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The Slippery Slope of Video Game Sales

Passage and The Castle Doctrine designer Jason Rohrer believes our newfound culture of video game sales is hurting players and developers at the same time.

(UPDATE: You can now listen to our whole interview on the Interview Dumptruck.)

Can you remember the last time there wasn't a video game sale going on? This only happened recently, but the culture of perpetual sales caught fire quickly, and it's only getting bigger. The upside of sales are clear: cheaper games. But Passage, Inside a Star-filled Sky, and and Diamond Trust of London developer Jason Rohrer has a new game, and isn't so sure sales always benefit for developers and players.

Rohrer has been independently making games for years. In 2013, he had a Kickstarter to produce a set of DS cartridges.
Rohrer has been independently making games for years. In 2013, he had a Kickstarter to produce a set of DS cartridges.

Rohrer recently published an essay on the website called "Why Rampant Sales are Bad for Players" for his next release, The Castle Doctrine. When the game is released later this month, the current price, $8, will have a temporary launch price of $12. After a week, however, the price will become $16--forever. There will be no sales for The Castle Doctrine. Period. Basically, Rohrer wants to reward early adopters, not punish them with having to pay more money.

The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family) to Rohrer's reaction to his life experiences that have informed the game's development (being attacked by dogs).

Rohrer's stance on the game's relationship with sales is the latest development, albeit one with somewhat less moral messiness alongside it. Nonetheless, broaching the topic resulted in the most web traffic Rohrer has seen on his website since the game was announced last year.

Clearly, Rohrer has touched a sensitive subject for all parties involved.

"There’s a rush among game developers," he told me. "All of my friends that I know that are multimillionaires, they made more than half of their money in these Steam sales. Over the past couple of years, I’ve just been hearing all these stories from people. 'Oh, yeah, the sales are where you’re going to make your money, man! I did a midweek madness, and that doubled my money right there!” [laughs] 'I was deal of the day a few weeks later--and again! I doubled!' And they just act like this is the way it is and this is amazing. If you stop and ask one of them, 'you realize that most of those people who bought it, when it was midweek madness or whatever, don’t actually play it?' And they just shrug. 'Who cares, as long as I get their money, right?'"

To be clear, Rohrer doesn't really begrudge his friends for cashing in on what seems to make sense. But he does wonder if there's unintended consequences to this movement, as is the case with any "rush." On the App Store, the rush resulted in a race to the bottom on price, as more games decided the best way to make money was to charge less, hoping to make up for the lack of initial investment with volume.

(If you'll remember, this is what Nintendo president Satoru Iwata famously criticized in his keynote at the Game Developers Conference in 2011. He felt it devalued the quality of games.)

And furthermore, it's not like Rohrer hasn't benefited from the very practice he's now questioning. His last game, Inside a Star-filled Sky, was the benefit of many Steam sales before Rohrer pulled the plug. Rohrer said he made a "substantial amount of money" from these Steam sales.

But he started to notice a pattern when Inside a Star-filled Sky wasn't on sale: no one bought it. Almost no one, anyway. Sales were flat in-between sales, and garnering a new level of interest on the next sale meant offering deeper and deeper discounts. As other developers offered bigger discounts, he felt compelled to do the same thing. In his essay, Rohrer offered this sales graph to illustrate the point:

No Caption Provided

There was a surprising counterpoint within Rohrer's own library of work, too. Another one of his games, Sleep Is Death, was simultaneously available on his website during the same period. During the times when Inside a Star-filled Sky wasn't on sale and Sleep Is Death was full price, Sleep Is Death was making more money. What Rohrer discovered was that our new culture of games sales, something he’d benefited from and supported himself, had conditioned people to avoid full price.

"A lot of people use the term 'trained.' [laughs]" he said. "[It's uncomfortable] having any of these kinds of discussions about marketing and 'should you price your game at $1 or $0.99? Or should it be $9.99 or $10?' All these psychological tricks that marketers have learned over the years. 'Have the price high, so you can discount it later!' All these kinds of things [are] because of psychology. I feel a little slimy dealing with it and thinking in these terms. I especially feel a little slimy about thinking about how we’ve 'trained' our customers. They’re just clapping their fins together and throwing money at us!"

"As a developer, being turned from a millionaire into a multi-millionaire, by effectively tricking a bunch of people into wasting money on something they’ll never use? I, personally, don’t feel good about that."

There's a reason Rohrer titled his essay "Why Rampant Sales are Bad for Players." The culture of sales seems to be eroding his ability to sell games over the longterm, and it impacts early adopters. Rohrer hypothesized the poor soul who purchased one of his games a few minutes before an unannounced sale kicks in. What does that person think? Do they feel okay having spent anywhere from 50-to-75% more than the next person?

This situation wasn't a hypothetical when it came to a Sleep Is Death customer, though. For a period, Sleep Is Death adopted a pay-what-you-want pricing model. The game had been $12, but pay-what-you-want means you pay the developer whatever you think the game is worth. Not long after the change, he received an email from a player purchased the game just prior to the pay-what-you-want change, and he was upset.

"This person’s argument was [that] 'I only have $12 in my bank account, and I just spent it on your game and I won’t be able to buy another game.'" he said. "Some of these people are kids. They get allowance or have a birthday present [where] they get $20 from their grandma or something. 'It’s a game we’re all playing with money' is not true for a lot of people. A lot of people really have to think very hard about what game they spend their money on."

