So I picked up Nuclear Throne this weekend, when they finally said it was out/no longer in Early Access. At first, I was having fun with the game, but after maybe 20 runs or so a couple of things have been nagging me.

A part of it is I think this game is too hard. I had amazing runs that were ended instantly, because I fired a grenade and I was too close to it and I died. Spending 10 minutes on a run and have it end in literally 2 seconds isn't that great of a feeling. Sometimes it felt like I had 4 health, got shot by one single projectile and I died. I am a fan of games like FTL: Faster Than Light and The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth and I don't get hung up on the aspect of bad rolls, especially since it feels like there are clear lessons with a lot of the ways you die in those games. In Nuclear Throne, it feels like a bad roll will lead you to spawning into a tiny room, with only one square to escape, and in the next room there is a swarm of guys followed by sniper like enemies. Also with this example, a boss that shoots literally dozens of projectiles at you found me and then I died while trying to fight a boss and three snipers. This game has had some of the best examples of truly bad rolls with roguelikes.

Dying itself isn't the only issue, since the thing that bums me out about this is when you do die, you have to start over at 1-1, listen to the same music, fight the same 5 enemies for three floors, fight the same boss, pick from the same weapons and mutations, and so on. It all feels very same-y. It's a shame, because I like Luftrausers, I like twin stick shooters, I like roguelikes, but I was expecting so much more from this game. Putting aside the dying aspects, I don't really feel the hook. It might be unfair, but I wish this game was more like The Binding of Isaac. I wish there was more of a draw to do another run when you die or more weapons or mutations to play around with. Instead it feels like they made a twin stick shooter where you can die really fast, which is...alright? To tie it back to the difficulty aspect, it almost feels like the game is too hard based on the resources and drops they give you. The level number is a bit unusual, but I think the farthest I've made it was 3-2 (the boss that is a dog that spins around shooting lasers).

Now that this game is "out", what do you guys think? Based on Steam reviews and the overall HYPE I know I'm in the minority. I know this game was super popular on Steam, but I'm not really seeing why.

I can agree with your sentiment about fighting the same enemies every run. I'd have thought bosses would be randomly cycled through but I guess that's not the case.

Healthwise it feels fine to me though, especially with the dodge and armor the first few characters have.

if you are just looking for the same weapons and mutations then you are doing it wrong, for one the chances of you always getting the same loadout are pretty slim as they have added a load more weapons since it first hit early access and there are a fair bit of mutations to try and mix and match. And there is a lot more skill to this game then just a bad roll. i have made it to world 5 several times. Also it is not a game that you sit down and play for hours on end. It is one of those games that you sit down and play for ten to twenty minutes become you have time to kill before you go to bed or head off to class. Also once you play through the first hand full of levels they become much easier and quicker to blow through. Whenever i start another game it takes me less then five minutes to make it to world 3. You just have to learn what tatics are good against who.

What makes you so vulnerable in Nuclear Throne is not the overall amount of health, it's the fact that you have almost non-existent invincibility frames after getting hit. So if you get caught in a shotgun blast or machine-gun-like fire your health will drop pretty damn quick.

I am with you on the lack of variety for sure - I understand why, for example, the bosses are in a set order (they are progresively more difficult and you need the mutations to beat them), but it's a bummer.

And I had some deaths after 25+ minutes of play, spawning and going from 8HP to 0HP in less than two seconds not knowing why, only realising there was a melee guy by the picture of what killed me. Hapens rarely though, I am playing really carefully now, looks like it's the best way to progress. The third boss always kills me super fast though, I don't really feel I am learning anything for the next run at the moment. I am 7 hours in, but I do feel the pull to go again.

EDIT: I killed the third boss and he killed me as well, grrrr!!

I've had several 2 hour+ sessions, and there's quite a lot of absurd hidden content that I never would have expected in a game like this. It took me a while to get into it back during Early Access, but I stuck with it and it's one of my favorite games these days.

You will die. A lot. You'll get killed by bullshit. You'll get angry. But the game is fun as hell, so who cares. A big part of it is that you learn from each run. With a few exceptions, I find that nearly every death I have is one I could avoid if I did something different.

As you play more, the first few levels start to just fly by. You'll also discover how to get new starting weapons. Having a grenade launcher when I start out as Crystal is pretty badass.

I've also gained a new found appreciation for screwdrivers, lately...

