Endurance Run: Shenmue - Part 26

Thank you much for doing this ER. Had a good time watching it.

Summer is the break in-between school years. There's probably more legitimate reasons why it's that way, but I'm certain the fact that most people would rather have most of the summer off rather than the winter is a big factor. (We do get a winter break, but it's only a couple weeks.)

Huh. In Aus our breaks are a bit more evenly spread out over the year with less adherence to other external factors. Interesting.

If "shitty motorcycle sequence where nothing even happens" ranks as cool for Dan, I'd love to see what the final boss sequence in Yakuza 4 does for him.

@nicolenomicon: Yeah, as I understand it's that way in Japan and possibly Europe too. Personally I can't imagine only having a few weeks between one school year to the next. Summer Break felt like a necessity to sufficiently unwind between school years.

@josephknows: The voice acting wasn't great, but hardly any game had that much voice acting at the time. There was a lot of dialogue that wasn't shown during this endurance run that explains more of the characters. A lot of people loved the presentation for being cinematic when it was released. Basically, your statements are opinions, some people like the game while others don't.

“I'm afraid that the story will not be concluded with Shenmue 3," Suzuki told us. "After thinking it through, we decided that forcing a conclusion in Shenmue 3 would only make the story feel rushed, and compromise the game as a whole.”

Looks like the Beast Boys are in for a long ride...

I understand it's quite the ordeal to create all of this initially then spoon feeding it to us an episode at a time, but I thought this was awesome. I really enjoyed coming home to another segment of the run. Hope you guys do another sooner than the last endurance run.

Great work!

Never was much of a SEGA person so Shenmue or the fandom surrounding Shenmue was a myth to me. This is very useful.

I can see why many people love this and why many hate this as well. Judging it with today's standards and practices it definitely has issues, but I would probably say that most "older" games do not stand up to today's standards or conventions either so that's to be expected.

I am also sort of with Alex about if Shenmue 3 is really THAT exciting. A classical revenge tale isn't that exciting. The outro with the run of the mill hero of destiny byline also gives me pause, but I am a sucker for story focus game that takes place in modern real world era and there's also hints of it going towards some mystical territory, it would be interesting to see how they tie it all up, but I am still looking at it with caution.

@nicolenomicon: Traditionally, the school year was planned to end at the beginning of summer to allow students to help with the family farm during its busiest season. It's an outdated concept now, but the tradition stuck.

@dagas: The save won't carry over, unfortunately. I played through the European version back in the day using a boot disc, and my save from part one didn't work.

I seriously think the second half of this game could be a steam game called Japanese Forklift Simulator 2016

@monkeyking1969: The problem is mostly Alex. He's negative to a fault. You can see this in the current Symphony of the Night series. Vinny will want to try something, just like while playing Shenmue, and Alex is all "nah". Some games can't be brute forced. You'll have an awful time doing it that way.

Now, do Yakuza

Before this ER I only knew the first few hours of Shenmue and boy am I glad I could watch you guys suffer through it instead of playing it.

Great job guys, I look forward to the sequel!!

When I played the game in 1999, I liked the forklift episodes. And I look forwards to that part of the game in my current replay. I think it resonates a lot because it is one of the few non-fighting parts of the Shenmue that is a 'game'. It is not running around asking questions, it is 'game play'. Rather, enjoyable game play at that. That daily race, the moving of boxes, and the time and goal aspects make the forklift the most 'gamey' part of the game.

As a Yakuza fan, was really curious about Shenmue. Thanks for the ER, i don't think I'd have the stamina to endure it.

@gyoru: spoilers

Time for Shenmue 2 Endurance Run!

In a recent episode, you guys talked about other games/genres that you've missed over the years, and how a full run through of the game like you've done with Shenmue or Life is Strange might not be viable for some titles. If you have other games in mind, perhaps a full playthrough isn't the way to go?

The dynamic of someone who's new to a game doing the playing and someone who's familiar/experienced with it in the peanut gallery has been a pretty good thing for this site; maybe a shorter version of that could work? A single (1-2h) episode of let's say Alex giving Vinny/Dan his thoughts on [X Game one of them has been meaning to get around to for a decade that Alex played way back when] while Vinny/Dan is playing it and giving his early impressions could be intriguing.

