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The Slippery Slope of Video Game Sales

Passage and The Castle Doctrine designer Jason Rohrer believes our newfound culture of video game sales is hurting players and developers at the same time.

(UPDATE: You can now listen to our whole interview on the Interview Dumptruck.)

Can you remember the last time there wasn't a video game sale going on? This only happened recently, but the culture of perpetual sales caught fire quickly, and it's only getting bigger. The upside of sales are clear: cheaper games. But Passage, Inside a Star-filled Sky, and and Diamond Trust of London developer Jason Rohrer has a new game, and isn't so sure sales always benefit for developers and players.

Rohrer has been independently making games for years. In 2013, he had a Kickstarter to produce a set of DS cartridges.
Rohrer has been independently making games for years. In 2013, he had a Kickstarter to produce a set of DS cartridges.

Rohrer recently published an essay on the website called "Why Rampant Sales are Bad for Players" for his next release, The Castle Doctrine. When the game is released later this month, the current price, $8, will have a temporary launch price of $12. After a week, however, the price will become $16--forever. There will be no sales for The Castle Doctrine. Period. Basically, Rohrer wants to reward early adopters, not punish them with having to pay more money.

The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family) to Rohrer's reaction to his life experiences that have informed the game's development (being attacked by dogs).

Rohrer's stance on the game's relationship with sales is the latest development, albeit one with somewhat less moral messiness alongside it. Nonetheless, broaching the topic resulted in the most web traffic Rohrer has seen on his website since the game was announced last year.

Clearly, Rohrer has touched a sensitive subject for all parties involved.

"There’s a rush among game developers," he told me. "All of my friends that I know that are multimillionaires, they made more than half of their money in these Steam sales. Over the past couple of years, I’ve just been hearing all these stories from people. 'Oh, yeah, the sales are where you’re going to make your money, man! I did a midweek madness, and that doubled my money right there!” [laughs] 'I was deal of the day a few weeks later--and again! I doubled!' And they just act like this is the way it is and this is amazing. If you stop and ask one of them, 'you realize that most of those people who bought it, when it was midweek madness or whatever, don’t actually play it?' And they just shrug. 'Who cares, as long as I get their money, right?'"

To be clear, Rohrer doesn't really begrudge his friends for cashing in on what seems to make sense. But he does wonder if there's unintended consequences to this movement, as is the case with any "rush." On the App Store, the rush resulted in a race to the bottom on price, as more games decided the best way to make money was to charge less, hoping to make up for the lack of initial investment with volume.

(If you'll remember, this is what Nintendo president Satoru Iwata famously criticized in his keynote at the Game Developers Conference in 2011. He felt it devalued the quality of games.)

And furthermore, it's not like Rohrer hasn't benefited from the very practice he's now questioning. His last game, Inside a Star-filled Sky, was the benefit of many Steam sales before Rohrer pulled the plug. Rohrer said he made a "substantial amount of money" from these Steam sales.

But he started to notice a pattern when Inside a Star-filled Sky wasn't on sale: no one bought it. Almost no one, anyway. Sales were flat in-between sales, and garnering a new level of interest on the next sale meant offering deeper and deeper discounts. As other developers offered bigger discounts, he felt compelled to do the same thing. In his essay, Rohrer offered this sales graph to illustrate the point:

No Caption Provided

There was a surprising counterpoint within Rohrer's own library of work, too. Another one of his games, Sleep Is Death, was simultaneously available on his website during the same period. During the times when Inside a Star-filled Sky wasn't on sale and Sleep Is Death was full price, Sleep Is Death was making more money. What Rohrer discovered was that our new culture of games sales, something he’d benefited from and supported himself, had conditioned people to avoid full price.

"A lot of people use the term 'trained.' [laughs]" he said. "[It's uncomfortable] having any of these kinds of discussions about marketing and 'should you price your game at $1 or $0.99? Or should it be $9.99 or $10?' All these psychological tricks that marketers have learned over the years. 'Have the price high, so you can discount it later!' All these kinds of things [are] because of psychology. I feel a little slimy dealing with it and thinking in these terms. I especially feel a little slimy about thinking about how we’ve 'trained' our customers. They’re just clapping their fins together and throwing money at us!"

"As a developer, being turned from a millionaire into a multi-millionaire, by effectively tricking a bunch of people into wasting money on something they’ll never use? I, personally, don’t feel good about that."

There's a reason Rohrer titled his essay "Why Rampant Sales are Bad for Players." The culture of sales seems to be eroding his ability to sell games over the longterm, and it impacts early adopters. Rohrer hypothesized the poor soul who purchased one of his games a few minutes before an unannounced sale kicks in. What does that person think? Do they feel okay having spent anywhere from 50-to-75% more than the next person?

This situation wasn't a hypothetical when it came to a Sleep Is Death customer, though. For a period, Sleep Is Death adopted a pay-what-you-want pricing model. The game had been $12, but pay-what-you-want means you pay the developer whatever you think the game is worth. Not long after the change, he received an email from a player purchased the game just prior to the pay-what-you-want change, and he was upset.

