The assertion that the Mass Effect series was ever art is laughable.

my hawaiian femshep saved the galaxy after ME1 and then she retired. I don't know what all this fuzz is about :D

@Milkman said:

What movies have changed their ending weeks after release?

Does it matter? Can you quantify at which point it is acceptable to change the ending? They aren't going to wait for 20 years to release a re-master of ME3 with separate endings if people want DLC which can be bought in the near future for endings they want to see now.

Horrible PR doubletalk. Also that "CRITICS LIKE IT A LOT!"-save was pretty pathetic.

@Taka said:

@RC said:

@Taka said:

The Internet just won ... now this will be used for eternity as precedence by everyone unhappy with any future ending in a video game

This is a sad day for artistic freedom ...

Precedence describes a first case that fits a scenario. So this can't be a precedence, because there already was a precedence, got it?

Not in a big game like this and not with so much at stake, got it?

A precedence is a precedence is a precedence. It doesn't matter how big you _feel_ a game is.

Besides, this discussion is derailing itself anyway, because BioWare has absolutely NOT said WHAT exactly they are going to do. All they really said, was that they were gonna do SOMETHING. It's just too soon to argue on the basis that they will "totally change everything". It could easily be some minor addition like a text (the game even already starts with a text, remember?).

We should all just wait and see what is actually going to happen, before we _speculate_ even more.

The short time (april!) even suggests that they can't do much. It's next to impossible to do major changes in only a few weeks, especially if they were to bring in the voice actors again for additional scenes and so on...

I get the feeling like this is similar to the outcry when Arthur Conan Doyle killed off Sherlock Holmes. He didn't want to write the character anymore and he gave him a pretty awesomely poetic death, but fans hated the fact that this beloved fictional character was "dead" and so kept complaining until he retconned the death out of existence.

While creative works are certainly personalized by the consumers, I can't help but feel that it is wrong for the audience to demand things from the creator. Art is personal expression. What comes out of it might not always be good, or might not find a wide audience, but true art should always come from a personal desire to share something. Caving to fan feedback is little more than design by committee creative thinking written large.

And I should say that I haven't played the game, and the ending could be horrible (it kind of sounds really stupid and rushed), but it just feels wrong somehow to placate the masses with the ending they think they deserve, mostly because in attempted to satisfy everyone, you almost invariably dilute the experience to such a degree that you satisfy no one.

@Milkman said:

@Metal_Mills said:

@Milkman said:

@Metal_Mills said:

, this whole petitioning and insulting cycle will just begin itself anew, and continue repeating itself until everyone gets the exact ending they want. Because that's how the world works now, I guess.

After 5 years, a MINIMUM of $180 and about 100 hours of time spent of their series, I think it's fair to ask for a decent ending. But how dare anyone complain about a bad thing. Shut up, accept what you're given, even though you paid for it, and never improve anything.

So, when Roger Ebert talks shit about games, they're art and he's an out of touch old asshole. But when you don't like something, games are nothing but products with their only responsibility being to please the consumer.

It doesn't work both ways.

There have been movies that change the ending. Why not games?

What movies have changed their ending weeks after release?

How is that in any way relevant? Sounds to me you're just moving the goalposts of your argument.

I'm fine with them adding a little extra explanation as long as they don't completely rewrite what they've already established as the ending.

I can't stand whining fanboys with an overinflated sense of their own entitlement and I'll always be the first to make fun of them. However, I feels the complaints about the ME3 ending are justified. It's not that it's a bad ending or even a downer ending. It's that it introduces a last-minute plot twist that comes out of left field, is out of tone with the rest of the series, makes no sense, is full of plot holes and offers no closure. There's also the fact that the three endings are 95% similar and you get them no matter what choices you make throughout the game. It's also the kind of ending BioWare promised we wouldn't get. It's never a good idea to promise people one thing and give them something else.

This video from Angry Joe does the best job explaining what's wrong with the ending:

@Tennmuerti said:

@LordCmdrStryker said:

@big_jon said:

If they charge for an alternate ending that will be effed up, but changing the ending in general seems so dumb, where is the art in that?