Rohrer asked the player what he wanted to pay. The player's response? $3. So Rohrer refunded him $9.

It's not entirely about the money, either. It's also about how he design games. Rohrer said The Castle Doctrine is not a game that takes five minutes to "click." He suspects it will take players a week before the systems really make sense. That's quite a bit of time, but Rohrer doesn't have a way of making the big payoff in the opening moments--it's not that type of game. He needs players willing to invest.

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When Inside Star-filled Sky went on sale, Rohrer searched through the comments and reviews from players. Steam profiles list the time someone has spent playing a game, and Rohrer noticed a crucial detail with players who didn't like Inside a Star-filled Sky: they weren't spending much time with it.

"Every single person who’s giving it a negative review played it for less than an hour, which means they didn’t even get through the tutorial, the part where the cool stuff is explained," he said. "The people who paid full price for it, whatever the full price was at the time that they bought it, gave it a chance. Some of them played it for hundreds of hours. I really think that if you want to make a more subtle game, one that’s not necessarily going to beat you over the head with what’s cool about it right from the first screen. [If] you want to make a game that takes longer and lingers more and is more about the long term experience, then, yeah, pricing the game higher really will help you have almost all the players who come in be willing to get to that point."

Rohrer's suggestion that the larger investment we have in something, the more we're willing to give it a chance, doesn't sound too crazy, if a bit counterintuitive. Look at it a different way. When you were a kid, did your parents ever buy you a totally crappy game? I remember getting some awful licensed games as a kid, and while I would have preferred Chrono Trigger, I didn't have a choice, so I sucked it up and played through what was in front of me and tried to find enjoyment in that. If I spent $20 on a game, I want to know what it's about. If I spend $2 on a game, I might be inclined to turn it off after my initial reaction.

As he researched his essay, Rohrer came across the idea of a "shame list." Players were posting all of the games picked up in a Steam sale, games they knew they would never have time to play. But when a potentially interesting game is available for $2, why not buy it? Isn't it a win-win? The developer is being rewarded with money and the player suddenly has cheap access to a game.

The days and weeks leading up to a season Steam sale often pushes players into a fever pitch of anticipation.
The days and weeks leading up to a season Steam sale often pushes players into a fever pitch of anticipation.

"When a player comes along and does a shame list," he said, "where they have 300 games in the library, of which they’ve only played 30--that’s bad for players! They wasted their money. And people say 'they don’t need to be babysat, they’re adults or people who can make their own choices, we don’t need to hold their hands as developers and make sure they don’t make bad choice.' But at the same time, me, as a developer, being turned from a millionaire into a multimillionaire, by effectively tricking a bunch of people into wasting money on something they’ll never use? I, personally, don’t feel good about that. I don’t think that’s good for those people. I don’t necessarily think it’s McDonalds’ job to make sure we all eat healthy, but at the same time, I wouldn’t want to be running a fast food restaurant myself."

Right now, the plan is for The Castle Doctrine to never have a sale. Rohrer believes it make sense right now, but it's hard to anticipate the future, and nothing applies to every developer's situation. But it's started an interesting conversation.

When asked, he didn't have a good answer as to why The Castle Doctrine will be priced at $16. He just sort of settled on it. It's certainly more expensive than games his friends have made, though.

"It was kind of scary saying 'The Castle Doctrine will be $16 dollars,'" he said. " [...] Should it only be $6 and then go up to $12? Should it be $5 and go up to $10? You don’t know what effect this is going to have. It’s scary to make your price higher than everybody else. The Castle Doctrine will be more than Fez. [laughs] The Castle Doctrine will be more than Braid ever was. The Castle Doctrine will be more than Super Meat Boy. Yeah, I don’t know. It seems scary, but on the other hand, it very well may be the right thing to do, and maybe even got it set too low."

Patrick Klepek on Google+

455 Comments

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Tyrrael

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This is the kind of bullshit that makes people hate developers and publishers. It's just another douchebag with ample amounts of money trying to convince those that are less fortunate that a system that allows them to more easily and consistently enjoy what they love should be done away with completely, because, contrary to reality, it somehow hurts games, gamers, and the games industry as a whole. It's like saying that sales at major retailers like Target, Wal-Mart, Sears, etc. somehow hurts the department store industry, when in fact, it boosts sales, interest, and awareness of more products, which almost guarantees those people will be back to buy things other than just the necessities that they may have only been there to buy in the first place. This guy needs a reality check, because his whole premise of "game sales=bad" trespasses so blatantly on the territory of demonstrable fact that even calling it an opinion is categorically wrong in every respect.

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fallen_rock2

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I bought this guy's game yesterday. My issue isn't with a lack of sales, I want my money back.

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Swiftopian

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I get what he's saying, I really do. I have bought a lot of games on sale, including retail console games and digital games on Steam or with PS Plus discounts, and I am probably never going to have time to even play most of them. Also because I have so many, I feel like I should be starting another one instead of replaying one immediately after finishing. So I understand his thinking, but c'mon son...GET PAID.

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Johnyliltoe

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@cocyx said:

@patrickklepek said:

The fact that some folks are taking this so personally is really surprising to me.

