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If You Don't Know About Brown v. EMA, You Should

Supreme Court expected to deliver a decision on the sale of violent games on Monday. The impact on games could be tremendous. Get informed.

The legal fate of many video games lies in the hands of the people inside of this building.
The legal fate of many video games lies in the hands of the people inside of this building.

"For those of us who develop games, our right to express ourselves is hanging in the balance." -- Insomniac Games CEO Ted Price in a blog post last year

The future of video games as a creative medium may change Monday. The U.S. Supreme Court is expected to issue a ruling on Brown v. EMA, otherwise known as that violent video game court case you've seen so much coverage about in the past. The ripple effect could be tremendous.

The case was previously known as Schwarzenegger v. EMA, changed to reflect California's newly elected governor, Jerry Brown.

"We can all agree that parents are the best arbiters of determining what is right for their children," said Entertainment Software Association (who is arguing the case) president Michael Gallagher in an editorial for U.S. News. "The issue at hand though is how best to support those parents. [...] As a medium, computer and video games are entitled to the same protections as the best of literature, music, movies, and art. In the end, Americans’ rights to speech and expression are sacred and inviolate--and millions across the political spectrum agree with us."

In short, the case concerns the sale of violent games. There have been attempts by states to classify violent games differently than how material is treated in other mediums, be it music, movies or literature. All of these laws, even those that were passed, were eventually struck down by the courts, declared an infringement on First Amendment rights. Games are protected speech.

But are all games?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That's the First Amendment, obviously.

== TEASER ==

Oral arguments for the case were heard in November, but the Supreme Court doesn't immediately issue a verdict. It's expected but not assured we'll hear a decision Monday. The case itself concerns a 2005 law passed in California (California Civil Code sections1746-1746.5, which you can read for yourself here) that would regulate the sale and rental of violent games to minors.

The law defines the classification of a "violent video game" in this way:

(1) "Violent video game" means a video game in which the range of options available to a player includes killing, maiming, dismembering, or sexually assaulting an image of a human being, if those acts are depicted in the game in a manner that does either of the following:(A) Comes within all of the following descriptions:

(i) A reasonable person, considering the game as a whole, would find appeals to a deviant or morbid interest of minors.

(ii) It is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the community as to what is suitable for minors. (iii) It causes the game, as a whole, to lack serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for minors.

Postal is one of the most common games detractors point to as
Postal is one of the most common games detractors point to as "obscene."

The question at hand is whether games, like other media, are fully protected under the Constitution. The law, as written, would make selling a violent game to minors a criminal offense, moving from industry self regulation to potential fine--up to $1,000 per violation, in fact. This doesn't mean your average GameStop clerk would be fined, as the violation would only apply to those with "ownership interest" (.e. a store manager), but retailers would be at risk.

"California has a compelling interest in protecting the physical and psychological care of minors," reads an amicus brief filed by California state senator Leland Yee. "When juxtaposed against the backdrop of protecting the First Amendment, this Court has held that the Constitution does not confer the protection on communication aimed at children as it does for adults. When weighing the conflicting concerns of minors this Court correctly carved a flexible standard of review and not a strict scrutiny approach. We know, of course, that a state can prohibit the sale of sexually-explicit material to minors under a 'variable obscenity' or 'obscenity as to minors' standard.

Yee is a well known supporter of these kinds of laws.

An amicus brief, by the way, is basically an argument filed on behalf of each side, typically by someone who will be affected by the outcome. It's meant to be complimentary.

Yee, and many others, argue violent videogames fall under the same categorization as pornography. The status of pornography was largely defined by Miller v. California in 1973, which declared content marked as "obscene" was not protected by the First Amendment. The case resulted in what's referred to as the "Miller Test," which is alluded to in the California law.

The "Miller Test" (the whole text of the decision can be found here) is divided into three parts:

(a) whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards" would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, Roth, supra, at 489,

(b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law, and

(c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

If a work fits all three, it's considered "obscene." Just swap the sexual terminology for violence.

The crux of this case is whether government, not industry, should protect minors. Parents are still allowed to purchase whatever they please for their children. The fear from the industry is the classification of obscene, lumping games in with pornography, and the requirements for games to be labeled. It could prompt a chilling effect on the creativity of the medium. Games are entertainment--they need to make money. If the commercial market for these games was restricted, what would be the point of making them? You'd be catering to a niche market.

The popularity of DOOM and Mortal Kombat lead to some of the first laws against games.
The popularity of DOOM and Mortal Kombat lead to some of the first laws against games.

"As content creators, if there is a chance that our games will appear in an 'Adults Only' section of game stores we will have to restrict what we create to avoid going out of business," said Price.

The law itself does not specify an "Adults Only" section, but it does require some labeling through a "solid white '18' outlined in black" 2x2 inches sticker on the box.

Several companies filed briefs defending games, including Activision and id Software.

"As a matter of content and form, video games are a projection of such traditional media as literature and film, both of which the First Amendment protects in full," reads the brief from id Software. "In fact, the themes on which video games rely are staples of fiction. This being true, this Court could not deny full protection to video games without making an artificial distinction among forms of art."

