The Giant Beastcast: Episode 179

Another week, another infuriating and deeply upsetting story about Ryckert's upbringing

Oh God that Arthur Morgan Metal Gear Bit. I haven't laughed so hard in years. Shame that the "Best of 10 years" thing just came out, because that eclipsed most if not all of them. Oh Boy.

@deccado: what is so upsetting about acknowledging the conditions under which a thing was made and talking about it critically?

@deccado: I don’t think many here are gonna think you’re likable after that little rant.

@deccado: Welcome to Giant Bomb. You know, there is a forum thread here (nearly 300 comments long at this point) in which people are having this very discussion. You may want to check it out. Lots of views are expressed. Some you might even agree with. But this? You're not gonna get anyone to engage with you if you act like this.

@deccado: I should've said you're unlikely to get many people to engage with you in good faith, rather than writing you off for your tone.

Carry on. You seem really heated about this.

@deccado: a) We like great games / we don't want them to work too hard is not necessarily an either/or proposition.

b) Nobody is treating anyone "like children" if your assumption is that adults cannot possibly be exploited in any way, even if they are complicit in it (that's why exploitation works). Also many of them, a wild guess - will like that being talked about.

c) there has been a LOT of talk about Red Dead, here and every other website and podcast. I don't listen to Giant Bomb because they are Objective Vacuums Through Which Information Passes. It's their thoughts, their opinions.

Also on your previous point about "consumer comes first" - I can speak for myself and say that as a consumer these issues are very much of interest to me and factor into my purchasing decisions.

@deccado: ...’not used to people disagreeing with you.’ Someone hasn’t been here long enough to witness Game of the Year discussions.

The Metal Gear bit made me cry while I was doing the dishes, thank you.

Dan could totally have a more extensive garden whenever he buys a house (which is fun and satisfying), but actually being a professional farmer is like...hah yeah like what Jeff said but probably worse too.

@deccado: Really? Them making a concession to have Dream Daddy on their top ten? Goty has always had concessions.

As for why DD got in the top ten, you really making the argument that it’s anything other than Abby and Vinny liking it and being really passionate about it? And just because you think there are thousands of people who share your viewpoint, how do you know it’s thousands, was there a poll?

Additionally, innovation doesn’t guarantee praise, take the Killswitch game for example, and a game’s quality is largely subjective. Which is what goty is, a small group’s subjective ranking and to believe Giantbomb makes it a political or social agenda is ridiculous. But hey, do you boo.

@deccado:"More heated over dinner then this" and "Dream Daddy was a political and social statement! Press/government oversight is unnecessary!" via repeated posting doesn't really square with me to be honest.

I see you haven't really been posting for more than a week. Welcome to the GB podcast thread, it might be worth keeping things on topic, and while you're allowed (I think?) to get political to some extent. It's worth remembering that you're not immune or exempt from criticism. Also if it gets heated as most political stuff tends to it might be worth taking it to PMs or it's own forum thread.

As an aside, I'll think you'll find most people are really not into the "thousands of people think/have said so" appeal to authority. The top 10 is GB's top 10. The entire world could have different opinions and that's not what that list is about. A portion of GB liked Dream Daddy and it goes on the list. Could have been Bad Rats and it would have been just as valid. Long time GBers know the score.

If you don't got time to listen, you're welcome.

Yikes. The Jade Raymond bit kind of highlights why her doing the press tour for Assassin's Creed always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. She was just the producer. Patrice Desilets was the creative mastermind behind that first game. To Jade's credit, she always attempted to make it crystal clear that that was the case, letting people know that "this is Patrice's game." But it was a little suspect to have the producer running around to promote it rather than the creative director.

I think it was a shrewd move to avoid giving Dan the real dinnerware.

Anyway, @ybbaaabby is completely right about spitting. If it's a medical emergency then OK but premeditated spitting is gross. Spit in the bathroom into the sink. I *guess* a trash can will do (but do make sure to get it inside the receptacle, and not hanging out on the rim). If you're spitting onto the sidewalk you are undeserving of respect.

@deccaddo: You don’t stoop to name calling but at the end of your first post you essentially call people childish by stating that they should grow the fuck up? You then state that your messages are being removed. If they’re being removed from the GB boards then the mods did it for very good reason, not because they couldn’t debate you.

Also, telling people to look up video comments on YouTube for the “hard facts” as a point of fact isn’t helping your argument. People “feeling” like someone’s pushing an agenda doesn’t make it true as feelings are rarely a accurate barometer of truth. If you can’t see that then we agree to disagree.

