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    Sony Pushes Back on Credit Card Speculation, Clarifies Password "Encryption" [Updated]

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    patrickklepek

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    Edited By patrickklepek
    Update: This story has been edited to reflect that roughly 10 million credit cards were, in fact, exposed. It's unclear if the details were actually obtained, however.

    --

    It's little surprise many of the 77 million users affected by the security breach of PlayStation Network continue to be skeptical of Sony's comments, despite it holding an all-hands-on-deck press conference in Japan over the weekend. The company took to the PlayStation Blog today to further address issues.

    The fate of everyone's credit card information remains the thorniest issue. Sony admitted at its press conference roughly 10 million credit cards were exposed--a significant number. A Friday report filed by The New York Times also stoked the flames. The publication spoke to several security analysts, who said there was chatter on known hacker boards of a database containing the information 2.2 million PSN users--credit card details included. The hackers alleged they offered the database back to Sony, too..

    "One report indicated that a group tried to sell millions of credit card numbers back to Sony," said senior director of corporate communications and social media Patrick Seybold. "To my knowledge there is no truth to this report of a list, or that Sony was offered an opportunity to purchase the list."

    No Caption Provided

    Eyebrows were also raised over Sony's description of stored PSN passwords. Encrypted? Not encrypted? Sony described the passwords as unencrypted, says the company, because they weren't. Rather, the passwords were accessed through a cryptographic hash function and not stored in cleartext.

    Does that sound like gobbledygook? Sony provided a few links (number one, number two) with details.

    "We continue to work with law enforcement and forensic experts to identify the criminals behind the attack," added Seybold. "Once again, we apologize for causing users concern over this matter."

    Some aspects of PSN are expected to come back online this week, trophies and cloud saves intact.    
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    patrickklepek

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    #1  Edited By patrickklepek
    Update: This story has been edited to reflect that roughly 10 million credit cards were, in fact, exposed. It's unclear if the details were actually obtained, however.

    --

    It's little surprise many of the 77 million users affected by the security breach of PlayStation Network continue to be skeptical of Sony's comments, despite it holding an all-hands-on-deck press conference in Japan over the weekend. The company took to the PlayStation Blog today to further address issues.

    The fate of everyone's credit card information remains the thorniest issue. Sony admitted at its press conference roughly 10 million credit cards were exposed--a significant number. A Friday report filed by The New York Times also stoked the flames. The publication spoke to several security analysts, who said there was chatter on known hacker boards of a database containing the information 2.2 million PSN users--credit card details included. The hackers alleged they offered the database back to Sony, too..

    "One report indicated that a group tried to sell millions of credit card numbers back to Sony," said senior director of corporate communications and social media Patrick Seybold. "To my knowledge there is no truth to this report of a list, or that Sony was offered an opportunity to purchase the list."

    No Caption Provided

    Eyebrows were also raised over Sony's description of stored PSN passwords. Encrypted? Not encrypted? Sony described the passwords as unencrypted, says the company, because they weren't. Rather, the passwords were accessed through a cryptographic hash function and not stored in cleartext.

    Does that sound like gobbledygook? Sony provided a few links (number one, number two) with details.

    "We continue to work with law enforcement and forensic experts to identify the criminals behind the attack," added Seybold. "Once again, we apologize for causing users concern over this matter."

    Some aspects of PSN are expected to come back online this week, trophies and cloud saves intact.    
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    deactivated-57beb9d651361

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    Considering I've been having some sketchy goings on with my card (not that they're even remotely connected), it's good to hear they're trying their best to rectify it.

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    MordeaniisChaos

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    #3  Edited By MordeaniisChaos

    Yay for no more 404

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    AmishTechSupport

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    #4  Edited By AmishTechSupport

    Oh, Sony.

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    benjaebe

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    #5  Edited By benjaebe

    Glad they're keeping us updated.

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    Commisar123

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    #6  Edited By Commisar123

    So what the hell does that even mean?

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    winsord

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    #7  Edited By winsord

    Credit card numbers were probably not taken; I'd assume they were 128-bit encrypted like all e-financing.

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    Jeffsekai

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    #8  Edited By Jeffsekai

    cool

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    ApolloBob

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    #9  Edited By ApolloBob

    Seybold later went on to say "Hey how about that Bin Laden thing - that's news right?  Who's that behind you?" before running out of the room.

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    tourgen

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    #10  Edited By tourgen

    any mention anywhere of what hashing function they used on the passwords?

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    golddeathmonkey

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    #11  Edited By golddeathmonkey

    smooth move hoover

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    superscott597

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    #12  Edited By superscott597

    I just want to play some Demon's Souls without the stupid connection error message.