GAMER CULTURE

Correction: Vocal Gamer Cultrue

There are plenty of gamers that engage in quite discussions who are less emotionally involved in the details of development like this. It's the vocal minority that tends to get more up in arms and set this unfavorable standard of rage.

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JordanPaul

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"As a developer, being turned from a millionaire into a multi-millionaire, by effectively tricking a bunch of people into wasting money on something they’ll never use? I, personally, don’t feel good about that."

Rather strange quote coming from someone that makes a product that has no physical value or worth, but spends his life making that in order to find his physical lifestyle.

Hey guys, it's called entertainment and no different from DVDs or music. Stop the damn guilt tripping!

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FierceDeity

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Edited By FierceDeity

@abethegreatest said:

So he is attempting to convince gamers to accept and welcome higher game prices. Also a man protecting his family being seen as controversial sounds pretty ridiculous

I also couldn't help but laugh at that. For anyone who would actually get upset about something like that, I would merely ask this:

What do you think the evolutionary purpose of the disparity between male and female physique is, exactly?

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TheManWithNoPlan

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@dsi1 said:

Clickbait like this almost makes me regret my subscription.

I feel like @patrickklepek's already defended this point pretty well. So, I'll just leave this here.

@rm082e said:

I really like your work on Giant Bomb and appreciate your viewpoint, but stories like this one or the booth babes article you did a long while back genuinely make me ask a few questions:

1. Is Patrick only writing this article because he knows it will result in a ton of mixed/angry comments that will drive up page views, or does he have a genuine interest in the subject matter he is covering?

2. Is he purposely using the words of other people to convey an opinion he has without directly stating it himself so that he can hide behind a "journalist" badge rather than a "blogger" badge?

To be clear, I'm not accusing you of baiting, it's just that the subjects discussed in some of these articles feel like total bait material. I guess that's the point though right? You would rather talk about something that will inspire discussion (of all variety) rather than write top ten most wanted lists and other boring garbage? Makes sense.

My point is, I'm a member who really likes what you contribute to the site and the work you do, but even I raise an eyebrow at some of the things you write about. I suspect that means you've done a good job. :)

Of course not. Jason Rohrer is a well respected game designer who's made some excellent games in the past. I don't agree with everything Jason has to say, but the counterintuitive notion that game sales (could) create create unforeseen negative consequences is absolutely a conversation with having. If I wanted to publish articles just to generate comments, there are way easier ways to do that than spending an hour researching Jason's topic, two hours transcribing our interview, an hour writing our interview, half an hour edited the article design, and finally half an hour editing the podcast version of the interview. :)

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generic_username

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@dsi1: This is a complete story, with a full interview behind its existence, not quite sure what the problem is here.

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Hailinel

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@dsi1: How is this click bait?

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dsi1

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Edited By dsi1

Clickbait like this almost makes me regret my subscription. At least today is Unprofessional Friday!

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DaveC524

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Supply and demand. There's clearly an overabundance of PC games that need deep discounts to ever get looked at. I don't see the solution to this issue as getting rid of sales and raising prices. If you want your game to either A) get pirated out the ass or B) never get bought ever, get rid of sales and keep prices high, even though the demand clearly does not meet that inflated market price. Clearly Steam users have high demand for lower prices for certain titles, hence why they purchase it at the sale price, and rarely at the higher, non-sale price, at least for certain games.

Now, this isn't to say that NO games are ever bought at full retail price, but they tend to be bought by people who knew what they were in for, and already had a high demand for the game at the price originally set (the full retail price).

No Caption Provided

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generic_username

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Edited By generic_username

@synthesis_landale: I think a lot of my veiw on him is based on that episode of "A Life Well Wasted" that came out forever ago, where he insisted on living on 14,000 dollars a year. I then wound up reading about him complaining about how difficult it was for him to afford to raise him family, even after claiming in that episode of the podcast that it was his "choice" to live that way, and that he was trying to prove it could be done, or something like that. It's been a while, but it left a big impression on me, and was actually one of my first "you know, not every artist is worth listening to, some can be full of shit" moments I had growing up. I don't follow him extensively, as I don't love his work, so I don't really have a very full perspective on his behavior. My limited knowledge of him, however, leads me to believe that he's not very consistent with his ideals. Maybe he'll stick to his guns on this one, but if he does, I personally think it'll only be to save face.

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synthesis_landale

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@generic_username: I'd take that bet on this game going on sale. Rorher seems the type that will insist on remaining a man of his word. I think THIS game will never go on sale but every future game of his will still find their way to sales. I'm pretty sure that he knew that going in to this experiment which is why he's not saying 'all games I sell from now on' but instead limiting his wording to "The Castle Doctrine".

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Ellboy

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@patrickklepek: I'm not sure why you're surprised by the outrage. He's

1) Accusing people of being Pavlovian dogs, incapable of making their own decisions about what's worth buying, and at what price.

2) Even worse, he's telling us that by buying during sales, we're actually hurting the game industry, something which we obviously all care deeply about or we wouldn't be reading the article.

Have you reached out to Michael Pachter, or anyone with an economics background for their input on this discussion?

