Maybe Go Ahead and Download That Fez Patch After All

bunch of pricks. they really need to change the way they deal with xbox live games for the next console . .

Yeah so............ when will this be on Steam?

@Hailinel said:

@big_jon

@MordeaniisChaos said:

Wow, that's fucking stupid.

@big_jon said:

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Except technically speaking, the game was pretty sloppy. Buggy, performed poorly, stuff like that.

It had issues, but the internet likes to focus on the negative too much.

That's funny, because when the game was still new, everyone and their dog was tripping over themselves to praise Fez and its supposed genius. The negativity is just a result of people coming back down to Earth.

What's more funny is that you are assuming that the people who praised it are the same that "dislike" it now.

If you're actually going to argue that the internet isn't an unnecessarily negative place where people like to poo poo on everything the majority of the time, and blow things way out of proportion, like Mass Effect 3's ending, then you are a crazy person.

It sure is easy to bitch and whine about the quality of things when you put no work into them right? I would assume that this guy has done almost everything that is humanly possible to make a great game, yet people will still scoff and shit on his effort because they can, and it is easy.

It would be nice if the lesson learned was that whether you are a large or small company, testing and quality assurance must be vital parts to your budget and development cycle.

I fear the only lesson learned will be, "boo hiss Microsoft!"

@Parsnip: Isn't that what being a modern gamer is all about now, reading a few articles and deciding you know all about how the business works because you buy a few games (mostly used) over the course of a year, and suddenly you know how everything works in the world of video game development and publishing.

That's fucking incredible that it costs any significant amount to release a patch.

I think Tim Schafer said an update for one of their games cost them $40,000, blame M$ for those fees.

@zombiesatemycereal said:

Paying for patches is super dumb, but i'm sure they made enough money off the sales of Fez to be able to afford a patch. Deliberately not fixing your games problems is pretty shitty.

Oh, "you're sure" they made enough, those couple of dudes, to be able to shell out forty thousand dollars. Well, i'll just call them and let them know the good news. They probably lost the money in their couch cushions, and will thank you profusely.

Duder, they're not some giant developer, and this wasn't a fluke thing like with Minecraft. Fish himself came out and said (well before this announcement here) that the game was successful, but it hadn't made them rich or anything. It jsut kept them solvent and maybe made up a bit for the five years of labor put in. Try to know what's up before making baseless assertion.

Over/under on Phil Fish clearly not feeling the love, and taking his business elsewhere next time? Say Steam or perhaps OUYA.

(Oh who am I kidding, "next time" in Fish world will be 2038)

either way, I get the feeling that Microsoft does not deserve that kind of money for such a simple patch

In a way, it's good that we finally have an example to point to of why XBLA/PSN's $40k patches are a problem. I would buy this game if it were fixed, but will I buy it when the latest patch has a well publicized game breaking bug? No, I don't. Not even if it is a small chance.

It'd be better for Microsoft to make money by selling games to customers rather than extorting it from developers, if you ask me. I'm sure even with a much lower fee, or none, developers would not patch 5 times a day and destroy the stability of the system. They have better things to do, patches don't earn money - only good will for future games.

It'd be nice if we lived in a world where every developer releases perfect products that never need a patch, but... games are not as simple as they once were. Fish did make a buggy game, but come on, he's hardly the first. I don't think a shoestring operation should have to give up the price of a luxury car just for the privilege to improve their product, and the XBLA service overall. It's a bit different for Konami to pay that money to fix their mistakes than it is for Polytron.

Hope it goes to another platform, and achieves better success. The game still has good exposure in the community, for now.

So first he says PCs aren't for gaming, and then he praises Steam?

What?

Paying for patches is super dumb, but i'm sure they made enough money off the sales of Fez to be able to afford a patch. Deliberately not fixing your games problems is pretty shitty.

40k to check if an update doesn't brick the console is bs.

This just makes me happier and happier I sold my xbox and have switched to Steam/PC gaming. I eagerly await for Fez to show up on the Steam store.

Also I'm fairly certain a buggy product that gets patched to stability is always better than a product that cant' be patched because the developer can't afford it....$40,000 seems...excessive.