Interesting to see some negatives (I haven't searched too hard yet, though). I was planning to pick this up tonight and expecting high difficulty anyway. The sameness I'm not sure will bother me either since I spent so much time playing Spelunky. I feel like I've had plenty of seemingly un-winnable situations in FTL also, so I don't know if I agree with that comparison. FTL is fucking rough sometimes, but maybe I've just been unlucky.

@nickhead: FTL can always and forever go get fucked for making you fight the same boss three or four times in a row. I saw it blow up the first time after all buy one of my crew heroically boarded their ship in an effort to bring them down. And they did. The blew the ship apart but somehow it magically glued itself back together again.

Fuck FTL.

@jesus_phish: I'm genuinely sort of surprised that when the Advanced Edition of FTL came out, they didn't overhaul the final boss, because it continues to feel like the one really cheap, unfair part of the game that the most players complain about. I mean, I backed the game on Kickstarter and have been fucking around with it since the backer beta, and I know of the ways you can cheese the final boss and have beaten it numerous times. However, I've had a lot of fun, off-beat weapon/item builds in FTL where through my own gumption and quick thinking I get through all the sectors to the final boss, but the build is just not viable against all the BS that the final boss has access to.

The max level cloaking of the first form of the boss wastes SO MUCH of your time while you're trying to punch through his shields. The drone DPS of the second form is totally absurd even when you have high amounts of shields and engine dodge. The last form is actually kind of a joke by comparison, but the first two forms are so fucked up that they'll be the ones to end your run before you ever see the final form.

At the very least, the one change they could make is a dialogue change with your superior officers in the final sector. They should warn you that the flagship cannot be taken down in a single fight or something. Anecdotally, I've heard so many different players say they felt cheated that they were able to beat the first form by the skin of their teeth, only to find out it's the only ship in the game with multiple forms, and then they say "fuck that" and put the game down forever. The game should give you SOME warning about how that final boss works.

I agree this is perhaps unfairly hard and cheap but it doesn't seem to piss me off like other games do. Probably won't ever get very good at it, though.

I think they could really fix the problems I have with it with one thing: some sort of progression.

It seems like I wouldn't get frustrated with dying so easy if I could just see a little bar go up to trick my brain into thinking I'm making progress (much like it does in Downwell)

I would say Spelunky and Galak-Z are similar in respects that you know the order of bosses/levels. I'm not convinced that it makes these bad roguelikes. I enjoy the feel and gameplay of this game much more than Isaac for example.

I'd chalk this up to different strokes for different folks. So keep on stroking!

@jesus_phish: this made me chuckle, sorry

@ballsleon: I really liked how Galak-Z controls and plays, but boy do I wish 17-Bit would just fucking staff up more so that A) this game didn't take nearly 3 years to make and shipped without the final season, and B) even with all that time it still feels kinda light on content compared to Spelunky. I think the enemies behave intelligently so kudos for that, but you've seen all of the environments (2) and enemy types by the end of Season 2 pretty much, so all that's left is dealing with a few new scripted boss sequences at the end of the remaining seasons, and then seasons 3 and 4 are just real assholes that bring out the elite versions of all the enemies so every fight is an eternity because the enemies take like 20-40 hits to die.

I think the upgrade system is also well realized, but the mission objectives aren't great, they're just fine, and then it doesn't feel like there are that many enemy types, though yes their AI is quite finely tuned. I just wish there was more of that game, instead of the only thing left for me to do now is go back and try for those "finish season 4 without ever using missiles"-type achievements. It's generally really easy to complete the game compared to Spelunky.

I think to some extent your second issue is what mitigates the second issue, to some extent? Because you know the bosses and enemies, you get hit less as you improve, if you see what I mean.

To some extent I think the mistake is thinking of this game as a roguelike? It's more like an old fashioned shooter or something, but with some randomised elements.

Although I can't really disagree that it is frustrating when you get spawned in a corned with nowhere to go.

Nuclear Throne is more of an old style dual joystick shooter than a Roguelike, I don't even think Vlambeer has marketed it that way (well it says "Roguelike-like," which might as well just mean indie game that has gameplay in this day and age). The levels are very similar from run to run and the only thing that's random is weapons/mutations but that's more due to the sheer number of them.

That being so the game is just fast and difficult from start to finish, there's very little patience and planning going on, sure when you get better or you think about builds and so forth there's some mild amount of depth to it but for the most part it's just how good are you at the shooty and the dodgy.