Naturally, others disagree. One brief represented the attorneys general of Louisiana, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Texas and Virginia.

"California’s law falls squarely within the limits on juvenile freedoms which this Court has upheld" reads the brief. "In fundamental realms--such as voting, marriage, contracts, privacy, travel, juries, sentencing, and speech--states may (and sometimes must) treat minors in ways that would be inconceivable for adults. California’s law is situated within this sensible and laudable tradition. If a state may restrict a minor’s right to vote or to marry, then it may also restrict her ability to purchase graphically violent video games."

How the court decides, and its ultimate impact on the industry, will be known soon enough.

All eyes turn towards Monday.

[U.S. Supreme Court image courtesy of cometstarmoon on Flickr]

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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Kazona

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Edited By Kazona

@MikeinSC said:

@DarkbeatDK said:

So, I'm thinking....

If a majority of video games become "adult only", it probably won't stop the industry (especially the big companies like EA and Activision) from milking their cash cows.

This means that retailers, like GameStop, will have to start changing their rules to be able to sell "adult only" products in order to keep up with the demand for new Call of Duties and Gears of Wars.

This will break down the barriers for the porn industry to radically expand into the various retailers, turning pornography into something you see as commonly as video games, encouraging the further exploitation of women, until it in 30 years time is common to see girls walk around topless.

Now, as a guy, I think that's super hot, but do YOU really want that to be our future?

Best Buy and Wal Mart will dump M titles within weeks if this is decided for Brown. That, right there, is a massive chunk of sales. There aren't enough sales to risk a kid buying the game. If theaters were held criminally liable for kids sneaking into movies when they were underage, you'd see "R" rated movies reduce immensely since major theater chains will just stop carrying those films as well. Trusting the government to do the right thing is rarely a good plan.

What evidence do you have that this will happen? How can you be so certain that stores will just outright cut themselves off from a huge source of income? Why have they not stopped selling beer since it's illegal to sell that to minors?

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DoctorWelch

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Edited By DoctorWelch

@darkdragonsoul99 said:

@DoctorWelch said:

@Gonmog

Wait a second. So all you people think that if they do this you are some how going to see M rated games disappear and people are going to stop stocking them on shelves or carrying them at all and then people will stop making them? Wow...hahahaha, that's seriously hilarious. I'm not trying to make fun of you, I just think its super funny and ridiculous that people actually think that's even a remote possibility. Also the fact that people are using porn as the only example is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Yeah it maybe isnt exactly the same, but you cant go see an R rated movie if you are under 17 so what is the difference with this?

There is no law against R rated movies only X rated movies porn. You cannot go out and buy a m rated game when your under 17 any more then you can go watch a R rated movie and for both the same reason. Market self regulation. A movie theater is not fined for minors getting in to see a R rated movie. R rated movies are not illegal to sell to a minor the stores simply have a policy of not selling to them. It's easier to get a R rated movie for a minor then a M rated game by the way this isn't just gonna effect M rated games T rated games are violent too. The reason we are using porn as the comparison is because it is the only comparison it is the only thing with such a law that falls under the entertainment sector.

It doesnt matter if there is a law for it or not, its the same thing. Plus maybe if the video game industry regulated themselves and specifically told retailers they want ID checked for games maybe this law wouldnt even have been proposed in the first place. Maybe thats an unreasonable thing to ask so now this law is going to just make them check ID which I dont see as that big of a deal. It just makes kids less likely to get M rated games into their possession. Also, even if the porn industry is the only one to compare this too I still dont see the big deal, its not like porn somehow doesnt exist or something crazy like that. People still smoke cigarettes, drink alchohol, pay money for porn, and so many people will still buy and play video games that acting like this is going to somehow kill the game industry is cray talk. The only way I can see this mattering even the slightest bit is if it is somehow now illegal for adults to buy a game and then a kid play it, but thats not what this law says.

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DoctorWelch

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@Gonmog: @OppressiveStink: Your arguments are both about retailers, something that is soon going to matter very little in this industry anyway. As I said in my original post, if the retailers want to stop stocking the M rated games than game companies just start putting everything out day one for download and lets see how they like it. There's already people talking about all digital future and I dont know about you guys, but I would love only buying things online. So that's why even if what you think may possibly happen does actually happen I dont think it really matters.

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darkdragonsoul99

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Edited By darkdragonsoul99
@DoctorWelch:  Umm I hate to sound rude but have you been living under a rock?  They do regulate themselves that is what the ESRB is.  They do ID check for the sale of M rated games That is the industry policy and it has been for years. In fact it's done more  effective then any other comparable thing in the medium  .   
 
Your hopes for a digital future is not going to come to pass ISP are trying to cap   bandwidth right now when your bandwidth is caped at 20G a month and you download a 20G game guess what you don't have any internet for the rest of the month. bandwidth caps will be the death of any hope of digital distribution of any kind movies video games or music.
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DoctorWelch

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@HotSauceMagik said:

@DoctorWelch: You are mostly correct in you ideas, but the fact is that any regulation that is government driven is a direct violation of our rights to consume media, whatever the "rating" may be. The game stores are doing a fine job restricting "M" rated media to younger folk and it should be left at that. Exceptions should be taken on a case-by-case basis. End of "epidemic". problem solved.