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synthesis_landale

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Ya know, I know Rohrer is just experimenting with pricing and will realize with this game that it likely doesn't work as well as he thinks, but I almost feel like he's being manipulative more now than on some Steam sale, even if he's not doing it intentionally.

"Buy my game early, get it for 8 bucks, sure you don't know if it's good, but hey, it's cheaper now. When it launches, and likely has the most buzz and reviews it'll be 12 bucks. If it turns out to be good and you waited, sorry, pay a 4 dollar waiting to hear if it's good fee. Anyone else whether you're late finding out about it or you just don't keep up on games, you get an 8 dollar 'just hearing about it' fee."

Sure, there will be times where this could work out for the developer, and more power to him regardless of which way it goes, it's his game to do this with. BUT, coming from someone who picked up 2 copies of Diamond Trust of London DS because of the Quick Look done here on Giant Bomb, well after the 'pre' buy (Kickstarter) and after the release date (When the carts actually went on sale), I can promise him, if I'd heard that the game was 20 before I bought it for 30, it would have had a negative impression on me and I might have shied away from buying it at all. Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I'd have felt that I was being taken advantage of because I hadn't been 'in the loop' and got the game early.

That said, I'm not even offended by a prebuy price, those supporting the game getting made/finished maybe deserve a thanks, but banning sales that might pick up those who didn't seems foolhardy and a middle finger to those who didn't support it before.

This coming is from someone who has put 750 into a single game (Tesla Effect) via Kickstarter. I'm not against prebuying a game if A: I trust a developer or B: The game wouldn't be made otherwise, but don't punish everyone else who hasn't yet learned to trust said developer to always make good games or who was late to the party. That feels more icky than a Steam sale where someone might buy a game and not play it, having essentially wasted their 2-5 bucks.

Edit: Oh, and as my wife pointed out, we never did get around to playing Diamond Trust of London for months after getting it because we moved as it showed up and it got lost in the shuffle, so buying a game full price doesn't necessarily mean you will play it.

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generic_username

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Edited By generic_username

It sucks really bad to be burned by a sale. I've totally blown 20 extra bucks on things that have gone on sale the next day. Multiple times. The sale culture HAS in fact made me less willing to buy games at full price, because I know it's just going to be aggressively discounted a few months later.

That said, Jason Rohrer has always been one of the "indies" that has rubbed me the wrong way. Passage was interesting. It didn't move me in the slightest, though, and I bought his three pack of games on DSiware and none of them clicked with me, even after "more than ten minutes." He also tends to speak like his words are truth just because he's the one speaking them, and is actually one of the biggest hypocrites in the industry, at least from what I've been exposed to. I'm still glad he's out there doing it though, and I'm sure his work is inspiring other small devs to make things that actually move me.

That game is totally going to go on sale. When it does, he'll blame the "sale culture" for forcing him to do it, but Rohrer has never really been one to follow through on his ideals.

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Ellboy

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Edited By Ellboy

This essay is so profoundly stupid, I would never trust my time to a game that this guy made. So he's lost any potential sales from me in the future, barring some brilliant release that gets a ton of positive reviews from people whose opinions I trust.

Now, when I say "profoundly stupid" I mean specifically this; it's full of unfounded and unsupported assumptions:

  • that people who buy games on sale are probably never going to play them
  • that we're rushing toward THE BOTTOM (next he'll complain about kids these days)
  • gross ignorance of economic theory (things don't have intrinsic economic value, they're only worth what people are willing to pay, and people are willing to pay more for newness)
  • that he needs to discount his games to some arbitrary % to compete with his peers
  • that there is anything wrong with people waiting for a sale before buying
  • that people have been trained to wait for sales, or that they are being tricked by pricing changes (this betrays a really disgusting contempt for his customers)
  • that there is any such thing as "Full Price", and everything after that is a detraction from value
  • that people paid for Minecraft early because it was less expensive or they were worried it would get more expensive (I paid for Minecraft early because I wanted to support Notch finishing the game)
  • that people can be "burned" by a sale (if the choice was rational when you made the purchase decision, that doesn't change when the price changes)
  • that a huge un-played library is "wasted" money (people buy games for all kinds of reasons, it's not for you to decide what is a "good" reason or "bad" reason for buying a game)
  • that paying less for a game means you're less likely to invest your time (LoL, Dota2 destroy this point utterly)
  • that because you paid a lot for a game that it somehow deserves your time (there's a reason that the idea of "throwing good money after bad" exists)
  • that the "culture" of sales is in any way exclusive to gaming
  • that the idea of HARD FUCKING DATA from Steam is overridden by "it doesn't feel right"

Here's a clue for Jason. The reason you had to keep increasing your Steam sales over time is that people (in aggregate) weren't willing to pay as much as time passed. That's the way the world works, and complaining about it just comes off as childish ignorance of that fact.

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geirr

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The concept of waiting for things to be cheaper before buying them isn't very new. My mom practiced it decades ago when trying to raise me and my brother.

If almost no one picks up your game at launch I'd say your game isn't compelling enough for the masses. Like with everything, a percentage of people buy something at launch and some wait for whatever it is to become a little cheaper and more settled. In the case of video-games, maybe wait for bugs to be ironed out. In the case of MMOs which his new game seemingly is, some just don't want them at all until they're free-2-play.