"This person’s argument was [that] 'I only have $12 in my bank account, and I just spent it on your game and I won’t be able to buy another game.'" he said. "Some of these people are kids. They get allowance or have a birthday present [where] they get $20 from their grandma or something. 'It’s a game we’re all playing with money' is not true for a lot of people. A lot of people really have to think very hard about what game they spend their money on."

Rohrer asked the player what he wanted to pay. The player's response? $3. So Rohrer refunded him $9.

It's not entirely about the money, either. It's also about how he design games. Rohrer said The Castle Doctrine is not a game that takes five minutes to "click." He suspects it will take players a week before the systems really make sense. That's quite a bit of time, but Rohrer doesn't have a way of making the big payoff in the opening moments--it's not that type of game. He needs players willing to invest.

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When Inside Star-filled Sky went on sale, Rohrer searched through the comments and reviews from players. Steam profiles list the time someone has spent playing a game, and Rohrer noticed a crucial detail with players who didn't like Inside a Star-filled Sky: they weren't spending much time with it.

"Every single person who’s giving it a negative review played it for less than an hour, which means they didn’t even get through the tutorial, the part where the cool stuff is explained," he said. "The people who paid full price for it, whatever the full price was at the time that they bought it, gave it a chance. Some of them played it for hundreds of hours. I really think that if you want to make a more subtle game, one that’s not necessarily going to beat you over the head with what’s cool about it right from the first screen. [If] you want to make a game that takes longer and lingers more and is more about the long term experience, then, yeah, pricing the game higher really will help you have almost all the players who come in be willing to get to that point."

Rohrer's suggestion that the larger investment we have in something, the more we're willing to give it a chance, doesn't sound too crazy, if a bit counterintuitive. Look at it a different way. When you were a kid, did your parents ever buy you a totally crappy game? I remember getting some awful licensed games as a kid, and while I would have preferred Chrono Trigger, I didn't have a choice, so I sucked it up and played through what was in front of me and tried to find enjoyment in that. If I spent $20 on a game, I want to know what it's about. If I spend $2 on a game, I might be inclined to turn it off after my initial reaction.

As he researched his essay, Rohrer came across the idea of a "shame list." Players were posting all of the games picked up in a Steam sale, games they knew they would never have time to play. But when a potentially interesting game is available for $2, why not buy it? Isn't it a win-win? The developer is being rewarded with money and the player suddenly has cheap access to a game.

The days and weeks leading up to a season Steam sale often pushes players into a fever pitch of anticipation.
The days and weeks leading up to a season Steam sale often pushes players into a fever pitch of anticipation.

"When a player comes along and does a shame list," he said, "where they have 300 games in the library, of which they’ve only played 30--that’s bad for players! They wasted their money. And people say 'they don’t need to be babysat, they’re adults or people who can make their own choices, we don’t need to hold their hands as developers and make sure they don’t make bad choice.' But at the same time, me, as a developer, being turned from a millionaire into a multimillionaire, by effectively tricking a bunch of people into wasting money on something they’ll never use? I, personally, don’t feel good about that. I don’t think that’s good for those people. I don’t necessarily think it’s McDonalds’ job to make sure we all eat healthy, but at the same time, I wouldn’t want to be running a fast food restaurant myself."

Right now, the plan is for The Castle Doctrine to never have a sale. Rohrer believes it make sense right now, but it's hard to anticipate the future, and nothing applies to every developer's situation. But it's started an interesting conversation.

When asked, he didn't have a good answer as to why The Castle Doctrine will be priced at $16. He just sort of settled on it. It's certainly more expensive than games his friends have made, though.

"It was kind of scary saying 'The Castle Doctrine will be $16 dollars,'" he said. " [...] Should it only be $6 and then go up to $12? Should it be $5 and go up to $10? You don’t know what effect this is going to have. It’s scary to make your price higher than everybody else. The Castle Doctrine will be more than Fez. [laughs] The Castle Doctrine will be more than Braid ever was. The Castle Doctrine will be more than Super Meat Boy. Yeah, I don’t know. It seems scary, but on the other hand, it very well may be the right thing to do, and maybe even got it set too low."

Patrick Klepek on Google+

455 Comments

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CakeTeleporter

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Edited By CakeTeleporter

@patrickklepek:

I guess the problem I have with the artcle is the lack of critique or analysis of the idea in the text, this isn't some abysmal troglodytic appeal to objective or balanced journalism; more that I think something more in depth would have been better. I realise there could well be a followup, and that this Is how thoughts from duptrucks and interviews are presented but I simply can't reconcile the lack of pushback to such inherently problematic and unsubstantiated ideas.

As others have I could write a massive critique of Rohrer's thoughts but I feel those are pretty self evident. I will just expand on one point that I think rarely comes up when these articles on sales appear.

For all Rohrer presents himself as not being about money his, Iwata's, and others arguments are at least tacitly dependant on the nauseating and mendacious notion that the monetary value of an entertainment/art product and peoples willingness to pay for it in any way relates to its cultural value and/or quality. This notion shows a massive and pretty damming lack of reflection on modern society for someone making the kind of games Rohrer does.

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ICantBeStopped

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Edited By ICantBeStopped

@icantbestopped said:

@alwaysbebombing said:

@authenticm said:

The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)

Oh for fuck's sake. Are people seriously getting angry over this ?