I completely agree with you. Hey, I'm not saying this law should happen, I'm just saying that if it does I'm not going to be getting all up in arms about it. I guess over the years I have just learned that stupid people are usually going to win in political fight because they can get other stupid people to agree with them so trying to be a voice of reason is a lost cause. So I've learned to pick my battles, and if they want to pass this thing I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not going to get my panties all up in a bunch about it either because I feel that it doesnt really matter.

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DoctorWelch

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@darkdragonsoul99 said:

@DoctorWelch: Umm I hate to sound rude but have you been living under a rock? They do regulate themselves that is what the ESRB is. They do ID check for the sale of M rated games That is the industry policy and it has been for years. In fact it's done more effective then any other comparable thing in the medium . Your hopes for a digital future is not going to come to pass ISP are trying to cap bandwidth right now when your bandwidth is caped at 20G a month and you download a 20G game guess what you don't have any internet for the rest of the month. bandwidth caps will be the death of any hope of digital distribution of any kind movies video games or music.

Read my first post before you respond and then you wont make yourself look silly for calling me out and then repeating something I already said. Plus I'm talking about forcing places to do it because it's way way easier to go buy an M rated game than it is to go see and R rated movie in a theater.

Also, just because they are going to cap bandwidth doesnt mean thats going to last for the next like 50 years or something. An time will come when you can buy everything digitally, trying to say that it wont is just sort of crazy.

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I_smell

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@darkdragonsoul99 said:

@I_smell: lol minors don't buy games they don't have money the majority don't anyway the parents do. The amount of minors that get by in a secrete shopper test. is 33% I'll put this in perspective for you 85% get into R rated movies. These statistics are not gonna change in the slightest if you institute a fine the only thing will change is the stores are gonna start losing money which is bad for the stores and the industry. Hell I believe the % that get by buying alcohol is 20%.

What I'm saying is that I think publishers are fighting fr this because it'd be prety bad news if high-school kids actually couldn't get Modern Warfare.

Whether they're buying it or their parents are, it doesn't matter, Activision and EA are just concerned about keeping that huge unseraged bracket of their audience open. And I think the whole "freedom of speech" "artistic integrity" thing is just to rally up some good will. That's the main point I'm making.

'course I've practically only read this article, so I'm not goin crazy over it or anything.

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darkdragonsoul99

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@DoctorWelch:  you call 33 % of secrete shoppers  getting a M rated game  and   85 %  of secret shopper getting into or buying a R rated movie easier . It's harder to get a M  rated game then to  get a R rated movie. Hell it's easier to get illegal drugs then it is to get a M rated game drug dealers don't card people period.  
 
@I_smell: The average gamer is 37 years old and has been playing for 12 years. Eighty-two percent of gamers are 18 years of age or older.  School kids are not where the money is. 
 
:edited a bunch dam I should really not try and write when I'm tired. 
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mackgyver

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The way I see it, video games are as much entertainment than any other media, be it movies, music, television, radio etc. To choose just video games from all that is discrimination.
Whatever the ruling may be in the end, it should apply to all forms of entertainment and not just video games.

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I hate this. I hate the fact that people are so fucking dumb as to what is going on. Dumb as you could get.

Why do we need the law in the first place?!?! Lets start with that. Name one god damn study that says M rated games are bad for kids. Show us something that says this law is needed. Parents could get in trouble for giving there own kid a M rated game. They same way they get in trouble for showing there kid a porn!

@DoctorWelch: The posters here, we are the fucking minority!!!!!!!! Dont you get that?!?!?! The biggest game profits come from big chains like gamestop and Walmart, Best Buy. For the time being and for as long as we have any right to tell, that is going to be that way for a very long time.

And with ISP putting out caps on bandwidth, do you really fucking think they will lesson there chances of a game being bought because people dont want to "waste" there down load Gigs on it? I mean fucking really?!?! Games are getting LARGER not smaller. We are not talking about DLC, or smaller games that are made to be quick 15 buck games. We are talking about the big games, LA Noire, COD, GTA, Dead Space, RDR,Mass Effect, hell even Batman, and other Teen games could fall under this law. As they do have "realistic" fighting and people dieing....

@Kazona: It is not that huge of a income. If you had read any of the posts before. M rated games account for 30 odd % for all game sales. Profits on games are not much. There is a low profit margin for games. Why do you think they are always the same price for the most part not matter what store you buy them from? If there is a 1000 dollar fine for selling one game to a minor there profit is gone. It could happen. This is a falls under the same line as theft and selling cigs/beer to a minor. They plan for it. And this is the second part of your question. They keep them items because they make them a lot of cash. the profit margin is very fucking high. Games not so much, M rated games much much less. They will not risk it. You may just not know understand how a chain can control the market, but they do. Using video games as a point, cause that seems to be the only thing people here understand.

Even though i said it before, we have DVD case size game cases because of walmart. They did not want to pay for the new desplays for the Gamecube cases Nintendo wanted to bring to the states. So guess what happen?

This is besides the fact they are trying to take some freedoms away. That seems to be the point people are missing.

