Giant Bombcast 715: Non Fungible Tree

Videos coming soon!

Alternate podcast titles were:

• Suburban Crimes
• Dumb Crime
• Shithouserie
• Quarter MAG
• Classic Delaware
• Funge a Tree
• Straddle the Toilet

The joke about Jeff going on Minmaxx, followed by slight silence then laughter felt ominous.

I'm tired of the "Deathloop is too handholdy" discussion. Arkane designs their games in such a way so the player can initially and eventually tweak all the parts to suit their playstyle. The critical path of the game is handholdy, but only if the player decides not to go a more agent way of approaching the loop and the order of the missions. You can both not choose any objectives and follow what the game highlights for you and you can choose the lead and follow it either by what the game suggest or what you think should be the next move. The inclusion of waypoints doesn't make the game more handholdy unless you set yourself to follow the marker. Dishonored 2 had waypoints, Prey had waypoints. The game explicitly sets itself as a player-agency friendly game, and it's the player who calls the shots in moments like this. Same goes for "the lack of the loop concept realisation" and "time not flowing". First is easily observed through the critical path and is richer through the exploration & side activities, puzzles (which rewards the type of player willing to explore). Second wouldn't suit Arkane's style of approaching a level as a playable space (the always hurrying clock wouldn't allow for both deep and rich levels and would discourage the player from engaging with what the level has to offer). And it is very player-specific. Some games target specific audience and this audience would be rewarded more. Like even the way the game tells you the contents of a certain note, audiolog, dialogue or discovery in a shortened version is just a way to make things optional. If you're into reading – go ahead, read everything and then still get a notification just so you know for sure, what's important in there. If you're not bothered with doing so, just read the shortened version or sometimes don't at all – just follow the waypoint. But don't say later that the game is too handholdy.

I can understand people not liking Deathloop's story or plot because it has a very spicific way of telling it, which is for sure not the most digestible or appealing. It has more lore, worldbuilding, backstory than the other narrative elements, which aren't even conveyed through constant cinematics or dialogue. It's either conversations around locations, environmental storytelling, audiologs, notes or emails. Not the most common way to approach the main story, but first it's sort-a detective & puzzle game and second is that it's probably just not for you.

Also don't get the HITMAN differences outside being able to trick targets into something in different ways (which can only be done with Alexis mid mission and with other visionaries through the critical path). Just like in HITMAN you can kill some targets in a matter of seconds, but you probably wouldn't be able to for the first few times. Plus the levels are there not be completely skipped but to be explored. And Hitman also hold the hand of the players who CHOOSE to be hand held by the game with it's system similar to leads from DEATHLOOP.

The dialogues, the performances and worldbuilding are shallow on the surface when you're not exploring or piecing the pieces the game doesn't tell you yourself. The game wants you to "work" and do some detective work. And whether you see the results or not is only telling of the type of approach you've chosen.

And why is it 2021 and people interpret abrupt and semi-open endings as bad endings? There's a reason it's that way and there's a reason the ending is a problem mostly only for people who are rushing through the game or not paying attention to what the game tells the player through optional things. It's not very emotional, I agree, but just like Prey's ending it's not bad and nihilistically rewards player's involvement.

Big Live Live Show is back

I played some cricket in (American) college with mostly South Asian classmates. There were way more Americans playing quidditch (ca. 2010). @dannyodwyer

On the subject of stoned gaming experiences: One of the first times I ever got really high, shortly after starting my first term at University, I went back to my room and put on Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door and got to a section where Mario is investigating a crime of some sort at a wrestling arena and it is bar none the most scared I have ever been playing a video game. The atmosphere of it just really freaked me out in a major way.

I had to take an ethics class at tech bro college. It was one of the final classes to get an engineering degree.

I played Blitzball in college! Sure it was called “water polo”, but we threw a weird ball and refused to use the third dimension of the playing field, just like the Besaid Aurochs!

Also we lost a lot.

Quidditch is stupid as shit. I don't care how big of a HP fan you are. If you are over 12-years-old then just stop yourself. Playing Quidditch is the LEAST cool "sport" that has existed or will ever exist.

Danny: "There are four or five different baddies-"

Jan: 👀👀👀👀👀

I'm pretty sure at least a portion of those tech dudes working on the Apple Airtags actually thought of the ramifications and tried to warn the lead designers, suits and bean counters and they were promptly ignored

The story in the new Halo isn't very good? Weird.

As an ageing curmudgeon, boy did I enjoy that assault on real life quidditch.

The irony of a group of people who do a podcast about video games, play pokemon, spend A LOT on keyboards and pinball machines, and go down the hole of hardware emulators(I too do most of those things)...shitting on people running around having a good time playing a made up game is wild lol

PSA for anyone playing Inscryption (because Jan, Danny, and Bakalar said a bunch of vague things): none of the buttons in the options menus are fake. If a button says “reset save” or “delete save” or whatever, it will do just that, and not in a fun metanarrative way.

