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Crowdfunding's Secret Enemy Is PayPal

How the ubiquitous online payment system has systematically crippled project after project, until creators go public and criticize the company in exchange for help.

For the past six years, three ex-SNK fighting veterans have been toiling away at their own independent fighting game, Yatagarasu: Attack on Cataclysm. Hoping to expand, the team turned to Indiegogo and asked for $68,000. Fans rewarded them with enough enthusiasm to raise $118, 243, nearly twice the original goal.

If you use the Internet to pay for things, most likely you use PayPal on a regular basis.

Then, the money disappeared. PayPal, which handles transactions between creators and fans on Indiegogo, locked down the developer’s account, and said it could only have 50% of the funds. The rest would be released as development continued, based on PayPal’s assessment of the situation. PayPal was, essentially, going to become a producer on Yatagarasu going forward.

“This has nothing to do with payment processing,” said Nyu Media founder Seon King, one of the project leads. “And they’re kind of allowing themselves to join the project in a policing role where we become accountable to them. That was really ridiculous to read, to have to consider.”

Millions upon millions have been raised by game fans, and with FTL and Shadowrun Returns proving it can work, there’s few signs this new funding mechanism is going anywhere. If anything, we can expect more players to get involved. But the money is a pretty key component.

At the heart of the problem is PayPal, the eBay-owned financial transaction service that’s become one of the most ubiquitous mainstays on the Internet. Most sites these days offer PayPal payment options, so it’s impossible to avoid, forcing PayPal’s structural problems to the surface over and over again.

Just recently, PayPal president David Marcus posted a blog talking about how the company’s focus on global expansion “had taken precedence over our customers’ experiences for too long,” and it was launching a “Customer First” initiative. When you have to launch a program called “Customer First,” you have a problem.

King had been receiving emails from PayPal daily--more than 7,000--as fans contributed to the project. He’d started to zone them out. Two of those emails were notifications about the account status, but King didn’t find them until after discovering the account had been locked, a move that did not occur until after funding had closed and Yatagarasu had been promised to backers. PayPal asked King for information about his company, the game, and other details to establish legitimacy, which PayPal accepted. But the account was still locked, with PayPal asserting it would dole out funds for Yatagarasu as the months went on.

Yatagarasu was not the first to encounter the problem, and wasn’t even alone in dealing with the problem that week. Months prior, Skullgirls developer Lab Zero Games had encountered similar issues on a different scale. Skullgirls raised an astounding $828,768 on Indiegogo, despite only asking for $150,000. It was a monstrous, unexpected reaction from the game’s beloved fans, and it gave the game a new life.

Two weeks after Skullgirls’ campaign closed, Lab Zero went to access its mound of funds.

“I had pulled out like $700,000 and dumped it into our bank,” said Lab Zero founder Peter Bartholow. “I get a call from a [PayPal] guy who’s like ‘yeah, I can’t believe they let you do that, I’ve locked down the $35,000 you have remaining in your PayPal account.’ Just because.”

That “just because” is PayPal fears chargebacks from upset fans if a project falls through or doesn’t live up to expectations. Several developers were given this line. Despite crowdfunding having gone on for years at Kickstarter, this has not broken Amazon Payments, which handles transactions for Kickstarter. Nonetheless, PayPal touted this repeatedly to projects, in addition to citing concerns about potential fraudulent activity.

Lab Zero was in contact with PayPal long before its account locked. A PayPal representative touched base with Bartholow, asked about the campaign, and offered to present them with a merchant rate, which meant PayPal took a lower cut. Since a merchant rate required a campaign sustaining itself for three months, Bartholow passed, but the phone call ended with the representative wishing Bartholow good luck.

“That was it,” he said. “I thought the call was going to be super ominous.”

“I get a call from a [PayPal] guy who’s like ‘yeah, I can’t believe they let you do that, I’ve locked down the $35,000 you have remaining in your PayPal account.’ Just because.”

When the account became locked, Bartholow was presented with the same options as Yatagarasu: let PayPal become a producer and determine how the money is spent.