I mean has this ever happened to a movie or book? It seems so juvenile.

I know, right?! I've bought tons of books that I haven't ultimately been satisfied with, but I didn't get mad and write the author demanding they change it. This whole fucking thing is stupid.

Happened more times then you can imagine. Look at one of the most prominent example in literary history: Sherlock Holmes Plenty of works over the years have retroactively changed their ending. The main difference is that videogames have the luxury of doing it on the fly in the exact same product due to their overall flexibility with downloadable content, whereas movies and books mostly do it through retconning in sequels.

Sherlock Holmes was written a hundred years ago!

What is the point of demanding they change it? Does it make you feel better about playing the game after you badger the company into doing what you want? You'll never forget the first thing you saw. It will always be there. Shall I take a power drill out and remove those memories from my skull?

@hellsing321 said:

The assertion that the Mass Effect series was ever art is laughable.

Of course it is art...even if it is shit art

@hellsing321 said:

The assertion that the Mass Effect series was ever art is laughable.

Yeah but it's not like Mass Effect was a broken baby stroller that needed to be recalled because it was broke. This entire situation just feels gross. Feel like we're talking about bad detergent more than a creative, but flawed piece of text.

@TeflonBilly said:

@Milkman said:

@Metal_Mills said:

, this whole petitioning and insulting cycle will just begin itself anew, and continue repeating itself until everyone gets the exact ending they want. Because that's how the world works now, I guess.

After 5 years, a MINIMUM of $180 and about 100 hours of time spent of their series, I think it's fair to ask for a decent ending. But how dare anyone complain about a bad thing. Shut up, accept what you're given, even though you paid for it, and never improve anything.

So, when Roger Ebert talks shit about games, they're art and he's an out of touch old asshole. But when you don't like something, games are nothing but products with their only responsibility being to please the consumer.

It doesn't work both ways.

I have a Blu-Ray set of Blade Runner which has 4 different cuts of the flick plus the workprint. Do movies cease to be art now?

Those different cuts are awful and mostly the result of corporate suits attempting to make Blade Runner more marketable. I'm not saying that this has never happened before but I am saying that when it does, it always really sucks.

The biggest problem is how these changes happened. The idea that if you type enough angry words about something into the internet the creator is required to change this to appease you is a dangerous precedent. And one that is absolutely terrifying for the future of this industry.

I think I enjoy reading people complain about Alex's articles almost as much as the articles themselves. Alex Navarro, the gift that keeps on giving.

@Metal_Mills said:

@Milkman said:

@Metal_Mills said:

, this whole petitioning and insulting cycle will just begin itself anew, and continue repeating itself until everyone gets the exact ending they want. Because that's how the world works now, I guess.

After 5 years, a MINIMUM of $180 and about 100 hours of time spent of their series, I think it's fair to ask for a decent ending. But how dare anyone complain about a bad thing. Shut up, accept what you're given, even though you paid for it, and never improve anything.

So, when Roger Ebert talks shit about games, they're art and he's an out of touch old asshole. But when you don't like something, games are nothing but products with their only responsibility being to please the consumer.

It doesn't work both ways.

There have been movies that change the ending. Why not games?

What movies have changed their ending weeks after release?

I keep getting closer to saying they should have out Bioware down for the "Check Yourself Before You Wriggety-Wreck Yourself" award in the 2011 Giantbomb game of the year awards.

@DrRandle said:

And there you have it. Video games are no longer art. Thanks video game community for making sure we ruin that!

Is that what you really care about? Why does every get hung up on the term "Art". Fuck art, the ambition to create "art" is what ruins art. If something moves you that's art, no one should ever set out to create acclaimed "art", they should set out to create something that moves. You can bitch about someone having to change their vision for this series, that's fine to me, because someone did sit down and dream up this ending. But don't get pissy because now the fucking term "art" is moot. Who gives a shit? I seriously fucking hate the "games are art" discussion because of shit like this. Ironically now you're putting more people in a confining box by saying they can't change the ending, to me that defeats your whole "art" pissy tantrum. Perhaps that's what this medium truly brings to the table, it's responsive, it can be an amoeba and adapt and form to it's audiences demands and dislikes. Ever consider that? No, because now it's not "art" , fuck your art.