I wouldn't have much interest in seeing Dan play through the entirety of Planescape: Torment (or something else if he's played that), but I would like to see him go through the first hour or two while the others make their case for what they thought about the game back when they played it, and how their thoughts on it have changed throughout the years.

Duder, it's over!

So, this game was hot trash but I had a blast watching this ER. I really wanna see a Shenmue 2 ER now.

This was a lot of fun to watch. Thanks to the crew for the Endurance Run, and thanks to @gregalor and @squirrelnacho for the insightful comments about the things we didn't get to see.

Shenmue 2 endurance run? On your mark, almost time to go...

thanks for the run, that was something, can't wait for 2!

You should have listened to Jeff! He was right all along!

@egonvonholz: nah

I had a feeling, Ryo would never make it to Hong Kong in this game. Sadly I was right. Anyways, See you later Space Cowboy, Ryo, Rio, Ryu, Raiyu, Dio, Lyo, Leeyo, Lio.

You're supposed to tap an L on the front of the mouth like the Italians. If it sounds like a hybrid of an R and an L, perfect.

Anyways, I loved that he was renamed to Ryu.

Well, that was quite an... interesting... ride. Thanks Vinny, Alex, and Dan!

@gregalor: jah

How did they know the game was ending??

Now skip over Shenmue 2 and start Yakuza 1.

@egonvonholz: For once in his life he was.

Haha, in all honesty, I'll bet they'll do Shenmue 2. I think Dan is moving to New York after the new year, so maybe some time after that?

I hope they do eventually do Yakuza, so that everyone who wanted it to be The Big Relief can gnash and wail when the guys comment on the PLETHORA of jank in that game. Love both series, but I think you're kidding yourselves if you think it won't be criticized to hell and back, because every single installment of Yakuza has been one or two generations behind in terms of clunkiness. And you can squirm when they never once use a Heat move, it'll be great.

Well now I know what Shenmue is. Not totally sure of my opinion on it. I've gone back and forth throughout the series. I think it's kind of cool, I can see why people are into it. I'm not sure there is enough variety in the gameplay, and I think, there could have been better writing and character development considering that's the main motivation for the game. It was ahead of it's time for sure, and at the time, it was probably impressive. It was definitely ambitious, and that it was made at all is pretty cool.

Anyways, I really enjoyed the series, and I'm definitely in for whatever you guys choose to do next.

@scodiac: I agree that the character development is primitive, but to be fair, they missed most of it. Having that be optional, or not having characters adapt to whether you're maintaining relationships, is something that can be criticized. But when I see comments in here like, "Now I know what Shenmue is," it's hard not to react to that because I'm kind of like, "That wasn't the game I know..."

This was a nice ER but christ what a bad game. I'm really interested by the Yakuza series though, since that really seems like a realisation of what this game tried to do.

Anyway great job. It'll be nice to see what y'all do the next time, whether it's Shenmue 2 or something else.

I think we can all agree that the game really earned that cliffhanger.

Thanks for doing this! I can totally see why Dan liked it so much back in the day; it certainly did push forward and included new things. The actual game, though, booooooooooooooooooooooooooy.

I can appreciate how it began pushing towards the open world game as we know it, but there is nothing worth going back to in this thing. Yikes. 2 would have to be a fundamentally different game to even get half-approval these days.

Sorry for wall of text! If anyone wants my humble totally-expert two cents (and feel free to correct any wrong info), I think I'm more or less middle of the road with this game. Anyone who dismisses this game out-right is either goofing or just refuses to see the good ideas of it, but my superficial opinion is that it has good ideas but misses the execution of many. (I agree their playthrough could be better b/c their assumptions and frame of mind from the get-go were far from what this game was selling, but I also think a good game should allow for this type of play and still feel cohesive in the end. They broke the whole Nozomi line but I think the game should've forced more scenes/events so the end wouldn't feel as wtf-*shrug* as it was for them.) After watching this and reading some of the comments on what could be possible, I can see the beauty and great world-building behind it (the ideas and potential behind the physical game). But I think it's hindered by its pacing, moving in the environment, simple story (more on that), and actually, the main character, and unfortunate things like a way too literal translation, tech limits of having to load almost every shop and a claustrophobic feeling. (And I'm trying to consider the game with respect to that time.) If anything, I think the game is too ahead of its time and too ambitious. As an aside, the game wants to encourage exploring, but it seems the combination of loading into shops, not wanting to experiment b/c it wastes time out of the day and you'll just get the same line from the NPC or the monotonous Japanese "I'm busy" line if it's a stranger in the city are at odds with it. The people in the city need to give you the "I'm busy, can you ask someone else?" or "I can't talk to strangers" to stay true to the Japanese slice-of-life representation and coldness of city-living vs. the closeness of Sakuragaoka, but game-wise almost everyone walking around saying the same plain line actually does more to take me out of the game and notice the AI or the seams instead of immerse me into the world. I don't know if it's cognitive dissonance but the attempt to fill the city with life instead feels like walking among robots and just obstacles in my way. At least in JRPGs NPC chatter is allowed to be varied and add to the world-building b/c they don't have to model Japanese people in a Japanese city.