“So I sent him [the PayPal rep] all the documentation,” said Bartholow, “and he’s like ‘yeah, this all checks out. We still need to hold the reserve. It will last another six months or whatever, and you can contact me if you need me to release money and stuff like that. If you can demonstrate you are spending your money wisely and stuff.’”

With PayPal not presenting many decent options, Bartholow’s next move was to go public, and tell his backers what the problem was. If enough people rattled PayPal’s cage, maybe it would decide another way. It worked, and the problem was quickly resolved. When the Yatagarasu team encountered the same problem, it called up Bartholow, seeking advice. It was quickly decided that Yatagarasu would go public, as well.

When King disclosed Yatagarasu’s issue with PayPal, he was boarding a flight from Canada to the UK. When he stepped off the plane, the issue had been resolved.

“When I arrived, I had an email from PayPal saying ‘we’d lifted the restriction.’” said King. “No apology or anything like that.”

PayPal did follow-up with King days later, but seemingly remained confused at why a project would have trouble with restrictions that released the money in waves.

These are the most recent examples of PayPal’s tense exchanges with crowdfunded creators, but others have been dealing with PayPal for much longer. Back in March, Red Thread Games finished collecting $1.54 million from excited fans looking for a new entry in The Longest Journey. It offered a PayPal option, which generated more than $70,000. Almost immediately after the project closed, that money was locked away.

Red Thread Games founder Ragnar Tornquist sighed almost immediately when we started talking, and his story is familiar. Like Skullgirls and Yatagarasu, PayPal didn’t reach out until the campaign had closed, long after it had finished launching, promoting, and closing a successful crowdfunding campaign on a legitimate service. PayPal asked Tornquist for details about the company, the project, and the plans for the future, all in the interest of fraud concerns. PayPal noted the information, but refused to lift the restriction, and told Red Thread it would hand over the money when the game was finished, bucking the whole idea of crowdfunding.

“At that point, we had had a successful $1.5 million dollar Kickstarter,” said Tornquist. “You would think that would prove that we have something that was kosher. But it’s been incredibly difficult to get any answer from them, and every time we get in touch with them, it’s impossible to find phone numbers, it’s impossible to get in touch with people, nobody ever knows our story--we have to start over again every single time.”

Worse still, sometimes Red Thread would contact PayPal and reach someone who wasn’t even aware of what Kickstarter was, despite the service’s prominent existence for several years now.

“Our general manager had to spend time explaining to the first representative what Kickstarter was,” he said. “He was looking it up online as they were speaking. After that, they were like ‘oh, that sounds interesting!’ and nothing happened.”

But Tornquist wasn’t overly concerned about his company’s scuffles with PayPal, considering most of the funding had come through just fine through Kickstarter and Amazon Payments. But when plans were set in motion for JourneyCon, a convention celebrating The Longest Journey series, Red Thread was forced to accept ticket sales through PayPal. As those sales came through the same account, PayPal locked it down.

“Now, it started directly affecting our fans and backers,” he said. “That’s when I said ‘fuck this, now I’m just gonna make an issue out of it because it’s directly hurting people.’”

Red Thread started making noise on Twitter, alerting the @AskPayPal account to its problems. This was the same day as Yatagarasu’s conflict with PayPal. After our interview, I sent a PayPal rep a question about it, making note of Red Thread’s ongoing issues. Not long after that, Tornquist told me it has been resolved.

Lab Zero found resolution in the same unorthodox manner. When PayPal's "Customer First" policy was unveiled, Bartholow contacted PayPal, figuring this was an opportune moment. Instead, Bartholow was told his contact had changed departments, and PayPal couldn't assign him a new contact. Perplexed, Bartholow tweeted at @AskPayPal, which responded with a direct message request for the account's email address.

"Two days later, I logged into PayPal to pay contractors and the reserve had been lifted," said Bartholow.

PayPal was quick to issue statements in support of these campaigns with an apologetic tone, but the piles of stories make it difficult to take the company seriously, considering how many times this issue has been resolved by developers reaching out to the media and making it public. What happens to smaller campaigns?