@Alex said:

@DeanoXD: He's literally the company's mouthpiece. He's the only spokesperson for that company.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm not sure what is offensive about the term "mouthpiece" especially when he is exactly that. If you had said "loudmouth" (while somewhat true), then I would have understood.

@wilsonk said:

@eccentrix: If he isn't patching Fez because he doesn't have forty grand then he should say that instead of trying to shift the blame onto Microsoft.

That's how I interpreted this thing. He's saying he's sorry, but he doesn't have the money Microsoft is asking for.

@MordeaniisChaos said:

Wow, that's fucking stupid.

@big_jon said:

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Except technically speaking, the game was pretty sloppy. Buggy, performed poorly, stuff like that.

It had issues, but the internet likes to focus on the negative too much.

@eccentrix: If he didn't like the XBLA terms with regards to certification fees there are other avenues to release indie games on that don't charge ridiculous fees. If he isn't patching Fez because he doesn't have forty grand then he should say that instead of trying to shift the blame onto Microsoft.

People have been awfully quick to deem the $40,000 patch fee "reasonable." What's so reasonable about it? If other download platforms are able to function perfectly well without such a fee (not even getting into the other bullshit hoops to jump through on Microsoft's platform), in what way is Microsoft's fee reasonable?

That fee was designed and implemented in a world where indie games were barely a thing. The $40,000 patch fee is something a big publisher can just easily swallow. When it's two guys pouring their hearts into a game, $40,000 is basically impossible.

Whatever. The Steam release will come out, it'll be a runaway success a la Alan Wake and Super Meat Boy, and maybe some of that cash money will go towards fixing the game on the gimped XBLA platform. Microsoft should do some real soul searching.

@MordeaniisChaos said:

Wow, that's fucking stupid.

@big_jon said:

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Except technically speaking, the game was pretty sloppy. Buggy, performed poorly, stuff like that.

It had issues, but the internet likes to focus on the negative too much.

I like that we're supposed to feel bad for Phil Fish. Maybe he wouldn't have to pay to patch if his game wasn't busted.

@VargasPrime: I suppose it's a warning to other small developers that these patches do cost money and you should take greater care in coding your game and managing your time.

This is not how you do business. If you want returning customers, you either fix your shit or compensate your mistakes somehow. Saying things like "it costs too much to fix it" is another way of saying "Fuck you, we want our money. Sucks to be you, customer."

I have bought XBLA games before and none of the had technical problems as big as in Fez. Those that did have noticeable bugs, fixed them with (in a few cases multiple) patches. What Polytron and Phill Fish are saying that they are not to be trusted in the future.

I wont be doing business with them in the future.

Wow, that's fucking stupid.

@big_jon said:

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

Except technically speaking, the game was pretty sloppy. Buggy, performed poorly, stuff like that.

Oh hell yea I would definitely throw some money Polytron's way if it came to Steam.

@ike7779: I heard months and months ago that the dev of Spelunky had at least planned on an eventual PC re-release once the XBLA version was complete since it's kinda an overhaul of the original free PC game. So wait a bit and you may get both of these fine games on PC :)

I don't know man. I want to side with Fish, as the save file thing doesn't sound like something you could have reasonably tested for if it affects that few people.

But... I still forked over money for this game, and would like it to work. And it was released in kind of a shitty state that required the patch in the first place.

@Cirdain said:

@bvilleneuve said:

Look, I don't like to use this word a lot, because it's so often used to dismiss legitimate complaints, but a lot of you guys are really butthurt about stuff Phil Fish has said. I can't speak to the Japanese game industry one, but I'm a PC gaming-ass PC gamer, and I'm not going to get all flustered because Phil Fish once said something a little rude about PC gaming. Fez is going to get released on the PC and I'm going to buy it, and the fact that he may or may not feel exactly the same way as I do about the platform doesn't even enter into the equation. Obviously I can't tell you how to feel or how to spend your money, but expecting Phil Fish to apologize or else you won't buy his game is childish behavior.

I agree with you.

YOU'RE STUPED ><

No, I kid. I agree with you as well.

