I started and stopped a second playthrough on xbox one and im glad I forgot about it. I really enjoyed the game outside of the ending plot twists

I think before that its actually a very mature game in the real sense of the word rather than the "video game" sense if you get my meaning. I thought it handled its themes rather well. and I actually ended up liking the gameplay

@blackheronblue: That guy said "nevermind, moving on" at least twice and you keep replying to get the last word in. pro tip: if you want the conversation to end, then stop replying. Also, you are the one who impulsively responded in the first place. When someone expresses their excitement for a game coming out, do you always directly reply just to tell them "ok but you shouldn't be excited, it sucks?" That's off putting. It's like YOU were the one who was original bothered by a difference of opinion.

Anyway, Catherine remains one of the most unique games to be released....ever, maybe? This new version has so much added and I'll definitely get it. I do hope P Studio makes another small game in between Persona games like they did with Catherine.

@frostyryan: They are making a fantasy game now, I'm pretty excited about it.

Oh awesome! This is one of those games from last gen that occasionally makes me wanna hook up my PS3 to get around to playing it.

Those competitive Catherine players must be something else if they were clamoring for harder Catherine settings. I had a hard enough time finishing the game on normal.

Well now I'm 100% on board.

That trailer reminded me how much I enjoyed the music in Catherine. Not sure if I will end up getting this remake, but I enjoyed the original quite a bit.

Not unlike Persona 5, I had a weird adjustment period with Catherine. It's like the pacing and flow of things made me uncertain of exactly what the game was asking me to do. Rather, how did it want to be recieved. It's difficult to explain. As an experience, I look back on Catherine fondly for how unique it seemed. Wouldn't mind trying out this new version.

Oh Atlus, buddy.

The end of that trailer is not something I trust you with even a little bit, especially with that framing.

Yeah I missed out on this game last gen, so playing it on the vita honestly sounds perfect. That trailer is crazy though

Time will tell if the backlash to the trailer is warranted. At the very least I would hope if (which we should) get English VO that if the Japanese translation is super trans-phobic, the american side realizes the error of that, and changes dialog as best they can. That might get some backlash from certain vocal minorities..but I sorta-kinda trust them to curtail the worst possible scenario.

That said? Doesn't Vincent make the exact same face in the original game in a very similar/identical place to a certainly not male/trans nude woman? Isn't that face also like..a trade-mark of the character? I would absolutely hold off my own personal opinion until I see where they are going with this. Like, the music in the trailer right after that big "OMG" moment makes me think "So, he's looking at feathers and not hair and the 'she's an angel' idea I heard floated on Reddit or somewhere might be right?"

Cause to me seeing downy fluffy feathers on a nude woman where there should be uh...anyhow..that face would make sense there too. And adding another super-natural entity too this game would make sense.

See? Its likely the thing everyone assumes it is (cause if I recall wasn't the play-button for that trailer on the website literally a symbol for transgender people?) but there is enough 'yah but it might be..." for me to go "I'll wait and see".

Still gonna buy/play the game, unless the reports come back that it is just absolutely awful in this respect and the worst possible scenario people could imagine it being. As it stands though, if instead we get a romantic option that is well done and happens to be with a transgender character..well this 'contrevesy' might look real silly when it turns out to be a forward-leaning game on the social side. That said uh..I played P5 so yah, I get the lack of willingness to give benefit of doubt for that at this time too.

I freaking loved Catherine. Evil Catherine for life. Can’t wait.

@bladededge: He makes the same Oh Shit faces to what hes done in the original but the original was never framed like this. There really isn't much room for doubt in what the trailer panic is meant to be.

And its hard for me to think the localization side will do much since there's still dodgy shit in latest releases and they already did bad with trans stuff in Catherine original so......

I am willing to wait and see but I've not a lot of optimism about this specifically.

@bladededge: I wouldn’t want them change the dialogue to make it more transgender friendly in the same way I wouldn’t want them to change it to be more trans-phobic. I want an accurate translation.

