@jasonleeson: I don't think they'll drop out of the console race in the next 5 years. They'll still be making hardware, Nintendo has a ton of cash on hand to have 2 or 3 Wii U type mistakes. The 3DS is keeping them afloat and the Wii U could potentially turn a profit this time next year.

Though, it's obvious there are a lot of problems with the Wii U.

The GamePad is a harder sell to the average person than the Wii Remote was. The staple Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Donkey Kong, etc titles will not be enough to push momentum in the long run in my opinion - they'll need to step outside their comfort zone. Mario Kart 8 really needs to come out this holiday instead of Spring 2014, that's definitely a system seller. The messaging and branding for Wii U has been atrocious. The price really needs to be cut, $349.99 for a Wii U versus a PS4 at $399.99 is a hard sell.

I bought a Wii U at launch and I've supported many third party titles for it, but I've ultimately sold all of them except one. Now I only own 3 games for it - New Super Mario Bros. U + New Super Luigi U, Nintendo Land and Sonic and All-Star Racing Transformed. Nintendo left too big of a gap between first party released and it's hurt them severely. Though, the way they've set up the Wii U release schedule, there's a first party title every month from August till December and that will likely be the same for the first half of 2014.

I'm not expecting Nintendo to turn the Wii U around like the 3DS though, I think they'll gain momentum but definitely not as much as the 3DS has over the last few years.

--

I think Nintendo is doing great with the 3DS. It has quality software from a first and third party standpoint, has some great Virtual Console titles and eShop indie titles. With Pokemon X & Y coming out in October and A Link Between Worlds coming out in November, the 3DS will become even more profitable during holiday 2013. It's already a really successful product, even if it likely won't reach the success of the DS.

It's kind of hilarious to see how well the 3DS is doing and how much the Wii U is struggling, they really seem like two different companies are working on each platform.

lol

You should watch this video: http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/8zkj8p/pach-attack--wii-u-crisis-report

Michael Pachter actually knows what he's talking about.

His conclusions:

1-The 3DS is doing a little bit better than the DS before it really took off (i.e. before it double in sales year over year)

2-The WiiU sales for the first quarter of this fiscal year are pathetic

3-1 and 2 will lead to a 50% decrease (or worse) in profit for Nintendo compared to the DS/Wii days.

4-Nintendo has notoriously terrible higher managment and their share is well bellow its estimated value because of it. This leads him to conclude that it's not going to improve for Nintendo in the near future.

My predictions:

This will not sink the company since they're sitting on billions in raw cash but their slow decline seems inevitable. I guess the they might try out another console in a few years but it's more likely they will refocus on a 4DS and give up on the console market. If another management with ambition and vision isn't in place in 5-10 years they might swallow their pride and go 3rd party or trade on to the last bit of the handheld market, becoming a shadow of the old Nintendo.

They definitely have some work to do, but even with tablets, mobile gaming and such, I think their handheld dominance alone will keep them healthy well beyond 5 years. The Wii is still selling well. And though they've taken a hit with a lot of core gamers after going "casual," the Nintendo brand is still strong with the majority of people. When you look at the big picture, they really have more things going right than wrong. Even the Wii U, which has been badly launched and certainly isn't a great system, will likely end up selling more than most people think. Most analysts are saying between 30 and 40 million. A big step down from the nearly 100 million for the Wii, but not catastrophic enough to put them out of consoles in 5 year's time. Even 10 would be pushing it.

But there can be no denying that the Wii U is ultimately going to sting them. I think they'll weather it, but their next move after that is going to be crunch time for sure.

My guess is Wii U will sell about 20 million units, somewhat less than what GameCube achieved, but enough so that Nintendo believes they got some market and didn't totally fail. Then...they will try again. And, they will try again.

My guess is that the real issue will be the major share holders who will (stoically and in a very Japanese way) demand changes if the company loses more money. People say Nintendo has a 30 year war chest to live on, but the reality is probably the curret sr executives will get one more shot at a console before share holders will demand changes. After that changes will be made at the CEO, CFO, and COO postions in Japan, N America and Europe.