I've actually played a few hours of this game back when it came out (I was like 17). I was into the weird Sega stuff on the Dreamcast, JP culture, JP/Chinese mythology, tokusatsu, Segata Sanshiro dumbness, so hearing that Hiroshi Fujioka voiced the dad sealed the deal. I remember I really couldn't get into it b/c everything felt like it was fighting me the whole time and the story up to that point was not interesting enough to keep me going. I could read Japanese but still had trouble with places b/c reading the house/shop signs weren't great. I think I have patience for slow-building epics and games that don't hold your hand (like, I remember fumbling my way through Rent-A-Hero No.1 in JP some time after this b/c of again, JP stuff and Segata Sanshiro, but that's a tonally different game), so I guess me and Shenmue just didn't click.

Now that I've seen a hurried play of it and read some of what's possible, I guess I'm more into the systems of it and the world-building than the actual gameplay itself. Like how there's more than one way to get the clue to get the bike. Though I think this game suffers the very Japanese game storytelling problem of "predictable thing that is really apparent and should also be WAY obvious to the game's characters, but having to wait and go through the motions step-by-step in a very methodical, rote (sometimes to the point of soul-crushing) Japanese way". Anyway, I looked up what the original JP of Lan Di was and saw that it was "Blue Emperor" (ironically wearing green robes in game but blue in concept, wth) and represents the Azure Dragon / Seiryu of the 4 Symbols (implying 3 other bosses in this epic and this Niao Sun who hasn't even shown up in a game but will in 3, repping Suzaku and possibly antagonizes Shen Hua like Lan Di with Ryo?) And there's Chi You from mythology. It's why I think it's one of the failings of the translation b/c JP players see Lan Di as "Blue Emperor" which is way more meaningful to me if not sounding cooler, so maybe the localization should've added a line that explained it. It's also perfectly '80s HK Cinema that Ryo goes to Kowloon Walled City in 2, and I made the connection that the "Nine Dragons" password is "Kowloon". So I'm into all the world building implications for the epic, especially when you realize that the name of the series (Shen Tree) is after this girl (Shen Flower) with ancient Chinese mysticism powers whom you don't meet 'til like the end of the 2nd game. But perhaps the story beats should be paced faster or the first half should take fewer steps. (I don't think there's a lack of side stuff to do like other people say, but I think this story is bottom heavy or uneven.) I almost feel like the JP name (Shenmue Chapter 1: Yokosuka) would've tempered my and other people's story expectations better. Because even knowing it was planned as 1 of 16 parts, I finally get just how small of a chunk of the whole planned story it is. I think for what the content of the story is, it should have taken less time to tell it. Because the plot is pretty straight-forward so it becomes ponderous, and Ryo's self-serious straight-laced boyish every hero character compounds the problem.

And I think despite people bringing up Yakuza as kind of the realization of what this game tried to do, the more I see what this series is actually weaving, it wouldn't have ended up like a Yakuza b/c it's occupying a different space. I think this series is really after the Chinese mysticism questing epic tone first with the young man revenge plot as the device. I almost feel like it should be thought of as a stoic Wuxia journey epic thing than the hyper parody feel of a Yakuza.

Just finished this, and the next thing on my watch list for tonight was the next James Bond movie You Only Live Twice, which happens to take place in Japan.