Have you ever been to the internet?

I don't understand what's to get mad about

I think some people get frustrated because it re-enforces a negative social construct that women are weak and need protecting. I think so don't quote me on that.

Well, on average, they're weaker than men, so in a scenario where the family is in danger, the strongest one should do the protecting. That's common sense, and if people want to turn that into gender politics, that's fine. They're also morons.

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Brozik

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Yeah, this dude is trying to pull some idealist type shit where people only ever get games that are super meaningful and totally worth every penny. A game is a product like anything else, and like any product - consumer demand is going to shape the way it is developed. That includes marketing, pricing, content, etc. To judge those developments as immoral, as opposed to simply manifestations of the market itself, is a little dumb. I get what he's saying, that he doesn't judge McDonald's for selling shitty food, but that he would not want to work there, but he's judging McDonald's as immoral all the same.

It really gets to that question about video games - whether they are art or entertainment - that applies to all forms of media (music, film, television, etc.). Just look at movies, in the 20's they were cheap entertainment, now they can bring people to tears. Same thing is happening with video games now.

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bybeach

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Edited By bybeach

I have some sincere sympathy for the dev who doesn't think his game is getting a fair price, and that steam sales for example are subversive to a good business model, even handed to both buyer and seller. Again, I crack up when some poster is way lowering the price point of a game cause he/she just doesn't really want to pay monies.

But hey, it is human nature, including mine, to look for a deal. We have to in life, especially for the luxury items(ie, nice video card), not mentioning the necessities such as toilet paper. I will not pay $725 for that 780 ti, at least not today. Heard a rumor of more memory in the future, and gawd yes, there may be a sale of sorts. Personally I am surprised the sales are really benefiting some devs, but I guess they are. And yes, I do get games on cheap I probably will not play, because Pat or Jeff or somebody liked them and I wondered if I would...can't help that! Right now that is Broken Age and Ultra Business tycoon lll, though I do poorly at adventure games and the other one is deliberately left field, which may well work for me....maybe.

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UltimAXE

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I spend a lot of time on video game message boards. I constantly read about how games should look better, sound better, be longer, have more characters and features, have the DLC included, ect. I simultaneously see topics implying that they are never willing to pay full price for a game and will always wait until something is on sale. $60? Nonsense. Wait until it's $10. You can't have it both ways; you can't want games to be better and flashier and cost more money to make while refusing to pay the necessary premium.

I'm "guilty" of it, too. I love saving money. The Steam sale is insane and awesome. But I also have no problem paying more when I want more.

Also, yes, I totally realize that not everybody is fortunate enough to drop 60 bucks on a luxury item whenever they want. Totally fair. I'm referring to people who imply that they could afford it, but feel that they don't have to because game X is not worthy of it, or whatever.

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alwaysbebombing

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@alwaysbebombing said:

@authenticm said:

The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)

Oh for fuck's sake. Are people seriously getting angry over this ?

Have you ever been to the internet?

I don't understand what's to get mad about

I think some people get frustrated because it re-enforces a negative social construct that women are weak and need protecting. I think so don't quote me on that.

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taig

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I do not understand the idea that changing the perceived value of a product, putting it on sale, negatively impacts early adopters. This feels like a rationalization to keep that value inflated, even at the potential cost of sales. The idea that he is doing anyone a favor by keeping his game out of potential customers hands is silly, unless of course he is (because it is bad)

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WasabiCurry

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I am truly, truly evil because I bought most of my games from sales, humbles, etc. On one hand, I see where the guy is coming, not having a lot of time to play games and yet still amassing them can create a backlog issue. Also, we have been conditioned to just simply wait. Heck, I wait for a lot things that I may be interested in, but definitely not at worth paying 40 dollars! It is that we know that game on our wish list will go down in price, but I do disagree with his assertion that people have less appreciation for buying it cheaper.

I think he is trying to make a statement that if you have more money tied into a game, you feel more obligated to play it. However, it this was true with every game, a lot more people would still be playing WoW and Maplestory from the mass amount of spending in those games.

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Oldirtybearon

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Edited By Oldirtybearon

@authenticm said:

The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)

Oh for fuck's sake. Are people seriously getting angry over this ?

I don't even. What?

Just, what?

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ICantBeStopped

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@authenticm said:

The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)

Oh for fuck's sake. Are people seriously getting angry over this ?

Have you ever been to the internet?

I don't understand what's to get mad about

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Onomatopoeia

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The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)

Oh for fuck's sake. Are people seriously getting angry over this ?

Yes. People really are this fucking stupid.

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Corvak

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Can't say I agree with the arguments here. As far as what a game is "worth", thats a complex formula taking into account the development cost, production and distribution costs, and the total number of sales. The only way to break down the value of one copy or license of a game, is to examine the costs incurred to create it.

I don't quite buy into the "I need you to pay more, i'm trying to support my family" mentality either. Welcome to capitalism, and digital versions of video games are a product with an unlimited supply, and limited demand. That said, all of the numbers i've seen point to sales resulting in a net gain for developers.

But if someone truly cares about this sort of thing, about the livelihood of others - maybe they should think about it next time they're in line for fast food, buying a $5 burger combo from someone who has to work two jobs to pay the rent.