Nintendo turned around and looked at me and said "alive."

I own a WiiU and your take on the list is super subjective. I can do the same thing:

• Nintendo Land: Out at launch. Party game that's worse than Wiisports, fun for maybe 3 hours.
• NSMB U: Out at launch. Same game as the last 4 in the series, boring.
• Zombi U: Out at launch. Interesting but flawed, worth a rental at best.
• Rayman Legends: Out in, like, a month. Not exlusive.
• Lego City Undercover: Out in March. Reviews between bad and ok.
• Game & Wario: Confirmed "in the first six months of the year." A game people are excited about; honestly, it seems lacking to me, but people are people.
• Pikmin 3: Confirmed "in the first six months of the year." Will at least be totally fine, have played it with Wii Remote controls. Rental material.
• The Wonderful 101: Confirmed "in the first six months of the year." If it turns out, this game might be cool, probably going to rent it.
• Wii Fit U: Confirmed "in the first six months of the year." May actually sell a whole bunch of Wii Us, or not. Pretty sure the moms out there are happy enough with WiiFit 1 and 2 to pass on the 300$ price of entry.
• Monster hunter 3: Ultimate: only exclusive game on the system that combines great gameplay and great scope to justifie a purchase.

Aside from that the games annouced for the system seem lacking in vision and ambition. Nintendo use to blow minds with their revolusionary games combining quality and scope. Now its just the same old stuff over and over again. In all the games showed at E3 I'm only exited for smash bros. since it's still a great time playing with people who know what they're doing and X since it seems at least ambitious. I will probaly rent Bayoneta just to see the crazy cutscenes. Mario kart, mario land, donkey kong rely on game design from the SNES era and the fact that they put retro on donkey kong is a huge bummer.

I'm pretty much done hoping for them to suprise me the same way ubisoft did with watch dogs last year. They're just sitting on billions in potential and doing jack shit with it.

I stopped read once I reached a factual error so I didn't get far. 3DS is doing fantastically by any measure, even the unfair measure of a handheld that's been out for a decade longer. By that same measure, every modern console is a relative failure compared to the PS2. That's why people with any amount of sense dont measure that way.

If Nintendo could survive the Nintendo 64 and the Gamecube, they can survive the Wii U after the flash-in-the-pan Wii.

He posted that a little more than six and a half months ago. Just so ya know. Also, retro games are some of the best games ever made, even today, so standing by certain older design philosophies isn't a bad thing in my book. I just wish they would do something else with it instead of making the same games over and over again. DKCR did some fun stuff with the old Donkey Kong Country ideas, it just didn't do all of them as well as DKC2 did. God, DKC2 is such an amazing game.

Uh, anyway.

I still stand by what I said in this thread way back when:

Hasn't the 3DS already outsold the PS3's lifetime sales in Japan?

Nintendo will survive. They might have some serious issues but I don't think that Nintendo will go away for a long time yet.

Nintendo isn't out of steam yet. The Wii U isn't floating anyone's boat, but there's still something they could do with it. And, really, I don't want Nintendo to die. I want to see them do something new with what they have. Not just Super Mario 3D Land, they need to step back and say "OK, what can we do with this that we have never done before"?

And I'm not talking about a gimmick. I'm not talking about a new little mechanic that barely changes gameplay. They need an imaginative new property or an interesting new direction for a current property - think a movement on the level of Super Metroid - > Metroid Prime.

@i_fuk_your_girlfriend: Best/Worst Username Ever?

Yep, everyone seems to agree on this except Nintendo. The funiest thing is, you can't even send them a message so they change their ways for the better. If a lot of people buy the games they will think ''our strategy is working, keep cranking out these samy games, they love it''. If you don't buy their games they will think ''god, we can't even sale mario games anymore, but what else can we do? Invest in new ideas and concepts? That's way to expensive and risky, just keep cranking out these samy games, maybe they'll buy them this time.