This model of making it more expensive after launch is interesting at least, so it'll be fun to see how it works out for him. Personally it almost feels like I'm being pressured to buy it fast, so I'm not going to. It's almost like the sale happens now, and never again. Like stores will email you something like this: LAST CHANCE SALE, THINGS WILL NEVER BE 50% OFF AGAIN EVER (til next week.)

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MrMazz

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I buy a lot of things cheap/used or on sale because I'm frugal so sue me.

I really wana play Banner Sage, really enjoyed Factions, however, I'm in the middle of a class term at the moment and don't have the time to play it. But by the time term is over it'll likely be on sale through steam and I can pick it up cheaper. win win.

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Edited By Hef

"The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)"

So apparently you're not allowed to have male protagonists in games anymore? That has to be a joke.

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Edited By McShank

@hassun said:

The sales didn't condition people to not buy games at full price and wait for sales, someone with a limited budget will always do this, for almost any product.

I'm not sure he actually understands this or did his research properly to be honest.

Actually, Because of steam sales, I rarely buy any game full price now. I will actually just wait for a sale. Amazon, gamestop, steam, craigslist >.>

I have plenty of spare cash to drop on games but I am now in the mindset which is really hard to break as I love to have extra money for other things to buy things on sale only.. I have wanted Disgaea D2 and Disgaea 4. Instead of pre-ordering I am waiting for amazon to have a sale. I wanted Ni No Kuni since it was first shown online.. I waited till it hit 20$ because I wanted to save a few dollars. Sales do condition people. I used to buy games all the time as soon as they hit the shelves at full price. Then I built a pc and it all went downhill :(

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joshwent

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But then why not just give that some money to a cause or a business, or even an individual developer(s), that you think is actually worthy of it instead of it being an after the fact justification for buying a game that you ultimately don't care about?

Because you're also getting a game that you're choosing to buy? I think you're resisting my actual point. You don't have to care that you're supporting a dev when you buy their game. But you are when you buy it, so it's good for both parties.

Alternatively what about the "Fuck EA/Activison/Ubisoft/etc., I'm not buying their games at full price because they're all assholes" line of reasoning for never buying games at full price?

That line of reasoning is stupid and I don't really support it. But still, if someone felt that they were somehow sticking it to a company by buying their game on a sale, the joke's on them, because for the reasons stated above, the company still benefits. That person with their bad opinions of EA or whatever clearly wasn't going to buy the full price game, but if they get it on sale, they're still giving money to EA on its own terms, because EA decides when it's good for them to discount that product.

How does that get worked back into never buying indie games at full prices even though they're not Heartless Corporations and their games are generally significantly cheaper.

I don't think anyone is supporting never buying anything at full price. In fact, say there's a AAA game which launches at $60, but I'm not that interested in it, so I'll wait for a sale when it's like $30. I then have that extra $30 to spend on maybe 2 indie games which, as you rightly say, are generally cheaper. So I'm still supporting the AAA dev by participating in their sale, and because of that, I'm able to support some indie devs by getting their games at full price.

After all, it would be better for a developer you like to get more money, right?

Yes?

...i do believe the humble sales are quite extreme. If you remove the charity aspect (which has become easier to do over time) you are left with games being worth pennies.

This is true, but consider why those games are participating in a bundle at all. It's because the life span of those game's profitability is coming to an end, so instead of just leaving a game to dry up and be forgotten, they can make a last big bit of profit from them at no added cost (in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars). It's actually become a new way to get more money from a game.

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MormonWarrior

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@alwaysbebombing said:

This is such crap. Like, seriously. All this dude is complaining about is the ideals of consumerism that have been going on since the Industrial Revolution. Buying to many things is never "bad for consumers" it's how Capitalism works. The only time you can "buy to many games" is if you are unable to afford rent that month. Agghhh, the logic was actually frustratingly wrong to read. No offense to Patrick, cause he's just reporting, I like Patrick. Anyone who took extensive amounts of Economics classes in Uni like I did will be frustrated too.

Yeah, when you take a few economics classes you see a lot of people's arguments just fall apart. It's knowledge that honestly should be taught at a more general level because I think we'd benefit as a society (and a world) if more people understood the basics of supply and demand, and how people respond to incentives.

I can see why this guy is making some of the points he's making, but I disagree with his fundamental argument on almost every account. The only thing I appreciated is he wasn't calling for any kind of legislation or anything to control this. If it's left in private hands, and things are learned and adjusted appropriately, that's the best way to do it. Sales often give games more exposure, and having a game in my Steam library makes it much more likely that I'll check it out at some point.

If the consumer is happy, and the developer is happy, then what exactly is the problem? I don't really understand why he has such a philosophical problem with people buying games they may never play. Oftentimes, people like me will buy something in order to support its existence, even if I don't necessarily want to play it right away.

@roxasthirteen said:

And the reason games are more expensive at launch is because it would ideally be a better experience (especially for multiplayer games). More players online, less chance of spoilers, and a generally more eager audience. If sales didn't eventually come along in a game's life the game would just die quicker.

