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Oculus Sharply Responds to ZeniMax Allegations

So far, the companies are happy to dispute one another in the court of public opinion.

It hasn't taken long for Oculus to publicly respond to recent claims by ZeniMax that its former employee, John Carmack, was deeply responsible for the evolution of the Oculus Rift into a viable product. As part of its claims, ZeniMax was seeking compensation from Oculus, which just recently sold to Facebook.

No Caption Provided

The company issued a short statement today, which it said will be the "only response" about the matter "at the time."

Here's what Oculus had to say regarding ZeniMax's claims:

"We are disappointed but not surprised by Zenimax’s actions and we will prove that all of its claims are false. In the meantime, we would like to clarify a few key points:

    • There is not a line of Zenimax code or any of its technology in any Oculus products.
    • John Carmack did not take any intellectual property from Zenimax.
    • Zenimax has misstated the purposes and language of the Zenimax non-disclosure agreement that Palmer Luckey signed.
    • A key reason that John permanently left Zenimax in August of 2013 was that Zenimax prevented John from working on VR, and stopped investing in VR games across the company.
    • Zenimax canceled VR support for Doom 3 BFG when Oculus refused Zenimax’s demands for a non-dilutable equity stake in Oculus.
    • Zenimax did not pursue claims against Oculus for IP or technology, Zenimax has never contributed any IP or technology to Oculus, and only after the Facebook deal was announced has Zenimax now made these claims through its lawyers.
    • Despite the fact that the full source code for the Oculus SDK is available online (developer.oculusvr.com), Zenimax has never identified any ‘stolen’ code or technology."
Patrick Klepek on Google+

128 Comments

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chaser324

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chaser324  Moderator

@vuud said:

So the gist of this I suppose is that since Carmack was an employee of Zenimax when he started developing the Rift then Zenimax thinks it has a share of Rift monies. I suppose that may be a legit claim if Carmack didn't read the fine print on his contract.

Isn't it pretty standard that anything you develop at a company belongs to the company?

@fisk0 said:

I think it's pretty common for companies, at least in the game industry, not to let their employee's work on competing commercial projects even in their off time.

@vuud said:

So the gist of this I suppose is that since Carmack was an employee of Zenimax when he started developing the Rift then Zenimax thinks it has a share of Rift monies. I suppose that may be a legit claim if Carmack didn't read the fine print on his contract.

Isn't it pretty standard that anything you develop at a company belongs to the company?

These are pretty consistent with my viewpoint on this issue. Depending on the stipulations of Carmack's former employment, all of the bullet points on that list might be totally irrelevant.

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fisk0

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fisk0  Moderator

Crazy how much of this seems to come down to when Carmack was off the clock or not. What times in an employee's day are they allowed to not be "at work" ?

I think it's pretty common for companies, at least in the game industry, not to let their employee's work on competing commercial projects even in their off time.

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Gold_Skulltulla

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Crazy how much of this seems to come down to when Carmack was off the clock or not. What times in an employee's day are they allowed to not be "at work" ?

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Max_Cherry

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Edited By Max_Cherry

Zenimax is slimy!

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generic_username

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What an embarrassing way to start off a new technology. Two companies publicly fighting with each other through headlines over who owns what. I guess I can't really expect a company owned by Facebook to take the high road.

Oculus sold out and it shows in the way that they're handling themselves. I wish they showed more integrity and never took Zuckerberg's monopoly money.

What? This is the most upside-down perspective I've seen on a subject in a while.

Zenimax fired the first shot. Responding to that is what any self-respecting company should do, and we see it all pass by as an out-of-court settlement far too often. Zenimax saw money and decided to throw out (allegedly) baseless accusations in order to make a quick buck, and Oculus is simply holding their ground. I mean, what the hell? I hate Facebook as much as the next guy, but this is ridiculous. I feel like yeah, maybe Oculus wouldn't have put out a statement like this if Zenimax made the accusations before they got bought, but that's only because they wouldn't have had the money to fight it in court. This idea that Oculus is being "petty" due to "selling out" is a complete fantasy.