@efesell: I get that. I'm just not willing to go that pessimstic I guess, I offer no disagreement with where your coming from or why you feel that way for sure.

@liquidprince: Oh sure, I don't mean to say only 'bad' people might have a problem with them changing the translation. There is absolutely a solid basis for exactly what you state, a accurate translation. I do feel like you'd also get a lot of people who would only have a problem with the 'less trans phobic' change type, but don't mean to imply anyone who has a issue with it either way is in that camp.

That said, I'm in a agree to disagree with you on that. I'm not for wildly different translations or random cultural differences (Donuts instead of riceballs is dumb). I just happen to think hey, if Japanese culture is real trans-phobic, but the Atlus US people want to not be that way themselves, go for it. Yah, its not accurate translation but I feel strongly enough about the issue, if it ends up existing, to value "Reducing transphobic content>accurate translation."

Though again, that's just me, not a critique of the place you seem to be coming from.

Next Winter?

Also anything trans is a pretty tired trope/easy gag in Japan so don't hold your breath, it'll be just as bad, if not worse than how you think it'll turn out.

Wow lmao Atlus. I bet this is totally going to be 100% trans friendly and not at all explotative and gross.

Ugh I really wish a western team could try and do what Atlus does, because i'm super tired of putting up with this insulting garbage

@animasta: I’m gonna be honest here:

A. You’re already jumping to conclusions. We don’t even know if the reveal actually has to do with Rin being transgender. Even if she is, you have no actual context for the scene or how they’re going to handle that aspect of the game in general.

B. I don’t really care who you are, that’s probably the face you’re gonna make if you end up with unexpected junk in your face. Especially for a character who up until this point has been represented as nothing but straight. The fact that they are presumably adding multiple new endings where the player can choose to be with Rin, just as you could choose to be with Catherine or Katherine is already leagues farther then most games go.

@liquidprince: Atlus has a well storied history of being insulting and demeaning to any person who's LGBT. The only one they've done decently was Jun and that was like, barely there (and 18 years ago). So no, I don't have any context, but I highly doubt that they would choose now to be like, even slightly okay. Persona 5 literally had gay predators, dog.

Also, that shot is straight up some transphobic shit anyway. Like, unless she just has a black hole in her crotch, she has a dick, and that final shot was 'oh shit some dude got tricked into having sex with a MANNNN' level garbage.

edit; or she's not trans and they're purposefully using transphobia as a swerve, which is mad exploitative anyway.

But they made damn sure to indicate why he's freaking out now as opposed to the original where he's just understandably freaking out because he has woken up after a blackout with another girl.

Maybe I am jumping to conclusions a little but they've gone to great effort to lead me here and I've seen where this road has gone in the past with them, so what else am I supposed to think?

Awesome! Never had a PS3 so this will be my first time with Catherine, when it comes out in the far flung future.

About the trailer, I will freak out when I know for sure there is a good reason to freak out.

@liquidprince: lmao did you know that straight boys already date girls with penises? it's true.

but Atlus consistantly hits the low bar so I fully expect Vincent to out her, or try to explain that he's not gay, or even try and attack her. Because like with Erica, if she is trans then no doubt she's going to be in Block pushing land anyway

I am not ready to believe yet that Atlus, who depicted a trans character in the original game as someone looking to trick people into having sex with them, is re-releasing this game with another trans character this time looking to seduce Vincent. There has to be some other explanation with this new character. There just has to be. They have to have some awareness by now how bad they are with gender/orientation identity issues

Remember the bait and switch on Kanji being gay?

@htr10: dude they literally put gay preditors in P5. People that aren't cis and heterosexual don't exist in Japan unless they're in same-gendered high school lol

@animasta:

Sometimes depictions of certain groups are so terrible in video games that it makes me worried that people will know that I played that game and judge me for it. I can only imagine what it must feel like to be an individual who is anything other than cis and heterosexual and play these games.