Jeff seemed legitimately bothered/pissed by people enjoying their college quidditch games. Maybe he was joking but it didn't feel like it.

Why, Jeff? Just let people have their fun, dude. Nerd superiority is always a nonsensical endeavor.

100%

@csl316: I understand the repulsion. Everyone has their own line, but I think there is a line of fandom gone to far.

If I can speak for myself (and possibly cover where Jeff is coming from): if you want to keep watching/reading Harry Potter or Star Trek or whatever into your adult life and you enjoy the stories, go right ahead. But I think bringing fantasy activities into a real world setting can strike people as a little much. I lump “playing Quidditch” in with like “getting way into LARPing” or “spending dozens of hours learning Klingon” or the like.

If you reach that level, now your interest in a certain series isn’t contained to rewatching/rereading/replaying that series or following the new entries, but you’ve expanded to learning this new activity that nobody would care about except other people into that fandom, and it starts feeling a little insular.

I can't BELIEVE they talked about planting trees and watching them grow in game and nobody mentioned Fable!

@bisonhero: So what, though? Why does it bother you?

Furries can be insular, fantasy football fans, metal fans, cosplayers. It's ok to like stuff that other people think is wierd. Hate to break it to you, but there are people that think watching other people play video games is silly. WE'RE insular. Would you want someone with no stake in this hobby calling you a loser?

Sounds like if someone crosses your arbitrary line of what's acceptable, it's ok to talk bad about them. And that's not the case.

@csl316: I am an advocate that all hobbies should be treated equally and anyone should be able to talk smack about that hobby whenever they want.

Even the nerdiest of nerdiest pursuits are a step above quidditch players. Quidditch players have to lay down their coats on puddles so people who collect rocks rightly do not have to get their shoes wet.

@csl316 said:

It's because a group regularly plays quidditch outside his house and makes enough noise he can't hear the sounds of his keyboards.

Some of the lads on GB are into wrestling which is like professional LARPing. :P

Heh. Yeah . . .

Could we maybe just skip forward until when the Ubisoft offices get raided by the feds over the huge amounts of drug money that's been laundered through their sketchy virtual trading card market?

NFTs are so depressing is what I'm trying to say.

I was surprised when @jeff mentioned PlayStation Plus prices increasing recently and thought I missed the news. I looked into it and the last price increase was more than 5 years ago. Maybe Jeff considers that recent, though, but it threw me off.

Have they talked about what they're doing for GOTY this year? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know if I've heard them mention it yet.

Sorry if they said anything about it in this podcast, I listen during work and miss a lot of stuff.

@csl316: If you think Jeff lightly joking about college students running around with broomsticks was over the line then you have some THIN ass skin.

@smclin: Ok, if you say so.

"These fucking quidditch losers. Get a fucking life, idiots. What the fuck is wrong with you. Fuck off." Yeah, light joke. If I posted that in the forums I'd be banned. And rightfully so.

Does that Keeps hair treatment work? I might try it.

Everyone talking about quidditch, I'm still processing how they low key defended Take-Two for their bully copyright tactics. Just because something is "commonly done" doesn't mean it's right.

@av_gamer: I'd say it's baffling considering the attitude this site has had the last decade, but this is fully on-brand for 2021 GB.

LOVING Super Auto Pets. New pets added today!

I love Blitzball. I spent a March break once just playing Blitzball. Good times.

@av_gamer: In what way exactly did they "defend" Take Two? The whole segment was about it was fucking dumb that they were suing shit like axe throwing places. Jess made a completely logical argument about why It Takes Two and Take Two don't have anything to do with each other. Danny and Jeff acknowledging that unfortunately this is super common because it is how the stupid copyright laws are written is a far cry from endorsing the behavior. Simply explaining why this shit happens is not the same as defending it.

GB seems to be getting pushy about GamePass recently... it's kind of weird. I'd rather not sign up for yet another subscription service. But I also rarely buy/play games until they're on sale (more or less) and have no interest in Halo Infinite anyways, so... *shrug* not in the target audience for it.

Pretty sure Ren'Py is pronounced ren-pie, not ren-pee. Because it's based in Python. I made that mistake too, and a friend pointed it out to me.

Jan has had multiple issues with save files, that I think some self-reflection is required... there comes a point where it might not be the game's fault.

@andreymagnus: So is the argument you're trying to make that "if you don't want a handholdy experience, don't read any of the prompts the game surfaces to you or the quest objectives"? Because that seems like a ridiculous take.

Deus Ex is smart about just being like "Here is where you need to get to, now go" and even the Dishonored games were very good about that. They told you the end goal and let you draw the line between A and B however you like.

Deathloop provides very little agency to the players to actually complete the objectives how they want. There is 1 "perfect day" to kill all the visionaries and the game spells out that perfect day very clearly. And there is a very set path of how you discover all the things that get you to that perfect day. You can complete those in different orders, but the steps are always gonna be the same.