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    nintendoeats

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    #13  Edited By nintendoeats

    I'm actually kind of OK with how they are handling things now. It's just that they keep proving that they are incompetent at security. I have trouble forgiving that.

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    BradBrains

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    #14  Edited By BradBrains

    So.....many....psn....articles....

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    SeriouslyNow

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    #15  Edited By SeriouslyNow
    @Winsord said:
    " Credit card numbers were probably not taken; I'd assume they were 128-bit encrypted like all e-financing. "
    You mean like we all assumed their PS3 encryption random seed was random when it wasn't random at all?  I think it's best to assume nothing or at the very least, the worst.
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    QKT

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    #16  Edited By QKT

    if they handled it well in the first place they could have said this from the start.

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    matiaz_tapia

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    #17  Edited By matiaz_tapia

     A report of a previous report about rumors about speculation in a forum from an outside report about a forum report.

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    ReyGitano

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    #18  Edited By ReyGitano
    @SeriouslyNow said:
    " @Winsord said:
    " Credit card numbers were probably not taken; I'd assume they were 128-bit encrypted like all e-financing. "
    You mean like we all assumed their PS3 encryption random seed was random when it wasn't random at all?  I think it's best to assume nothing or at the very least, the worst. "
    I feel like even Sony isn't sure what they were doing anymore, and I'm starting to trust news from elsewhere more than news from Sony, which isn't a good policy to have.
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    Billychu

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    #19  Edited By Billychu

    There's absolutely no way they didn't use 128-bit encryption.  Your CC info is safe.

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    Winternet

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    #20  Edited By Winternet

    So many Sony news.

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    Legend

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    #21  Edited By Legend
    @Darkstalker said:
    " So.....many....psn....articles.... "
    Yeah, I say make them stop until we get some real news. I don't feel any more informed after reading these articles tbh.I know Sony is to blame for the lack of real news, but that doesn't mean we need new articles every day for every little tidbit they "announce".
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    Goldanas

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    #22  Edited By Goldanas
    @Matiaz_Tapia said:
    "  A report of a previous report about rumors about speculation in a forum from an outside report about a forum report. "
    This.

    When legitimate news sources start taking internet forums posts with no proof and actual fallacies embedded in the posts for hard evidence, it's no wonder everyone is up in a scare.

    Articles that post a link to their source do not make the article or even the source credible. Hell, I wrote papers with dozens of bullshit sources in college that had more credibility than any of these news articles.

    It's a sad damn day when the press releases straight from the corporation that fucked up, itself, are more accurate than the media's, whose only job is to report accurately.

    I really hate reading all this sensationalism, even more than the prospect that my information was compromised.

    Can we please not post this shit anymore until we have some facts, please?
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    Foggen

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    #23  Edited By Foggen
    @Commisar123:  It means that the hackers don't actually have your password if it is unlikely to be guessed.  Basically when you sign on your password is passed through an algorithm and comes out in a "hashed" form.  Sony kept the hash and not your password.  The hackers can still generate hashes based on guesses (automated, I am sure) and then figure out the passwords based on that, but a reasonably secure password should hold up against that pretty well.  The ultimate result is that you will have enough time to make that password irrelevant on the outside chance that they figure out what it was.
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    dangeRUSS04

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    #24  Edited By dangeRUSS04
    @VelociraptorBill: 
    this is sony you are talking about though
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    garrydh

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    #25  Edited By garrydh

    Hmm, the more I hear the more it sounds like they were doing a lot of the right things at the back-end in terms of storage.  Obviously not so much in terms of actually keeping that stored data secure!

    Based on this new info I'm slightly more optimistic about the usefulness of the data to the potential bad guys.  Identity theft is still a possibility but if Sony's statements are true they must be lacking some of the data that would make it even easier.  Phishing and spamming are the two most likely things now and chances are that's something people either deal with or fall for on a regular basis anyway!

    The key remaining things for me will be the hashing function used, whether or not the hashes have been salted to prevent rainbow table attacks, and, of course, how the data was obtained.

    And FWIW, I think kudos are due to Giant Bomb and Patrick in particular for the level-headed coverage of this whole story.  While some news outlets spread thin details over multiple stories or engaged in fear-mongering Giant Bomb have kept the signal to noise ratio high.  And I for one am grateful!

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    rmanthorp

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    #26  Edited By rmanthorp  Moderator

    I'm really enjoying the all the updates no matter what people are saying. Thanks for keeping me on the pulse dude I mean it is SUCH a huge event it's like basically a quarter of the industry completely fucked. I just hope it all works out.