@Milkman said:

@TeflonBilly said:

@Milkman said:

@Metal_Mills said:

, this whole petitioning and insulting cycle will just begin itself anew, and continue repeating itself until everyone gets the exact ending they want. Because that's how the world works now, I guess.

After 5 years, a MINIMUM of $180 and about 100 hours of time spent of their series, I think it's fair to ask for a decent ending. But how dare anyone complain about a bad thing. Shut up, accept what you're given, even though you paid for it, and never improve anything.

So, when Roger Ebert talks shit about games, they're art and he's an out of touch old asshole. But when you don't like something, games are nothing but products with their only responsibility being to please the consumer.

It doesn't work both ways.

I have a Blu-Ray set of Blade Runner which has 4 different cuts of the flick plus the workprint. Do movies cease to be art now?

Those different cuts are awful and mostly the result of corporate suits attempting to make Blade Runner more marketable. I'm not saying that this has never happened before but I am saying that when it does, it always really sucks.

The biggest problem is how these changes happened. The idea that if you type enough angry words about something into the internet the creator is required to change this to appease you is a dangerous precedent. And one that is absolutely terrifying for the future of this industry.

The retconned ending to Fallout 3 is actually pretty awesome.

God dammit bioware! You should of stuck to your guns

@depecheload: Funny you should mention Evangelion, because I would pay another $60 if the ending turned out to be an existential commentary on the loneliness of man... By showing the "deaths" of everyone.

And there, in a corner: My Shepard, trying to strangle her love interest, on the shore of a blood red sea.

CONGRATULATIONS!

@TeflonBilly said:

@Milkman said:

@Metal_Mills said:

, this whole petitioning and insulting cycle will just begin itself anew, and continue repeating itself until everyone gets the exact ending they want. Because that's how the world works now, I guess.

After 5 years, a MINIMUM of $180 and about 100 hours of time spent of their series, I think it's fair to ask for a decent ending. But how dare anyone complain about a bad thing. Shut up, accept what you're given, even though you paid for it, and never improve anything.

So, when Roger Ebert talks shit about games, they're art and he's an out of touch old asshole. But when you don't like something, games are nothing but products with their only responsibility being to please the consumer.

It doesn't work both ways.

I have a Blu-Ray set of Blade Runner which has 4 different cuts of the flick plus the workprint. Do movies cease to be art now?

Those different cuts are awful and mostly the result of corporate suits attempting to make Blade Runner more marketable. I'm not saying that this has never happened before but I am saying that when it does, it always really sucks.

The biggest problem is how these changes happened. The idea that if you type enough angry words about something into the internet the creator is required to change this to appease you is a dangerous precedent. And one that is absolutely terrifying for the future of this industry.

@jakonovski said:

@big_jon said:

If they charge for an alternate ending that will be effed up, but changing the ending in general seems so dumb, where is the art in that?

I mean has this ever happened to a movie or book? It seems so juvenile.

Like I said to someone else, it has always been happening. So many of the arguments in this matter are made from a position of ignorance.

edit: like Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens, Blade Runner, to name a few that come off the top of my head. I mean come on.

Those were not swapped out in a few weeks because of fan outrage I would assume, video games are never going to be taken serious by the mainstream as a form of art if the ending of something as large as Mass Effect is simply swapped because of a bunch of small minded fans, or at least until it is no longer something that happens. A re-release years down the line is not the same as adding DLC to change the ending a couple months after release, which may or may not cost money.

The ending was not that bad, and half the people who are unhappy about it seem to be mad just because it didn't end in a happy way. I mean there is nothing wrong with not liking it but this shit is just stupid.