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alwaysbebombing

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The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)

Oh for fuck's sake. Are people seriously getting angry over this ?

Have you ever been to the internet?

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dawnofthesean

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Jason Rohrer dreams of a day when every game is $80 and there is an assault rifle in every house.

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AuthenticM

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The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family)

Oh for fuck's sake. Are people seriously getting angry over this ?

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alwaysbebombing

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@budwyzer said:

@starvinggamer said:

@joshwent said:

His other point, that getting games for cheap makes you less invested, just seems obviously wrong. No matter what you spend on a game, if you dislike it, that's all that matters. And if you spent more money on a game, it only follows that you'll dislike it... more.

I wish I could find it but actually there was a study that shows that the more expensive something is, the higher your opinion of it is likely to be. It has something to do with your brain trying to reconcile two conflicting ideas: "I spent a lot of money on this thing" and "this thing sucks". Since the cost is a fixed point of data, the only flex room your brain has is in your opinion, so your brain tricks you into thinking it's better than it actually is.

Nope.

I bought FTL for about $2. Loved the hell out of it. STILL love it.

I bought The Bureau for about $25. Was pissed at myself for it, because I expected a higher quality than I got.

Same with FTL duder. I got it on sale and have racked up like, 50 hours or something ridiculous like that.

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rm082e

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@rm082e said:

I really like your work on Giant Bomb and appreciate your viewpoint, but stories like this one or the booth babes article you did a long while back genuinely make me ask a few questions:

1. Is Patrick only writing this article because he knows it will result in a ton of mixed/angry comments that will drive up page views, or does he have a genuine interest in the subject matter he is covering?

2. Is he purposely using the words of other people to convey an opinion he has without directly stating it himself so that he can hide behind a "journalist" badge rather than a "blogger" badge?

To be clear, I'm not accusing you of baiting, it's just that the subjects discussed in some of these articles feel like total bait material. I guess that's the point though right? You would rather talk about something that will inspire discussion (of all variety) rather than write top ten most wanted lists and other boring garbage? Makes sense.

My point is, I'm a member who really likes what you contribute to the site and the work you do, but even I raise an eyebrow at some of the things you write about. I suspect that means you've done a good job. :)

Of course not. Jason Rohrer is a well respected game designer who's made some excellent games in the past. I don't agree with everything Jason has to say, but the counterintuitive notion that game sales (could) create create unforeseen negative consequences is absolutely a conversation with having. If I wanted to publish articles just to generate comments, there are way easier ways to do that than spending an hour researching Jason's topic, two hours transcribing our interview, an hour writing our interview, half an hour edited the article design, and finally half an hour editing the podcast version of the interview. :)

You mean you didn't crap this out in twenty minutes while eating a sandwich and watching porn?

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koolaid

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Edited By koolaid

This discussion seems really strange to me. People seem to be taking this really, really personally. Do people think that he is saying that players who buy games on steam sale are bad people? That's not how I read this at all.

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EuanDewar

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why does everyone keep mentioning Indy. what's that whip swinging twat got to do with it

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Lextalionis

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Never putting your game on sale and increasing the price over time works if you're Notch.

Price isn't the only component in the sales equation. Those games on Steam Sale are visible front-and-center on the site at precisely the time buyers are looking to spend money. One way to look at those price cuts is that they're a form of advertisement.

Rohrer knows that making controversial statements that are picked up by the gaming press is also good advertisement.

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shaggydude

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Edited By shaggydude

I think Rohrer's price plan only works with games that are in a constant state of development. If you look at games like Minecraft and now recently with Starbound, you'll notice they don't go on sale. DayZ and Rust are at the top of the sales chart on Steam right now and they haven't gone on sale. They are funding continued development of a single game that changes it's content instead of it's price. Personally, I hope both of these kinds of games can continue to find an audience, but I think games that don't change their content need discounts every so often to keep them relevant, and to keep their developers in business.

Minecraft and it's imitators owe a lot of their success to keeping an open dialogue with their audience and having a game that encourages evolution, not just from the devs but from the community who play it. They set the price, they don't go on sale, and it's attractive because they have a team continuing to work on it without charging players by the month! I truly believe that the developers of these games are trying to create new buzz whenever they patch, instead of coming up with a whole new game. IF they manage to keep improving the product, they prove themselves to their existing audience, and they win over newcomers by proving that their static price is worthy. When games like this exist, they make MMOs look expensive and they make more traditional games come off as products dumped on the market. If Rohrer really thinks he can dictate a static price for a game that doesn't change, I think he's using a flawed sales strategy.

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ICantBeStopped

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Edited By ICantBeStopped

It could be that people aren't buying his games in particular because they're pixelated art indy nonsense? I've never heard of any of his games, or seen them on sale, looking them up, I can kind of see why. A lot of times, I won't think a game is worth the asking price, so I'll wait, and I'll jump in for less later on, and I'll have a good time with it down the road, even though it could be years.

Rarely, I'll pick up a game for cheap and find it was one of the best things I've ever played, and buy the sequel at full price because they're good games, but more often than not, I know what I like and what I want to play right away.

