@sombre: There are a few times I've had tears in my eyes because of wrestling, and like half of those have been because of Eddie.

Edit: Also, I find it funny how the social medias keep on crying about how AEW's problem is too many tournaments, and the Continental Classic proves good tournaments are one of AEW's biggest strengths.

I could also argue Ospreay

Man, AEW keeps on proving that sometimes the most obvious answer is not the best answer. Dumbest shit ever. Having Adam Cole revealed as the Devil is just fucking dumb, it doesn't make sense in any storyline way as he's had many opportunities to screw MJF over and win the title and he decides to just fuck around for months. And fuck around they did, a storyline nobody really seemed to find entertaining ends in a way where AEW just wasted our time for months and months. But hey, at least Joe is champ now, that's something.

@retris: In AEW's defense the whole thing was probably greatly impacted by the injury and would have played out differently without it. They spun their wheels for awhile looking for another answer but couldn't find one so they pulled the trigger on the original, now stale and even stupider, and yes it was a wet fart but what would have been better? I've played it out in my mind and basically anything would have been supremely disappointing. They booked themselves into a corner, Cole got injured, they kept digging.

The only thing that would have worked would have been actual Vince McMahon saying "It's me Maxwell, it was me all along" and only because it would have been incredibly shocking because it is, of course, impossible.

To AEW's detriment the whole devil idea was stupid to begin with. These things never work out and even in the original version it went on way too long and there was no big reveal that was going to work. Cole was obvious and anyone else either lacked star power or would have no reason to have done it. As soon as it started I asked "who under the mask would make this a good payoff" and the answer was nobody. So they made this go nowhere storyline a focus of their show for literal months. They should have cut bait way earlier and just gone to something else. Lord knows they d that enough already. Maybe they could have done something with Swerve because at least he's a hot heel people would have wanted to see against MJF, but he was off doing other stuff anyway. Just a dumb plan from the beginning.

I thought WK18 would get me back into New Japan, but the House of Torture stuff at the end left such a sour taste that I'm done with New Japan. Just done

@sombre: Them bringing in Matt Riddle, the rapist, was kind of the last straw for me.

Sadly, the alternative is NOAH who had a completely broken down Ibushi main-event and end up in the hospital because of it.

I don't think I've ever seen an image encapsulate sadness so well as this one. I genuinely wonder who Kaito Kiyomiya pissed off, because going from the (future) company ace to the dude who repeatedly gets humiliated wherever he goes in less than a year is the steepest downfall I've seen in wrestling.

I don't know much about NOAH or Kiyomiya, but I thought Dick chopping people in the dick was best thing House of Torture ever did. Not that it's a high bar.

Huh... Okada's leaving New Japan. I mean, I also stopped caring when they brought in Riddle, but that's kind of the last of the star power they had. Tanahasi's too old. Naito's on the verge of being too old. Sanada's entire gimmick is that has no star power. Evil's a complete dork. Time to hot shot some young guys, I guess.

@brian_: Okada has one show back in TNA and realizes he wants out of NJPW. Coincidence? I think not. NJPW needs to capitalize on my boy Shingo sooner rather than later. While I don't want him to leave LIJ, he's always been a great unit leader and the units in NJPW have needed a big shakeup for years.

Hard to Kill and Impact were both fucking phenomenal and Alexander had crazy MOTYCs in both.

I'm actually excited about New Japan?

With Okada going, Tana being too old to be ME, and Naito coming to the end of his ME run, it means they're going to have to completely turn things around.

For the first time in a while, the booking could be interesting. Tsuji/Uemura/Shooter coming up the ranks, then people like ZSJ/GOK could be actually pushed

Just err...no ELP please

We all knew Vince McMahon was an absolute scumbag but I think he's the worst person ever associated with wrestling who isn't an actual murderer or Grizzly Smith, and it looks like he may be able to compete with the likes of Smith or even Snuka.

I hope this is the thing that finally puts him down for good, but he sold the company to people willing to do business with him and keep him in power, if not actively help in burying his crimes. I don't trust anyone there to do anything right.

@brian_: I hope and think that this will knock him out of power, finally, since they just inked a deal with Netflix and nobody wants THIS kind of attention (especially with how salacious it all is.) We'll see over the coming week.

As for the people who helped him cover it up? I doubt it. There's an implication that HHH may have known in the lawsuit, and I seriously doubt they will get rid of him considering how hot the business is right now. Nick Khan isn't going anywhere. Johnny Ace is already gone.

My guess is that what will happen is that McMahon will be jettisoned and then there will be a settlement and we'll never know for sure who the anonymous execs are. That might even have been part of the strategy in not naming them directly, to give a strong reason for everyone to want to settle quietly.