I am very done with Nintendo. I gave my sister my ds and 3ds because she wanted to play Pokemon. I made her clean my whole room when she visited in exchange for Pokemon. She is 24 years old, so I guess Pokemon will always keep them afloat along with Mario and their other horrible game franchises they keep churning out.

Basically, yeah. If I made a million dollars last year and I make eight hundred thousand this year, technically I've made less, but I'm still making a ridiculous amount of money. Nintendo makes so much more money than Sony or Microsoft it's ludicrous, and that's exactly why they can do all their crazy insular shit. They don't see themselves as competing with other companies because they aren't.

All that being said, I could see them foregoing consoles to focus on handheld stuff. The 3DS has seen a much warmer reception than the Wii U, and phone/tablet games are absolutely nowhere near games made for dedicated handheld devices and never will be. I don't think they'll get out of the console game, but I wouldn't be completely shocked if they did.

You can make the argument that Nintendo hasn't done a whole lot to innovate with their major brands, but when did they begin churning out "horrible games" ? I mean, I know it's popular to hate on Nintendo and pretend that Mario and Pokemon only appeal to children, that is a misconception I can understand. I think that point of view is wholly subjective and, frankly, quite ignorant as well, but I can at least get why somebody might feel that way.

But to say that Nintendo has been "churning out horrible games" is something else entirely. Either you haven't played many games that Nintendo has put out in the past few years, or you're purposefully choosing to be totally hyperbolic with your choice of words there. Nintendo, even when they're at their absolute worst, does not put out horrible games.

@i_fuk_your_girlfriend: Hey who ever you are. If you want to talk about me or with me at least do not use a fake account because you are too scared for whatever reason. Come back with your real account and we can talk^^

Oh and I bashed your community because some of you guys wanted to bail out of the EVO charity money thing if you were going to lose which was just a douchebag idea. Luckily people there have any form of respect and honesty there.

Nintendo will do fine, and I hope they don't "evolve" like most people want them too. I don't want a FOURTH (counting PC/Steam) machine with the same multiplatform games. I don't want to be bombarded with twitter/facebook feeds, Skype, NFL stats and other non-gaming related garbage when I turn on my console. I just want to play Nintendo games on my Nintendo, and everything else on PC (or PS/Xbox if not on PC).

I don't know where they'll be in 5 years, but the direction I hope they go is to stop making hardware and just make games for the other platforms. I want the next Metroid, Zelda and Mario to be on Steam. Wishful thinking, I know. :)

I would say Nintendo are going to fine but today a guy working here for 8 years got fired. So I can't say where they will be in 5 years

Continuing to make awesome Mario games .

Saying phone/tablet games will never be near games made for handheld is a bit premature. You never know... they may all end up being played on a single device.

And grossly flawed thinking at that. Nintendo's output has always been the quality that it's historically been because they make games on their own hardware. They know the hardware in and out, and the money they've made on hardware has helped in their game development budgets. Take that away, and you know what you'll probably get? Maybe not something as awfully inconsistent as post-hardware Sega, but definitely not the best that Nintendo would have to offer. Not to mention the number of jobs that would be lost in the process, between hardware development, the certification teams, and their other departments that are all dependent on being in the hardware manufacturing business.

So I wouldn't call your thinking wishful as much as it is self-serving.

ehh the gamecube didn't do real great, but then they followed it up with the Wii which is one of the best-selling consoles of all time. The Wii U may fail, but between their massive warchest from the last generation and a strong showing from the 3DS I wouldn't worry about them till their next console fails. Even then, they are sitting on some of the most beloved IP of all time, and unless they decide to just set fire to Metroid, Zelda, Mario, and Pokemon they'll have room to work.

