I just started playing SC2 and quickly learned I have had a 0% success rate when fighting against protoss. This is mainly because of what I hear is called a mass stalkers rush. This thing sucks. I don't know what to do. Please help fellow Giantbombros(bras)!
P.S. I'm playing as terran.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty
Game » consists of 10 releases. Released Jul 27, 2010
The first chapter in the StarCraft II trilogy focuses on the struggles of the Terran race, as seen through the eyes of Commander Jim Raynor, leader of the rebel group Raynor's Raiders.
How do you counter mass stalkers?
You don't! AHAHAHA seriously though please don't because I like to make a lot of blink stalkers and I don't like losing.
" I had 3 siege tanks but they got messed up right quick. Are they weaker in siege mode? "Definitely not weaker, but it's all about positioning and patience if you're going that route. And yes, I forgot to add that Stim is key. And upgrades if you're going mass infantry, of course.
Interesting, I'd like to see the replay, actually.
If they didn't fire they must have not had vision (for example, if the stalkers were on top of a hill you woudn't be able to see them). A scan from an orbital command could fix that, or a flying unit such as the Viking. Remember that tanks can fire further than they see, but they won't fire a thing if the unit isn't in vision.
Use the ghosts EMP to destroy their shields and then the marauders should have a very easy time taking them out.
Mass anything.
Seriously, Stalkers are one of the worst cost effective units in the game. In smaller numbers they actually lose to workers for cost.
If you want to really obliterate them:
As Toss Immortals eat them alive.
Terrans will destroy them with Marauders.
For Zerg, just about anything. Lings, Roaches, and Hydras all beat them badly for cost.
Stalkers are very good in small packs, escpecially against units with smaller range. They can always retreat when in trouble (not against speedlings, of course). They are also incredible anti-air units, both against armored and non-armored flyers.
Also, stalkers win a fight vs roaches easily. That 'lose to workers' statement is really bold too, imo.
@imsh_pl: The stalker mobility is what makes them awesome, I think. Blink, and the fact that they're so damn fast just makes them a pain to deal with as a terran. They can outmaneuver a mech army, warp in to deflect drops, and destroy vikings trying to target a colossus with ease. Good unit. I hate it.
Stalkers are flat out destroyed by Roaches of EQUAL COST. Sure if you send even numbers the Stalkers come out slightly ahead, but a Stalker costs 2x what a roach does. When out numbered 2-1 Stalkers get smashed quickly. The fight isn't even close, Stalkers get annihilated.
As for workers beating them for cost, ya in practical terms that is not true. But take 4 works and send them on a stalker (without micro) and the workers win. Things turn for the stalkers when numbers grow, but the point still stands.
" @MementoMori: He just started playing when this was posted, give the guy a break.
@imsh_pl: The stalker mobility is what makes them awesome, I think. Blink, and the fact that they're so damn fast just makes them a pain to deal with as a terran. They can outmaneuver a mech army, warp in to deflect drops, and destroy vikings trying to target a colossus with ease. Good unit. I hate it. "
Stalkers are a poorly designed unit. They move too fast, are too durable, and worst of all do far too little damage. They are designed to be a ranged support unit, they should hit harder and die faster. Their mobility is also too good. They are also the reason Toss AA is awful, they are counted for cost by anything that can hit them from the air.
Zealots on the other hand are far too slow, even with Charge (and charge comes too late).
Right now Terran micro renders all Toss T1 counterable by either Marines or Marauders. FF is the crutch that keep Toss in the early game, and that is poorly designed too because it is too powerful before its later counters hit the field.
Toss needs some major reworking in their units and when they get their tech upgrades. Not buffed so much as changed.
You seem to be the guy to whom comparing 2 units boils down to comparing their damage and mineral/gas cost and counting their overall dps." @imsh_pl: " Also, stalkers win a fight vs roaches easily. That 'lose to workers' statement is really bold too, imo." Stalkers are flat out destroyed by Roaches of EQUAL COST. Sure if you send even numbers the Stalkers come out slightly ahead, but a Stalker costs 2x what a roach does. When out numbered 2-1 Stalkers get smashed quickly. The fight isn't even close, Stalkers get annihilated. As for workers beating them for cost, ya in practical terms that is not true. But take 4 works and send them on a stalker (without micro) and the workers win. Things turn for the stalkers when numbers grow, but the point still stands. "
Micro says hi.
Supply says hi.
Zerg larvae say hi.