Also, people who didn't buy the game at full price and buy it on a sale and have it sitting in a game queue for 'someday' are more likely to play your game and show it to others than those who will never play it or buy it at all. If you want to count out all the ones who would pick it up for the price they think it's actually worth, you're going to reach less people.

I'm not sure why this guy was given a podium. Not everything every indy developer says is interesting.

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Monkeyman04

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Edited By Monkeyman04

@monkeyman04 said:

I love sales. If I buy a game on sale and it's completely broken (looking at you Fez) then there's no grass off my ass if you ask me. I just forget about the game and move on.

Even if you purchase it pre-owned and you enjoy it you'll probably buy a game from that developer in future.

Any sale is a good sale to the developer if that person likes what they make.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to play Fez and see if I would enjoy it, but I can't when most of the text bubbles are black, the menu screen is blank, and the one button on my gamepad (Logitech dual action) that doesn't work is the interact button.

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pyromagnestir

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@hermes said:

@pyromagnestir said:

@hermes said:

@internetdetective said:

This sounds a lot like the piracy argument, where 1 pirated game equals 1 lost sale. It's bullshit.

The truth is that I have bought lots of games for 3 to 6 dollars that I would have NEVER bought at full price. So instead of getting $0 from me the developer got a few bucks from me just for curiosity.

That's good for me and the game maker.

Exactly.

This guy seems to be making the wrong conclusions out of the sales data, and wishing he could combine the sales numbers with the no-sales prices.

But it doesn't work that way. Sales numbers are bigger because people pay attention to games they would not pay attention otherwise...

That doesn't seem to be what he's saying at all... He readily admits he and others make more money and have way more people buy their games when sales come into play, but only a small percentage of them play the game for any significant amount of time. He's saying if people pay more money for his game then a higher percentage of them are likely to actually play it and that's what he wants.

Does it even matter, though?

Some of the games I have bought, I did because I found the idea interesting or wanted to support the people behind it. In that sense, paying for it is the only thing I can do. I outright admit that I have bought several games knowing that I would not play them for a while (not because they are bad, because my PC is crap that way). He argues that I am a victim of capitalism, when in truth, I just want to support the developers that I like and the kind of games I like to exist.

I get that he wants the audience reached to be a real audience, but I think he is making a big deal out of a no-victims scenario. As others have said, the alternative of buying a game when you feel comfortable doing it is not buying it when you don't feel comfortable about it, its value or its price... it is NOT buying it at all.

I also think he may have a point when saying that most people that give it a negative review played for less than an hour, but I can't help to think he would be less critical of people that played for just as long but gave it a positive review.

I don't agree with the guy's assumptions or conclusions about people who buy or play his game or others for low or high prices, quite the opposite in fact. I was just pointing out that at no point is he arguing he can make more money or even completely make up for the money he'd make from sales by making his games always be the same price. He doesn't seem to mind the possibility of getting less money if more people who buy the game actually play it, and that's his choice, and it's admirable in a way.

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Onomatopoeia

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I love sales. If I buy a game on sale and it's completely broken (looking at you Fez) then there's no grass off my ass if you ask me. I just forget about the game and move on.

Even if you purchase it pre-owned and you enjoy it you'll probably buy a game from that developer in future.

Any sale is a good sale to the developer if that person likes what they make.

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TrafalgarLaw

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No sale on your game? I'll wait for the inevitable Humble Bundle with your game on it, donate all of the $1 to charities!

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hermes

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@starvinggamer said:

@joshwent said:

His other point, that getting games for cheap makes you less invested, just seems obviously wrong. No matter what you spend on a game, if you dislike it, that's all that matters. And if you spent more money on a game, it only follows that you'll dislike it... more.

I wish I could find it but actually there was a study that shows that the more expensive something is, the higher your opinion of it is likely to be. It has something to do with your brain trying to reconcile two conflicting ideas: "I spent a lot of money on this thing" and "this thing sucks". Since the cost is a fixed point of data, the only flex room your brain has is in your opinion, so your brain tricks you into thinking it's better than it actually is.

Actually, that anchoring effect works both ways. Its the reason more people buy something when its reduced to $10 than if it costed $10 to begin with.

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Monkeyman04

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I love sales. If I buy a game on sale and it's completely broken (looking at you Fez) then there's no grass off my ass if you ask me. I just forget about the game and move on.

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@turambar said:

"There’s a rush among game developers," he told me. "All of my friends that I know that are multimillionaires, they made more than half of their money in these Steam sales. Over the past couple of years, I’ve just been hearing all these stories from people. 'Oh, yeah, the sales are where you’re going to make your money, man! I did a midweek madness, and that doubled my money right there!” [laughs] 'I was deal of the day a few weeks later--and again! I doubled!' And they just act like this is the way it is and this is amazing. If you stop and ask one of them, 'you realize that most of those people who bought it, when it was midweek madness or whatever, don’t actually play it?' And they just shrug. 'Who cares, as long as I get their money, right?'"

This entire section felt incredibly surreal when reading it, to the point that I'm actually doubting its veracity.

You can listen to it yourself on the Interview Dumptruck, thankfully!

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hermes

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@pyromagnestir said:

@hermes said:

@internetdetective said:

This sounds a lot like the piracy argument, where 1 pirated game equals 1 lost sale. It's bullshit.