Guys we paid Bioware and made mass effect a hit, we deserve a better ending. It could of been a dud that no one bought, we gave them our cash and the opportunity to make more games. We deserve some kind of say in the matter.

@Taka said:

@hellsing321 said:

The assertion that the Mass Effect series was ever art is laughable.

Of course it is art...even if it is shit art

The entire series has been about placating the masses. They made the gameplay more shooter friendly because of the complaints from 1 to 2. They made previous allies romanceable based on fan feedback. Bioware has always been in the business of pleasing their fans.

It's no wonder they're calling us the "Entitled Generation"...

@big_jon said:

@jakonovski said:

@big_jon said:

If they charge for an alternate ending that will be effed up, but changing the ending in general seems so dumb, where is the art in that?

I mean has this ever happened to a movie or book? It seems so juvenile.

Like I said to someone else, it has always been happening. So many of the arguments in this matter are made from a position of ignorance.

edit: like Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens, Blade Runner, to name a few that come off the top of my head. I mean come on.

Those were not swapped out in a few weeks because of fan outrage I would assume, video games are never going to be taken serious by the mainstream as a form of art if the ending is simply swapped because of a bunch of small minded fans. A re-release years down the line is not the same as adding DLC to change the ending a couple months after release, which may or may not cost money.

The ending was not that bad, and half the people who are unhappy about it seem to be mad just because it didn't end in a happy way. I mean there is nothing wrong with not liking it but this shit is just stupid.

I'm unhappy because it has massive plot holes that make absolutely no sense. Watch this. Spoilers, obviously.

Everyone should check out the indoctrination theory, it makes a lot of sense

@Metal_Mills: but those are ALTERNATE endings that are non canonical so despite the fact that they shot them and you could see them they don't count in the end

@Tearhead said:

Ugh. I'm so tired if this shit. The game is what it is, warts and all. Just suck it up and move on

Then ignore news and forum posts about it? It goes both ways. If you don't care, just suck it up and move on.

@big_jon said:

@jakonovski said:

@big_jon said:

If they charge for an alternate ending that will be effed up, but changing the ending in general seems so dumb, where is the art in that?

I mean has this ever happened to a movie or book? It seems so juvenile.

Like I said to someone else, it has always been happening. So many of the arguments in this matter are made from a position of ignorance.

edit: like Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens, Blade Runner, to name a few that come off the top of my head. I mean come on.

Those were not swapped out in a few weeks because of fan outrage I would assume, video games are never going to be taken serious by the mainstream as a form of art if the ending is simply swapped because of a bunch of small minded fans. A re-release years down the line is not the same as adding DLC to change the ending a couple months after release, which may or may not cost money.

The ending was not that bad, and half the people who are unhappy about it seem to be mad just because it didn't end in a happy way. I mean there is nothing wrong with not liking it but this shit is just stupid.

And as many have said already, how is it relevant, the exact time when the changes are made? How long is the moratorium until making a change comes acceptable, and why?

@big_jon said:

If they charge for an alternate ending that will be effed up, but changing the ending in general seems so dumb, where is the art in that?

I mean has this ever happened to a movie or book? It seems so juvenile.

Yes it has happened, and with very famous authors like Dickens

I hate how belittling game journalists have been to the fans about this. Have you guys played the game?

I'm not mad about not having a happy ending, or that it's a twist ending, or it tries to be meaningful. There are plenty of games that do all of these well, the problem is that the ending is inherently bad and runs counter to everything the game stands for. I can see BioWare fixing the game's ending by just giving more context, and integrating it better. Overall, it was really poorly done.

@Metal_Mills: but those are ALTERNATE endings that are non canonical so despite the fact that they shot them and you could see them they don't count in the end

If you don't like it, go make your own game

@big_jon said:

@jakonovski said:

@big_jon said:

If they charge for an alternate ending that will be effed up, but changing the ending in general seems so dumb, where is the art in that?

I mean has this ever happened to a movie or book? It seems so juvenile.

