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Giant Bomb Presents

Giant Bomb Presents: PAX Panel: We’ve Survived the Internet, And So Can You

Cards Against Humanity's Trin Garritano, Sentris developer Samantha Kalman, and Treachery in Beatdown City designer Shawn Allen joined me at PAX Prime to share stories about how to be a good person on the Internet. This feels...appropriate.

Giant Bomb Presents is giantbomb.com's home for interviews, previews, and more.

Sep. 8 2014

Posted by: Patrick

130 Comments

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patrickklepek

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Familyguy1

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Familyguy1 • 

Oh right! Thanks for uploading this!

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Samitoo

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Samitoo • 

@patrickklepek Really enjoyed the talk and getting to meet you guys at Pax! Glad it's going up for more to see.

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T_wester

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T_wester • 

Cool, I was wondering if this was archived at all.

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Draugen

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Edited By Draugen • 

Man, it's sad that there's a need for a panel that teaches people not to behave like monsters.

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sammo21

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sammo21 • 

Thanks for the upload. Going to listen to this when we get home.

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MrMazz

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Edited By MrMazz • 

o goody

EDIT: I must know where this skateboard keyboard kids ET image came from.

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BoZZ0

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MATATAT

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Edited By MATATAT • 

What is that fantastic cover photo from?

EDIT: I FOUND IT

No Caption Provided

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Mike

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Mike  Moderator • 

Anime avatars must be stopped.

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Mister_Snig

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Edited By Mister_Snig • 

@mb said:

Anime avatars must be stopped.

#notallanimeavatars

Thanks for sharing this, Patrick. I'm kinda bummed I didn't go to this panel in person when I had the chance, so it's great that this is going up on the site.

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MattyFTM

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Edited By MattyFTM • 
@mb said:

Anime avatars must be stopped.

You know my avatar is an anime avatar, right?

Shit, you're going to ban me, aren't you?

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notlikelytocare

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I love how Trin states how her "white dude husband" can't understand body image pressure from the society. He can't? Are you kidding? We are told we are supposed to be big and tall, strong and handsome, or forever live a virgin (and those who aren't this are harassed, and made fun of for it). Societal gender rolls are detrimental to BOTH sexes, so please don't try and pretend otherwise.

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FinalDasa

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FinalDasa  Moderator • 

@notlikelytocare: I don't wanna say what I think she meant because I'm not sure. She specifically was talking about a women's sense of beauty and why even a woman's hair can become a bigger issue. I don't think she was saying her husband couldn't understand body issues but rather that he couldn't directly experience what she and other women go through.

Specifically she was talking about how removed he was from that particular issue. He could understand how she experiences it but he can't experience it for himself.

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notlikelytocare

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@finaldasa: With that said, she is also unable to experience what it is like living as him, and dealing with the societal role he was forced into as well. My point is this is pointing out a very one sided argument, and not looking at this from a true, third person, non biased manner. It's almost pandering.

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Mister_Snig

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@fenixstryk: I really don't think both sides are to blame when one side is spewing death threats and other assorted comments causing people to up and leave the industry.

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FinalDasa

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FinalDasa  Moderator • 

@notlikelytocare: I'm not sure if it's pandering. I know that women are, in general, sold a body image and sense of beauty more often than men are.

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notlikelytocare

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notlikelytocare

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MrMazz

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MrMazz • 

@matatat: o man its a scholastic book that makes it even better.

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FinalDasa

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FinalDasa  Moderator • 

@notlikelytocare: No not at the ready. I took a few classes on it in college and have noticed both men and women being sold and told their ideal images. Women are told much more often and in more ways than men.

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thefriend

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Edited By thefriend • 

@mb: Anime avatars are fine!

@mister_snig: I think both parties have been flinging vitriol. It just depends on what info you're looking at. I've seen both sides, and it's bad on both ends. But I think it's easy to see the loud vitriol, when it's drowning out the rational discussion.

What I think we all need to do is settle down, (Both sides) and discuss this stuff with cooler heads. I think we're seeing more of that as the days tick on. Let's all be good people here! But of course I think journalistic ethics is something to look into further.

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PimblyCharles

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Edited By PimblyCharles • 

That bit about the NOPAT chrome extension had me in tears. Well done Patrick.

