@thatpinguino: Oh god yeah, haven't we all? People are fully aware this is a joke though, nobody thinks that hes just making a analytical statement on an observation he made about what Bret Michaels looks like.

@lukeweizer: I think that only solves half the issue though, the other half is that Caitlyn Jenner is still being used as the barometer for "weird looking".

To go off of what you've written, my edit would be:

"Brett Michaels looks like a mix of Mickey Rourke and my Aunt."

It's still a shitty thing to say (especially about Mickey Rourke), but if I were really hell-bent on insulting Brett Micheals that's how I would do it. It draws the comparison of a guy who is popularly considered to be odd-looking (won't anyone think about Mickey Rourke?) and a nonexistent/esoteric Aunt.

It's not much better, and definitely not my type of humor, but at least it isn't ridiculing a woman - who is part of a group often ridiculed over how they look - over how she looks.

I haven't seen one person defend going after his job or anything that idiotically extreme. I've seen a bunch of people say that shit wasn't funny and was unintentionally hurtful.

As for nothing being off-limits, sure nothing is legally off limits. But just be prepared for people to think you're an asshole when you say offensive shit (you know, the same way societal rules have always worked).

It should be against international law to report anything that happens on Twitter outside of Twitter. It's like the news equivalent of paying ransoms to hostage takers.

@spraynardtatum: Sounds good to me.

this thread mostly sucks

that joke is *awful*. i can understand people defending his right to make the joke, but defending the actual content of it is something else. it's in terribly poor taste and it deserves to be criticised, though he obviously doesn't deserve to be abused

@thatpinguino: I never said emotional violence wasn't real I just said they were not comparable. Assault is not an equal crime to saying something nasty.

@namoo: It doesn't have to be an assault level act of violence. If I fling my arm back and accidentally bump you on the head because you're sanding behind me, that was still a shitty thing to have happen, even if it was an accident.

@thatpinguino: Which is still assault in the eyes of the law. If I was using GBH as an example then I would agree with you.

I hope one day the world harasses itself off of Twitter

For those in here that have a lot of pent up frustration about the shittiness and unfairness of the world.

People like to rally behind causes for things because that's what is hot right now. So if you make a joke that people identify as offensive it doesn't really matter if they find it personally offensive, they have to say something because they're part of the "cause". It's like why people buying Toms think they're good people and helping others. They can just be their regular selfish consumerist self and pretend that it's for a good reason. Any time being proactive extends beyond sitting behind a keyboard people are rarely as righteous, or they get overly righteous to the point of persecution.

Jesus, I don't know what I expected from this thread. People will defend any-fucking-thing. If you're defending the right to be a dickhead you need to sort your fucking ideas out.

Outrage culture is a fuckin' cancerous sore on the internet's collective ass. Just keep telling jokes you wanna tell, and maybe all this shit will die. Or not. Either way, keep doin' it.

Knowing Baker's usual disposition, he probably made the joke without realizing its implications (and worded even slightly differently, it wouldn't be an issue at all). He likely would've taken it back if a reasoned voice explained why it was offensive.

But guess what? People naturally get defensive if attacked. Twitter mobs help literally no one, ever -- it's self-destructive self-gratification at its finest.What good does it do anyone to draw battle lines all over the place? Are these folks really so desperate to pat themselves on the back?

Mr. Baker said something dumb, sure, whatever, but it was at worst only tangentially insulting, and even so, it's not hard to reason it was by accident. He wasn't making a direct attack on trans people, and probably never will. He's a super liberal guy (with a sizable fanbase) who has a trend of supporting LGBT issues. Now he's been run off because people acted on outrage rather than... y'know, educating a guy who was already predisposed to being on their side (like, "hey, man, that wasn't cool and here's why" instead of "go fuck yourself and die x100)". But nah. Now his fanbase has a reason to be mad at social justice warriors.

Job well done, everybody. Now good luck with the guys who are actually out to get you.

Have you ever considered that there is a matter of perspective here? YOU think that it is an insult to Caitlyn Jenner, but I see it as a compliment. Think of it this way, Caitlyn Jenner achieved becoming a woman physically. If Micky Rourke tried to look like Caitlyn Jenner and failed, he would look like Brett Michaels. As far as the joke goes its a compliment of a good transition. Caitlyn Jenner doesn't and wouldn't deny that she looked like a man, that was the problem. She was in a mans body.

@namoo: yes, that is what I said. Thank you for your accurate translation. You are smart.

What Baker said was at worst insensitive, not something prodded on by hatred or prejudice, I'll agree. I'm sure he's a righteous guy irl. But the fact he doesn't understand why some people are upset at him mindlessly tossing out a lazy, insensitive one-liner is his major malfunction.