How many people did this affect? It says about 1% right? Phil Fish or not, measuring the cost to pay for the patch + the time to develop the patch against how many people it actually affects, I don't think many people would opt to pay for the patch. Especially considering that their profit from the game doesn't guarantee them to be rich. If they had time and money, of course they would. I just don't think that Phil Fish is trying to be an asshole or greedy about this incident. Also remember that there are two of them (right?) or at least that is what their website states.

A lot of people also act as if the game is completely broken, like it won't even work at all, patch or not. From what I hear, you can still beat the game.

I'll wait for the hopefully coming Steam version, because many have said it is a good game and I've always been interested in it.

I hope they release Fez on more platforms. I was finally going to pick up a 360 in the near future mainly for Fez, and Spelunky but maybe I can wait for PC releases now.

@iAmJohn said:

@damnable_fiend

@iAmJohn said:

@deerokus said:

@iAmJohn: Well the main reason was that he thinks PCs are for spreadsheets.

It's almost like he had this game that he really wanted you to buy on 360 instead of waiting for it to potentially come out on PC or something. I thought PC gamers are supposed to be smart and able to read between the painfully obvious lines.

sure, but other developers release games on xbla exclusively without feeling the need to make stupid comments about other platforms to justify their decision.

Sure, but I also don't care because I'm not an idiot.

I don't see how paying attention to what a developer says makes me an idiot

Gamers, not Gamera, stupid phone. Though PC Gamera would be awesome to see.

@bvilleneuve said:

Look, I don't like to use this word a lot, because it's so often used to dismiss legitimate complaints, but a lot of you guys are really butthurt about stuff Phil Fish has said. I can't speak to the Japanese game industry one, but I'm a PC gaming-ass PC gamer, and I'm not going to get all flustered because Phil Fish once said something a little rude about PC gaming. Fez is going to get released on the PC and I'm going to buy it, and the fact that he may or may not feel exactly the same way as I do about the platform doesn't even enter into the equation. Obviously I can't tell you how to feel or how to spend your money, but expecting Phil Fish to apologize or else you won't buy his game is childish behavior.

I agree with you.

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Dawg, I don't think we can go down the road of calling Fez a hipster game. It's not super pretentious like something made by thatgamecompany (for the record, I loved Journey but fuck Flower). You may see Phil Fish as a hipster douche, but I don't think Fez is all that hipster-y. Although a Fez does seem something like a hipster would wear to be hipster-y...

Also, in the words of Donnie Darko, Microsoft can go "suck a fuck" because this is their fault, and between this and Dawnguard, fuck a Microsoft.

@bvilleneuve said:

Look, I don't like to use this word a lot, because it's so often used to dismiss legitimate complaints, but a lot of you guys are really butthurt about stuff Phil Fish has said. I can't speak to the Japanese game industry one, but I'm a PC gaming-ass PC gamer, and I'm not going to get all flustered because Phil Fish once said something a little rude about PC gaming. Fez is going to get released on the PC and I'm going to buy it, and the fact that he may or may not feel exactly the same way as I do about the platform doesn't even enter into the equation. Obviously I can't tell you how to feel or how to spend your money, but expecting Phil Fish to apologize or else you won't buy his game is childish behavior.

I agree with you.

Look, I don't like to use this word a lot, because it's so often used to dismiss legitimate complaints, but a lot of you guys are really butthurt about stuff Phil Fish has said. I can't speak to the Japanese game industry one, but I'm a PC gaming-ass PC gamer, and I'm not going to get all flustered because Phil Fish once said something a little rude about PC gaming. Fez is going to get released on the PC and I'm going to buy it, and the fact that he may or may not feel exactly the same way as I do about the platform doesn't even enter into the equation. Obviously I can't tell you how to feel or how to spend your money, but expecting Phil Fish to apologize or else you won't buy his game is childish behavior.

There's one screen in my version of Fez that runs at about 2 frames per second. It's barely playable at all. It's the clocktower level, where there are no fewer than FOUR anti-cubes. Thankfully the game is so glitched there that I was able to, very very slowly, pick up the same anti-cube four times, because it never registered as being gone. managed to 100% the game anyway. It's a sad problem in a game that otherwise runs perfectly and is maybe the best game of the year so far.