I think Brock won't be back immediately but probably can return in a couple years once the heat has died down if he wants to.

@brian_: what's happened?

@sombre: Vince is getting sued again for sexual abuse.

Those texts. Jesus H

Man, mainstream American wrestling is in such a bad spot. First you've got WWE, completely bungled their messaging on their stance on sex trafficking. Then you've got AEW, who still keeps Ric Flair's face and ass on their shows.

Heck, the wrestling part in either company is nothing to write home about either. AEW keeps on treading water and just doesn't even attempt to have excitement on their shows. Collision had 7 matches: 6 squash matches and one overbooked, Russoriffic cage match, and their main-event stable is supposed to be the Undisputed Kingdom which is somehow less over than the Firm was. WWE on the other hand is just the overproduced, but low budget looking show it's been for a while now, with the mid booking you can expect.

First Rossy gone from Stardom, now Scott D'Amore from TNA. Wrestling fans are not allowed to have nice things.

Just unbelievable cowardice and scumbaggery. Johnny Ace trying to save his own ass by admitting to the cover up of Ashely's rape. Not in the years after it happened. Not after her death. Only when his ass is on the line. That company needs to be purged of absolutely everyone.

@brian_: Dude's nickname was mr. Casting Couch. I genuinely wonder how he thinks he'll weasel out of this stuff with the evidence stacked against him.

@retris: His current defense seems to be "Vince made me do it", as if prioritizing keeping your job over not aiding, abetting, and participating in rape somehow makes you a victim.

Vince McMahon always seemed like he had a dirty mind with those skits he did like Kiss My Butt club where he literally pulled his pants down and exposed his butt. Can't look at WWE the same ever again and it's ruined WrestleMania season.

Got to say, watching two guys, who probably shouldn't be wrestling due to their severe head injuries, compete on who can strike the other one in the head harder is mostly just uncomfortable to me.

Also, Kaito Kiyomiya keeps being the most unlucky wrestler alive.

This Helwani interview of CM Punk is...insane.

I can't imagine WWE is going to be happy about him stirring up this hornet's nest right before Wrestlemania.

I guess Punk is always going to be Punk but he has to know the smart and professional thing to do here is just focus on WWE and talk about Drew and Seth, where he could actually draw some money, instead of dredging up the situation he just got away from and kicking up gossip and tribalism.

But, again, Punk is just going to be Punk.

He talks about being all about business and making money but I don't see how this makes anyone money. Except Helwani.

Punk is such a baby

"AEW IS SO BAD THEY DIDN'T PAY FOR MY SURGERY BUT WWE DID THEY'RE THE BEST"

remember when you almost died because WWE forced you to wrestle with a staph infection?

Also its really telling how he's all "Guaranteed money ruined wrestling more than anything else" after he outright said he's only wrestling now for money

Alright for him but not for anyone else

@kainhighwind09: Pretending that WWE is better for workers than AEW is just silly. Which company cut people ruthlessly during the pandemic? WWE is good for a few things like rehab and medical stuff, but I'm pretty sure AEW also covers medical for anyone that it is not in active litigation with.

And saying that guaranteed contracts ruined wrestling is incredibly insulting your colleagues, including both friends in AEW AND everyone in WWE. It's directly insulting the work done by people in the company you currently work for.

I don't understand why Punk gets such a babyface reaction. He always comes off as a massive heel. Completely entitled, self-centered, thoughtless, and short tempered. He admitted to choking Jack Perry over some childish comments. And the stuff he's admitted to in the past regarding female wrestlers...

@bigsocrates: It's not even just admitting regarding female wrestlers. His old blog was full of incriminating stuff, ranging from him talking about how cool he was for blowing up at a cop for not knowing him (while he was an indie wrestler) to just catty shit talking. Granted, he was younger back then but it was still immature shit for an adult. Then you've got stuff like him just stopping a match to call yell at a stripper about how she's a whore. CHIKARA's blacklist was literally named the CM Punk list and he kept a grudge with Orange Cassidy for years because of it... fucking Orange Cassidy of all people, a person who has the reputation of being one of the nicest people backstage. It needs to be remembered that from his time in the indies, ROH / Gabe is the only place he didn't burn bridges with.

It's wild how Punk stans will just come up with craziest excuses to take his side. Man admits to assaulting a fellow co-worker and they're trying to say he's justified. He's just the Elon Musk of wrestling. Every sad meltdown is a masteful gambit to his fans.