Nuclear Throne does have a steep learning curve and high skill level. The game really forces you to learn enemy capabilities and patterns, and there will be plenty of deaths (especially when you are first beginning) that seem unavoidable and cheap. It is very much like Spelunky in that the levels generated can and should be played through quickly and death can come quick and unexpected. The game clearly does not want you to beat it every single time, and you shouldn't expect to without putting in the time.

My first 5-10 hrs of Nuclear Throne were very frustrating, there were several times I would put it down for days or weeks because of bad luck with the runs i was given. But once you find a character and weapon type that fits your style the game will start becoming more fun if you give it the chance.

I love me some roguelikes, and I honestly think it's one of the best out there. It's definitely in the upper echelon of great roguelikes with Spelunky and The Binding of Isaac. I've spent nearly 100 hours in the game over the past few months. However I will say that the game is much more reliant on having fast reflexes as opposed to something like The Binding of Isaac, which is much more about strategy. I guess some people just don't like that they can die so quickly and not make any progress. I however enjoy the game and will continue to for years.

Regarding progression, there is...something.

I get what a lot of people are saying that Nuclear Throne is more like a shooter than a roguelike. And I guess I can't complain too much about the game being hard, since I reached 6-1 (with the build I had, at least) after I wrote my first post less than 24 hours ago.

One part I didn't really emphasize was when I started I did really like the game. Then I hit a wall trying to get pass world 3, or kept dying for some reason trying to get back to where I was. I'm going to keep tinkering with it and see where it takes me, but it feels like every day I play this game I keep flipflopping on how I feel about it.

By the way, here's how I died in 6-1: I walked down an hallway in the dark. Nothing was there. I was about to turn a corner, when the blue...police guys(?) who appear when you attack the square monument suddenly appeared (even though I didn't attack that square thing on that level). Also a turret appeared behind me. And then enemies from off the screen fired multiple red lasers at me. Even with a gun that had bouncing bullets, 10 HP, and a shield, I still died almost instantly. Procedurally generated levels, am I right?!?!!

@sdoots: If the thing about gold weapons is true, that sounds really good to me. Part of the reason why I bummed out about starting over is I have to use the same weak ass revolver. It would be a lot better if I could pick between a couple of starting weapons.

@thomasnash: Yeah, I think you have a point there. Like I go into world 2 thinking about the rats and it would be nice if I had a shotgun or an assault rifle so I can spray the hallways or hit enemies around corners. I still think variety helps in these types of games. Again they are totally different games, but The Binding of Isaac wouldn't be that great if there was less variety from run to run.

@jesus_phish: I never actually finished FTL myself, but I still had a lot of fun playing it. I don't know about everyone else, but for me it felt like eventually the threats just kept coming and I was always missing something. I would either not have any good weapons, or enough fuel, or my crew would suffocate. Something would always happen, but there felt like a reason behind what was behind my inevitable death. So yeah it's still great, but fuck FTL (kinda).

Here's my problem with the game. It's not too hard to have good runs, but when you do, expect the game to fuck you over in some really unfair ways that are totally out of your control. I HATE the way explosions work in this game. I don't mind the splash damage from just using weapons too close, but a car getting sucked into an end-level portal and killing you in the process should not be a thing that happens. It's horseshit, but it happens regularly. The second and third bosses explode when they die, too, and that can also kill you. The first time I killed the third boss, it flew into me and killed me, which wasn't my fault in any way. Since I'm mainly using the crystal guy since I'd like to clear the game sometime this century, I've noticed that using his shield doesn't block explosive damage, as well as a few other damage types. That also seems kinda cheap. The shield's use is already pretty limited...why make it more so?

Too many one-hit deaths, too. Even at full health, those purple assassins, or the crystals that shoot lasers (those things can eat a fat dick), or the robots that throw cars at you, all that shit kills you in one hit.

That said, I still think the core gameplay is incredibly fun, so much so that it's hard to put down even after being screwed over several times in a row. I think the large amount of weapons to play with provides enough variety. There also seem to be a good amount of secret things to uncover. I'm pretty satisfied with the formula of the game, but some of it does really piss me off.

Yup just instantly died to some orange diamond thing out of nowhere. Was on a really good run with 14hp and the "halo" thing that saves you from death and still died with no warning. Fuck this game, I'm done.

Just reminding people that an actual game of Rouge/Nethack can take hours and end instantly in the blink of an eye with next to zero warning, at any time. Hell, they even have a term for it.