Like I said to someone else, it has always been happening. So many of the arguments in this matter are made from a position of ignorance.

edit: like Arthur Conan Doyle, Charles Dickens, Blade Runner, to name a few that come off the top of my head. I mean come on.

Those were not swapped out in a few weeks because of fan outrage I would assume, video games are never going to be taken serious by the mainstream as a form of art if the ending of something as large as Mass Effect is simply swapped because of a bunch of small minded fans, or at least until it is no longer something that happens. A re-release years down the line is not the same as adding DLC to change the ending a couple months after release, which may or may not cost money.

The ending was not that bad, and half the people who are unhappy about it seem to be mad just because it didn't end in a happy way. I mean there is nothing wrong with not liking it but this shit is just stupid.

Changes were made to Sherlock Holmes and the TV Dallas as a DIRECT result of fan outrage. It's nothing new.

And that second-to-last sentence really shows that you don't grasp the situation at all. It's way more complicated than that.

@CrescentFresh said:

It's no wonder they're calling us the "Entitled Generation"...

More like the ignorant generation, since there's so many people who have completely failed to educate themselves on the fact that this has happened many times before.

Not sure how they plan to fix the terrible unless they completetly rewrite the ending.

@Milkman said:

@Fiyenyaa said:

@Milkman: So when consumer feedback is ignored the good guys win, and when it's taken into consideration (we still don't really know what the new content is gonna be) the bad guys win?

Yikes.

When an artistic vision is compromised because of the outcry of a vocal minority, yes, the bad guys win. Lost is my favorite television show of all time but I hate the ending. And I would be furious if Damon Lindelof and J.J. Abrams went back and changed that ending. That was their vision and I respect that even if I may not like it.

Yes I'm sure that making an entire game about preparing for a final battle and then ignoring all your preparations was an artistic decision. Just as not deciding what the ending would be until like 2-3 months before ship date. They didn't envision a terrible ending, they just ran out of time and money.

@Cloneslayer:

They don't have the rights.

@GrandHarrier: I watched that, I also watched videos from the other side which made a lot of sense.

This whole thing just amazes me. So what if they change the ending - how will you feel? "Man I'm sure glad I shouted and got mad so Bioware was forced to do this thing for me! That makes all the screaming and crying and articles and Youtube videos and petitions totally worthwhile! In fact, I don't even remember why I got mad in the first place!" Except that's totally bullshit and you will definitely remember what happened. It isn't going to magically change how you felt.

People who get so involved in shit like this need to get ahold of their lives. Is the ending lame? Yeah, it is. Do I care? Sort of, but I played and loved those games for hundreds of hours and I have a BRAIN IN MY HEAD SO I CAN MAKE UP MY OWN ENDING IF I FEEL LIKE IT. There's too much bad stuff going on in the world for me to devote to caring about inconsequential crap like this.

@GrandHarrier: @Itwastuesday: @jakonovski: Man, I have a lot of PMs in my inbox.

Here's my point. People are going to hate the changes that BioWare makes to the ending. No one is ever going to be happy with everything about the ending. The idea of BioWare backing down from their vision to somehow appease these whiners and that's somehow going to make everything peachy is bullshit. If BioWare had any respect towards Mass Effect, they would stand by their original artistic decisions and weather the storm. Instead they are backed down to these, essentially, internet bullies. If games ever want to be taken seriously, they can't give in to online petitions and Reddit commenters when faced with a controversy. BioWare has now set a precedent that if you scream and cry enough, you can change anything that makes you angry, which is an extremely dangerous precedent for this industry to have.

Fans hated the ending to Great Expectations so much that they complained loudly. Dickens wrote another ending. Nowadays, both are included in the novel.

@xXxLYNCHxXx:

The last thing you experience can ruin what would otherwise have been a great time. This can be applied to just about anything. Like this:

Your eating at fantastic restaurant instead of eating the last great bite of food eat something so vial that it makes you throw up. Then tell me how the whole meal was.

or

Go on a date with someone you think is very attractive (in both mind and body) have a great time, go back to your place and have sex. Then find out later that he/she/it is a sex type you didn't want to have intercourse with. Then tell me how your date was.