STOP FUCKING BENDING OVER AND TAKING IT LITTLE AT A FUCKING TIME!!!! FOR FUCK SAKE THEY CAN ALREADY LOOK INSIDE YOUR HOME WHEN EVER THEY FUCKING WHAT! THEY CAN SEE YOUR TINY DICK WHEN YOU GO THE THE AIRPORT WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THEM?!?!?!

Game makers are worried about this...that means you as game players sure as hell should be worried about this. For fuck sake. Stop looking at the small picture. This is not about a rating on a box. This is about who will be putting that rating on the box, who will not be selling the rating in stores, who will not be making games with that rating.

This is not as simple as, O if it has a M rating it is illegal to sell to kids. There is WAAAAAAAY more to it.This very well could effect every game player in the world. We may not get games like LA Noire anymore. Very mature story driven game. With some very realistic graphic imagery.

At this point, it don't even matter to me that the law has very little chance to pass to more, it matters more to me that people just seem to not care. Or really worse yet. Not understand what is going on. And I really am pissing myself off that i am just plain not smart enough to be able to write everything down in a clear manner that will make it clear.

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darkdragonsoul99

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Edited By darkdragonsoul99
@Gonmog: I wouldn't bother with DoctorWelch  any more he didn't even seem to know that stores card for M rated games and the industry regulates  it's self. I guess the ESRB hasn't gotten word out in the 17 years they have been around. funny how people know what a M rating is but doesn't know that the ESRB  is the industry's self regulatory body. 
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@Gonmog: Haha woah there buddy, calm down a bit. Take a sip of cold refreshing water and breath deeply. Like I've been trying to explain, you are making way to big a deal out of this.

This is not as simple as, O if it has a M rating it is illegal to sell to kids. There is WAAAAAAAY more to it.This very well could effect every game player in the world. We may not get games like LA Noire anymore. Very mature story driven game. With some very realistic graphic imagery.

Yes, it is as simple as that. If you want to worry yourself to death about it than be my guest, but us reasonable people will be over here enjoying life because we arent freaking out about things that we have no control over especially when we cant actually be sure of the exact effects anyway.

Plus fuck it, I'm sick of shooting guys. I'm sick of doing the same old god damn thing in every game I play. So maybe if this does happen it will force companies to try to come up with actual good ideas for games rather than just make the same old shit everyone else does. But you know what? We have no idea whats going to happen if this thing does pass, but thats the whole point. Trying to act like a mulitmillion...wait no, multibillion dollar industry is going to just implode because of one little law that makes little kids unable to buy games that may be too mature for them is probably the ridiculous and insane thing I have heard in a long long time. So everyone needs to quit their bitching and calm down for a second. Than maybe instead or ranting and raving about it like the kids they think are too immature to play these games, we can go about this reasonably and maybe they will actually listen to something that we (people that actually play games) has to say.

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Edited By Gonmog
@DoctorWelch You still think it's just about games. I'm sorry.
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@I_smell said:
It's PEGI who rate games, there's no U or PG. The BBFC only come in to hand out 18s on games like Grand Theft Auto or Modern Warfare.
While PEGI are now doing more ratings of games, PEGI ratings still are not, to my knowledge enforceable by law here in the UK.  So a retailer could technically still sell a PEGI 18 rated game to a minor but not a BBFC rated one.
 
You are correct though in that the PEGI system is different.  They use 3, 7, 12, 16 and 18 as ratings.
 
Working in a video games store myself it's a bit of a nightmare the whole ratings system.  I mean its a "Challenge 25" system now so if you don't look 25 you WILL be be asked for ID for an 18 rated game.  Which more often than not just leads to kids in their early 20's hurling abuse at you over the counter because they don't think they should have to carry ID to get an 18 rated game. 
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@Gonmog: I kind of see your point and I've been saying this about the UK for years, that it's not the government that needs to do the regulating of who plays what any more than sticking a recommended age rating on the game.  The Parents need more education about what their kids are actually playing and then leave it up to them to decide. 
 
The UK seems to have a bit of a nanny government just now.  They are for example wanting to raise the cost of alcohol in Scotland to a fixed minimum price per alcoholic unit to try and curb the drinking culture that Scotland has and the health problems that are associated with it.

Sure restrict the sale of games that are violent to just the people who are 18+, that makes total common sense.  I wouldn't like my kid to be able to walk into a video games store and pick up GTA but if I thought he/she was mature enough to handle it in my eyes and I'm happy to buy it for them, then thats my decision as a parent. 
 
More education for parents I say... less governments saying "oh you can't have this, it has really bad swearing in it".
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@OwlPen0r said:

I'm not American, so I can't really comment on the constitution or how games are regulated over there. But if this bill is going to make video games subject to government classification instead of independent regulation, so what? Here in Britain, the BBFC regulate all video games, and they are a government body. They just slap a rating on the box and are done with it. It doesn't get put anywhere different in the store or anything, you could find GTA4 next to Viva Pinata and nobody bats an eyelid. Is it different for America?

I work selling games in the UK, and if I sell an 18 rated game to a kid younger than 18, and get caught, I get a fine and a criminal record. This seems like another classic example of law makers in the US drastically overthinking quite a simple problem.