I also disagree with your suggestion that all GB had to do to keep some from believing in this conspiracy would’ve been to come out and say that they didn’t do it for political/social reasons. It wouldn’t have mattered to people looking for an excuse to hate on their choice. GB might also not have thought the Dream Daddy conspiracy worth addressing which I can totally understand.

You do have me stumped on the like/dislike bar turning into a lightsaber though.

@deccaddo: *big wet fart noise*

@deccaddo: you wrote, “grow the fuck up,” implying that they are children, even though you said in a previous post that you don’t name call. Again, we agree to disagree.

The thousands you wrote about before, how do you know that the 1600 dislikes, assuming they’re all unique individuals, is a massive chuck of the audience of this site even though your evidence is from YouTube and not this site? How many of those dislikes were about that and not something else in the goty discussion video?

You stating that the first page is almost exclusively about Dream Daddy doesn’t help you either. GB’s goty videos are heated and long with a lot of games being talked about. It’s improbable that all those dislikes are because of Dream Daddy.

I’ll just end this by stating that you’re really showing your hand and how fringe you are if you think GB takes political correctness to the extreme.

@deccaddo: and who, other than children, “grow up?”

So you meant comments and not dislikes of a video, even though you wrote, “the goty video was disliked by 1600 people.” Meaning that you read and tallied up 1600 opinions on that video complaining about GB’s choice of including Dream Daddy in their top ten? Sure.

Me bringing up last year’s goty was because your statement that, “people here are not used to someone disagreeing with them,” is false. If you were here for any length of time, you’d see many examples of disagreement in the comments section. It’s just that most of that disagreement doesn’t believe in conspiracy crap.

As for you not ever supporting them but then lurking around on their boards, those are some bad optics and yes, your priorities are clear, to everyone.

This Deccaddo chap seems very odd.

Anyway, the Vinny/Dan/Jeff cowboy quotes bit was great, even if I didn't understand a single reference!

Default pic, created just today, only post. Nice alt.

I wouldn't be surprised if discussing the amount of work the team at Rockstar did was a planned talking point in an attempt to convey the quality of the game. The impression that I've gotten is that Rockstar was surprised by the backlash, as many game developers (as well as game consumers) don't think of labor issues. They seem to have been trying to address that backlash to avoid, not court, further controversary, with the additional statements they've issued and by allowing some employees to speak publicly about their experiences.

Ironically, it actually sounds like Rockstar is a better company to work for then they have been in the past, although they have a lot of room to improve still.

@basanakin: No, the usual suspects were just probably annoyed that they couldn't confect some outrage over the treatment of race or gender in the game this time so they had to settle for this.

Goddamn that Metal Gear bit was fucking good.

is dan ok.

God Damn the Red Dead Metal Gear bit is amazing.

Think we have a new Giant Roms idea @zandravandra. Please duders make this game.

Boy this software would benefit from an ignore function.

Pro spitting here. You don't spit on or near people, but why are we in any way out here defending the sanctity of the damn sidewalk? If you've got something gross in your face, get it the hell out of there. It'll make you feel better and have zero meaningfully negative impact on others.

@deccaddo:I focused on your original comment due to how extreme it was, in combination with what I considered heavy misrepresentation with some hope that you may self reflect.

Reasons for mentioning the headline issue on each piece of relevant media; Bigger release, bigger reach than normal audience. Can't assume people will have watched other content. Can't talk in depth about game without some mention. New information surfaces. It is a personality based business, for good and bad, many regulars want to know their opinions. GB crew think issues matter.

In this podcast alone: [6 minutes 48 seconds super generous timing, with context]

#A 00:14:40 ~4:22 News Section: Kotaku piece into opinions, Alex on Rockstar focus.

#B 00:26:53 ~0:42 Tangent thought during talk of details. [Less than 10 seconds but you need help]

#C 01:00:00 ~0:54 Alex's personal conjecture of some story arcs to working conditions.

#D 01:06:52 ~0:10 Credits. [all timestamps chosen for better context]

#E 01:10:25 ~0:40 Bakalar+ on value. [get to this later]

#/ 02:03:32 ~6:48Extreme? Whatever, let's not get hung up, but perhaps the wrong choice of word?

Effect on opinions: Yes, to a varying extent it should imo. The act of creation is inherently effected by social norms, environment, etc to some degree. I find conversations exploring these avenues interesting, however there is room for many approaches, dedicated spaces for subjects exist. GB in general are very reserved in comparison with sister site Waypoint.