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notlikelytocare

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@finaldasa: Even if it is true that "they get it more" I don't think that lessens my initial point in any way. It's a very one sided argument. I don't condone harassment, or societal roles, but if we are going to do anything to fix these issues, we have to come together and lift everyone up to the same level, not point out all the "privileges" other people have, and then take away all credibility for it. We need a solid debate, between calm, and professional people, without using buzzwords, slander, hatred, misogyny, misandry, etc. There needs to be a completely impartial moderator, and open, uninterrupted blocks of time to speak their point. Otherwise, this will never truly come to benefit all of us.

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FinalDasa

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FinalDasa  Moderator • 

@notlikelytocare: I agree, there does need to be a larger discussion. But when we're surrounded by those things (harassment, attacks, ect.) we can't move forward. So while you may disagree with Trin (and she's an awesome person btw!) we need to get a nice, safe, place on the internet to have that open, evenly moderated, conversation.

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notlikelytocare

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@finaldasa: Oh yeah, Trin is awesome, I was just pointing out the inconsistencies. But yeah, Twitter is the literal worst place to have any legitimate debate, as is Tumblr. What we need is a live, on video debate with a good moderator, and hope that people are able to step back and look at things outside of their normal mindset. In order to make this work, we ALL have to give a bit up, and learn to appreciate the other side for it's common interests.

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Rzxvc

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Rzxvc • 

How I deal with people being jerks on the internet:

Turn off computer.

Walk outside.

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spoon1234

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spoon1234 • 

Great talk. Thanks for uploading it!

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thefriend

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thefriend • 

@rzxvc: At the very least, just get off twitter. That place is an echo chamber where very little nuanced discussion takes place.

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Rzxvc

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Rzxvc • 

@thefriend: Twitter is probably the worst thing to ever happen to the internet.

It reinforces a mob mentality and ego stroking beyond anything Facebook could ever do.

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scarycrayons

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Women are sold the image of beauty more often than men because they get to enjoy beauty in ways that men typically don't.

"Present yourself in a beautiful way, and you'll get both women and men alike complimenting your appearance, and you'll feel confident and happy about yourselves."

That line of marketing sells, because for the majority of women, it's completely true. I do feel confident and happy when looking attractive! It's a great feeling. Want to smell like strawberries? Sure! Why not? There's shampoo and body wash for that. Want your face to not look all bumpy? Check out this foundation! Oh, and this mascara really brings out your eyes! It's all optional stuff, but it definitely improves how you think about yourself, and makes you proud of how you look.

Men, on the other hand, don't have it quite so easy. "Be beautiful, and women and men will compliment you, and you'll feel happy and confident!" That doesn't really work, because it's just not true-- in fact, I'm pretty sure most people would get pretty angry at suggesting that women should compliment men just because of how they look. A guy walking around in makeup, with shiny hair, pastel coloured short shorts, and smelling of strawberries, doesn't make people compliment them, nor does it make them feel confident when walking around the streets like that.

Instead, marketing goes for the "This razor has a billion blades, you'll feel happier about yourself, because you don't have to waste as much time doing something that doesn't make life any more positive for you" approach, which again, works because it's true.

There's a reason why clothes shopping is more appealing to women than men, and it's not because of forced gender roles or anything like that. It's because more women honestly love and enjoy the idea of looking amazing, and that's less common amongst men, because men don't see the benefits as much as women do.

Source: I am a woman, and I think it's silly to blame things on men when unless they're a professional model, they generally never get to feel sexy or attractive at all in the ways that women do. For women, the 'look normal, or try to keep up with being beautiful' decision is a choice, and being beautiful is more enjoyable. For men, they're stuck in the 'look normal' category. Even attractive men's clothing like suits aren't something that men can typically wear when going out, say, for a walk in the park, or going to the beach.

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notlikelytocare

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@brandondryrock: This attitude only serves to say that both sides have no justification in their argument, and is brazenly passive of the central issues surrounding all this. It does nothing but make you look ignorant to the issues at hand.

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Edited By BaD_KarAte • 

@rzxvc: Twitter has become the megaphone for the angry and self-important.

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MrAWESOME247

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Edited By MrAWESOME247 • 

Great work Patrick and great Panel :-)

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Sweep  Moderator • 

But how do you feel about Techies, though?