I don't see how allowing another corporation to take a shit on them from both a PR standpoint and a financial one is in any way "taking the high road." That's insane.

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divergence

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yep, last bullet point is the key one here. If they can't prove their code exists in either anything Oculus has developed internally or made available to the public (the sdk) then... well Zenimax doesn't have much of a case do they?

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budsaq

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mr_creeper

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BOPPED

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FierceDeity

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Edited By FierceDeity

@joshwent: I'm kind of in the same situation. Whenever I think of Zenimax, I think of that and the "Scrolls" thing. And then I remember what studios they own, and I feel really bad for the developers of those games. They need to tell their legal team to calm the F down.

This story feels strangely like the whole "DOTA" thing between Blizzard and Valve. "Heck yeah DOTA is a pretty good user-made map in Warcraft 3. Wait, are those DOTA 2 numbers for real ?! HEY DOTA IS TOTALLY OUR IT'S IN W3 IT'S OUR GIVE US THE MONEY GIVE IT GIVE IT GIVE IT !"

And I'm slowly warming up to the idea of Facebook owning Occulus. They seem to be saying the right words, and saying them the right way. This response is an example.

You seriously think Blizzard was in the wrong with the whole Dota thing? I don't know about legally, but Valve was the fucking scummy one.

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tekuzo

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  • Despite the fact that the full source code for the Oculus SDK is available online (developer.oculusvr.com), Zenimax has never identified any ‘stolen’ code or technology."

OH SNAP

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selbie

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It scares me that Carmack looks like Drew.

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subyman

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The key point is if there is a moonlighting clause for Mr. Carmack. All those other points are rather irrelevant.

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SumMexican75

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Beef is delicious.

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thefriend

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Edited By thefriend

@brackynews said:

VR BEEF!

They should fight it out in a VR courtroom. I recommend Phoenix Wright.

OBJECTION! Check out my lawyer pin.

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Even

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Considering Carmack's tweet and Facebook's response, I'm willing to bet that Carmack (being the smart guy that he is) just re-wrote the code that Zenimax may have had claim to. In programming, TMTOWTDI, which would make Carmack/Facebook's claims true while making Zenimax none the wiser, thinking they might have a claim against Facebook.

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audiosnow

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Edited By audiosnow

They should have Friend of the Site (TM) Dave Lang write the next press statement.

"Get f****d, ZeniMax!"

EDIT: It's really funny that this is happening, after Carmack released the Doom 3 code and ZeniMax released Doom 3 BFG years later.

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planetfunksquad

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@polyesterpimp: How is it disturbing that people don't want to willingly give up their person info?

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Vuud

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So the gist of this I suppose is that since Carmack was an employee of Zenimax when he started developing the Rift then Zenimax thinks it has a share of Rift monies. I suppose that may be a legit claim if Carmack didn't read the fine print on his contract.

Isn't it pretty standard that anything you develop at a company belongs to the company?

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prencher

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@luck702: Bethesda is fully owned by ZeniMax. There is no getting a better publisher.

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sgtsphynx

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sgtsphynx  Moderator

I could be wrong, but I think the argument that Zenimax is making has to do with a clause I have heard is usually in contracts concerning stuff developed by the employee, in this case John Carmack, where the employer has first option or owns depending on how the contract is worded. Now, if the contract is "first dibs" style, Zenimax already blew that chance when they stopped Carmack from developing VR at id Software which caused him to leave and join Oculus VR. The only point of contention I can see with this situation is the 3.5 months between when he joined Oculus VR and when he left id Software, however I find it hard to believe that Carmack wouldn't be smart enough to avoid any potential issues with that situation.

As I said, I could be wrong and that clause never existed in Carmacks contract, or it could have been worded differently, but that's where I could maybe see some legitimacy to Zenimaxs claim. That said, this response by Oculus VR seems to address pretty much every claim Zenimax has made and I don't see Zenimax winning if this does go to court.