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    FiZi

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    #27  Edited By FiZi
    @tourgen:  5 bucks says MD5 :)
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    ruffedgz

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    #28  Edited By ruffedgz

    I am happy to hear more about it. Granted, it's still not good news but better then some of the other articles.

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    Scarabus

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    #29  Edited By Scarabus

    Even if Sony had evidence that my credit card information was safe I still can't trust that card anymore so I decided to cancel it today and order a new card. With that, I immediately stopped caring about this whole thing.

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    the8bitNacho

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    #30  Edited By the8bitNacho

    It's good to know that they're staying vigilant over this whole incident. The internal morale at Sony can't be all that strong right now. But truthfully people aren't going to stop being "spooked" until there's a good amount of evidence that credit cards weren't exposed. There isn't a lot of comfort to be had from the idea that the simply don'tknow if the breach went that deep.

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    Shrimp

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    #31  Edited By Shrimp

    Having had to cancel my credit card today, and now try to clear up $1300-odd of fraudulent activity on my account, I'm certain that at lease some credit card data is floating around out there and in use.

    In my many many years of using the same credit card online, I have never once experienced anything like this. Suddenly my account is compromised now? That is way too coincidental to my liking.

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    Cirdain

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    #32  Edited By Cirdain
    @Scarabus said:
    " Even if Sony had evidence that my credit card information was safe I still can't trust that card anymore so I decided to cancel it today and order a new card. With that, I immediately stopped caring about this whole thing. "
    life right there
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    Example1013

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    #33  Edited By Example1013
    @Shrimp said:
    " Having had to cancel my credit card today, and now try to clear up $1300-odd of fraudulent activity on my account, I'm under no illusions that at lease some credit card data is floating around out there and in use.In my many many years of using the same credit card online, I have never once experienced anything like this. Suddenly my account is compromised now? That is way too coincidental to my liking. "
    My parents have had their CC data stolen multiple times. My dad never uses CCs online, and my mom is extremely computer literate, and always makes sure that info is kept with the highest safety. They still managed to get that shit stolen, even once earlier this year.

    Sony already said that the hackers didn't get the CC security codes, meaning they couldn't have purchased anything online without guessing yours. And while that's possible (assuming yours is 3 digits like mine is), it's not all that likely.

    Also, just out of curiosity, did you follow the steps Sony helpfully posted on how to make sure no one could run wild with your CC number, just in case?
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    THRICE

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    #34  Edited By THRICE

    Why has nobody in the media called bullshit on The New York Times writing articles based on message board  posts and treating them as verifiable proof? I expect this crap from Fox News but the Times I thought had more integrity. Then again they did just lock away the majority of their articles behind asinine subscriptions so who knows.

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    Shrimp

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    #35  Edited By Shrimp
    @example1013 said:
    Also, just out of curiosity, did you follow the steps Sony helpfully posted on how to make sure no one could run wild with your CC number, just in case?
    All their information pertained to US institutions and fraud hotline type things. None of which is of any use to me in South Africa, nor do my bank give enough of a shit to help me.
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    p_p_o_d

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    #36  Edited By p_p_o_d

    Good that Sony is trying to fight some of the FUD kotaku (and others) are spreading.  


    Heck one of Kotaku's headline stories today was titles "Sony announces 10 million credit cards stolen".    A wee bit sensationalist and kind of totally a lie.  
    With Gawkers history of user leaks,  shit security and after being blacklisted once already by sony you would think they would be a bit more careful when posting bullshit and calling it news but with there page views in the crapper since the redesign they gotta get those extra hits somehow.


    Cant wait for PSN to be back up and we can move on and have jokes on the big gaming news blogs every time Sony announce anything PSN related.






     


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    BradBrains

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    #37  Edited By BradBrains
    @Legend
    @Darkstalker said:
    " So.....many....psn....articles.... "
    Yeah, I say make them stop until we get some real news. I don't feel any more informed after reading these articles tbh.I know Sony is to blame for the lack of real news, but that doesn't mean we need new articles every day for every little tidbit they "announce".
    Yea. I mean its not just giantbomb but all websites neeed to stop. plus its ju as t another excuse for people to say fuck sony and then the same people to retort with the same comments.

    I just want psn up so we can all move on.
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    Trevion

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    #38  Edited By Trevion

    Isn't it a bit odd to first announce that the passwords were unencrypted, leaving everyone to think they were stolen, then announce they'd been hashed?  Assuming they used a reasonable hash function, that's honestly more reassuring than if they'd simply been encrypted.   Sony seems to have gone out of their way to stoke panic---how does this make sense?