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Edited By chrisbob • 

The internet is only going to become a more integral part of the way human beings communicate in the future. The problems that twitter has is a preview of the problems we're going to see later on when we're always connected and available to millions of strangers. The issues of harassment and anger on the internet aren't going to go away because some of you went for a walk.

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Baillie

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Baillie • 

Wasn't this panel supposed to be hosted by Patrick and Zoe Quinn?

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foxmulder

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foxmulder • 

Where is the Chrome extension that blocks me from interacting with people who use the nopat extension?

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Edited By mr_creeper • 
@scarycrayons said:

Women are sold the image of beauty more often than men because they get to enjoy beauty in ways that men typically don't.

"Present yourself in a beautiful way, and you'll get both women and men alike complimenting your appearance, and you'll feel confident and happy about yourselves."

That line of marketing sells, because for the majority of women, it's completely true. I do feel confident and happy when looking attractive! It's a great feeling. Want to smell like strawberries? Sure! Why not? There's shampoo and body wash for that. Want your face to not look all bumpy? Check out this foundation! Oh, and this mascara really brings out your eyes! It's all optional stuff, but it definitely improves how you think about yourself, and makes you proud of how you look.

Men, on the other hand, don't have it quite so easy. "Be beautiful, and women and men will compliment you, and you'll feel happy and confident!" That doesn't really work, because it's just not true-- in fact, I'm pretty sure most people would get pretty angry at suggesting that women should compliment men just because of how they look. A guy walking around in makeup, with shiny hair, pastel coloured short shorts, and smelling of strawberries, doesn't make people compliment them, nor does it make them feel confident when walking around the streets like that.

Instead, marketing goes for the "This razor has a billion blades, you'll feel happier about yourself, because you don't have to waste as much time doing something that doesn't make life any more positive for you" approach, which again, works because it's true.

There's a reason why clothes shopping is more appealing to women than men, and it's not because of forced gender roles or anything like that. It's because more women honestly love and enjoy the idea of looking amazing, and that's less common amongst men, because men don't see the benefits as much as women do.

Source: I am a woman, and I think it's silly to blame things on men when unless they're a professional model, they generally never get to feel sexy or attractive at all in the ways that women do. For women, the 'look normal, or try to keep up with being beautiful' decision is a choice, and being beautiful is more enjoyable. For men, they're stuck in the 'look normal' category. Even attractive men's clothing like suits aren't something that men can typically wear when going out, say, for a walk in the park, or going to the beach.

Thank you for this great take on this issue.

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MechaMarshmallow

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This was an awesome PAX panel! Samantha Kalman is shaping up to be one of my favorite people in gaming at the moment, it was really enjoyable to hear her guest on the bombcast too. Not sure if I agree with everything Trin said, but that might just be a consequence of explaining some detailed ideas in a very short talk.

Thanks for the upload, @patrickklepek - I'd love to see more like this on Giantbomb. I think it's very important to feature the reasoned and calm discussion and promotion of social justice on sites like these with wide appeal, because so often the most visible voices online are the closed-minded or self-important who I've seen turn a lot of people away from the conversation altogether.

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Edited By Jokers_Wild • 

@scarycrayons: You don't have nearly as much insight into men as you think you do. Most men I know put a lot of stock in their clothing, whether it be a crisp suit, or something more casual, like a fresh pair of Nikes.

Source: am a man who likes to get his Don Draper on.

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brandondryrock

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@notlikelytocare: Sorry I didn't mean to come off as ignorant. I guess what I meant to say in my comment is more along the lines of why do people feel like it is necessary to say hateful things over the internet. I also wasn't specifically applying my comment to the current situation in the gaming community, just more as a general philosophy on the internet.

I'm aware of the situation, and I know that each side does have valid arguments. I am just saddened by all the vitriol being spewed by a small percentage of gamers, on both sides, that is blocking our ability to hold an open conversation that can move our medium forward.

I just don't understand why someone would think it is okay to tell another human being to commit suicide when they do not agree with an opinion. One thing that we forget as internet users is there is a person on the other side of their screen name. You are not talking to a machine, you are talking to a person that has feelings. Until the hate ceases to exist, the gaming community will continue on as is. Sadly I don't see the hate ending anytime soon.

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patrickklepek

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Edited By patrickklepek • 

@baillie said:

Wasn't this panel supposed to be hosted by Patrick and Zoe Quinn?

Nah, that was a mistake on the PAX site. They pasted the same text from PAX East.