If you want to argue that Nuclear Throne has you dying and resetting all the way back to the start too much, you need to divorce that from the idea that it's a poor Roguelike (or whatever term you want to substitute if you feel that comparing a twin stick shooter and a turn based ASCII game isn't what you were going for), as that aspect is perfectly in line with what those games are.

@clagnaught: Ultimately what really started annoying me was that having to fight that boss so many times felt like it required you to have a specific set of upgrades and weapons and without those there was just no point. Looking at other roguelikes, Spelunky and Rogue Legacy I never felt like the game became impossible just because I didn't get one of five acceptable builds. Everything felt possible so long as I played well. With FTL it felt like if I was half way through the star system and hadn't reached a certain point then I knew the end boss would be impossible to beat just once, never mind multiple times.

@bisonhero: I am that guy. After that fight I played FTL a few more times and then never again. When I saw they where putting out an updated version of it the first thing I looked for was to see if they were going to tweak that fight and when they didn't I never bothered to load the game up again. The only thing that would get me to play it now would be some sort of endless mode where you just pilot your ship around doing mercenary type jobs, I think I remember seeing a mod for that but the final boss left me with such a bad impression.

@ripelivejam:As long as someone gets some enjoyment out of it, the it's alright!

I was hit by two of the laser crystals with less than 14hp and didn't die. I will guess that it ticks and you didn't find cover in time.

Isn't that sort of the point with these games - now you know how that enemy functions?

@mirado: You are correct, but ther have been so many roguelike-like games these past couple of years that the meaning of the term shifts over time. Your argument is like trying to force someone to use the term "spam" only for the meat and not for its new, widely accepted use of calling that unrequested marketing or whatever. You know, spam. This is a roguelike in that sense.

As others have said, you're approaching this with the wrong mindset. It's a great controlling shooter with some light randomisation. Mastering the character specific abilities is where the real fun is and is what will start to make your runs more successful. Once I got a grip on Melting, playing it was like zen and even with only 2 starting health I was consistently making it to the 4th world and beyond.

During the 40 odd hours I've played (since beta) I don't think I've ever experienced a death that wasn't my fault. It is hard, but not unfairly so.

@quipido: Yeah, that's why I said you can use whatever term you like for it, including roguelike. It doesn't really bug me what you call it, I was just mentioning that the amount of dying and reseting on hand isn't out of the ordinary for these kind of games, especially if you are sticking to the "spam as in meat" definition that you pointed out.

@mirado:Ok then!

It's a great shooter and the deaths are brutal - the ninja dude which is hard to see (maybe my colorblindness adds to this) and who sometimes doesn't move until you get close tkaes 5HP in one swing! And he attacks pretty fast which combined with next to no invincibility frames means he can just take you down almost instantly, there is no time to react if you didn't see him. But it keeps pulling me back, I just need to be more careful I guess. Eleven somothing hours in I make it to 5-3 pretty consistently, that's where my current brick wall stands.

And some others here pointed out you need to be quick and play it as a fast shooter, that is true but there are definetely situations when you need to hide and pick targets one by one, not get greedy and be slow!

@mirado: There's no doubt that death in the blink of an eye is a long time fixture of games like this. Whether it should be, or whether that is a good feature of roguelike(like)s, is a quite different question, and one that a game designer would definitely want to think carefully about. But it seems like a pretty deliberate feature of this game, and obviously it appeals to some people and not to others.

Personally I prefer the design of something like the Binding of Isaac, where a single mistake or bad luck situation is unlikely to immediately kill you. It's still hard, but it lets you scrape through to a comeback more often. Which is fun!

@honkalot @hansolol The laser from the diamond applies tick damage. Touching it ends your run.

I am kind of amazed people that enjoyed BOI are getting as frusturated as they are with this. It's the same general idea with more of the outcome based on your skill rather than what items dropped.

@sdoots: I see, in that case I've probably dodged out during their charge-up phase.

@mikachops: Speaking of mastering character specific abilities, is Eyes the Dan Hibiki of the game? I feel like I get absolutely no meaningful advantage from either of his abilities, with or without Throne Butt.

On one of their development streams Jan Willem made an offhand comment like "Nuclear Throne is about doing your best with the shit you're given." and I remember thinking that it was actually pretty cool they had thought about the meaning of the game in that way. I'm not saying this makes it inherently successful or a good game (although I love it), but it seemed to indicate that the occasional feeling of getting screwed by rng is intended.