I think Deathloop is a good game, but there was so much potential there that I feel like they never lived up to, especially considering the developers making the game.

As someone on the opposite end, having spent around 30€ on my Game Pass subscription this year (and still have it run until March next year) and saving over 350€ on the digital games I played at launch and getting an identical experience to if I had spent money on those games individually, I would probably be surprised if they didn't bring up Game Pass frequently.

My only problem with game pass is the same as most streaming services which is: it doesn't have everything (yet anyway). Say I wanted an open world game, ehhh pretty much only has bethesda games I've already played (technically now Halo Infinite counts towards it).

I'm definitely the sort who has < 30 minutes played on most of my steam games and I'm likely going to take the 1 dollar trial on christmas break. But I get the feeling I'm going to get into the common netflix situation of not quite finding what I'm looking for on certain bored nights. Oldschool rentals were better because they had just about every game.

@photomic: It's not that you don't need to read the prompts or follow what the game presents as the next objective, it's that you don't have to. Sure, choosing that path of just following one automatically highlighted lead after the other would feel handholdy, but why would one complain about it if it is an option. This being an option the game explicitly states during the tutorial. And not the option of ignoring it all. It's the option of craving your own way through these leads. If you're a keen explorerer who Arkane are targeting as their audience, during the tutorial that makes you visit 3/4 maps in different times of day, you would already find something intriguing to explore later. And the way you choose what hints to discover would totally depend on the way you approach the mechanic of the loop.

You only get the prompt once the knowledge has been discovered. If you're generally into reading and listening to everything you find, you won't need these prompts. But they both remind the player about the important part of what the player read and they are stored in the journal, where while hovering over the titles, you can see that prompt again - which could be very helpful when you return to the hint you discovered loops ago. If you're generally into skipping all that, these prompt might either make you more interested in what's in some of the notes e.g., or they might make the experience of skipping these notes easier.

Just like in almost any ImmSim you have point A and point B and if we're talking about locations - you can approach this path any way you like. If we're talking about the need to complete a series of goals while jumping between maps and time zones - I can't even see how would you design the ability to branch there. And Dishonored shouldn't be a comparison here because Dishonored didn't have anything like that - there was a clear linear level-by-level progression. In Deathloop the inhabitants of the island have set schedules and they are shooting Colt at sight. Although it would be cool if the significant changes in the maps or behaviors were triggered by more of your actions, I don't think it's fair to consider the game not having more of that to be a drawback. That's something that could've been explored more, but it's also not a criticism that is fair for a game that already tries to be so original in many of it's aspects. Arkane didn't even have the budget of Dishonored 2 for that game (which is also the reason there's one final loop without any variations).

The problem for me with the original Deus Ex was exactly the lack of any markers. Although it's cool to stumble upon an unexplored area whilst looking for your objective, it's not fun when you can't locate whatever you're looking for and therefore have to google it. I am a sucker for exploring every nook and cranny, but the rewards for that weren't that useful sometimes.

The "handholdy" aspect here is only telling of what type of player you are. The real problems the game has are lackluster rewards for some things and the reliance on notes. While rewards like lore would satisfy me in the game where you unveil stories bit by bit, I can see there being something more punchy. The same way the reliance on notes if fine by me because unlike Dishonored, where the notes were too long and had too little actual information in them, Deathloop's narrative team chose notes because they provide so much flexibility to the player and because they support the idea of unravelling a tangle of stories.

I'm sure there were also a lot of decisions based on the invasions. And these decisions probably hurt the single-player aspects more and therefore hurt the widest audience of the game. But at least invasions are actually wery well designed (being a rare case) mostly because of how weaved they were in the game's design code during the conceptualisation. There's a reason both Colt's and Julianna's modes occupy the same space in the main menu.

I think the game trying to have more variation did not play well for attracting more players. The way the game presents some elements that have variation in them initially might cause the player to have the expectation bias.

So who farted? There was a sneaky toot on that Sony news chat. Lol

Sign up to the Xbox gamepass trial and play halo!

If you already used the trial, go redeem it AGAIN!

Seriously, I've redeemed that $1 trial like 12 times now. On the same account. They really let you just keep doing it. Turn off auto recurrent billing. I have never paid the real price of gamepass and I've had it for like 2 years.

Hearing Jess's reaction to Deathloop made me feel so relieved. I thought I was the only person having those exact feelings around it. It's really basically not a timeloop game at all.

A year of Gamepass may well cost the same as 3 games but if I buy the games I want I can play them next year or the year after or on my deathbed at the ripe old age of 109 without it costing me anything more. The idea of paying a regular, recurring and potentially unlimited fee to access games does not appeal to me at all, I'd expect for all the same reasons Microsoft/Xbox is pushing it so hard.