I mean come on, you know somewhere, in the darkest bowels of Nintendo, they are sitting on the design doc of a Pokemon MMO and laughing at World of Warcraft's subscription numbers :p

dude my comments were made Pre-PS4 reveal over 6 months ago. Everything is different now. Back then they (Sony) were unceremoniously chopping 1st party studios left and right and the Vita was dead in the water. It didn't look real good for Sony.

Since then they've made great strides in fixing their messaging problem and have laid out a clear plan for why you want a PS4 instead of an XboxOne with a heck of a console reveal and then a great E3. Sony as whole itself still isn't in great shape if you look at their financials (no doubt in part to major issues related to currency exchange rates), but the Videogame division has made a heck of a comeback.

It's funny to read through the first couple of posts on this thread, then come along to today's posts and see how much of the optimism has been pretty heavily rendered null and void. The WiiU has had a horrible run, mostly due to the fact that it doesn't exactly appeal to anyone who a) bought a Wii because it was the most active-body console out there, or b) felt burned by Nintendo after the Wii was devoid of any worthwhile content after the first year and a half after launch.

In five years though? I'd say Nintendo will be dropping home consoles, and focusing on the handheld market. The 3DS is a good, solid handheld system that is accessible and has promise, but they need to learn how to release games in Europe faster, because I've yet to see Shin Megami Tensei IV or Etrian Odyssey be released here...those long delays shouldn't be a thing in this day and age. While people might defer to sales numbers and say 160,000 isn't bad, the issue with that is the same as the main rebuttal against the Wii: how many of those consoles are actually being used. I've heard that many of them just sit there due to a lack of games, and Nintendo's release schedule, as it has been since the DS and the Wii, has been an utter barren disaster. Pikmin 3 won't make people drop 300+ on a console, neither will Bayonetta 2, and the growing pool of third party devs jumping ship on something they had claimed they were 'excited for' is staggering. Iwata recently talked about the 'long-term' plans of Nintendo...Nintendo have no long-term plans. They have hubris, enough self-confidence to fool a room into thinking they aren't freaking out, but given how quickly and completely the home console market will smother the WiiU in a few more months, a slight turnaround isn't going to save them now. They'll survive for sure, claw their way out of the rubble and continue to plug away and make massive bank with the handheld gaming systems, but they'll not recover from the thrashing the WiiU has gotten, not in this market.

@dookysharpgun: Neither SMT or Etrian Odyssey are Nintendo properties, and as far as I know Nintendo has had nothing to do with the development of either of those games. It isn't really up to them to ensure a timely European release for either of those games, that is unless you were suggesting that Nintendo take a more hands on approach with their 3rd party relations in that territory. Anyway, my point being, blame Atlus for the delay, not Nintendo.

EDIT: Actually upon looking into it, Nintendo was involved in the publishing side of SMT IV, although in my opinion the responsibility should still fall upon Atlus. With that said, it would be good to see Nintendo take a more active role in working with 3rd parties to see franchises like SMT released in a timely fashion worldwide.

@ihateyouron: my point was exactly that: Nintendo need a more hands-on approach when dealing with third-party titles that have already garnered great interest. And since the games are only coming to their console, I don't see why they can't put a boot to an arse and actually given Europe some games for a console people actually want. As opposed to the WiiU, which in this territory is floundering and near death. Atlus have a shitty track record, but Nintendo gave the go-ahead, and the blame rests on their shoulders if they can't control what few third party developers are still willing to publish on any of their consoles. They could even work closely with them and give them the support they need so that the 3DS would actually have some interesting titles in this territory, but as it stands, this isn't the case.

Let me put it this way: every day after the US launch that a game hasn't come out in Europe, is another day that interest wains. I find myself not as interested in Shin Megami Tensei or Etrian Odyssey as the unrealistic time between releases gets larger. Hell, SMT doesn't have a freaking set date for release in Europe anymore, it's been taken off most online European game stores for the last two weeks. The point is, Nintendo are allowing developers use of their consoles, but show no interest after that, nor support. The Indie scene had the same problem with WiiWare and the like, and it's up to Nintendo to fix this problem. The 3DS is their best chance at gaining money back from the WiiU losses...they shouldn't squander that when they know who they're in bed with. After all, the list isn't that big to begin with.