40 ish minutes in Bond visits a Japanese Dock after a boat that is leaving which he must follow. 20 seconds on the dock and he is attacked by a forklift + a group of Japanese dockworkers/gang members.

This was a shocking coincidence. THiS just must be what japanese docks simply are like. That forklift that charged him probably was racing as well. I bet it was Vinny driving.

@squirrelnacho said:

The "poor" voice acting is actually one of the reasons I still kind of appreciate this game... very much in the same way I "appreciate" the voice acting in games like Deadly Premonition or Resident Evil. Sometimes goofy/poor voice acting can add to the overall experience, instead of detracting from it.

I remember Shenmue II also had the same, uh... caliber of voice acting. Glad they got back the guy who plays Ryo for Shenmue III.

This game took me 2 to 3 days to beat... :)

@zaxex: How is it terrible? It was a great game back in 1999...

@gregalor: Yeah, Yakuza is janky as hell, even playing through 5 currently I'm shaking my head at some aspects that are still clunky. I think they'd get along with those games better than Shenmue though.

When you play old games like this, you need to set your mind back in that time period. Obviously this as aged badly, but, back then it did a lot of things we never saw. That said, the voice acting back then was always bad, nothing like we see today or 2005+ Dremcast was pretty much a ps1 with nice graphics, it couldn't do what ps2 could or they never really pushed it. This was the most expensive game of it's time, cuz it had 3 engines, open world, driving and fighting, the first game to do that. All the voices, we never saw that in a game back then. All the extra stuff, arcades, machines... The first game to have quick time events... It was huge. Go try to find a bigger game in 1999... Good Luck.

@gyozilla: I agree with your criticisms, and even so I think you see there's something special about the game, isn't there? You should really play or at least watch Game Trailers run of Shenmue II, it is the fulfillment of many of the epic (in the literary sense) Chinese Kung fu/mysticism threads you have deduced from Shenmue I. In addition there's a lot more action, meaningful characters, and cleaned up gameplay. And yes, the Yakuza comparison is beyond asinine--they couldn't be any more different in terms of what they are going for.

@zaldar: Hey, I think you're referring to my comment from a few vids ago? Yeah, the game could definitely force you to interact with these characters more and present a better case for why you should care about them but I think that's an extremely tricky thing to pull off. Most games fumble this even to this day, especially open-world games. Whereas cutscenes used to be seen as a treat back in the day, nowadays most people dislike having control taken away from them. Maintaining player agency while trying to encourage certain interactions is a real balancing act.

One way to do this would be to tie gameplay rewards to interacting with side characters, like Persona does. In those games, the more you interact and get to know the protagonist's friends, the higher their social link level rises, which confers benefits for the combat system and unlocks special events (cutscenes) around town. Such a system is, I think, easier to pull off in the JRPG format where you can have more "gamey" systems and rewards rather than in an open-world adventure game that is going for realism. The system could still be behind the scenes, I suppose, but to surface it so blatantly kills the mood a game like Shenmue is going for. That said, there is the primitive beginnings of such a system in Shenmue but it isn't obvious to the player. The guy who lends Ryo the motorcycle at the end of the game? That's one of Ryo's close friends Naoyuki, who you see in the picture Ryo keeps in his room. His phone number is in the notebook and you can call him every day to see what's up.

However, in Shenmue you have to manually pick up the phone and dial this number (because its the 80s) rather than just selecting it from a menu. You could do this in a modern game by having the number already stored in the player's cell phone or something but you still can't really force the player to do these things, they have to seek it out on their own. Perhaps if the character that the developer wants to encourage interaction with has a really cool/intriguing intro that makes you wanna hang out with him (like Brucie in GTA IV). Regardless, these things require strong writing that gives each character their own motivations and personality, something that games still suck at, especially when the story you are trying to craft isn't over-the-top but rather a slice-of-life or picaresque tale. Personally, I prefer the hands-off approach of something like Dark Souls and accept that it will alienate some players. On the other hand, Dark Souls is successful because even though players can miss or ignore the story entirely, it doesn't matter ultimately because the main focus of the game lies in it's gameplay. Shenmue, on the other hand, is flawed because the main focus of the game is on immersing the player into it's mundane, everyday world. But if you are the type to explore and immerse yourself into the world of Shenmue, it is still an experience like no other in games that was lightyears ahead of its time.