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xyzygy

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Edited By xyzygy

@polyesterpimp said:

@xyzygy said:

I don't care who was right and who was wrong in this; I am not touching Oculus as long as Facebook owns it. I will gladly wait until a company that doesn't own and share the information of billions of people comes out with its version.

But the idea behind facebook is that its users all willingly share their own information so your statement doesn't really seem valid. To not support a product that will probably be a turning point in video games for such a reason is really disturbing and its frustrating that you arent the only person who holds such a view

Yeah, and I'm willingly not taking part in any of that. Hence why I'm avoiding Oculus. I'm sorry, I consider myself to be a very forward thinking person but I still can't get over how staggering it is how much power Facebook holds.

And yes it will become a turning point in video games, but there will be competition. Most lilkely in the form of the current console makers. I'm holding my hopes out for them. I see no reason at all to support Oculus after they sold to a company like Facebook.

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ghost_cat

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John Carmack: "Hey, Zenimax guys, glad you can make it out to this luncheon! Oh, where are my manners? Zenimax guys, meet Facebook's lawyers."

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m1m1c

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Edited By m1m1c
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PolyesterPimp

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@xyzygy said:

I don't care who was right and who was wrong in this; I am not touching Oculus as long as Facebook owns it. I will gladly wait until a company that doesn't own and share the information of billions of people comes out with its version.

But the idea behind facebook is that its users all willingly share their own information so your statement doesn't really seem valid. To not support a product that will probably be a turning point in video games for such a reason is really disturbing and its frustrating that you arent the only person who holds such a view

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PulledaBrad

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Edited By PulledaBrad

@greonhal said:

I am frightened and confused at the lack of Will Smith in this article.

I got you bro.

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PJ

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@luck702: Zenimax isn't Bethesdas publisher, they own the company. If Zenimax goes bankrupt, so does Bethesda

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spraynardtatum

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@xyzygy said:

I don't care who was right and who was wrong in this; I am not touching Oculus as long as Facebook owns it. I will gladly wait until a company that doesn't own and share the information of billions of people comes out with its version.

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ripelivejam

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i feel a bit bad for john carmack. well i mean he's filthy rich(er) now so not REALLY, but just seems like he's caught in the middle of something he had no intention was going to happen. oh well, hopefully he remains focused and doesn't let it all go to his head.

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MrSpaceMan

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Dat pink eye

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RVonE

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Edited By RVonE

@evilsbane said:

@spraynardtatum said:

@cptbedlam said:

@spraynardtatum: Are you living in bizarro world? Zenimax is the bully here. And it's not the first time either. That company is scum.

They're both being babies.

How seems to me that Zenimax is hiding their bullshit claim behind legalese, while Oculus is laying the facts out on the table.

I think the whole thing should have been handled in private. When Zenimax didn't do that, Oculus should have. Now Oculus is playing along with Zenimax shitty publicity stunt. It's stupid. He said, she said bullshit.

@rvone Not at all, I would expect Oculus to fight as hard as they could from the respectable place of 'not in front of everyone on the internet'. That's immature. It's the Justin Beiber approach. I'm sure it's just what the lawyers said to do though so whatever. I just think this whole thing is moronic.

No of course they shouldn't have kept it private. Not responding in public will make Zenimax' claim seem more legitimate in the eyes of the public. As part of a publicly traded company, Oculus cannot risk such an outcome. Having public opinion on your side will make investors and shareholders feel more at ease (this also holds for the previous situation in which Oculus was privately held but depended almost entirely on investors for its continued existence). The only recourse they have is to make their case as clear as possible in order to assuage any doubt created by Zenimax.

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xyzygy

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I don't care who was right and who was wrong in this; I am not touching Oculus as long as Facebook owns it. I will gladly wait until a company that doesn't own and share the information of billions of people comes out with its version.

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deactivated-60a530ec4d635

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Giant Bomb: The #1 source for beef, news about beef and beefsteaks.