I don't like the Mass Effect 3 endings either.. but to change/add something to the ending after the fact because of some disillusions fans seems silly.

I am willing to bet that no one will even care anymore by the time this so called DLC is released.

people should just let go and move on.

It's a pretty smart business move for bioware. I wouldn't be surprised if it boiled down to the suits sitting in a room and discussing the financial gains from doing this DLC rather than the fan service. They will easily make over 20 million from putting out a ten dollar add on package for the ending.

I really don't see how the complainers getting acknowledged in this instance is a bad thing. I would even call it quite progressive as far community having influence over large creative projects. People who make creative works that others get very invested in yes have the right to say; no shut up to any complaints or "demands" for change but at the same time if they feel they agree with the general sentiments of the negative response and choose to alter their work to please their fans then that isn't some world destroying problem and they have every right to do so without people saying that's bullshit and should never be done.

This isn't anything new to me at all, the anime Evangelion famously had its series ending retconned by a film that was a response to angry fans and that series has now even been going through the process of being recreated entirely as 4 feature films that 2 of so far have demonstrated a much different final creative product in terms of narrative, tone etc that itself stands as a far better final piece of work.

@Tamaster92: why? to alienate and piss off their fanbase? they are a company. they want to do buisness. alienating and angering your costumer base is probably the worst thing they could do. this whole "art" argument is tedious. sure its art, but its art produced by a company who is looking to make money. same with movies. this is hardly the first thing to go back and change stuff. tired of the FO3 example? what about highlander 2, the movie that ruined the highlander franchise? they went back and released tons of director cuts and other edits of the movie desperately trying to remove the stupid alien references in an attempt to regain popularity.

its ridiculous when people claim "its art, art should never be changed". art changes ALL THE TIME.

If this is just an extended ending, I'm fine with it. I'll be really disappointed if it's entirely different, however. The saddest part is that this won't subside any complaining. In fact, it's already started over again. They've since clarified that they never said they were going to "alter" anything, so already fans are saying they need to pick back up with what they're doing and keep hammering on the game or whatever until they get EXACTLY what they want. Ugly.

@Metal_Mills said:

@Milkman said:

@TeflonBilly said:

@Milkman said:

@Metal_Mills said:

, this whole petitioning and insulting cycle will just begin itself anew, and continue repeating itself until everyone gets the exact ending they want. Because that's how the world works now, I guess.

After 5 years, a MINIMUM of $180 and about 100 hours of time spent of their series, I think it's fair to ask for a decent ending. But how dare anyone complain about a bad thing. Shut up, accept what you're given, even though you paid for it, and never improve anything.

So, when Roger Ebert talks shit about games, they're art and he's an out of touch old asshole. But when you don't like something, games are nothing but products with their only responsibility being to please the consumer.

It doesn't work both ways.

I have a Blu-Ray set of Blade Runner which has 4 different cuts of the flick plus the workprint. Do movies cease to be art now?

Those different cuts are awful and mostly the result of corporate suits attempting to make Blade Runner more marketable. I'm not saying that this has never happened before but I am saying that when it does, it always really sucks.

The biggest problem is how these changes happened. The idea that if you type enough angry words about something into the internet the creator is required to change this to appease you is a dangerous precedent. And one that is absolutely terrifying for the future of this industry.

The ORIGINAL ending was a corporate cut and hated by Harrison Ford and Ridley Scott. BUT WHO CARES ABOUT THEM? It is what it is, right?

I would just like to say this is one of the most interesting exchanges I've ever read in the GB comments.

The Blade Runner arguement is even more interesting if we consider some of the comments by Casey Hudson (The 'Ridley Scott' in this analogy) prior to the release of ME3. He made it very clear that endings would not be simple "A, B or C" choices - which is exactly what we ended up with.

So who is to say the current ME3 ending is the artistic work of Casey Hudson and the creative team or just a series of compromises and meddling by corporates to make the game more marketable as a standalone product, à la the original Blade Runner cut?