Nintendo is not going to die. When they get in bad shape they will just spend their last couple hundred million to make the Pokemon MMO everyone has been dreaming of for years and make billions off of it for the rest of eternity. Hopefully by then they will have dropped out of hardware all together and become a third party developer and that way the game can be on PC with oculus rift support and be the greatest thing ever.

@bourbon_warrior: give me my kinect pokemon game and then I'm happy.

Just yelling, "OOONNNIXXX GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!' at my tv as loud as a I can. I mean I do that now, but nothing happens.

@dookysharpgun: That is a good point actually, and admittedly it isn't something I consider very often, as I live in the US. I think simple policy changes like that would go a long way towards changing the public perception of Nintendo's relationship with 3rd party developers, same goes for becoming more indie friendly.

Here is the thing though: 5 years is a hell of a long time in mobile technology. It's moving at an insane rate. Imagine what games will be like on smartphones.

I really think it's going to get to the point where it'll be one heck of a hard sell to convince people to carry around an extra device (never mind pay for) when what they've got is awesome already.

@ihateyouron: You get the good end of the deal so, most of the time, especially with that sweet Fire Emblem and SMT deal they have going on at the moment...a deal I can't avail of because Atlus is acting the bollox. I would like Nintendo to take a more hands-on approach with their third party products, even a little extra funding or some translators would be nice to see funneled into third party developers. I think Nintendo will become more Indie friendly with the WiiU, given that it'll then have a larger library of games that will fill the space left by their own lack of first party titles. It's the only way to go, and it would garner interest in the long run.

@jasonleeson: This is true, but the recent story about Iwata saying that Nintendo won't go third party leads me to believe that even in a growing a changing handheld market, they'll still have their exclusives to keep them afloat. I mean, look at what the shitty sales of the 3DS did for Fire Emblem: Awakening; that series was dead, they were straight up finished with it, but one console that had no games and bam, millions on units sold. Granted that took a price drop too, but other than being a more powerful version of a DS with 3D (that I can't use) it was necessary. My point being that yes, Nintendo will be in a major conflict in the handheld market, but they have namebrand games and a history of more successful handhelds than home consoles. They'll dominate with Pokemon alone, everything else they release will just be icing on the cake.

@dookysharpgun:

It's true that they have great IP's - But who's to say that with total ubiquity of smartphones, over the next 5 years new IP's come along that capture massive chucks of the kids market. What if, say, there is a Minecraft-level game that is big game changer.

And there's a thing: Minecraft. This generation of kids was basically lost to Minecraft. It's all they talk about. I doubt they'll be reminiscing about Mario and Zelda as much as the 20-somethings of today.

Not to mention stuff like Disney Infinity. It seems as though Nintendo's IP's will gradually loose the numbers they once had.

@jasonleeson: True, I've said that many a time that Nintendo don't really make unique games anymore, because they never made unique games to begin with, the Indie scene is encroaching hard on their territory with cheaper, better games. However, they'll still scrap and fight to survive, it's what Nintendo do, they'll probably be more conservative and need to drop the price of their handheld games, because forty-five plus quid is ridiculous for a handheld game, but they'll survive. Hopefully it'll lead to them learning though, and making better games for it. I'm being highly optimistic given that in a little over thirty years, they've driven most of their games into the ground, or fucked them up royally.

@dookysharpgun: I'm totally optimistic for their chances as a games publisher if they cut this console bullshit and double down on their IP's. At a certain point it's going to get to the stage where Nintendo are holding back Mario & Princess Peach hostage, literally becoming Bowser.

The only thing that separates Nintendo from every other game maker on the planet it Iwata and Miyamoto. Without them involved in the company, I imagine the spark will die out. Any innovation or nostalgia people feel for Nintendo and its characters are tied to the hope that Iwata can lead another Wii level break through and that Miyamoto designs another great Zelda game.