Uh...no, the reason why games cost more at launch is that the majority of sales and hype for a game are right when it launches, within a week or so. Most games don't have very long tails. So the high cost is meant to recoup as many of the costs of production as possible and hopefully profit, and then the price is lowered as demand drops to try to continue selling it. Digital games have changed that frontier a little bit but the principle is still the same. It's part of the reason why movie tickets and newly released movies are so expensive too. Games nowadays often have a much worse experience at launch as they wait to be fully patched and all that, though the multiplayer aspect is a side benefit that has nothing to do with the price.

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DeadPanJazMan

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The whole reason prices go down is because most of the value of an entertainment product is in it being a new thing, so I don't see how you can justify charging more the later you buy. You wouldn't have a movie in a cinema cost $5 to see on opening night and then $10 once it had been showing for 2 months and everyone had already finished talking about it.

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deactivated-590b7522e5236

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Not sure i understand the problem, he says developers like the sales because they earn a good amount, the customers like the sales because they get to spend less, so both parties profit and are happy. Without the rejuvenating quality of sales the interest in a game dies of instantly and never comes back. Until the devaluation of games reaches a point where developers of great games aren't compensated properly i don't see much of a problem.

Having said that, i do believe the humble sales are quite extreme. If you remove the charity aspect (which has become easier to do over time) you are left with games being worth pennies.

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I never feel tricked when I buy a game during a Steam sale. Just the opposite in fact when I end up spending any amount of time on a game that costs less than lunch, I consider it money well spent.

I'm all for giving a discount to early adopters, but the idea that your game never again goes on sale seems like a great one if you want to make sure I never buy your game.

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idwolf

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Edited By idwolf

Games that I can't wait to play, I'll pay full price for: GTA:V, but games that I would never normally buy, I would buy for 75% off. That's my own behavior, and everyone's different, but that's how my budget operates. If he prefers nothing to my 25% or my 50%, then that's fine, but maybe it's less about the sale and more about the game's price. If a developer sinks too much money into development, should the consumer have to pay for that? No. That's just a lack of experience, and that's how businesses succeed or fail. Either prepare properly, or look out.

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Brozik

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Its curious as well that he wants to have the game start low and then sell at a higher price as time goes on... as if the game gains some kindof inherent value over time.

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saddlebrown

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"There’s a rush among game developers," he told me. "All of my friends that I know that are multimillionaires, they made more than half of their money in these Steam sales. Over the past couple of years, I’ve just been hearing all these stories from people. 'Oh, yeah, the sales are where you’re going to make your money, man! I did a midweek madness, and that doubled my money right there!” [laughs] 'I was deal of the day a few weeks later--and again! I doubled!' And they just act like this is the way it is and this is amazing. If you stop and ask one of them, 'you realize that most of those people who bought it, when it was midweek madness or whatever, don’t actually play it?' And they just shrug. 'Who cares, as long as I get their money, right?'"

Good for him. It's probably not a smart business decision, but he sounds like he's just more interested in actually getting people to play his game than simply buy it in a sale for a dollar and then forget they own it until the next Steam sale and they go to buy it and realize they already own it.

The PlayStation Store is getting that way as well with all the Instant Game Collection stuff. People start getting antsy about certain games, saying, "Why would I buy it when this is a game that will obviously become free in like six months?" And sometimes it totally does happen exactly like that. Personally, I just buy what I'm interested in on the day it comes out. If it goes free later, oh well. I got it six months early. The only problem with that mentality is that then the Instant Game Collection is basically useless to me because I usually already own the games worth playing. Like BioShock Infinite is coming out real soon for the IGC. Awesome right? Eh. I already own it. Very cool when games like Resogun and Don't Starve launch in the IGC, and the reason I bought a Vita was because I had so many Vita IGC games stacking up.

But PS Plus also splits the difference though by having a lot of launch day sales like what Rohrer is doing with his game. I love those. Sometimes they can push me to buy a game on day one that I was just on the fence about.

But yeah, I totally agree with him in an idealistic sense. I own a ton of Steam games I got on sale that I've never played because I forgot about them or "I'll get around to it eventually" or because I just fucking hate Steam so that extra step of dealing with Steam is often enough to make me say, "Eh, why even bother?" and I'll do something else.

That's the idealistic sense though. Pragmatically, if I were him or advising him, I'd absolutely go for the sales and make bank. It's the easiest way to spur more purchases late in the life cycle and get your game in the public eye again.

To split the difference though, I hope he abandons the "no sales ever" mentality and throws it onto the Humble Store at some point, or at least features it in a Humble Bundle. Then, sure, it's on sale and people might not play it, but a portion of that money goes to charity so it's still worth it. Besides, people might buy it for full price and still not play it. There's no way to force someone to play your game, nor should you try to.

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pedanticjase

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So If I understand correctly he thinks that increasing the price ups the stakes so if you do buy the game you either like it or play it long enough to learn to like it.

If instead of arbitrary increases it was timed with major content updates I suppose that would be cool (much like the expansion pack model of the olden days )

I think sales are fine as they allow people to take a low risk foray into a new genre and arguably this will create greater diversity in the titles we all get to play.


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The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)

That's what constitutes a controversy these days?

I really hope the "controversy" there is just a joke about how Patrick used "their" instead of "his," because if its actually about the premise starring a man, then just... wow.

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But then why not just give that some money to a cause or a business, or even an individual developer(s), that you think is actually worthy of it instead of it being an after the fact justification for buying a game that you ultimately don't care about? Is the blanket of "Game Development" just by itself enough.