Back to your points on this podcast. I don't hear anyone equating crunch time with the animation team. Yes; hard work and time into the animations and your take of #B, I think it's separate.

The end of #A you say "...looking for reasons to be outraged..." simply no, Alex is talking about why the focus is on Rockstar.

Alex Effect-ed on the story, uh, he is proposing parallels in #C to work place conditions, yes. I'd argue relatable in many fields. But has it strongly influenced his opinion on the story? Maybe.

Let's say I concede #C and #B yet their opinions on the product are 'top marks'. Weak Effect.

Asking for game prices to go up, to counter crunch: Ok, let's start with me labelling that 'paraphrase' as Bakalar, because it was his 'bit' which started about the value of the game into your agenda. You could blame my ears, or you could blame your implications vagueness. ^^ Anyway, quick points of #E:

[Jeff: incredulous] someone asked me is it worth $60-

[Dan: jokingly] it's a weekend rental.

[Jeff: continues bit] it's worth like $200.

[Vinny: crew laughing] that's another thing we could talk about at some point-

[Alex: joking] WELL THERE MIGHT BE A PRE-ORDER VERSION YOU CAN BUY FOR THAT MUCH M-

[Jeff: down-low joke] maybe it should cost that much-

[Vinny: deadpan] maybe the price of games needs to move up-

[Various Crew: chime in] Rockstar rollin' in online monah!

[Vinny: dramatic fluster] we can't. we can't! we can't!!

*Condensed and not word for word. Topic moves on. No mention of crunch.

Of course this is unfair, I've included tone subtitles! oh dear, well understanding toneis subjective.

Let's walk in your shoes, for that segment: amidst all the laughter you hear the chillingly calculated pro-corporate voice of Vinny the social soul of workers rights against the conditions they slave... I jest of course. Vinny has found it an interesting subject before fyi, it's came up when talking about prices of games in the past, and I feel is connected to 'It's the best time to be playing games' bit, but that may have been before you got into GB. It's a conversation that does not rely on the topic at hand and I struggle to see how any native language regular listener would not detect the humour at play.

Cans of worms and the silent sound of my tone deafening nonsense: I quite gladly admit a gap of knowledge in life, but also can see a trap of definitions. So all I'll say on the matter is politics have a history of being involved in unions, vice versa. Media definitely has effected spread and opinion of unions, seeing others get rights is contagious, let alone workers outreaching for a protected voice.

For the most part I ignored your other posts, and didn't see page two till almost posted, hence the strike-through as nothing deserved merit in the OG comment. Besides, we had enough crap to talk about.

Oh! *clutches mouth in horror* I said talk when we are actually typing, however will they know what I mean... Ok, I've been very blunt with the Tone™, but not outright. Every bit of writing has tone to it, or whatever other word you want to use for it, it's in the grammar, inflection, words used, layout, font, subject, intent... Yes, it's not always parsed, interpreted correctly, confusion happens more often. No difference with the spoken word, with memories, with eyesight. It's all subjective.

"...direct with your opinions..." I'll state again how your OG comment was confrontational enough to block actual conversation on your viewpoint, and also barely had anything to address. Maybe you had a bad day, or were too 'heated' [scare quotes btw single marks] over dinner plans, with an empty stomach everyone can get a bit cagey, had a single outburst comment over frustration of hearing about the same thing in yet another bit of coverage and by gawd darn it had to release. [humorous conjecture]

But as evidenced by the quality and direction of comments in reaction and how in 3 small essays between us we've not touched on the subject you wanted to... you seem like a smart fellow, I hope you can forgive me breaking things down to there simple forms and [attempting] humour.

I believe to have been reasonably reasonable, given your side thought, concessions, lack of knowledge [site history]. But if you can't concede to being abrasive with no real argument other than 'they be old enough to quit', 'unions are made from within' in your opening salvo, [sorry I didn't notice the part where GB started a union for others against their will, maybe it's in their newsletter, did I miss the manifesto?] then we don't get the dinner talk with the adults.

"...kinda twisting my message..." / "...hypocrisy..." / "...bit...biased..."

Only intended to show the takeaway summary from the section in 'brevity quotes', it does directly reference the section, perhaps check it yourself for anything on 'familiarity', nothing in that section sir. / We all can be hypocritical, I reserve the right to change my mind, I even avoided pointing out contradictions in the OG comment. / Yes, I am biased. I don't recall claiming not to be. Oh but maybe, even more than I thought I was...

No hate, just bewilderment, thanks for the conversation.

I need more Metalgear/Cowboy crossover content in my life!