“We want to reiterate that supporting these campaigns is an exciting new part of our business,” said a PayPal representative. “We are working closely with industry-leaders like IndieGoGo and adapting our processes and policies to better serve the innovative companies that are relying on PayPal and crowd funding campaigns to grow their businesses. We never want to get in the way of innovation, but as a global payments company we must ensure the payments flowing through our system around the world are in compliance with laws and regulations. We understand that the way in which we are complying to these rules can be frustrating in some cases and we've made significant changes in North America to adapt to the unique needs of crowd funding campaigns. We are currently working to roll these improvements out around the world.”

It’s easy to say the right thing. The true test, of course, will be the next wave of crowdfunding projects.

Patrick Klepek on Google+
167 Comments
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Posted by Quantris

This stuff should really be the responsibility of sites like Kickstarter or Indiegogo to sort out. If they're offering Paypal as an option that kind of implies that they've arranged something with them, which turns out not to be the case. And really, that means they're failing at pretty much the only thing they're supposed to do.

Seems like a good opportunity for a crowd-funding site with a guaranteed payment system to step in.

Posted by Aretak

Another fantastic article, Patrick. I've had my own (much, much smaller) problems with Paypal over the years, and they're by far the worst company I've ever had to deal with in terms of customer service. Their disgusting fees only add to the misery. I avoid them whenever I can these days, although sadly that's just not possible with eBay.

Posted by LevelUpAdrian

As an individual (and as a studio head) who used PayPal, yeah. Fuck them.

It really sucks because when offering a product to customers, PayPal is a super attractive option. Who doesn't have a PayPal account? But yeah, they're absolutely horrific.

I bought a four-pack of Borderlands back in the day and had my three other friends chip in to my PayPal. I bought the game on Steam, but PayPal thought my purchase was fraudulent. They proceeded to take their money back from Valve, and thus Valve has no other option as per their policies than to close my account (and with that ~$2k in games).

So yeah, CRAAAAAZY

Edited by Ozzie

Great read, makes me happy that I've never used pay pal before.

Posted by evilthecat

It's almost like they are making interest on money they don't pay out to their users or something.

Actually selling stuff on e-bay has become horrible. Any issue just immediately turns into a dispute now rather than just talking to the customer to see if you can do anything about the issue first, and they freeze your funds until it's resolved, regardless who's at fault.
We've thought about not using e-bay or paypal any more. Time to jump ship to ubid?

Posted by MichaelBach

Their service is convenient but their politics are very bad. I use PayPal for my company and out of no where they decided to permanently withhold 3,000 usd as collateral and put a standard hold of any incoming funds for 90 days leaving me missing the 3k and another 5k+ trapped contentiously for 90 days. Maybe we should all just go BitCoin :)

Posted by datarez

I really wish there was an alternative. It is a super nice service and easy to use on the internet but they have so many bad stories like this and others. I still never heard a resolution to the violin story.

Edited by HerbieBug

Future kickstarter and indiegogo projects would be wise to hire an attorney to negotiate a legal agreement with Paypal concerning these issues before allowing paypal as a payment option for their project.

Also, get hype for Yatagarasu! That game looks awesome. I found out about it on SaltyBet, of all places. Some of the Yatagarasu beta characters are available for use in Mugen. Also... you should probably bet big on Yatagarasu characters when you're on SaltyBet. They're all really good.

Posted by Dr_Robocop

Great read, Patrick. It's disappointing to hear that this is how Paypal operates for crowd-funded projects. They claim they have the best interests of the backers at heart, but why then do they immediately buckle without explanation as soon as a big enough developer makes noise publicly about the situation?

Posted by EXTomar

I think there could be a good set of articles and investigations about the entire topic of indie funding!

Edited by Bgrngod

Sounds like someone needs to kickstart a competitor to Paypal...

Posted by wumbo3000

Wow, I had no idea this kind of stuff was happening. For some reason, I never use PayPal. The situation has just never come up. It's always Amazon Payments for me.

Posted by paulunga

Yeah, I think I'll stop using PayPal for my Steam purchases. Or altogether, actually. I've heard too many such stories.