The truth is that I have bought lots of games for 3 to 6 dollars that I would have NEVER bought at full price. So instead of getting $0 from me the developer got a few bucks from me just for curiosity.

That's good for me and the game maker.

Exactly.

This guy seems to be making the wrong conclusions out of the sales data, and wishing he could combine the sales numbers with the no-sales prices.

But it doesn't work that way. Sales numbers are bigger because people pay attention to games they would not pay attention otherwise...

That doesn't seem to be what he's saying at all... He readily admits he and others make more money and have way more people buy their games when sales come into play, but only a small percentage of them play the game for any significant amount of time. He's saying if people pay more money for his game then a higher percentage of them are likely to actually play it and that's what he wants.

Does it even matter, though?

Some of the games I have bought, I did because I found the idea interesting or wanted to support the people behind it. In that sense, paying for it is the only thing I can do. I outright admit that I have bought several games knowing that I would not play them for a while (not because they are bad, because my PC is crap that way). He argues that I am a victim of capitalism, when in truth, I just want to support the developers that I like and the kind of games I like to exist.

I get that he wants the audience reached to be a real audience, but I think he is making a big deal out of a no-victims scenario. As others have said, the alternative of buying a game when you feel comfortable doing it is not buying it when you don't feel comfortable about it, its value or its price... it is NOT buying it at all.

I also think he may have a point when saying that most people that give it a negative review played for less than an hour, but I can't help to think he would be less critical of people that played for just as long but gave it a positive review.

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patrickklepek

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Edited By patrickklepek

@rm082e said:

I really like your work on Giant Bomb and appreciate your viewpoint, but stories like this one or the booth babes article you did a long while back genuinely make me ask a few questions:

1. Is Patrick only writing this article because he knows it will result in a ton of mixed/angry comments that will drive up page views, or does he have a genuine interest in the subject matter he is covering?

2. Is he purposely using the words of other people to convey an opinion he has without directly stating it himself so that he can hide behind a "journalist" badge rather than a "blogger" badge?

To be clear, I'm not accusing you of baiting, it's just that the subjects discussed in some of these articles feel like total bait material. I guess that's the point though right? You would rather talk about something that will inspire discussion (of all variety) rather than write top ten most wanted lists and other boring garbage? Makes sense.

My point is, I'm a member who really likes what you contribute to the site and the work you do, but even I raise an eyebrow at some of the things you write about. I suspect that means you've done a good job. :)

Of course not. Jason Rohrer is a well respected game designer who's made some excellent games in the past. I don't agree with everything Jason has to say, but the counterintuitive notion that game sales (could) create create unforeseen negative consequences is absolutely a conversation with having. If I wanted to publish articles just to generate comments, there are way easier ways to do that than spending an hour researching Jason's topic, two hours transcribing our interview, an hour writing our interview, half an hour edited the article design, and finally half an hour editing the podcast version of the interview. :)

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w1n5t0n

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@veektarius: I agree and thought you made a fair point.

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veektarius

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@w1n5t0n said:

@veektarius said:

@w1n5t0n said:

@patrickklepek said:

@alexandersheen said:

@veektarius said:

I do not feel his argument is strong enough to warrant press. Is any indy developer who wants to raise a petty grievance entitled to an article?

Only if that indy wants some free advertisement for his/her soon to be released game through articles like this one.

Hmm, I wonder if you guys can be more passive aggressive.

Hey mods you should delete, it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

I think this guy managed to be more passive aggressive than me.

I'm pretty good at it, but in all seriousness if it was anybody else there comment would probably be deleted because its just calling people passive aggressive and not adding to the discussion.

TBQH: I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive in the first place. If there's any meat to this guy's argument, it didn't come out in the article. So one of two things are true: 1) Rohrer's a blowhard who didn't deserve the press for coming up with a clickbait controversial opinion or 2) his opinion is actually worthwhile, but because he was not challenged in the interview (maybe he was in the audio, I dunno), people don't see that he can actually come up with convincing replies to the obvious problems with his pov that appear upon reading what he has to say, e.g. mistaking a correlation for both a) causation and b) a perfect relationship.

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Onomatopoeia

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Edited By Onomatopoeia

Shit, if you're a developer in the digital age you should be happy people are buying what you create. If people purchase your game on sale or pre-owned you should be pleased that they are pulling money out to invest their spare time in it. I'd argue games are too much right now, why would I pay £40/$60 for a game that has no replay value and only lasts 7 to 8 hours? If you want a larger fanbase make games that are worth what you ask for them. Stop being so entitled.

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Edited By rapid

I don't disagree with Jason Rohrer, but I will still buy a game on sale because there just isn't enough incentive to buy at launch these days.

  • Early rewards are gimmicky (Pre-order rewards, custom skin!)
  • Launch with bugs (Looking at you AAA games)
  • The community (/hype) is not there (Dark Souls, Spelunky) how many people are picking up Demon Souls now compared to at launch?

I can also see the reverse situation happening though, what if a game went on sale only during its launch (50% off)

At the launch the game it didn't seem interesting at all until months later Vinny, Jeff or Patrick plays it on a live stream gets people excited, but when someone finally wants to play the game but it's no longer on sale and is now twice as expensive. Pirate it?