If these two aren't involved and the culture of Nintendo changes none of the tradition or great characters separate the company from a place like Disney. People have zero faith that a cartoon tied to Mickey Mouse will have the same quality as the next Mario game. I think this is the bleak future of these franchises without good creative types behind them. Both men are still prolifically producing but if they get ousted (or retire) like Inafune who knows what happen.

@jasonleeson: I think if they stick to handhelds but cut the gimmick BS, given how it's usually shite and pointless, and focus on games, they have a better chance of survival. What they need to do is cut the old guard loose, Iwata and Miyamoto and the like need to retire, because they're not with the times, and in their hubris, they've done more harm than good. Mario and Zelda need to change, Metroid needs love and Fire Emblem needs carefully crafted games for the future to keep the IP fresh.

So this thread has devolved into the usual pontification by armchair analysts that results in wildly differing theories. Awesome. I'm out.

If they put out other successful handheld games (which would work out great) on the WiiU, ie. Animal Crossing or Luigi's Mansion2, then they might get the WiiU back in the spotlight of having more games people want to play on it though having lots of backwards compatibility would do good on that too. If they don't get more games on it to make it relevant I believe Nintendo will just switch to doing just handheld games.

Old Guard/New Guard

@dookysharpgun: I completely disagree with you when you say that Nintendo has driven their properties into the ground, I won't say that you're wrong, but could you please specify exactly what you mean by that? Please list a few examples of properties that Nintendo has "driven into the ground" or as you put it "fucked them up royally."

Perhaps you and I interpret those phrases differently, because when I read that I don't think of the mediocrity that is the NSMB series, I don't think of the beautifully flawed Skyward Sword, I don't think of even think of Metroid: Other M (which I would say is probably the worst "Nintendo" game of the last 10 years, and it wasn't even developed by Nintendo internally) I think those phrases imply something much worse.

I mean, has the NSMB series really tainted the brand so much that people are completely apathetic towards any game with Mario in the title?

I don't mean to lump you into this category, but I honestly think that certain people are so eager to jump on the Nintendo hate bandwagon that they're completely ignoring the quality of the games that Nintendo puts out, and are mostly just reacting to the fact that they aren't new IPs. To some extent, I'm with those people. I too want new IPs from Nintendo, but I still recognize that they maintain a pretty consistent level of quality with their titles, more so than pretty much any other publisher that I can think of.

Nintendo will be around in five years and even ten, but you have to define you terms. By 'be around' I mean making games, making home consoles and/or making handhelds. But, that is it. The current Sr Executives staff could be gone. Reliance on old IPs only we can only hope changes. Being in any sort of position to be grouped with Sony, Microsoft in teh gaming space might be gone.

Depending on WHAT you think of when you say Nintendo, it may or may not be what you think in five years. I hope it is better! I hope they join the rest of the world, yet keep their own tone and games. In five years I hope we find them embracing the new tech and new games people play too.

@ihateyouron: We can start with Metroid, that has long since been abandoned when Other M failed to meet anyone's expectations. Mario has started to grind on people to an extent that the promise of a new game in the series isn't enough to guarantee sales. Zelda has devolved into using art styles to try and garner some fan favour, to such an extent that they decided to re-release Wind Waker on the WiiU to try and salvage the console. NSMB was a rush job of reused assets, music and models, to the point that it really felt like Nintendo were insulting their fanbase. They needed a quick fix for the WiiU, and it didn't work. We can't forget that, thanks to Nintendo, Fire Emblem nearly died as a series, with Awakening being put in the limelight because of the 3DS and its pretty terrible library. Imagine if the console had been even mildly successful at launch? Awakening would have been another great game that got shunted to the side because of some archaic thinking (from what I can see) from Nintendo.