Posted by Bats

This goes back for years upon years with Paypal. I still remember them locking down an account that was created for Hurricane Katrina Relief and refused to do anything about it. They ended up losing a ton of registered accounts at the time as a result and eventually got around to fixing it, but they are really a terrible company. Everytime I've had to deal with someone at Paypal it has been an exceedingly fruitless experience. I wish we had better alternatives. Whenever I see the option for Google Wallet or Amazon, anything NOT Paypal that's what I go to.

Posted by evilthecat
Posted by rolanthas

Great to see most of the issues of these studios are resolved. I've come to despise Paypal fairly quickly after its inception, and actively avoid items or services where its the mandatory payment option. Never had an issue with any other payment service yet ( though that may be because I regularly bathe in orphan tears for good luck ).

Posted by joshwent

Another aspect folks are missing here is that in the USA any bank transaction involving over $10,000 must be reported to the government, so they'll be able to monitor the movements of that cash to try and find patterns related to funding crime (importing drugs, sex trafficking etc.). I'm not sure if PayPal is forced to do the same reporting, but even if they're not, the government itself could hold them responsible for aiding in funding major crimes.

Again, that limit is $10,000. When an account is opened and $828,768 goes in, and then $700,000 goes right out again, PayPal is probably thinking, "Fuck, who's laundering money now? Are we screwed this time?" Not to mention the very real chargeback concerns others have mentioned. Just because there have been crowdfunding successes, doesn't mean that one of those won't be scam. And if you were at risk for having to refund tens of thousands of dollars from an exchange, and the item people were paying for didn't even fucking exist yet, you'd probably want to make sure those people got what they paid for too.

And sure, they should develop standard policies so they can clearly outline a procedure for these huge transactions, but just saying, "They should know better, fuck them." is blatantly only telling half the story.

Edited by geirr

As an awesome artist and digital & virtual entrepreneur I'm thankful Paypal has provided an easy option for me to make a little cash on the side. Sadly the easy part is fading and its getting harder and harder each year though and I find myself having to call them several times per year AND HOLY CRAP IS IT FRUSTRATING. Their customer reps know absolutely nothing and e-mail correspondence never quotes or remembers your past conversations. You always start from square one with a new person, every single time.

Reading about how they're policing companies is not surprising at all. Paypal is monolithic, stupid and reckless. A wonderful combination for someone who's handling your money.

Posted by umbaglo

While I accept that the threat of chargebacks is legit, how is it the correct answer to threaten the SELLER to try and prevent them? How does the people receiving the money have control over preventing chargebacks?

And even if it was the seller's responsibility, how does PayPal attempting to forcibly insert themselves as a "bank lender" help the situation? Would this whole situation not be solved instead through simple TOS methods? I would think that someone attempting a chargeback because they disagree with the way something they decided to fund is progressing would actually be fraud on the consumer's side. Why is the CC companies or Paypal or even the receiver of the funds not making a bigger deal about that?

If a seller makes it clear that they're taking money to support an unfinished project and that there's no guarantee of completion, I don't see how anyone could have a leg to stand on to justify a chargeback if the project fails or doesn't turn out how the funder thought it would. Kickstarter and other similar services makes it clear that they're not preordering systems. These people got what they paid for regardless of the results, and if that turns out to be nothing then that's the risk they accepted when they chose to back the project.

Posted by kagato

I really hope Paypal get taken to the cleaners, they have been doing this to people for far too long, Amazon payments are not perfect but way less shady than Paypal.

Edited by Uberdubie

Now THIS is real journalism. I'm not always a fan of how Patrick writes his articles (or the biased agendas within them), but IMO this is the finest thing he's ever written. Just a well-written, incredibly informative article that people truly should be reading... period. Bravo, Patrick.

Consider me yet another person who has encountered some issues (questionable fees that made zero sense in regards to their policies) with Paypal. However my story pales in comparison even to some other poor victims I know personally. It's now more apparent than ever that Paypal makes most of their money by misleading good people. Pretty sure that's illegal.

Fortunately, word is finally getting out about this crooked outfit across the board. I'm confident we're going to see some big changes and repercussions sooner than later in regards to these illegal acts commited by Paypal. Keep spreading the word, everybody.