Maybe if they looked outside their own insular country, they'd see the answer right in front of their eyes.

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Edited By Gonmog
@matti00 I understand your countrys have different constutions. But we have ours and our own bill of rights. What some people are not seeming to grasp is they are for what ever reason trying to bypass ours. That is a major deal.
And as for games it will be effected in how the are made. Take the largest market of game buyers. Make a small portion of games made illegal to provide to minors. Big chain stores will get fined for selling to minors. This well happen. The selling happens in a rush or a mastake or a new worker that's nervous.
One fine of 1000 dollars would take away the Profits of a lot of games sold. They will just not risk it. Take games that have the high rating that can be fined and not carry them.

Game producers will just insist all big budget games will have to fall under the rating that is not finable. Games like la noir just won't get made. To much cost to little return if not in a big chain store.
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Edited By osufan21

Video games should be allowed to be sold, its not right to restrict them. I, personally, agree with Ted Price. I respect him for speaking out on the issue. Honestly, if you put it in perspective, video games are different from marriage, voting, and such. You really cant use that lame excuse. Violence only matters to who is looking at it. Clearly, a older man from a different generation is going to look down on violence in video games but the current generation doesnt see it that way. I'd even bet a good bit of money, the people who call for these idiotic laws have zero hand-eye coordination and havent even played any "violent" games. Just like people in congress dont read the bills they pass. 

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@Gonmog
No, I'm sorry, but that is total bollocks.  Big chains will adapt to new laws and will simply train their staff to ID people for video games the same way that they would for cigarettes or alcohol.
 
Games designers will not tone down games just because they know someone in a store may get ID'd to buy it.  If that was the case they wouldn't make 18 rated games just now as is because someone somewhere might get fined for selling it.
 
I face this issue... every... single... day at work.  We still sell 18 games and we are an independently run company who can't afford to pay fines.  The trick is, like I said, educating your staff to know when to ask people.  It's common sense mate.
 
Your worrying over nothing.
 
I could understand your point about the government telling people what they could and couldn't play, but if your argument is based mainly on big chain stores not wanting to sell video games as a staff member could get a fine and they get their knuckles rapped for it.... no, sorry, bollocks.
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Edited By osufan21

Just for the people not from the United States, some people enjoy not having government regulations and the governments hand everywhere also some people would rather have a small central government and more of a state government focused country. But some would rather have a bigger government with more control. So where the issue boils down to, is whether YOU (The individual) wants the government telling you whether you can buy a video game or not. This is a big deal for Americans, as youre probably reading some want the law and some dont.  

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@FoolInjection Small store vs huge fucking chain that spreads across the country employing more people then has any right too. The pay fines for cigs and alch. And the keep them because the profit is very high. Not so with games. M rated games are really low on there profit radar.
In other words you have no fucking idea how controlling chain stores are here. Your lucky you have a little independent store there. Cause here it would get ate up.
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FoolInjection

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@Gonmog: If they are anything like the massive chain stores here in the UK that use video games as a "loss leader" to entice people into the stores for the game, sell it at a loss and the reap the profits back on other goods and services while they are in there... selling the likes of Black Ops at £22 compared to the RRP of £49.99 to get people to shop... they must feel really butt-hurt about the entire experience.  I'm surprised then that so many big chain stores and supermarkets in the UK are starting to do pre-owned games and trade-ins if they clearly aren't in it to make money as there is no profit in it like you said.
 
I'll also have you know that our store makes a fairly tidy profit and has a really nice customer base.  Probably because the staff actually care about the product they are selling and know a fair bit about it.  That's what being a specialist store is all about.  Something that people in the USA have made money off for centuries.

However, I will say, judging by your language I guess you've played a lot of M rated games in your time, as you seem unable to conduct yourself in an argument without using a string of expletives. Your use of the F-word is astounding.  You must make your parents proud with your command of the English language.
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We already have legally enforceable rating here in the UK and it hasn't been much of a problem. The only issue I have, if this goes through, is cases like Manhunt 2 which was rejected for classification by the BBFC (basically a ban as it is illegal to sell an unrated game). That's still only a minor issue as there's already an AO rating which is an effective ban as MS, Nintendo and Sony don't allow game with that rating to be licensed for their systems, so it might as well be unrated.

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Gonmog

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@FoolInjection they are nothing pike that in fact. They sell them at full cost for a very long time. And i have to wonder what profit your talking about cause here you sell games at a 40% profit. At 60 bucks a store makes 24 dollars. That is chump change to things that give them 55% and higher.
I will not give my resume out here. But I have some very good understanding of costs to profits and what not.
You can knock my langange all you want.
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Gonmog

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Edited By Gonmog
@FoolInjection Where is my mobile edit button?
It really don't matter. My mastery of the English langage sucks. I can't spell my vocabulary is b way below what it should be. Iv said this a few times in this very thread However my understanding of business and numbers are very high. Has to be.
Politics understanding is also something I know a bit about. And that is what this is really about in my eyes.
Past history with how porn was handled and seeing what movies go through to make sure the can get into the most exposure say that what I am saying is very logic based and a sound theory.
This is freedom of speech that is all but being attacted.
And it seems everyone us forgetting that. It's a small thing to be sure but all of it adds up.
Game developers are watching this closely. Shouldnt you?