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    Mechabolic

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    #39  Edited By Mechabolic

    From what I heard, the only information that was passed in cleartext was the ones with CFW.  In order for them to gain access to PSN, they had to bypass certain parts of PSN's infrastructure including some SSL layer servers.  That's just what i've heard down the grapevine so it's still speculation until Sony shows the world it's audits.

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    X19

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    #40  Edited By X19

    Just let me play one 20 minute match of UC2 multiplayer. Playing the SP on fast mode with the sniper rifle just isn't the same.

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    Example1013

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    #41  Edited By Example1013
    @Shrimp said:
    " @example1013 said:
    Also, just out of curiosity, did you follow the steps Sony helpfully posted on how to make sure no one could run wild with your CC number, just in case?
    All their information pertained to US institutions and fraud hotline type things. None of which is of any use to me in South Africa, nor do my bank give enough of a shit to help me. "
    Jeez. You have my sympathies, then.
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    craigbo180

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    #42  Edited By craigbo180
    @Darkstalker: It's kind of big news.
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    Shootmaimkill

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    #43  Edited By Shootmaimkill

    I'm ready for Sony to bring me back online already.

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    Creme

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    #44  Edited By Creme

    Bin Laden's dead, so PSN should resurface soon. This was totally terrorist work.

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    winsord

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    #45  Edited By winsord
    @SeriouslyNow: They stated the credit card information was actually encrypted already, unlike the other information. If it's encrypted at all, and it has to do with credit cards, I'd be very surprised to find it was not 128-bit encryption.
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    TigerDX

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    #46  Edited By TigerDX

    If the passwords are hashed and not securely salted, it's almost just as vulnerable. If your password exists on a rainbow table somewhere, then you probably should change it anyway.

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    shenstra

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    #47  Edited By shenstra

    @PatrickKlepek: Do you have, or can you get, any information on whether those 10 million credit cards are in fact all credit cards whose information was stored on PSN? If you consider that there were some 77 million PSN accounts, which most likely includes forgotten accounts,  extra accounts (Japanese + American + European for the different stores), inactive accounts, accounts owned by people who don't buy stuff online and accounts owned by people who don't have/use credit cards (like most of Europe), 10 million sounds like an awful lot.
    As for the password encryption thing, it's a strange technicality to get hung up on. Nobody would have blamed them if they'd said the passwords were in fact encrypted. Hashing is essentially a one-way form of encryption. Either way, the passwords aren't truly safe once hackers have access to the entire database. Anything that's encrypted can also be decrypted and once you have a huge list of hashes, it's fairly easy to generate passwords with the same hashes. The best we can hope for is that Sony salted the passwords and used a decent hashing method, but something tells me they used unsalted md5 hashes like most of the world, meaning everyone needs to act as if the passwords were actually leaked in their original plain text form.


    @TigerDX: Even if your password is obscure, I'd consider it unsafe. They have enough password hashes that they can use rainbow tables to determine the hashing function that was used and most likely generate passwords for all the hashes. And when people want to safely salt passwords, they often generate unique salt for each user and store the salt next to the hash, which isn't all that helpful once someone has access to the database. We'd have to hope they use a magic word to salt the passwords.
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    ultraman324

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    #48  Edited By ultraman324

    Can someone tell me where this update to the article comes from. Because as far as I know Sony at no point admitted that. They said that out of the 77 million accounts only 10 million had CC attached

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    Kyle

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    #49  Edited By Kyle
    @Darkstalker said:

    " @Legend

    @Darkstalker said:
    " So.....many....psn....articles.... "
    Yeah, I say make them stop until we get some real news. I don't feel any more informed after reading these articles tbh.I know Sony is to blame for the lack of real news, but that doesn't mean we need new articles every day for every little tidbit they "announce".
    Yea. I mean its not just giantbomb but all websites neeed to stop. plus its ju as t another excuse for people to say fuck sony and then the same people to retort with the same comments. I just want psn up so we can all move on. "
    I would absolutely agree in any other circumstance, but I feel that the fact that this involves people personal and credit card information makes it's a special exception. 
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    tourgen

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    #50  Edited By tourgen
    @FiZi said:
    " @tourgen:  5 bucks says MD5 :) "
    yeah you are probably right.  Hopefully not but .. I just assumed the worst and made sure I didn't have any similar passwords.

    Sony isn't helping themselves by slowly releasing bits of bad news every few days.  They should just come out with everything now and deal with it all at once.

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