Alternatively what about the "Fuck EA/Activison/Ubisoft/etc., I'm not buying their games at full price because they're all assholes" line of reasoning for never buying games at full price? How does that get worked back into never buying indie games at full prices even though they're not Heartless Corporations and their games are generally significantly cheaper. After all, it would be better for a developer you like to get more money, right?

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Majkiboy

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I like this policy, I hope it is the future. Steam sales suck (as they work now).

I've heard countless people wanting to buy a game, like REALLY badly. They have jobs, they can afford it, but they just know that the game will be on sale, so they wait. When the sale finally comes, they DON'T Fucking buy it. Why? Because they are waiting for the next "flash" sale or another even more ridicoulous sale. This is only due to the current state of the game market on Steam where you know that something will be on sale. That is not how the market should work imho.

But maybe there are just to many games out there, and people want to play them all. And sometimes people just want to support a developer.

But it is how it is, and probably better than everyone just pirating stuff.

Remember when that was a thing? :D

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But the important thing about buying things on sale is the fact that you're getting a thing for cheap. Any altruism that comes out of that is purely coincidental, not the intent.

And this is actually pretty much my point. That regardless of your intent, buying a game that the dev has intentionally put on sale is good for them. It's not at all "pissing money away", because they're profiting from it. It's a transaction that benefits game creators, no matter what your level of personal investment in that game is.

That's a good thing.

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@joshwent: That's an entirely meaningless argument though. You could have spent that five dollars anywhere and had a similar effect, but just on a different industry.

e: Okay it just ate like 90% of my text of the message. Rewriting.

As you're clicking that purchase button on Steam during a sale buying the fifteenth game that you know deep down that you'll probably never play, whats going through your mind? Because I doubt it's “I'm having a positive financial impact on the publisher and maybe even the developer of this game” and instead it's “Well, it's cheap so even if it don't really play it it's not that big of a loss”. I don't think you're justifying it as making a donation, I think you're buying a game because its cheap. That justification only comes after the fact that you've bought a thing you're never going to play, or at most will play a few times.

If you were interested in altruism, you'd be donating to indie developers or donating to game development scholarship funds. But the important thing about buying things on sale is the fact that you're getting a thing for cheap. Any altruism that comes out of that is purely coincidental, not the intent.

And that's why you're not making those donations. I'm not making those donations either, but I'm also not just buying things because they're cheap anymore either. I've realized that I'm just pissing money away when I do that.

"You" in the above not being you just as an individual, but the general you.

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Edited By AlbinoJerk

The market doesn't need to be watched over by some erudite keeper-of-ethics at the expense of competition, especially when everybody is getting paid and getting what they want. Video games are like any other piece of media. People will find out what something is worth to them and then pay that. Rohrer is up his own ass if he doesn't realize that a lot of people can't afford to pay full price for everything they want to play, or that things aren't always worth what the content creators think they are. That is the only power the consumer has. The reason people get excited for steam sales is because they are actually good. You have a more than decent chance of finding recent, quality games for 50% or more off. I could not play nearly as many games if I had to purchase everything at full price. I win and the people that make the content win. Some people are crazy hoarders or collectors, you aren't going to fix the holes in their personalities with some quixotic fucking nonsense.

His games are pretty cool, but the gall of saying

"But at the same time, me, as a developer, being turned from a millionaire into a multimillionaire, by effectively tricking a bunch of people into wasting money on something they’ll never use? I, personally, don’t feel good about that."

You didn't trick anybody, you little shit. If I don't need something, and I haven't needed a video game in my entire damn life, I wait until I can get it cheap. I'm not normally the internet fury person, but fuck this guy.

Edit: I have a lot of games in my Steam library. I have played most of them, some I haven't yet. I also have books in my actual library I haven't read yet. When it comes to my hobbies I get things that stand out to me if it makes sense to. It is none of the concern of the authors whether I read their book yet or where I bought it.

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@circlenine: Or... maybe engage with some of our actually thoughtful responses instead of aggressively dismissing everything that's been said in over 400 comments? Let me pose a simple question.

So, a dev/publisher voluntarily sets their sales on Steam. This might be to compete with other sales in a big event, as Rohrer posits, but it usually is more of a calculated and specifically timed effort to keep a game relevant and profitable for as long as possible after its initial release. If I buy one of those games, and never play it, who is that harming exactly? You could argue I wasted, say, $5, but I chose to spend that money which could have just gone to lunch or comic books or anything else. But that money went to the creators of that game, which is good, because that helps to allow them to make more games in the future. And even if I never intended on playing it, I have it, and maybe I someday I'll check it out and enjoy it and then continue to intentionally support those creators in the future.

If I had just donated $5 to that developer and not bought their game, would that still be a sign of "horrible spending habits"?

Rohrer wanting people who play his games to be invested in the experience is fine. But the concept that sales are bad for players just makes no sense at all.

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circlenine

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I mean maybe he has a point that you don't need every imaginable game in your Steam library that you might decide to play one day for only 10 minutes after you've spent more time downloading and installing it. But maybe this comment section also has a point in that because you all want it all that he's probably totally wrong about everything.