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I_smell

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@darkdragonsoul99 said:

@I_smell: The average gamer is 37 years old and has been playing for 12 years. Eighty-two percent of gamers are 18 years of age or older. School kids are not where the money is. :edited a bunch dam I should really not try and write when I'm tired.

Yea that's something people say a lot, but it doesn't hold water when you go to work the next day and remember that you're the only person there who's bought a videogame this year. Even the adults who do buy games only ever buy one or two a year, and half the time they're buying em for their kids.

I mean think about it: If the average gamer is 37 then that means for every 7-yr-old playing a videogame, there's also a 67-yr-old on the other side. They must be classing "gamers" as people who paly slot-machines, or people who buy games for their kids or something, cos practically every kid in high-school has an Xbox n that's not true with adults.

Anyway what we're talking about here is games like Mortal Kombat and God of War n Modern Warfare. I remember how popular Vice City was when I was in school, so I'm guessing kids are still a huge slice of the market for 18+ games.

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matti00

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@Gonmog said:

@matti00 I understand your countrys have different constutions. But we have ours and our own bill of rights. What some people are not seeming to grasp is they are for what ever reason trying to bypass ours. That is a major deal. And as for games it will be effected in how the are made. Take the largest market of game buyers. Make a small portion of games made illegal to provide to minors. Big chain stores will get fined for selling to minors. This well happen. The selling happens in a rush or a mastake or a new worker that's nervous. One fine of 1000 dollars would take away the Profits of a lot of games sold. They will just not risk it. Take games that have the high rating that can be fined and not carry them. Game producers will just insist all big budget games will have to fall under the rating that is not finable. Games like la noir just won't get made. To much cost to little return if not in a big chain store.

Making it illegal to sell violent games to kids doesn't mean people still can't make violent games. I think it should be illegal to sell age inappropriate games to kids. I wouldn't want my 8yo son playing Manhunt or Condemned. And you completely missed the point of what I was saying.

I almost agree with you, I think they're going about it the entirely wrong way. Fining the store will have little effect on the sales assistants selling the products, as it doesn't really affect them. I was saying that if I sell age inappropriate material to minors, I get fined, and I get a criminal record. Not the store, me. You can guarantee that if the fine was on the head of the assistant not the shop you wouldn't be able to get stuff you don't look old enough for, as is the case where I work.

Now, as for stores dropping mature games, you must still be of the mindset that games are exclusively for kids. As it happens, 18-30yo males is the biggest market for these companies when it comes to video games. You think they're just gonna go "fuck you, we won't sell you this shit any more in case you're 12"? And saying that games like LA Noire won't get made because of laws like this is completely retarded, because that game was made in Australia, and they have the strictest laws for age ratings on games in the western world.

/debate.

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Gonmog

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@matti00 What's the % of games sold there vs the us? And how many hoops do game makers have to jump through to get games into Australia in the first place? And wait isn't that like the worst place to live if you want to play games? I could have sworn iv read some horror stories on mk
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@I_smell said:

I mean think about it: If the average gamer is 37 then that means for every 7-yr-old playing a videogame, there's also a 67-yr-old on the other side. They must be classing "gamers" as people who paly slot-machines, or people who buy games for their kids or something, cos practically every kid in high-school has an Xbox n that's not true with adults.
 

I thought the average age was somewhere between 28 and 34. That doesn't matter, let me help you with the problem of your understanding of averages. I am not trying to be mean, just informative. There is nothing wrong with not understanding something. If you have 1000 gamers at the age of 20 and 100 gamers at the age of 10, the average is not 15. You add the age of all gamers (in this case it's 21000) and divide by the total number of gamers (1100 in this case) which is 19.09 rounded or just over 19. A quick synopsis of what I mean is that most gamers are around the age of what is average. The 60 year old gamer is probably as rare as the 3 year old one.
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@Grayvern said:

Fines would never affect anyone, a few thousand dollars for an individual chain store is fine, mainly due to the fact that fines like like this almost always cost much more for authorities to enforce, and almost impossible to prove an attitude of corporate neglect and fine parent companies for large amounts of money.

The issue is how this sets legal and legislative precedent discrimination against games.

Critique of this based on first amendment rights is naive though, children in the west effectively have only the right to be owned by their parents or the state not themselves.

Given that the fine would be several times more profit than they make per copy, yes, fines would limit their desire to stock these games in the first place. If a store has to guarantee sales of 1,000 copies to make up for a fine for selling ONE game to a minor --- then the risk is not remotely worth it. If an R-rated game sells 6M and even .5% of them are sold to minors (going with the fine listed in the law), the fine would be larger than the chain could possibly make off that game's sale combined.
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@ninjalegend:I know how averages work, I'm saying there has to be way more older gamers than younger ones for the average to land on 37. Even if it is a huge density from 35-40, common sense tells me that's not true. Cos there's a fffuuuuucking lot of kids who play games, and I've only ever met about 3 adults who do, so someone's gotta be fudging the numbers on that one.