Posted by ArbitraryWater

I got my paypal account in the first place because my bank blocks transactions with GOG. I've since used it for Ebay and stuff, but at no point am I ever going to directly link it with my bank account or otherwise process a lot of money through it. Shady bastards.

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Posted by HerbieBug

Future kickstarter and indiegogo projects would be wise to hire an attorney to negotiate a legal agreement with Paypal concerning these issues before allowing paypal as a payment option for their project.

Also, further to what I wrote above there, I do think it would be wise of Kickstarter and Indiegogo to take initiative on their own in negotiating better terms with Paypal in the interests of the projects they represent. Being hands off about the whole thing after the funding campaign is complete does not engender trust amongst current and future project groups who may be looking to their site as a means of funding. Kickstarter could do very well for themselves by negotiating clear terms with Paypal for all future funding projects, and provide a guarantee based on that agreement regarding the release of funds upon successful completion of the funding goal.

Posted by Sammo21

@mars: Because its typically convenient. When I need to send money to a friend I do it over Paypal. Also, I can use paypal to pay for things without my financial information being accessed by the purchaser or some other party.

Edited by MATATAT

@cikame said:

I think it's worth noting that every decision Paypal made regarding all of these issues, was made with the protection of the customers money in mind.

They are the largest internet payment company in the world, millions are traveling through them daily, the fact that they can have safeguards in place protecting people from smaller projects like this is pretty great.

It's also worth noting, so far every issue like this has been resolved.

Sort of true, but mostly false. It's hard to say whether they are "helping" the customer. You could see it that way since they want to hold on to money to make sure that there are no fraudulent people. But also they are just covering their ass in case something happens, so really who are they looking out for?

On top of that they are holding on to money that is needed if the project is actually going to go forward claiming that they want to see progress made before releasing money. That places them as a producer, which was not stipulated in any agreement between the payer and services such as IndieGoGo. I don't know what IGG's policies are but I would assume they have something in there saying you should be careful of what you back with money, the final product might not be what you were hoping. This happens with startups who get venture capital all the time. There are a lot of young entrepreneurs that secure VC and deliver a shit product and walk away with their "salary". The investors just have to mark as a loss.

Meanwhile PayPal still isn't thinking of the customer when they don't allow the developer to work freely and use the money in the way the best see fit. PayPal in this way is harming the customer by slowing the development process. Forced stops in development by services like PayPal make it difficult to deliver products within the timeline as well. Most of the time people wouldn't even know its PayPal and blame the developer.

Posted by Chicken008

Paypal is terrible. It wouldn't even let me support Skullgirls.

Posted by TopFloor

Just add this to the reasons I avoid using PayPal whenever I can. (I started actively trying to avoid them since the whole WikiLeaks thing.)

Thankfully most stores I've gone to have at least one option besides PayPal.

Posted by InternetDetective

The money doesn't belong to PayPal, they have no legal right to hold it hostage. This is obvious because when companies go public about it PayPal immediately backs down and releases the funds. Someone should skip the "going public" and just go straight into lawsuit mode, maybe that would stop them from pulling this kind of caper in the future.

As for unsatisfied consumers asking for refunds when a project dies or doesn't turn out how they want PayPal just needs to tell them "No."

Posted by Krakn3Dfx

I always use the Amazon Payments option for Kickstarter. Hopefully it's more reliable for the developers to deal with. I have a Paypal account for some things, but I'm always wary of them based on stories and my own experiences with them not really seeming to give a shit about customers.

Edited by DonPixel

"Millions upon millions have been raised by game fans, and with FTL and Shadowrun Returns proving it can work"

Among millions and millions of failures and "Good Will" scams...

Posted by KoolAid

Is it just me, or is Paypal super unreliable? The tagline is pay with confidence, and its called freaking paypal, but its anything but. I've had friends sell stuff on ebay through paypal, they see the payment in their account, they send the goods, and then all the sudden paypal takes the money away and says don't send anything. And its too late! I'd stay far away from paypal, as much as possible, with payments big and small.