So let's get down to brass tacks: The original joke was absolutely a jab at Jenner's appearance, as both Michaels and Rourke have had their faces carved into non-recognition. Do the math, friends and neighbors, and defend such weak, petty-minded 'humor' at your peril.

@planetfunksquad: Well let me make myself clearer. I am defending this man's right to act like a dick 100%. I will defend anyones right to say anything they like because that is their right. No one has the right to deny him that. Regardless of the height of the horse you position yourself on.

I don't think anyone's trying to "prevent" him from saying whatever he wants. A person has the right to say whatever they want, but other people have every bit as much of a right to tell that person that they're being a jackass.

le relevant xkcd

@namoo: No one is denying anyone's right to be a dick. No one on this thread has argued anything resembling that hyperbole. But, if you act like a dick, you can't complain when people call you a dick.

I cant respect troy baker knowing that he made that joke and chose not to apologize but I don't care if he still uses twitter or not. There are actual trans women in this thread who already explained why this joke is demeaning to trans women so I don't know why they went mostly ignored, fuck.

What are you talking about? No one has denied his right to say anything. By your logic, you should be fine with the people who harassed him because they have the right to say whatever they want too. So, what exactly are you arguing? Everyone legally has the right to say whatever they want? I think everyone knows that already.

@namoo: No one can deny someone the right to be a dick head, it's impossible. Dick heads gonna be dick heads. But if you're defending the right to act like a dick head, it might be because you're a dick head.

the whole thing sucks for everyone and i wish the internet weren't so quick to gang up on anyone and would instead try and talk about this stuff

troy baker seems like a decent person. my only real exposure to him being the voice work he has done and that one GOTY video

in my opinion, the joke was bad and the whole "no you're choosing to be offended" argument is silly. like yeah i'm gonna criticize someone if what they said offends me, i wish that everyone let it stop at criticism and wouldn't move on to harassment.

this probably isn't a wonderful overview of my thoughts on the situation but i never post and take a long ass time to type this stuff out. i hope to become a little more active in the community to remedy that

edit: his choice to not apologize was pretty shitty, though im not sure if that came before or after any sort of harrasment. either way it sucks

Yes you can. It is human nature to defend yourself even when you're wrong or uninformed or ignorant. And it's okay to do that. It needs to be or else how can that "dick" feel safe enough to listen and learn? If they can't defend themselves or complain than they can't feel safe. Otherwise they're just getting a barrage of "you're a dick, you're a dick, you're a dick".

Everyone would do well to practice more empathy and compassion.

The annoying "Internet" part of it is that the telling people they're a jackass part KEEPS GOING (a la this thread). And often the people that are doing the "telling" don't have a thousand people barraging them at the same time.

Yeah, Twitter is pretty terrible in that regard, I'll definitely agree on that. The post length restriction makes it even worse. Just addressing the "he has a right to say whatever he wants, because that's his right" aspect of it.

I know this is a site about video games and people related to this, but it almost makes me wish we lived in the 1600's so people would be too busy trying to survive instead of constantly being distracted by stupid things like this. There are wars going on, people starving to death, but no, this is what we care about in the world now. Twitter and people with hurt feelings. Hurt feelings aren't actual injuries, don't act like they are. And it's not just this instance either. It's constant. I was watching CNN and right in the middle of an Iran Nuclear Deal talk, Wolf Bilzter asks one of the experts about something "offensive" he said on Twitter. I couldn't believe it. Or I could bring up anything else like this that has happened in the last couple years or so. Society is going to implode on itself because of these little things set people off.

Ooooooor maybe you can be a good person and still defend the rights of not-so-good people because you understand the importance of said rights...

I've bolded the part that gave me the impression that he shouldn't be allowed to say what he wants. Thinly veiled threats can give that impression you know? The threats are what I take issue with. Not on this forum but all of the one's he received.

@babychoochoo: The original tweet was one thing. We all fuck up. But when people are telling you that you fucked up and you retreat into a state of "WELL YOU JUST DON'T LIKE FUN MAN" thats a problem. That has nothing to do with defending the right to free speech, you're only defending the right to intentional ignorance and I fail to understand the importance of that.

@namoo: Saying that I think you need to reevaluate your position (admittedly I said it aggressively) is not the same as saying you shouldn't be allowed to say a thing. Like I said above, it's nothing to do with defending free speech, you're just defending intentional ignorance.

@namoo: I can be against any and all death threats and harassment, and still think he did something shitty. I'm not defending harassment, I'm saying the people saying they "respect him more" for not apologising are dumb.