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Edited By Phished0ne

I dont see the big deal here. When a game goes on sale people lower their quality standards(or venture out of their comfort zone) and buy a game they normally wouldn't, leading them to possibly giving up on said game sooner than they would if they payed full price(because they were more interested in the game). Rohrer makes it sound like he did some massive amount of research and the results proved that the lower price CAUSED people to play less. Insinuating that the consumers actively thought "well, i only got this game for 5 bucks on steam sale so..i dont need to keep playing it", when the thought was actually probably more like "well i took a chance on this cheap game i wasnt sure i would like...".

Some of the games on my list i have played the most i got on steam sale, Binding of Isaac, Spelunky, Super Street Fighter 4. Those are games i knew i wanted but at the time, couldn't afford to buy all of them so (at the time i still had a working console) I stuck to playing games on ps3. But as soon as those went on sale i bought them. In the other hand there are other games i got on sale that i didnt play as much for various reasons, like i wasnt as interested in them and took a gamble buying them at a cheaper price, or in the cases of Batman Arkham City, and GTA4, i bought them when i had already beat them on console. Just to have and possibly play again. There are a lot of different reasons people buy games, that sales open up for them.

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@maajin said:

I love sales and I got a lot of games that I absolutely loved on them.

On the other hand, rewarding early adopters making them pay less seems like a really cool idea.

This is my feeling on the matter. I think rewarding early adopters of a game is a good idea, but I also think he should allow sales later on down the line too. Plus, 16 dollars is a lot of money to ask from someone for an indie game, when the typical price is usually in the 5-10 dollar range.

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deactivated-589cf9e3c287e

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"I feel a little slimy dealing with it and thinking in these terms. I especially feel a little slimy about thinking about how we’ve 'trained' our customers. They’re just clapping their fins together and throwing money at us!"

Kay, I just won't buy any more video games. Have fun game industry!

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Edited By SpicyRichter

This guy needs to sit in on an undergrad level Economics class so he can understand some concepts like price and demand elasticity.

Each and every consumer has a 'strike point' depending on their perceived value of product and ability to pay. In order for a company to maximize revenue and profits, they'd ideally sell to every consumer at their 'strike point', especially with thinks like software where the marginal cost of an item is basically zero (ie. it basically costs nothing to sell one more copy, the raw materials price of producing an additional unit over and above your fixed costs)

This is what sales address: the full price of $60 address those with very low price sensitivity, and the sales address those with higher and higher price sensitivities, until we've sold to every potential customer at their strike price.

To put this into context, some games I have low sensitivity: I love bioshock so I buy it day one at $60 with the $20 season pass. Tomb raider? My strike price was $20. Other games I won't buy until they're far cheaper.

Every customer is different, and to maximize revenues you need to address each ones elasticity. Trying to fight this is futile, especially if your goal is to reach as many people as possible. Saying people didn't like your game because they didnt give it a chance is super pretentious - some people will just not like certain things, but at least they gave it a chance. Without that sale they probably wouldn't have at all.

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Edited By rm082e

@alexandersheen said:

@veektarius said:

I do not feel his argument is strong enough to warrant press. Is any indy developer who wants to raise a petty grievance entitled to an article?

Only if that indy wants some free advertisement for his/her soon to be released game through articles like this one.

Hmm, I wonder if you guys can be more passive aggressive.

I really like your work on Giant Bomb and appreciate your viewpoint, but stories like this one or the booth babes article you did a long while back genuinely make me ask a few questions:

1. Is Patrick only writing this article because he knows it will result in a ton of mixed/angry comments that will drive up page views, or does he have a genuine interest in the subject matter he is covering?

2. Is he purposely using the words of other people to convey an opinion he has without directly stating it himself so that he can hide behind a "journalist" badge rather than a "blogger" badge?

To be clear, I'm not accusing you of baiting, it's just that the subjects discussed in some of these articles feel like total bait material. I guess that's the point though right? You would rather talk about something that will inspire discussion (of all variety) rather than write top ten most wanted lists and other boring garbage? Makes sense.

My point is, I'm a member who really likes what you contribute to the site and the work you do, but even I raise an eyebrow at some of the things you write about. I suspect that means you've done a good job. :)

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Edited By w1n5t0n

@w1n5t0n said:

@patrickklepek said:

@alexandersheen said:

@veektarius said:

I do not feel his argument is strong enough to warrant press. Is any indy developer who wants to raise a petty grievance entitled to an article?

Only if that indy wants some free advertisement for his/her soon to be released game through articles like this one.

Hmm, I wonder if you guys can be more passive aggressive.

Hey mods you should delete, it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

I think this guy managed to be more passive aggressive than me.

I'm pretty good at it, but in all seriousness if it was anybody else there comment would probably be deleted because its just calling people passive aggressive and not adding to the discussion.

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davidwitten22

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@mumrik said:

Is Patrick just 75% of Giant Bomb for people who don't bite on the premium bait? I feel like GB does a lot of what they hate about the DLC culture in games these days...

Yeah, its just Patrick and quicklooks.

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@w1n5t0n said:

@patrickklepek said:

@alexandersheen said:

@veektarius said:

I do not feel his argument is strong enough to warrant press. Is any indy developer who wants to raise a petty grievance entitled to an article?