Anyway let's forget this averages-survey stuff, cos we're really just talking about whether or not parents are buying their kids Grand Theft Auto and Modern Warfare; and they are! So my main point is that publishers are scared of losing that.

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@sickVisionz said:
@MikeinSC said:
Best Buy and Wal Mart will dump M titles within weeks if this is decided for Brown.
I don't buy this for a second.  The idea of Best Buy refusing to carry Call of Duty and all the other M-rated games that make them money seems crazy and I can't see them doing it.  At worst, I think they just won't sell it to children. 
 
I guess for me, I'm an adult and I deal with a banned from selling to kids item all the time: alcohol.  Grocery stores still sell beer.  Gas stations still sell beer.  Wal-mart still sells beer.  Restaurants still serve beer.  There are stores dedicated to selling nothing but alcohol.  They just don't sell it to children.  The fines and punishments for selling alcohol to kids are way worse than the $1,000 fine proposed in this bill yet there are people still willing to sell it publicly.  I don't see why this bill would be any different.  The only impact that I see is that it will make things really bad for those in the business of selling m-rated content to children, something retailers, devs, and publishers always say they are against and don't do yet get really up in arms about when it comes to actually standing behind.
Their margins are really, really small (larger than Wal-Mart on the average product in-store, but tiny) and that is why pre-owned games are such a huge thing for them. If they make $12 per game (which is optimistic), they have to sell almost 1,000 games to make up the loss for a SINGLE violation. That makes bad odds for the chain. Call of Duty Black Ops sold, roughly, 18M copies. It would take 216,000 violations to wipe out the entire combined retail take from that game (or, roughly, 1.2% of all sales being sold to minors illegally --- which would be a phenomenally low number).
 
 
"It's illegal to sell beer to minors. That still gets carried everywhere. And as I stated previously, there are plenty of laws similar to this in other countries, and games sell just fine there."
 
Minors buy beer illegally at FAR greater numbers than they buy games. Always have, always will. They also sell so much more beer than games that they can afford better lobbyists to keep the politicians off of their backs. 
 
The closest parallel is movies. If kids entering "R" rated movies led to $1,000 fines --- no theater chain would ever carry a single "R" rated movie.
 
I Smell: "

What I'm saying is that I think publishers are fighting fr this because it'd be prety bad news if high-school kids actually couldn't get Modern Warfare.

Whether they're buying it or their parents are, it doesn't matter, Activision and EA are just concerned about keeping that huge unseraged bracket of their audience open. And I think the whole "freedom of speech" "artistic integrity" thing is just to rally up some good will. That's the main point I'm making."
 
No, they think chains will stop carrying "M" games if this passes. It's like saying that if the movie industry fought making "R" rated movie violations able to be fined criminally, it's because they want kids to see inappropriate movies and not for the more logical business and, well, simple liberty reasons.
 
Sacrificing this right is not going to satisfy pathetic busybodies like Yee.

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@I_smell said:

@ninjalegend:I know how averages work, I'm saying there has to be way more older gamers than younger ones for the average to land on 37. Even if it is a huge density from 35-40, common sense tells me that's not true. Cos there's a fffuuuuucking lot of kids who play games, and I've only ever met about 3 adults who do, so someone's gotta be fudging the numbers on that one.

Anyway let's forget this averages-survey stuff, cos we're really just talking about whether or not parents are buying their kids Grand Theft Auto and Modern Warfare; and they are! So my main point is that publishers are scared of losing that.

This wouldn't impact them at all in that case --- given that adults are still quite legally able to buy their kids games.
 
@matti00: "Making it illegal to sell violent games to kids doesn't mean people still can't make violent games. I think it should be illegal to sell age inappropriate games to kids. I wouldn't want my 8yo son playing Manhunt or Condemned. And you completely missed the point of what I was saying."
 
But isn't it your job to watch what your kids play? I manage to do that. Why should the government do it for anybody? Making it where the risk of financial loss in even carrying a game makes a retailer unwilling to carry it --- you have a de facto banning of those kinds of games. The games that sell the most, ironically, have the biggest issue of kids wanting to get them.
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deactivated-5c7ea8553cb72

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Mmmmmm.......people are vry srs about this issue.

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wickedsc3

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This whole topic is stupid. Stop wasting our tax dollars on this bullshit! Cali especially, they are in debt up to there eyeballs. The esrb does a fine job. How about you get our country out of debt then i might trust you to police our video games!!!!

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@FoolInjection:  
  
I think something everyone always seems to miss here is chain stores already ID people for video games.  
 
There is almost pure profit in used games you don't have to give anyone else a cut and your paying $5.00 for the game and selling it for $30.00 . The profit margin on new games is far different 
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Perhaps I am nieve, but why is it so difficult for parents to monitor what their kids are doing/playing? You bought the video game, why didnt you look at the box to see what was in it. Its right there on the label. Now you expect the goverment to regulate everything you expose your child to so that you dont have to. If you didnt want to take responsibility for your children, why did you have them?