Especially because he makes a point how that's effectively wasted money but most of you just read the article title and then didn't bother to read any of his points but whatever I suppose. Like even these forums recently had a thread about how large your steam library is versus how many of the games you've either played at all or play with any regularity that kind of highlight his point. But you know, keep on being defensive about horrible spending habits that even you realize are horrible spending habits.

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SharkEthic

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@somejerk said:

Still cannot believe the amount of people who say and believe in

" I'll wait until it appears on PS+/SteamSale/HumbleBundle "

Still cannot believe those people are intelligent enough to post on the internet either.

Wow... You wanna know who I can't believe is intelligent enough to post on the internet? It's you.

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Branthog

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Okay. I won't buy your game at *all*, then.

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circlenine

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I bought Inside A Star Filled Sky at launch as an impulse buy because the the 10% or whatever off sale it had. I played it twice because I thought it was a bad and not fun game. Since then I haven't bought anything else he's made.

That isn't that his argument is entirely without a point, but gamer's certainly won't listen to anything or anyone saying "maybe you should have less games, especially when you never bother to play 90% of them anyways," especially with how whiny and entitled gamer's are.

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snowflame

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Even Patrick admits the argument is a fallacy in the title, so yeah.

Using Nintendo as an example is funny. Their console titles are generally priced 10 dollars below what competing consoles price their titles, but they never really go on sale. Yet he's boasting of having a higher price than rival titles of similar quality. Que?

Also, I agree with the poster who said that sales entice people to play a game they would otherwise never try. The idea that that someone who bought a game on sale would have eventually bought your game at full price is simply not true a lot of the time. It's the same as the anti-piracy argument that some one who pirates something would have paid full price if they had no other choice, when in reality it doesn't work that way. You're overestimating how some one else values the product.

I see some point in the argument that "if no one buys a game until it's on sale, why would you ever buy full price?" but it's really just the digital flip side to used games. There are many titles I am happy to pay full price for because I feel the game is worth the price and I want to play it right away. However, if your answer to the "problem" of "rampant sales" is to never have sales, ever, I think you're just hurting yourself. But that's his choice.

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Wilshere

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So he is bummed out because lots of people don't play his game to completion. He blames that on great amount of purchased games. Ok then. Sales are still good for both parties.

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avantegardener

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I just got broadband in my new place, this article if nothing else reminds me the incredible dearth of games I have purchased through sales and humble bundles, which I will be downloading (in mere minutes!) and playing this evening. Finally I can check out what all this 'Gone Home' business is all about and dip my toe into Spelunky (Eww?).

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OGJackWagon69

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Edited By OGJackWagon69

I would not have about 75% of my library if it wasn't for steam sales, and I buy games that I PLAY, not shit that I don't want to play or do not have time to play. I mean would Rohrer rather I not play his game at all because I don't have the extra money to throw at it at full price, or would he rather me and several other people who game on a tighter budget, buy his game at sale price and give him more money while recommending the game to others if we enjoyed it.

I mean if people are too stupid and shallow to give your game a chance past the tutorial you should be glad you ripped them off.

EDIT: Also its really none of Rohrer's business whether I spend any time playing his game or not, that's for me to decide as a consumer.

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RonGalaxy

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If it's bad for developers then developers will stop opting in for their games to be included in sales. If it's bad for gamers, gamers will stop buying sales. This is just silly. Everything goes on sale, every consumer market has year round/yearly sales.

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@somejerk: and then there are the rest of us that wouldn't get to experience games like Far Cry 3, or Rogue Legacy, or Sleeping Dogs, The Witcher 2, or any of the other amazing games I've picked up on Steam sales otherwise.

It's not that I don't find value in paying full price for a game. I'm in the Starbound beta right now. I grab as many games as I can afford at full price. The fact that I can't afford to just plop down $20 or more, multiple times a month for things that I would love to play doesn't mean that I'm waiting for sales because I just want a deal. Steam sales allow me to take part in the hobby that I love, and right now, I owe a shit ton of student loan debt.

If I could buy games at full price, believe me, I would. I think it's ridiculous to think that people who participate in game sales are "special". I also usually participate in Humble Bundles. Because I like that I can put the full amount into charity and I also usually get some cool games out of it.

It's pretentious to come at this from the standpoint of "I don't wait for sales and the people who do are total dumb twats." Not everyone who waits for sales would have bought these games otherwise.

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brandino

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@somejerk said:

Still cannot believe the amount of people who say and believe in

" I'll wait until it appears on PS+/SteamSale/HumbleBundle "

Still cannot believe those people are intelligent enough to post on the internet either.

e: I am however not using adblock on certified safe sites with reliable ad providers. And yes I believe the people who sit and wait for sales are pretty fucking special. And yes I use anything, even clothes, in real life until it breaks, because I believe in getting the most out of something. And yes, I'm back to collecting arcade games, triple digits per game and enjoying every credit and then some. There is value in not waiting for a sale. There is value in not crying about spoilers due to waiting ten months before buying a game.

You can't believe that there are college kids who can't afford to drop $30,40,60 on games like you can? Some people don't have money to buy all these games and rely on a service like PS+ or steam sale/humble bundles. There is nothing wrong with it. To think lesser of them or to consider them ignorant just makes you come off a douche bag prick.