My issue with that 'Nintendo hate bandwagon' is that...well it simply puts anyone with any real grievance with Nintendo as a company into a box that people can label and ignore. I was a massive Nintendo fan for most of my life, but I eventually seen that what they were doing was more damaging to their brands than helpful. People want to ignore criticism of Nintendo, I've seen it time and time again, but really, a majority of the dissenting opinions are people looking for the company they loved to grow and adapt. What, exactly, is wrong with that? Hell, an argument on this thread is that mobile games will steal the kids away from Nintendo handhelds...by comparison, what I'm saying is actually logical and not hate-filled at all. Their IPs are scattered and scarce, so much so that they haven't bothered with a new Star Fox game, instead re-releasing a pretty piss-poor remake of an older game that clocked three hours and wasn't worth the asking price for the 3DS. Sure, they're saying that they're coming up with new IPs now, but that's far too late in the game when you see the way they've treated Kirby, Metroid, Star Fox and Zelda. They've used Mario as their go-to mascot, and it's starting to wear thin.

I don't hate Nintendo, I find it sad that they've ended up in the state they're in. I mean, for god's sake, they can't even manage a proper launch schedule for their exclusive games anymore, the HD Zelda isn't on the horizon for a long while yet, and if it's more of the same, it'll just be another nail in the coffin, they've got maybe five or six games to release between now and Christmas, but at that point the console has been out a year...again, it's too late. I've seen this with the Gamecube, the Wii and the DS...they have all of these fantastic ideas and no knowledge of how to utilise them. They forget that on any console, you need games, and even more to the point, you need games to come out at a steady and reliable rate. Plenty of people have jumped ship on Nintendo, the casual market sees the WiiU as another Wii, it's a disaster, and they only have themselves to blame. At some point, the same thing over and over again won't interest people.

However, I feel like this will just descend into the usual shit-slinging that I'm accustomed to on any forum involving Nintendo, judging by a few of the prior comments, it's already started, so I'm going to cut my losses and leave this, I can't stomach yet another debate on this crap. Thank you for at least having the common decency to have a conversation with me though, I won't subject myself to the vitriol that comes with other people missing the point of what I'm saying and simply coming in with bull-headed opinions and no room in their head for other people's ideas. Again, thank you, but this is Giantbomb, and I know when to leave these debates.

No, but it's been 6 years since Super Mario Galaxy. 6 years since an honest-to-god step forward the Mario name.

Conversely, look at the Metal Gear franchise. 25 years old and still not afraid to push forward, with V going open-world for the first time.

@dookysharpgun: Well, I suppose you and I will just have to agree to disagree on the quality of those games. However, I would like to clarify that I didn't mean to imply that you were jumping on the hate bandwagon. I agree with most of your criticisms regarding Nintendo's release schedule and their policies. However, again, I will have to disagree with you when you say that it is too late.

Anyway, again I apologize if I came across as inflammatory, it's just that this thread presents many perfect examples of people who seem to have already made up their minds about Nintendo, and offer no reasonable suggestions as to how they might turn things around.

Mario Galaxy 2 was released in 2010, which although it didn't really shake things up, I would still say it is a fantastic game that, in many ways, is superior to the original. Mario 3D Land was released in 2011 and is also lauded as one of the best Mario games in many years. I mean I understand what you're saying, but I think it is sort of unreasonable to expect Nintendo to completely reinvent the wheel with the Mario franchise every couple of years. If a game has solid mechanics and maintains a high level of quality, is that not enough? I think your Metal Gear comparison is a little ridiculous.

To clarify, that isn't to say that I think Nintendo shouldn't try to innovate with the Mario franchise, I just think it is really unrealistic to expect a Mario Galaxy esque paradigm shift with each new entry in the series.

@ihateyouron: Alright, expecting a Mario Galaxy esque paradigm shift might be a little much. But c'mon, at least they should have had a Mario game on the same level of SM64/SMSunshine/SMGalaxy to launch the system. Or with the ship clearly sinking, they should be announcing something like this.

They'll be 5 years in the future.

Also, I think this thread is starting to devolve. There's some questionable back and forth.