Luckily I finished Fez the day before the patch was released. My save file is now corrupted though.

Neither party is blameless here, but, considering the resources available to each, this really should have been caught by Microsoft in the cert process. If not, what are Ms actually charging for? How can Ms justify those kinds of fees when they have clearly failed to test the patch properly before releasing it? With both teams at fault surely a compromise on the cost could've/should've been reached.

It's a shame that this whole mess, along with people's opinions on Fish's personality, might deter them from enjoying what is otherwise a very good game.

Wow, the number of people seeming to be on Microsoft's side in this is crazy. Any other problem and you'd all be, "Fuck you, Micro$hit!" One indie developer doesn't want to get boned in the ass by their crazy XBLA fees and everyone switches sides? "Fuck you, indie developer guy! We love Microsoft!"

This is Bizarro World. I'll buy your game, Phil.

I think it is pretty crappy of Phil to lay all the blame on MS. Phil knew the cost of patches all along, it wasn't some monstrous surprise that MS sprung on him all of a sudden. The fact is a bugged patch wasn't developed by MS, it was developed by Phil's team. The rare bug slipped through cert and affected the fans. With that said, the strange part to me is that MS doesn't have contingency plans for small changes to patches. I mean, this bug may simply be a few lines of code, or it could be a entire reworking of the save system. We don't know, so its hard to take a stand firmly on either side.

You can hate the MS policies all you want, but the fact is, it's a policy that has always existed for XBLA releases. Polytron would've/should've been aware of it. But that's really so beyond the point it's not even worth mentioning.

The game fucks up the save file. Microsoft doesn't fuck up the save file. The game fucks up the save file. This is Polytrons fault, simple as. This isn't an "oh shit, Gomez done got stuck up a tree! Better restart..." it's "I can no longer play this game".

@Humanity: From all accounts I've heard (and several people confirming it here in these comments) any money from direct sales on XBL are not passed on to the developers/publishers until 4 months after the game's release. So it's possible that Polytron has not actually seen any money yet from Fez sales.

And no, we don't know whether it's "can't" as opposed to "won't." But given that Polytron is a young company consisting of two people, and has been working on this one game for 5+ years, I would assume that the money needed for recertification is a pretty big blow to them. Even if they had the cash on hand to pay it right now, it's probably a hefty sum for such a small developer.

Maybe after 5 years of development, which probably didn't come to an end until MS gave you $ for that exclusivity, don't release a broken game in the first place? I am not pretending that MS is doing any of this 'right,' but as the post points out, their issues are not a secret. Polytron knew what they were getting into, and this tool needs to stop playing the victim.

Only a few months left?!

Okay, now I can get excited. Gimmie that Steam version! :D

Anyway, if you ask me... the whole $40K policy is stupid. I can kind of understand why Microsoft wouldn't want patches going up all the time for games. I mean, this is a console we're talking about, where you have to patch before you load the game, Unlike Steam where it updates in the background. Also, 40 grand is a good deterrent to make sure developer's patches are working properly and not completely fucked.

I think a good solution for smaller devs would be this, however: One free patch every three months, and if you have to patch again in that time, THEN and only then, it would cost you $40,000. This way, it prevents patches from going up too regularly, it prevents developers from rushing out patches, and it makes sure that they properly test them fully to ensure a 100% working product.

Of course, for the big developers, they could still pay as many times as they like for a patch, but for the smaller devs, they could just wait it out and code the shit out of their patch until they have another free update.

What do you guys think?

@algertman said:

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

Stupid douche bag random guy on the Internet makes pessimistic comment toward good quality game.

@VargasPrime said:

@rebgav said:

@VargasPrime said:

@Humanity said:

$40,000 is a lot of money but that doesn't change the fact that essentially he's saying "I'm not going to take responsibility for my errors because it's going to cost me too much money."

You know, part of the reason MS charges so much money for companies to patch their games is because they test/certify everything that gets put on XBL.