It's funny how Punk and Hangman are literally just that Mad Men meme of "I hate you" and "I don't think about you at all". Literally the only thing Hangman did was cut a mild line about CM Punk being a hypocrite and he still holds a grudge. Funnily enough, this interview he proved multiple times that Hangman was right and everything Punk tends to say to make himself look like a good guy is just performative. Especially the whole talking about workers rights and then pivoting to "fuck guaranteed money, fuck your rights".

@retris: Yeah he has a long history of being an asshole, but intentionally injuring a female trainee who trusted you is, in my book, way worse than just trying to big-time a cop, dumb as that is. He's just never seemed like a babyface to me in any way. Yeah he can do promos where he comes off as sincere, and that's a skill, but even when he's seeming sincere he seems like a sincere person I would avoid in any situation because he radiates self-centeredness.

He's also full of contradictions. On the one hand he claims to be a professional. On the other hand he freely admits to choking a co-worker. Big professional energy there. BPE.

I think Punk hates Hangman because he thinks Hangman is beneath him but had the temerity to treat him like an equal and call him out. Of course they were in a program at the time so... but Punk is all about getting respect, and only giving it to those he considers to be on his level (very few such people exist.) I just really don't like the guy. And not in a heel heat way but in a "he seems like a cancer and I hate watching him" way. He's not the only one who screwed up in the AEW situation and there's lots of blame to go around, but he's the one who turned it physical and publicly toxic (twice) and when you encounter huge problems everywhere to go maybe you're the one bringing the problems with you.

@bigsocrates: To make it clear. I don't think him big timing a cop is anywhere as bad as the female trainee case (or the cases of him being proud about abusing girlfriends and female fans [read: the carnie term for them], while claiming to be a feminist). It's just that he has a long history of just constant horribleness that he gets a pass on because him being an asshole backstage translates well to him playing an asshole on camera.

Like, I get that most of the CM Punk appeal has always been that when you give him a mic there's this sense of danger to his promos, that he might blow up at any time, that makes him really appealing. But it's never been that appealing to me, especially after realizing his MO. I don't find a dude bringing up smark talking points about his opponent to be entertaining. Heck, I watched that promo him and Drew had last week and Drew fucking smoked him and his retort being bringing up Vince just made Punk look bad in my opinion. That's the thing, when against a promo guy like Drew or Eddie or heck, even Hangman, he just ends up looking desperate, and not in a good way.

If there was less CM Punk until there was none, wrestling would improve ten-fold

So, as (I) predicted, CM Punk choked out Jack Perry in the same way he choked out his opponents in UFC. This begs the question... does Punk actually believe he should've won those MMA fights? That the ref should've stopped the match? Because holy shit. This was Hogan level of fibbing.

@retris: Punk likes to call himself the best in the world. Nobody is as big a mark for CM Punk as CM Punk is. His version of events also had Joe asking him verbally to lay off. That's not what happened. Or at least not all of it.

That being said...Tony Khan is clearly on tilt and needs someone to tell him to take some deep breaths and stop engaging. It's embarrassing that they aired that and it accomplishes nothing positive for anyone. Except for podcasters and commentators on wrestling who are doing huge numbers off Wrestlemania and get to continue the party for a bit, I guess.

@bigsocrates: Yuuup. This and Ospreay cutting a promo on Triple H sure as shit makes AEW look second rate. This is DX invading WCW on a "tank" level of sad, and AEW doesn't have the luxury of spending literal decades of hyping it up to make it look better.

WWE almost had a disaster this weekend with Punk trying to make the weekend about himself, but they managed to avoid it by just powering through and ignoring Punk. AEW on the other hand tried to lean into it and it just made them look bad. We'll see if it pops a rating, but I don't think that rating's gonna last if it did as none of the rest of the show really gave anyone a reason to stay. I get that the Bucks are doing an even more meta heel gimmick now that their meta heel gimmick of "wrestling in a way to piss off wrestling purists" has gotten old, and I did find the whole thing (and the way it parodied Tony Khan) funny... but sheesh, nobody's talking about the segment and everyone is talking about the footage. Heck, they're not really even talking about the footage, they're just talking about the airing of it. Someone said that everyone had made their mind about the footage already and showing it didn't change anyone's mind and that's bang on the money: you can see Punk instigate the fight, you can see him fail to choke Perry, you can see him lunging at Khan but getting pulled away... but the people on Punk's (or anti-AEW) side still pretend that's not how the footage went. Facts or proof do not work on the internet.

I just can't get over how stupid this shit is and how it's distracting from the show.