EDIT: Out of curiosity, I just checked that. 4 stalkers win against 8 roaches without losing any health (well, one stalker lost ~10 health, I think - mismicro). The same applies to 1v2 and 5v10. I'll post the replays if you want.
@Mike17032
said:" @csl316 said:
Stalkers are a poorly designed unit. They move too fast, are too durable, and worst of all do far too little damage. They are designed to be a ranged support unit, they should hit harder and die faster. Their mobility is also too good. They are also the reason Toss AA is awful, they are counted for cost by anything that can hit them from the air." @MementoMori: He just started playing when this was posted, give the guy a break.
@imsh_pl: The stalker mobility is what makes them awesome, I think. Blink, and the fact that they're so damn fast just makes them a pain to deal with as a terran. They can outmaneuver a mech army, warp in to deflect drops, and destroy vikings trying to target a colossus with ease. Good unit. I hate it. "
Lololol it's exactly the opposite.
They hit hard. And die not so slowly, too.
They are also the reason Toss AA is awful, they are counted for cost by anything that can hit them from the air.
And toss AA is not awful.
Take the numbers out of your head! You can't say that "unit A costs X money and X gas, therefore unit B is better because it's cheaper". It is just a stupid way to compare units, because they do not boil down to only DPS and health.
@Mike17032
said:Give me a single sane reason why I wouldn't micro my stalker when it's being attacked by 4 workers." @imsh_pl: " As for workers beating them for cost, ya in practical terms that is not true. But take 4 works and send them on a stalker (without micro) and the workers win. Things turn for the stalkers when numbers grow, but the point still stands. "
Just one.
The point doesn't 'still stand' because you're trying to describe a situation which would never occur.
" The problem isn't that "you had the wrong unit"
it's likely "
*MementoMori puts on sunglasses*
" "you suck at macro" "
@Donos said:
" @Mike17032 said:If it doesn't walk like a support unit, swim like a support unit or quack like a support unit, maybe it's not a support unit. "They are designed to be a ranged support unit, they should hit harder and die faster. Their mobility is also too good. "
"Ranged support" make of 2 of the 3 words in the tooltip. One would assume that is what Blizzard designed it to be.
@imsh_pl said:
" @Mike17032 said:
You seem to be the guy to whom comparing 2 units boils down to comparing their damage and mineral/gas cost and counting their overall dps." @imsh_pl: " Also, stalkers win a fight vs roaches easily. That 'lose to workers' statement is really bold too, imo." Stalkers are flat out destroyed by Roaches of EQUAL COST. Sure if you send even numbers the Stalkers come out slightly ahead, but a Stalker costs 2x what a roach does. When out numbered 2-1 Stalkers get smashed quickly. The fight isn't even close, Stalkers get annihilated. As for workers beating them for cost, ya in practical terms that is not true. But take 4 works and send them on a stalker (without micro) and the workers win. Things turn for the stalkers when numbers grow, but the point still stands. "
Micro says hi.
Supply says hi.
Zerg larvae say hi.
Yes, I would be the guy who compares the single most important aspect of what is considered a counter to what, cost. For cost, Stalkers flat out lose to roaches.
"Lololol it's exactly the opposite.
They hit hard. And die not so slowly, too. "
Yes, taking 4 shots to kill a worker is "hitting hard". Interesting concept there. They also scale terribly with upgrades, while roaches don't.
" And toss AA is not awful.
Take the numbers out of your head! You can't say that "unit A costs X money and X gas, therefore unit B is better because it's cheaper". It is just a stupid way to compare units, because they do not boil down to only DPS and health. "
No, it boils down to a lot of of things. And yes, Toss have by far the worst AA of all 3 races. They are the only race to lack a gas free unit that can defend against air harass. That alone is a huge problem. Add in the fact that stalkers are countered for cost by any air unit that has the ability to hit them and things get worse.
" Give me a single sane reason why I wouldn't micro my stalker when it's being attacked by 4 workers. Just one. The point doesn't 'still stand' because you're trying to describe a situation which would never occur. ""
Thats the point, that without micro they are less effective (in small numbers of course) in combat than workers. That is just sad.
Stalkers are a poorly designed unit that leave a large gap in the protoss T1.5 tree. They are the main reason that Terran T1 mops the floor with Toss.
Gaaaaad damnit... you got me." Mass Restraining Orders. Boom. "
But yeah, haven't played SC2 in forever but your answer to Stalkers is MMM ball, also the answer to almost everything else. If your losing with that, use more skill, or macro better, whatever works.
Stalkers are not a problem when your Terran.