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The average gamer is 37 years old and has been playing for 12 years.  Seventy-six percent of all games sold in 2010 were rated "E" for Everyone, "T" for Teen, or "E10+" for Everyone 10+. For more information on game ratings, please see www.esrb.org.What people need to realize that Mature rated games are not marketed towards minors.  The Average game is 60 dollars so more then likely a minor is not going to be able to purchase the game , Most homes have a television which enables easier access to violent  content.  If you ever go into a Game Stop you will see that they wont give violent games to minors without parental consent. 

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@vdortizo said:
Mmm...  Edit: As I always say; the constitution of the United States is just too old for the world we live in right now... it needs to be reviewed with a critical eye for today's society...
It is ignorant ppl like yourself why the USA is in the current perpetual downward spiral it has been in for years.  You would do good to study just what made this country so great to begin with, and to move back to its roots so to speak, is what would return it to greatness. 
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@vdortizo said:
Mmm...  Edit: As I always say; the constitution of the United States is just too old for the world we live in right now... it needs to be reviewed with a critical eye for today's society...
There's nothing wrong with the constitution. It's changed and will continue to change with the bill of rights and the amendments. A surprising amount of the original constitution applies as well today as it did in the 18th century. The problem lies with the interpretation of the document, where people tend to start arguements with "well, they didnt mean for this to mean that..."
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Hey kids, wish you were old enough?

Nah, I'm kidding.

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BeautifulSpaceCowboy

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Nice summary, Patrick. We will see what happens tomorrow.

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deactivated-57d3a53d23027

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I think violence is a great deal of magnitude worse than sex (sex is what almost everyone has done and will do), but violence depicted in films and games is fictional, whereas porn is real. So real violence is worse than porn (real sex), and you don't see real violence unless you watch the news. Therefore we are comparing fictional violence to real sex and obviously real sex is worse for kids to witness (especially considering what most porn-stars consent themselves to being involved in has no romance).

Stores should not be able to sell violent games to minors, and anyone who argues with that is being a moron or greedy. That said, I think ID software has stepped in to defend our favourite medium because its more than just lost sales from not being able to sell kids their violent games, it's because this court case could have much greater repercussions to the medium and the way it gets advertised.

After all that, why should games be treated differently to film or television? The very idea is outrageous (& that goes for both sides). Sure because the player is actually controlling the events on-screen and is viewing it to longer periods than they would with film, doesn't mean that games should be treated so harshly. There is low implications on the greater society from the media its adult people consume, except for snuff films and child abuse films which are already illegal (as they should be) in every place on the planet.

If any of you are offended by my statement I probably made a mistake with my sentence structure, I think it's a pretty logical idea that most people would agree with.

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@afrofools said:

I think violence is a great deal of magnitude worse than sex (sex is what almost everyone has done and will do), but violence depicted in films and games is fictional, whereas porn is real. So real violence is worse than porn (real sex), and you don't see real violence unless you watch the news. Therefore we are comparing fictional violence to real sex and obviously real sex is worse for kids to witness (especially considering what most porn-stars consent themselves to being involved in has no romance).

Stores should not be able to sell violent games to minors, and anyone who argues with that is being a moron or greedy. That said, I think ID software has stepped in to defend our favourite medium because its more than just lost sales from not being able to sell kids their violent games, it's because this court case could have much greater repercussions to the medium and the way it gets advertised.

After all that, why should games be treated differently to film or television? The very idea is outrageous (& that goes for both sides). Sure because the player is actually controlling the events on-screen and is viewing it to longer periods than they would with film, doesn't mean that games should be treated so harshly. There is low implications on the greater society from the media its adult people consume, except for snuff films and child abuse films which are already illegal (as they should be) in every place on the planet.

If any of you are offended by my statement I probably made a mistake with my sentence structure, I think it's a pretty logical idea that most people would agree with.

I agree completely. All this will do is put distinct limitations on the marketability of games. Retailers will essentially take the "family friendly" route and shun titles marked with their "scarlet letter."
 
This will not prevent parents from purchasing these games any more than the current methods in place, except where it has clear influence on deteriorating the sales of these titles in general (aka, availability and, eventually, lack of production).  People will still buy cancer-causing cigarettes, people will still buy inappropriate content (be it games, movies, whatever). It doesn't matter if you slap a GIANT LABEL on it, the label does nothing.
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darkdragonsoul99

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@afrofools: violence is no more a stranger to the human condition then sex. But that is besides the point the point is there are NO exceptions allowed in the constitution it does not say .
 
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech unless it makes sense or to protect the children.  
 
If it was up to me porn would be legal too for the exact same reason. 
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veektarius

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I am in favor of a law to prohibit the sale of violent video games to minors without a parent or guardian present.

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deactivated-57a1372cc3e61

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@Veektarius said:
I am in favor of a law to prohibit the sale of violent video games to minors without a parent or guardian present.
This. 
 
I have no idea why any adult would oppose this law, or even care for that matter.
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The court has overturned the California law, saying that it is an unconstitutional restriction of free speech.

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Welp, that happened. Not that a law would have changed anything. Ignorant parents would still have bought their kids all the violent video games they asked for. And they still would have bitched about it. At least this way our right are not skull ducked.