@retris: It's very strange behavior. Not just because it makes AEW look second rate but because it's so passive aggressive. During the Monday Night Wars (When both sides pulled this crap) at least the conflict was more direct and on an even playing field. This just feels whiny. And it's complaining about individuals rather then the other company. Taking shots at HHH is fair enough because he's an executive and he kind of took a shot at Ospreay, which was dumb in its own right, but going after Punk so long after he left the company just feels bitter and juvenile. Bitter and juvenile is Punk's brand, not AEW's.

This footage was close enough to the story already out there that it only changes people's minds on the details, and the details are not what matter. Whether or not Punk choked Perry successfully doesn't matter. If he'd been extremely violent or kept coming back for more after the fight broke up it might change things, but as it was we're just lookinb at details.

Tony Khan is a big nerd, which is fine (so am I) and he thinks these details matter when for most people they don't. What he needs is some normal people around him who can give him perspective. On everything from booking to this. And he doesn't have that. Or if he does, he won't listen. In his own way he's like Vince. Not in being an evil bastard (that we know of; but even Punk said he's a nice guy) but in trying to impose his own personal vision on everything and not taking enough feedback. Everyone seemed to think this was a bad idea, but he went through with it anyway, and, as I said, he's on tilt and he's going to keep making bad decisions until someone or something pulls him out of it.

Just focus on Ospreay, Joe, and Swerve, the parts of your show that are really cooking right now, figure out a way to use Mercedes to inject some life into the women's division (NOT what you're doing now) and let Punk be someone else's headache. Sooner or later he'll bite HHH and then that will be WWE's mess. Don't make it yours.

If Tony Khan is supposed to be a huge wrestling mark, you'd think he would know that all this stuff of taking shots and meta 4-wall shit never ever works for anyone. At this point I half expect Billy Gunn to come out in a Voodoo Kin Mafia shirt or the Don Callis Family to be renamed as the Hard Hitter Household or some crap. Just focus on yourself and put on a good wrestling show. Cause they haven't really been doing much of that lately.

@brian_: "SEE YOU AT THE ALAMO, LEVESQUE!"

All these post about CM Punk is the reason he is still relevant. The man knows he has haters and worshipers, and he plays both sides for all it's worth. I was never a CM Punk fan and thought he was overrated. I always thought the guy looked like a drunk who desperately needed rehab. But like the saying goes, there is no such thing as bad publicity. In the world of entertainment, being both loved and hated is exactly where you want to be, because either way, you're being talked about, and you're not becoming irrelevant. This also the reason the Paul brothers have been thriving for decades now. They also know how to play on public emotions and cash in from it.

@av_gamer:But wouldn't that also apply to the Young Bucks and AEW since that's what we're talking about? The discussion is more about AEW than Punk.

@brian_: Speaking of. I genuinely don't think think this was Tony's idea. It's not really his style. His style is more of introducing new wrestlers and belts and then doing nothing with them, and filling shows with main-eventer vs. jobber matches that go over 10 minutes and really do nothing but waste time. On the other hand you've got the Young Bucks who've literally made their entire careers on the back of doing stuff like this, so I wouldn't really put it past being their idea.

Also, holy shit Jack Perry is fucking over. This genuinely seems to be working for him? Wild. People (including myself) were expecting the crowd to absolutely destroy him, but instead he had the Chicago live crowd eating out of his hand. He was one of the most over acts of the night. If AEW can manage to capitalize in the same way and get the non-smark heavy crowds into it this could actually work. I can't overstate how genuinely surprising Windy City was and this was the biggest surprise.

NJPW Strong constantly having better shows than regular NJPW is starting to make NJPW look even worse than they look on their own merits.

Taking the belt off Naito and putting it on fucking Jon Moxley of all people. What the hell is Gedo thinking?

@sombre: I'm guessing the reasons are threefold:

1) There's been rumors for a long while that Naito is working hurt. Might be more hurt than people thought.

2) Jon Moxley fucking rules.

3) This gives them a way to get the title on the Semen Cannon without having to do yet another LIJ internal implosion.

@retris: IDK, this screamed TONY'S IDEA to me. I know kayfabe is dead, and everyone knows these guys are all buddy buddy behind the scenes and talking about video games and all that other nonsense. But i dont know that even in the mind of the Bucks any wrestler would be super happy about footage that just blasts "this shizz is fake as hell dog." Joe pulling a guy away from the dude hes about to wrestle for a title? Hook, who JUST had a match with Perry, holding Jack against the wall trying to calm him down while other people got Punk under control? Absolute zero sum game move on AEW's part, caring more about Tony's looking and coming off as a punk b*&^% than they care about the business

Just finished watching Wrestlemania. Had a chuckle at all the cultural appropriation. Why do they get a free pass?

Also it’s very sad that Dominik is the only heel with serious heat.