Marauders beat stalkers and Terrans can wall in early on.
Tips?
Work on a strong opening build to have a defensive start.
Work on your macro-management to keep the Marauder-Stalker ratio in your favor.
Try something different?
Wall in and go for +1 Attack early on, and then mass Marauder rush them.
"Yes, I would be the guy who compares the single most important aspect of what is considered a counter to what, cost. For cost, Stalkers flat out lose to roaches. "
I don't know if you noticed, but 2 roaches don't cost as much as one stalker.
Also, if you want to suppose than 1 stalker equals 2 roaches: again, stalkers lose no health while killing all the roaches. Watch these two games.
"Yes, taking 4 shots to kill a worker is "hitting hard". Interesting concept there. "
Oh, so you're saying that a unit is bad because it takes too many shots to kill a worker with it?
Interesting concept there.
By your definition dark templar is the best unit in the game, and stalkers are better than marauders.
"And yes, Toss have by far the worst AA of all 3 races."
Uhm, nope.
"They are the only race to lack a gas free unit that can defend against air harass. That alone is a huge problem. "
It's not a problem at all, really. I haven't heard anyone complain that stalkers are bad AA because they cost gas. Except you, that is.
"Add in the fact that stalkers are countered for cost by any air unit that has the ability to hit them and things get worse. "
Give me a possible combination of any number of stalkers vs any number of flying units which cost exactly the same, both mineral, gas and supply wise.
Oh, turns out there is none.
"Thats the point, that without micro they are less effective (in small numbers of course) in combat than workers."
Every unit in the game is less effective without micro, actually. When you're buying a unit, you're not only paying only for damage and health, you know.
I don't know why you're so obssessed with comparing units based solely on their damage, health and cost. In SC II there are way too many factors in such equasion, and there is no possible way to state if one unit is better than the other. Every unit has its advantages and disadvantages.
I don't know if you noticed, but 2 roaches don't cost as much as one stalker.
Also, if you want to suppose than 1 stalker equals 2 roaches: again, stalkers lose no health while killing all the roaches. Watch these two games.
Not quite, no. But it is very close to that. And again, for cost Roaches beat Stalkers. This isn't something that is up for debate, it is simple fact. Toss need either Immortals, VRs, or Coli to stop Roach play from Zergs.
And grats on finding someone who knew how to micro their stalkers vs someone who didn't know how to micro Roaches (or was too lazy to research burrow, something that hits the field long before blink). Better players rolling scrubs isn't good evidence for unit balance.
"Oh, so you're saying that a unit is bad because it takes too many shots to kill a worker with it?
Interesting concept there.
By your definition dark templar is the best unit in the game, and stalkers are better than marauders. "
No, just proving you wrong on stalkers "hitting hard". They don't , at all. Not even against armored where they get a terribly scaling bonus. It is hard to find a unit that does lower DPS, because you can't. They have the lowest unarmored DPS in the game almost, two workers do almost as much. Is this the part where you tell me DPS doesn't matter and there are other factors involved in "hitting hard"?
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t8Z5bsJL0-2LyqHW1DWUAYA&output=html
" Uhm, nope. "
Your utter lack of evidence has totally convinced me that Toss AA is great. Even though they are the only race with no gas free AA units, and ground units that flat out lose to anything with the ability to hit them back.
" It's not a problem at all, really. I haven't heard anyone complain that stalkers are bad AA because they cost gas. Except you, that is."
Then you must not understand the game well, or spend much time reading the Battle.net forums. Having a gas cost on a unit is a big difference vs one that does not, and Toss is already very gas heavy. If I have to explain why it matters, you wouldn't understand it anyway.
Btw they are not "bad" because they cost gas, they are bad because they lose for cost to all flying units. The fact that they cost gas is only adding insult to injury. The idea that you need "exact" cost is just silly, not sure what kind of logic you are trying to use but it's failing.
" Every unit in the game is less effective without micro, actually. When you're buying a unit, you're not only paying only for damage and health, you know. I don't know why you're so obssessed with comparing units based solely on their damage, health and cost. In SC II there are way too many factors in such equasion, and there is no possible way to state if one unit is better than the other. Every unit has its advantages and disadvantages. ""
Look up, thats my point going right over your head. No, I don't expect you to understand. But given the many other things you seem to not understand about SC2 I wouldn't worry about this one too much.