The reason I have a problem with the twitter brand of activism is that is entirely impossible to maintain any sense of proportion. Everyone has a voice, and everyone is intent on using it, no matter the consequenses to the one being yelled at. It's like someone poking you with their finger. One person poking you with their finger you can handle, but suddenly, you can have thousands of people poking you at the same time, and then it becomes unbearable. And it doesn matter if your "crime" only warranted a single poke. Everyone feels they have the right and the need to get their poke in. Doesn't matter if someone has been poked into submission already. You deserve your poke too, dammit.

Zero proportionality.

That's why I've stopped using twitter to express my outrage, even when I'm outraged, and feel like saying something. I don't even care how right I am. You can be right, and still be an asshole. Twitter used as an amplifier has no volume control. And thus, I don't support twitter activism for anything less than revolution against an opressive government, or to call out human rights violations.

Death threats are never appropriate. In any situation. Its fucked up and you are wrong if you do it.

Someone made a bad Caiitlyn Jenner joke?

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

These are the same kind of assholes who mobbed Justine Sacco out of a job to satisfy their own smug self of superiority. I for one am fucking sick of the outrage culture that we're living in now. Everyone occasionally says something stupid or offensive and thanks to the great big noise generator that is social media, these lemmings can dogpile anyone that offends their delicate sensibilities.

And how do you suggest we remove ignorance without removing free speech along with it?

I think Jon Ronson's summing up from the TED talk I posted here earlier is highly relevent:

"Maybe there's two types of people in the world: Those who favour humans over ideology and those people who favour ideology over humans. I favour humans over ideology. But right now the ideologues are winning and they're creating a stage for constant artificial high dramas, where everybody's either a magnificent hero or a sickening villian - even though we know that's not true of our fellow humans. What's true is that we are clever and stupid; what's true is that we're grey areas.

The great thing about social media is that it gave a voice to voiceless people, but we're now creating a surveillance society, where the smartest way to survive is to go back to being voiceless. Let's not do that."

Jon Ronson - How One Tweet Can Ruin Your Life TED talk

Is the story that Troy Baker dug in his heels for retweeting a joke in poor taste on twitter? Unless we have reason to believe the tweets at him were malicious or otherwise constituted harassment, then what we're talking about is the reality of how overwhelming it is when contentious statements are made on social media and the internet reacts back. If you said a joke in poor taste with your friends, they may or may not call you out on it and then you laugh it off and admit that wasn't great and move on. But on the internet it stays there for people to react to into the thousands and potentially a lot more. Either way defending a crappy joke is disappointing but I would guess the "quitting twitter" part is as much to do with the volume of noise coming his way.

Again unless we can point to a pattern of comments constituting harassment and threats. Then that's also faulty and unwelcome but obviously hard to equate to the original act despite being related.

So You've Been Publicly Shamed is a fantastic book. I cannot recommend it enough.

Did I disappoint you? Leave a bad taste in your mouth?

@namoo: Firstly when someone is criticised for saying a thing the immediate response should not be to double down and insist that you're just joking and the people who feel that they're the butt of that joke are just over reacting. We can stop treating people who make mistakes as the devil and start treating them as people who had a moment of piss-poor judgement (and the people who sent death threats to Troy over this, if that happened, or who defend that harassment, would fall into the group of dick heads I was talking about earlier. I'll address that below). And we can stop defending shitty behaviour on the grounds of "free speech". I understand the need to defend a man from harassment, but you can do that while also acknowledging he fucked up and that he should have responded better. Finally, people like me can stop letting their emotions get the better of them and dehumanising the opposition. I have a habit of just saying fuck you to people, when I shouldn't, and I'm not alone in that.

That'd be a start.

But I don't think he fucked up. He can make any joke he wants. You can agree or disagree with him as you wish. What you can't do is demand he take's a course of action that you agree with. He cannot be made to do anything and should not be forced too.

People say they quit smoking.

Just shut down twitter for a year or two until the internet calms down and stops being a beauty pageant of negativity.

As for Troy, quitting twitter is completely fine if he doesn't want to engage in drama and idiots anymore. Making a big deal about a dude quitting a dumb social website is over dramatic and unnecessary, writing articles about it makes it even worse than the issue itself.

UGH. So sick of this crap. This age we live in is total balls.

well damn it now all I can think about is you long, beautiful, luxurious hair flowing in the wind. It is oddly calming....

@spraynardtatum: Ok, you can totally complain about being called a dick, but maybe don't be surprised and indignant about it. Especially when people clearly outline how you hurt them.

@artelinarose: @hinderk: Thanks a whole bunch for your input on this stuff. I feel like they were super useful perspectives to have.