Posted by Thurbleton

Insightful article Patrick, well done again sir

Edited by logan3

I've had this exact same problem with PayPal all the way back since 2005 or so. After a similar event in 2006 I finally decided that I'd had enough and stopped using PayPal for anything other than purchasing small items. PayPal is one of the worst companies to use for businesses and sellers. I don't even need to mention their gross transaction fees. If you get a call from PayPal these days you have kowtow and treat them like the police. Anything other than a "Yes, sir.," "No, ma'am" and giving the exact information you're asked for when you're asked for it will immediately hinder your chances to get the result you desire.

Edited by FaPaThY

Since when was this a secret? They can be an enemy to anyone who uses them. PayPal has always looked for any excuse to hold your money, even for personal accounts. No surprise they'd try something when tens of thousands of dollars are right in front of them.

Edited by WeaponBoy

Paypal, continuing their fine trend of being run by absolute shitheels.

Paypal's outlook is that every single one of their customers is a liar, a cheat, and a thief.

Posted by zeekthegeek

Sadly this isn't really a new issue. Back at the time of Hurricane Katrina, Something Awful ran a fundraising campaign to send relief aid to smaller charities in Louisiana. Paypal stopped them dead in their tracks and gave them two options: refund all donations..or give it to the Red Cross. No option to let the smaller charities get money. SA has not had Paypal support since then for either their account system or merch.

Posted by NoelVeiga

So, legitimate question to @patrickklepek. Did you reach out to Paypal for an all-encompassing take of the story?

I get the feeling that whenever this happens, games journos reach out to PayPal, whoever there is in charge of this not happening makes a call, that particular issue is resolved. But clearly the policies causing this are responsible and the company as a whole remains oblivious to the issue.

So is anybody following up after each incident just to see if they are making any structural changes? I'd like to know which policy is at play, who decided it should exist and why it has this outcome.

I'm also curious about the legal angle. This sounds really shifty to me. Surely PayPal has to operate as a bank, right? They do give credit and transact with real currency. Aren't there any provisions to prevent a company like this from muscling their way into controlling a company whenever they see fit?

Edited by Scampbell

Let's not forget how they blocked payment to Wikileaks too, though that probably had the US government involved.

Posted by Teoball

Fuck Paypal. Ever since the somethingawful.com debacle I've stayed away from them.

Posted by jarowdowsky

Man, though reading about the frustrations with paypal - I've seen similar stories for the last few years across loads of mediums (comics, games, fundraising drives). I really think @patrickklepek hits the nail on the head by pointing out that there just seems to be no clear policies on how this is dealt with.

I know they've recently been putting out bewildering updates to the terms of service but they should surely get something written up in absolutely clear language and then follow that for everyone.

On the flipside though, they did get me a years subscription to a cyberlocker (think it was when Hotfile stopped allowing any downloads, christ, you go through so many I forget) re-payed so that was nice.

One question I'd like to see an answer to, can you get a refund for a crowd sourced campaign that doesn't produce the goods? Has anyone actually done this - if not then it seems like they are over-stepping their responsibility and taking a huge chunk of interest on the money in return. For example - Stephenson's CLANG just got put on the back-burner, could a backer realistically get their contribution refunded?

If there are real risks, interest is payed on the money held to the campaign and the policies are clean then, personally, I think that would go a long way to removing some of the stench of corruption around these policies.

And fuck, remember when ebay was just a nice place to buy foreign cigarettes and bootleg DVDs? Ah those were the days.

Posted by scaramoosh

Kickstarter will cripple itself when all the games fail and people lose faith.

Posted by SLowrAM

Amazing, had no idea such nonsense was happening at PayPal. Sounds to me like they're going way beyond cautious in these situations.

Posted by bhhawks78

People need to stop using pay pal.

If a site ONLY takes paypal? Send their support an email saying that you wanted to buy/pay/donate but can't due to paypal only.

FORCE THEIR HAND

The stuff listed in this article wouldn't crack the top 100 of shitty stuff paypal has done.

Posted by MikeJFlick

I've never liked paypal, I suspect like any other "bank" they want to hold on to as much money as possible from people so that they can gamble with it themselves.