Only if that indy wants some free advertisement for his/her soon to be released game through articles like this one.

Hmm, I wonder if you guys can be more passive aggressive.

Hey mods you should delete, it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

I think this guy managed to be more passive aggressive than me.

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Valid point about why you put it down, but consider why you picked the game back up. I obviously can't answer that question for you, but it's clear that it's not just you and that Spelunky has had a huge recent resurgence. The game is two years old, a pretty long time in video game years, but it has repeatedly popped back into the zeitgeist. I'm sure its release on PS3/vita and the PC helped, but that was still about six months ago.

More recently, we've just come off of two Steam sales that had the game for half the regular price, and at times lowering it to about one fourth. And now it's back, and I'd say more popular than ever, and I think it's undeniable that the sales had a direct and positive effect on that.

People want to be early adopters so they can be part of the world's discovery and first interactions about a game. Later in the game's lifespan, interest has moved on to other things, players have moved on to other games, so a sale is the way to get those remaining players involved. There's no trickery or brainwashing. Just a great way for a game to stay relevant and profitable long after its release and to be exposed to as many people as possible.

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@somejerk said:

Still cannot believe the amount of people who say and believe in

" I'll wait until it appears on PS+/SteamSale/HumbleBundle "

Still cannot believe those people are intelligent enough to post on the internet either.

e: I am however not using adblock on certified safe sites with reliable ad providers. And yes I believe the people who sit and wait for sales are pretty fucking special. And yes I use anything, even clothes, in real life until it breaks, because I believe in getting the most out of something. And yes, I'm back to collecting arcade games, triple digits per game and enjoying every credit and then some. There is value in not waiting for a sale. There is value in not crying about spoilers due to waiting ten months before buying a game.

I find that weird. Sure most games I buy immediately if I have waited for them. But quite a few times there are games that I don't want to pay full price for, and thus I wait for them to go on sale or wait til the msrp has dropped.

There is also the fact, especially on Steam, that when there is a sale on a game it gets some publicity - maybe put on the front page etc. which brings in more people who may not have known of the game before that.

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w1n5t0n

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@alexandersheen said:

@veektarius said:

I do not feel his argument is strong enough to warrant press. Is any indy developer who wants to raise a petty grievance entitled to an article?

Only if that indy wants some free advertisement for his/her soon to be released game through articles like this one.

Hmm, I wonder if you guys can be more passive aggressive.

Hey mods you should delete, it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

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@trotoise said:

I'm a little bit confused by the turn from Rohrer's support of pay-what-you-want, saying "A lot of people really have to think very hard about what game they spend their money on," to his ultimate conclusion that "pricing the game higher really will help you have almost all the players who come in be willing to get to that point [of appreciating the game]." He seems to be saying that only people who can pay full price are good enough to play his game. If he's worried about people not investing time if they got the game for cheap and ultimately not enjoying the game, I think he should weigh that worry against the possibility of people who will not be able to afford the game at full price, but who would truly enjoy and appreciate it at a discounted price.

The economic reality is that not all goods are worth the same amount to all people, and I believe that the capability developers have with digital games to offer cheaper prices and draw in more players holds far more positive potential than negative.

Actually he's saying that only people who really wanted the game will bother paying the full price, and so will weed out all of the garbage posts in forums that have "THIS GAME IS CRAP", or something similar, for the headline when that person had only put 15 minutes into the game.

At the same time, GOOOO STEAM SALES!!!

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@veektarius said:

I do not feel his argument is strong enough to warrant press. Is any indy developer who wants to raise a petty grievance entitled to an article?

Only if that indy wants some free advertisement for his/her soon to be released game through articles like this one.

No.. but.. surely..this isn't.. no

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I'm a little bit confused by the turn from Rohrer's support of pay-what-you-want, saying "A lot of people really have to think very hard about what game they spend their money on," to his ultimate conclusion that "pricing the game higher really will help you have almost all the players who come in be willing to get to that point [of appreciating the game]." He seems to be saying that only people who can pay full price are good enough to play his game. If he's worried about people not investing time if they got the game for cheap and ultimately not enjoying the game, I think he should weigh that worry against the possibility of people who will not be able to afford the game at full price, but who would truly enjoy and appreciate it at a discounted price.

The economic reality is that not all goods are worth the same amount to all people, and I believe that the capability developers have with digital games to offer cheaper prices and draw in more players holds far more positive potential than negative.

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"There’s a rush among game developers," he told me. "All of my friends that I know that are multimillionaires, they made more than half of their money in these Steam sales. Over the past couple of years, I’ve just been hearing all these stories from people. 'Oh, yeah, the sales are where you’re going to make your money, man! I did a midweek madness, and that doubled my money right there!” [laughs] 'I was deal of the day a few weeks later--and again! I doubled!' And they just act like this is the way it is and this is amazing. If you stop and ask one of them, 'you realize that most of those people who bought it, when it was midweek madness or whatever, don’t actually play it?' And they just shrug. 'Who cares, as long as I get their money, right?'"

This entire section felt incredibly surreal when reading it, to the point that I'm actually doubting its veracity.