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fattony12000

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Edited By fattony12000

Good on them for being so direct and clear with their statement.

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TheSouthernDandy

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Edited By TheSouthernDandy

TECH BEEF!

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Greonhal

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I am frightened and confused at the lack of Will Smith in this article.

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spraynardtatum

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spraynardtatum

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@spraynardtatum said:

@cptbedlam said:

@spraynardtatum: Are you living in bizarro world? Zenimax is the bully here. And it's not the first time either. That company is scum.

They're both being babies.

How seems to me that Zenimax is hiding their bullshit claim behind legalese, while Oculus is laying the facts out on the table.

I think the whole thing should have been handled in private. When Zenimax didn't do that, Oculus should have. Now Oculus is playing along with Zenimax shitty publicity stunt. It's stupid. He said, she said bullshit.

@rvone Not at all, I would expect Oculus to fight as hard as they could from the respectable place of 'not in front of everyone on the internet'. That's immature. It's the Justin Beiber approach. I'm sure it's just what the lawyers said to do though so whatever. I just think this whole thing is moronic.

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Oni

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Zenimax: TWO BILLION? Well, Carmack worked for us, so some of that money should probably go to us, because we raised him, or something. idk, MONEY!

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Stimpack

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jakob187

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As it stands, with the hits that ZeniMax is taking and about to take, I really don't think they can afford a lengthy court battle of doom with Oculus and the all-powerful Facebook. They have a hardcore legal team behind them now.

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cerberus3dog

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I forgot that John Carmack is a major proponent of open source software. Makes ZeniMax's claims about stealing source code a tad more ridiculous.

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JoelTGM

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-_-

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bushpusherr

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@cptbedlam said:

@spraynardtatum: Are you living in bizarro world? Zenimax is the bully here. And it's not the first time either. That company is scum.

They're both being babies.

What the hell is the "high road" here, and how is Oculus being a baby in this situation? This isn't just a verbal beef that they can "be the bigger man" and walk away from...they are being fucking sued. It's not something they can ignore.

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JamesJeux007

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Edited By JamesJeux007

@joshwent: I'm kind of in the same situation. Whenever I think of Zenimax, I think of that and the "Scrolls" thing. And then I remember what studios they own, and I feel really bad for the developers of those games. They need to tell their legal team to calm the F down.

This story feels strangely like the whole "DOTA" thing between Blizzard and Valve. "Heck yeah DOTA is a pretty good user-made map in Warcraft 3. Wait, are those DOTA 2 numbers for real ?! HEY DOTA IS TOTALLY OUR IT'S IN W3 IT'S OUR GIVE US THE MONEY GIVE IT GIVE IT GIVE IT !"

And I'm slowly warming up to the idea of Facebook owning Occulus. They seem to be saying the right words, and saying them the right way. This response is an example.

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RVonE

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@zelyre said:

We at Zenimax believe that people may confuse the Occulus Rift with The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion.

lol

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Zelyre

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We at Zenimax believe that people may confuse the Occulus Rift with The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion.

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Evilsbane

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Edited By Evilsbane

@spraynardtatum said:

@cptbedlam said:

@spraynardtatum: Are you living in bizarro world? Zenimax is the bully here. And it's not the first time either. That company is scum.

They're both being babies.

How, seems to me that Zenimax is hiding their bullshit claim behind legalese, while Oculus is laying the facts out on the table.

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RVonE

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What an embarrassing way to start off a new technology. Two companies publicly fighting with each other through headlines over who owns what. I guess I can't really expect a company owned by Facebook to take the high road.

Oculus sold out and it shows in the way that they're handling themselves. I wish they showed more integrity and never took Zuckerberg's monopoly money.

Are you high? Did you expect Oculus to just roll over when Zenimax decided to throw a tantrum?

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spraynardtatum

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@spraynardtatum: Are you living in bizarro world? Zenimax is the bully here. And it's not the first time either. That company is scum.

They're both being babies.

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Shabs

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Well, no way Carmack is going to QuakeCon now... :S