" Stalkers are not a problem when your Terran. Marauders beat stalkers and Terrans can wall in early on. Tips? Work on a strong opening build to have a defensive start. Work on your macro-management to keep the Marauder-Stalker ratio in your favor. Try something different? Wall in and go for +1 Attack early on, and then mass Marauder rush them. "
I will add that you really want Concussive Shell early vs Toss, because it will not only nullify Zealots but also prevent him from playing kite games with Stalkers. That upgrade is very good vs Toss.
You're talking about the lack of evidence, but the only evidence you've presented so far is a spread sheet (which is outdated, by the way). You've yet to present to me a single piece of information why protoss AA is bad, because the only things you're saying is that 'stalkers lose to every AA unit for cost' which is just simply and flat out wrong." @imsh_pl said:
I don't know if you noticed, but 2 roaches don't cost as much as one stalker.
Also, if you want to suppose than 1 stalker equals 2 roaches: again, stalkers lose no health while killing all the roaches. Watch these two games. Not quite, no. But it is very close to that. And again, for cost Roaches beat Stalkers. This isn't something that is up for debate, it is simple fact. Toss need either Immortals, VRs, or Coli to stop Roach play from Zergs. And grats on finding someone who knew how to micro their stalkers vs someone who didn't know how to micro Roaches (or was too lazy to research burrow, something that hits the field long before blink). Better players rolling scrubs isn't good evidence for unit balance. "Oh, so you're saying that a unit is bad because it takes too many shots to kill a worker with it? Interesting concept there.By your definition dark templar is the best unit in the game, and stalkers are better than marauders. " No, just proving you wrong on stalkers "hitting hard". They don't , at all. Not even against armored where they get a terribly scaling bonus. It is hard to find a unit that does lower DPS, because you can't. They have the lowest unarmored DPS in the game almost, two workers do almost as much. Is this the part where you tell me DPS doesn't matter and there are other factors involved in "hitting hard"? http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t8Z5bsJL0-2LyqHW1DWUAYA&output=html " Uhm, nope. " Your utter lack of evidence has totally convinced me that Toss AA is great. Even though they are the only race with no gas free AA units, and ground units that flat out lose to anything with the ability to hit them back. " It's not a problem at all, really. I haven't heard anyone complain that stalkers are bad AA because they cost gas. Except you, that is." Then you must not understand the game well, or spend much time reading the Battle.net forums. Having a gas cost on a unit is a big difference vs one that does not, and Toss is already very gas heavy. If I have to explain why it matters, you wouldn't understand it anyway. Btw they are not "bad" because they cost gas, they are bad because they lose for cost to all flying units. The fact that they cost gas is only adding insult to injury. The idea that you need "exact" cost is just silly, not sure what kind of logic you are trying to use but it's failing. " Every unit in the game is less effective without micro, actually. When you're buying a unit, you're not only paying only for damage and health, you know. I don't know why you're so obssessed with comparing units based solely on their damage, health and cost. In SC II there are way too many factors in such equasion, and there is no possible way to state if one unit is better than the other. Every unit has its advantages and disadvantages. "" Look up, thats my point going right over your head. No, I don't expect you to understand. But given the many other things you seem to not understand about SC2 I wouldn't worry about this one too much. "
You think that units boil down to minerals and gas, but you've failed to notice that a stalker costs as much supply as a roach. You're talking about cost efficiency, but to you it's only minerals and gas, nothing else.
In your 'arguments' you're still neglecting to mention things such as micro, supply, larvae, build time, speed, range, or tech required to build a unit.
You want to prove to everyone that stalkers are better than roaches, but you are just talking much. You've just presented an outdated sheet and denied everything I've said so far. You still neglected to give an example of a single air unit beating a stalker 'for cost', yet you state it applies to all of them.
You're stating that I'm the one who doesn't know the game, yet you just presented a theory and failed to deliver any evidence for it. You then claim that I'm the ignorant one because I didn't disprove your 'stalkers are bad AA' theory, the one which you haven't proven in the first place.
If you're such a great player that I wouldn't be able to possibly comprehend your great SC II knowledge, at least link your profile. Mine is here.
A future tip: if you want to present a theory, you are the one who has to prove it's real, yet you seem to think it's real from the get-go and I have to disprove it.
If you want to continue or end this discussion, please refrain yourself from stating that 'I don't know the game' or 'everyone knows that' or 'you wouldn't understand anyway' or 'learn to play' or 'you clearly don't know the game', because these are not arguments. They are just used by people like you, because instead of saying 'oh yeah, I haven't thought about it that way' or 'yeah, I guess it is kinda true' it's easier for you to say 'you clearly don't understand, so your argument is invalid'.
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