So, by that right, this bug that is now affecting 1% of the people who bought Fez is just as much their responsibility as it is Polytron's. For MS to charge them to now fix a bug that their certification process missed seems just as unfair, if not moreso, than Polytron deciding that they could not afford to pay the cost to recertify.

So, Microsoft should absorb the cost of fixing Polytron's shitty work because they didn't find a seemingly rare bug?

Here's a better idea; Let them patch for free but pull the game from XBLA until it actually works as intended. The game gets fixed, no-one buys it while it's broken, both sides absorb the cost through lost or deferred sales.

"Absorbing" the cost is probably a misnomer. The other part of the reason MS charges that insane amount is as a deterrent from rampant patching. The fact that it's a blanket policy no matter the reason for the patch is the problem, I think.

I see no problem with your suggested idea of pulling the game in order to fix it. But I would be very surprised if MS was flexible enough to allow that. Polytron's choices seem to be: pay to recertify, or leave it as is. They can't afford to do the former, so for now, it gets left alone.

Do we know for certain that it's CAN'T do the former rather than just won't do it? VG doesn't have sales figures for Fez but wasn't it a succesful title which a ton of people downloaded? If it did anything that Meatboy did then they should have plenty of money to pay for that patch. Things like these leave an impression on people. Down the road some people might say "oh yah those are the guys that didn't patch their game and it was broke as hell" and the hyperbole will just continue to grow over time. If Fez didn't gross over $100,000 of pure profit for Polytron, with the cut already taken out for his partner, then I guess that kinda sucks and I get why they wouldn't patch it.

The issue to do with how much MS charges for certification. For a company who claims to support Indie Developers on XBLA, they don't seem financially geared for such support. It's not as if the certification is perfect either, other bugs have slipped through for many other titles, many of which were AAA products well into their life cycle where timeliness wasn't of essence so they can hardly justify their pricing model.

Stupid indie hipster game made by a douche bag that took 5 years to make comes out a mess.

@ProfessorEss said:

Yup. You can say that MS's practice of charging for patches is shitty but I don't see how anyone could argue that Fish's decision to say "fuck it" and pass those problems onto the customers who supported him as any less shitty.

I could care less about his public persona and his personal issues and through all the shit I've remained pretty indifferent but this move, this is a legitimately shit move.

I'm not on Microsoft's side here, I'm on the customer's side. Do people really think Polytron is "sticking it" to Microsoft somehow? Because the only people I see getting stuck here are the customers who bought Fez.

This is so true

@VargasPrime said:

@rebgav said:

@VargasPrime said:

@Humanity said:

$40,000 is a lot of money but that doesn't change the fact that essentially he's saying "I'm not going to take responsibility for my errors because it's going to cost me too much money."

You know, part of the reason MS charges so much money for companies to patch their games is because they test/certify everything that gets put on XBL.

So, by that right, this bug that is now affecting 1% of the people who bought Fez is just as much their responsibility as it is Polytron's. For MS to charge them to now fix a bug that their certification process missed seems just as unfair, if not moreso, than Polytron deciding that they could not afford to pay the cost to recertify.

So, Microsoft should absorb the cost of fixing Polytron's shitty work because they didn't find a seemingly rare bug?

Here's a better idea; Let them patch for free but pull the game from XBLA until it actually works as intended. The game gets fixed, no-one buys it while it's broken, both sides absorb the cost through lost or deferred sales.

"Absorbing" the cost is probably a misnomer. The other part of the reason MS charges that insane amount is as a deterrent from rampant patching. The fact that it's a blanket policy no matter the reason for the patch is the problem, I think.

I see no problem with your suggested idea of pulling the game in order to fix it. But I would be very surprised if MS was flexible enough to allow that. Polytron's choices seem to be: pay to recertify, or leave it as is. They can't afford to do the former, so for now, it gets left alone.

It seems like Polytron could do the former, but think it's unfair because "patches should be free". Instead he'll just throw the old patch back up and run to twitter. Honestly both sides have valid points, but the way Fish throws all the blame at Microsoft is very juvenile.

Can't wait for this to show up on Steam/PSN, whichever comes first.