Posted by joshwent

Maybe I should also add that I've used pay pal doing freelance comic work for years and have never had any problems. Probably because the transactions were around $100 at a time and not absurdly huge like these kickstarter things are. And to all the people saying "that's illegal!", well, no, it's probably not. I'm no expert at all, but neither are you. So maaaybe the gigantically successful international company knows a bit more about the law than angry-person-on-video-game-message-board.

And don't forget that "regulated" banks (as well as the government itself) can do the exact same thing about withholding money if they suspect that there's anything fishy with your account.

Edited by Gremmel

Yeah 3 stories about people not getting their free money for no work done? Fucking silly. How about the thousands upon thousands of people that fall victim to actual fraud? A non story, GJ...

Edited by bluefoxxy

Are you all fucking kidding me? Listen to opressiveStink. Being in the biz, chargebacks can cause a company like PayPal to going from profitable to bankrupt in a weekend if they let chargebacks happen freely.

Patrick, this is why I kind of loathe what you write sometimes. This isn't news. This is you thinking you're a true journalist with a story to share. All it shows me is how stupid people are to hang onto every word you say as if it is scripture.

PayPal isn't acting as some producer. They are acting like a payment processing company. When that much money is being shifted, it's not as easy as "Here's your money go spend it." Yes, PP stuck their nose in pretty far with this company. But out of making sure they don't lose money. If there are chargebacks, it's on PP. Not the recipients. Tell me how that is fair in any situation, and I will concede.

Get your fucking facts straight Patrick. Fraudsters are the most vocal. If they get free money to make something that could fall through, you as the payment gateway, having all the responsibility of fallbacks financially, would be just as careful if not more.

I said it at the Evo article you wrote, and I'll say it here. Stop this horse shit dude. You are making me not want to come to GB and renew my subscription. Everyone else I'm cool with. Brad gets on my nerves sometimes, but he's knowledgable and never spins shit. I have the upmost respect for all the crew at GB. But you. You are unique. You are right most of the time but FUCKING HELL when you are wrong, it is so far off, I can't stand it. You are the Glenn Beck of GB when you write these fluff pieces.

Posted by metalsnakezero

Well at least Paypal is working to fix this problem because this is a very useful process of getting money for projects of small scale. I just started using Paypal for internet shopping so I can't say I have any negativity from them. However, when I heard when Minecraft donations were cut off due to Paypal thinking it was some scheme kinda ringed some bells. Hopeful, things can get worked out since this will be a big business for both sides.

Edited by hermes

@drakesfortune: I see your point, but it looks like PayPal would greatly benefit from defining SOME policy to handle this situation before it even happens. Instead, it sounds like they only liberate founds of people with enough leverage to stir the waters on twitter or other public media, which sounds closer to PR damage control than true anti-fraud policies.

Edited by Jokful

Are you all fucking kidding me? Listen to opressiveStink. Being in the biz, chargebacks can cause a company like PayPal to going from profitable to bankrupt in a weekend if they let chargebacks happen freely.

Patrick, this is why I kind of loathe what you write sometimes. You tend to put a spin on things for the sake of striking a useless argument, or to just rattle the news cage. This isn't news. This is you thinking you're a true journalist with a story to share. All it shows me is how stupid people are to hang onto every word you say as if it is scripture.

I said it at the Evo article you wrote, and I'll say it here. Stop this horse shit dude. You are making me not want to come to GB and renew my subscription. Everyone else I'm cool with. Brad gets on my nerves sometimes, but he's knowledgable. I have the upmost respect for all the crew at GB. But you. You are unique. You are right most of the time but FUCKING HELL when you are wrong, it is so far off, I can't stand it. You are the Glenn Beck of GB when you write these fluff pieces.

PayPal isn't acting as some producer. They are acting like a payment processing company. When that much money is being shifted, it's not as easy as "Here's your money go spend it." Though the company that I'm working for is trying to accomplish that.

Get your fucking facts straight Patrick. Fraudsters are the most vocal.

umm some dude into fighting scene said the fighting games article was great so you're wrong.

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