I can totally empathize with your frustration, getting into NT was rough for me too. The thing I think this game does really successfully, though, is providing you with the tools and information to mitigate bullshit deaths. You eventually start doing things subconsciously that prevent stupid deaths from you early time with the game... like leaving one weak enemy in a safe area to kill last, holding off on explosive weapons until you have boiling skin, and learning not to be lured into danger by pickups. Also, getting a solid idea for the general value of mutations helps a lot. I looked around the NT community for this and learned some general build order stuff that made the game much more fun pretty immediately.

@soulreaverm: I agree 100%. Just to say that a feature of the genre is common or even expected doesn't automatically mean that feature or decision is fun for everyone, but in this case it's absolutely what they wanted to do with the design of this game, and it's kind of a take it or leave it prospect.

I like Isaac more myself (for more reasons than just this), but I respect Nuclear Throne for taking the hard as nails approach to unforgiving game design, and wouldn't wish for them to change it, much in the same way I wouldn't ask From Software to get rid of the stunlocking or soul loss in Dark Souls.

From what I've been reading, it looks like he's got some of the most potential of the entire cast. His telekinesis pulls bullets and enemies towards him, which sounds AWFUL, but if you are using a melee weapon, that means you can just smack that stuff back/out of existence that much faster.

Also, one of his ultra mutations makes him passively push enemies away, so he doesn't have to worry about melee attackers anymore.

@sdoots: He pushes bullets away, actually. It's quite slight but can be just enough to tip the scales. It's particularly useful against scorpions in the desert, which aren't that difficult but can be really annoying and slow you down when you don't want to be. I don't know for sure, but I imagine a build with eyes, based around mutations that cause a lot of pickup drops (rather than straight up adding ammo and health) might be pretty good?

@onekillwonder_: Assassins only deal 5 damage, and usually lay idly in wait for you, giving plenty of time to notice them. If they sneak up on you, you're probably playing too fast and loose. The only 3 things that can one-hit-kill you on the first playthrough of the game are Big Bandit's charge, touching an orange crystal, and standing in a large explosion. The game doesn't expect you to be able to beat every enemy on your first encounter, just to learn what patterns they have so you wont fall for the same trick twice. The one cause of death I find cheap is Lil' Hunter's death animation, which is extremely unpredictable and still gets me now and again. You basically have to plan around it, clearing one room to hide in and another to fight him from. Any other explosion can be easily avoided. Crystal's Shield reflects projectiles, which is the source of most damage enemies deal outside of the transition areas.

@sdoots: Enemies are pulled, projectiles are pushed. This makes him one of the most potent melee fighters in the game, knocking back bullets and closing gaps quickly. With Euphoria, basically any enemy projectile can be casually sidestepped even at close range.

@squashysquish: Lil' Hunter is just an asshole.

@bisonhero: Fact.

I played maybe 3 hours today and in my furthest run beat big dog and literally died 0,25 seconds later because the screen froze from his explosion and I couldn't move out of the way of a spray of bullets. Hope they're adressing some things with this game. Menus lag quite a bit on PS4 as well.

But, air horn

My biggest gripe with the game is simply a lack of variety. Unlike the BoI where every run feels pretty different from the next this game just feels so samey. Same enemies, same bosses, small selection of mutations, it just makes every run feel so similar. I absolutely love the fast twitch gameplay but after beating the throne a day after buying it I don't really have much of a desire to go back.

Did you do any looping at all or continue after that? Reaching the throne isn't the end.

@mike: no I didn't but I'm just not feeling that desire to do any of that, especially if it's all our mostly the same stuff just harder.

There are new bosses and crazier weapons when you loop. But I get you, the variation of something like Binding of Isaac is simply not what this game does.

@citizencoffeecake said:

I think it continues to be weird that people compare the game to Binding of Isaac at all. The dual joystick gameplay controls and feels way different. The way there are secret interlude levels along the way (2-?, 3-?, etc.) is more like Spelunky (the black market, etc.). The number of possible items and upgrades in Spelunky and Nuclear Throne are much closer than the hundreds of possible items and upgrades in Binding of Isaac. The fact that the entire level is one interconnected whole where shit can come and find you is a common element of both games, whereas BoI is very explicitly sectioned off like Zelda.

@hells: yep once i got the flame shotty and the sticky toxic gun things really started clicking for me and chaos ensued