@htr10: They can't just keep like... using all of the bad tropes and stereotypes of something and then right before committing to it try to say they actually meant to do something else all along.

If that's the case here it would be like... the third time or so?

Kanji is one of the most important characters I've ever experienced because he was uncertain about any of that stuff and it perfectly mirrored my own development when I played the game. And then his sexuality was ultimately deemed unimportant by the game, instead focusing on building him as a human being, and the fact people want to crucify Atlus for a character like Kanji because it wasn't the exact kind of representation they wanted is hypocritical at best.

It's cool that you want gay representation, I do too, but maybe think a little harder about what you're saying next time?

@teddie:

Can I just ask, what is up with saying something like “think a little harder about what you’re saying next time”?

What an obnoxious, childish thing to say. YOU think a little harder about what YOU are saying next time.

With Kanji they really wanted to do all of this imagery and suggestion and then ultimately back down and say "But uh don't worry if this makes you uncomfortable it can still work out however you want it!". Plus all the while peppering the whole arc with some good ol' gay panic.

So like.. it's great for people who still found a lot in the character but it's also good to recognize the parts they fucked up.

@htr10: My intention wasn't to turn around and make anyone else feel shitty for the same reason I felt shitty, so I honestly do apologize for being immature about it still. I am pretty prone to getting peeved when people decry Kanji since he's such an important influence on my life, as a queer person.

I do hope you can take something else away from my last post, but if not, I understand and it'll be a lesson for me next time I want to express something important to me.

@teddie:

That’s cool. Thank you for explaining. I apologize for snapping back at you.

I can see what you are saying about Kanji’s character development and how someone else saying that it was “wrong” when it spoke to you would be hard to take, especially when that other person, in this case me, is looking at it from a more superficial layer.

I think there is a lot of nuance with regards to the depiction of Shadow Kanji and Shadow Naoto in Persona 4. Considering the context of how the TV World works in the game, when they find out its full function after mistaken Namatame as the killer because his Shadow depicted his "supposed true self" being a merciless killer.

The truth is that the TV World is mirror to which collective unconcious of the people around Inaba projects their image of the people they see. It plays into the legend of Izanami as well, with regards to how Izanagi abandoned her because he saw her true self, and it was ugly. People don't want to be themselves and show it to others, because they are scared of being rejected. So they conjure up false images and Personas to protect themselves from harm. I don't think Kanji or Naoto are examples of transphobia, I think they shed a positive light on a very serious problem with regards to gender politics. In Kanji's case it was always about "what it means to be a man" and even says it himself "it ain't about guys or chicks". He wanted to live up to his father's place, because he isn't there to take care of his mom anymore, but Kanji's past is grounded in a textile shop that sells items of garments, stuff usually associated with women. His pleasures and hobbies are riddled in stuff that is presumped "not-manly". The stuff in the Persona games are particularly rooted in Japanese culture and politics, it doesn't go beyond Japan, not even in Catherine with regards to gender politics.

And that's part of the appeal, same with the Yakuza games, at least for me.

I can't really deny the whole thing regarding Erica and Tobey, nor the gay guys in Persona 5. But it does have Lala, the crossdressing hostess of the Okama club, who is a really cool character and not treated as a joke. In fact she was actually voted as one of the most popular characters in the game. Not that it balances out the gay guys, but it does give me hope that Atlus can definitely do better.

@thechris: the thing about Kanji is really that Yosuke got a free pass to be a shitty homophobe to him at the campout and not one apology happened. In fact, you had no opportunity to really dissuade Kanji's 'plan' at all. I mean honestly, if they didn't specifically harp on Kanji's crush on Naoto AFTER Shadow Kanji, he would've been a far far stronger character. Yes, Kanji had a big crush on Naoto, but after his shadow, why did it matter to anyone within the group? No one assumed Rise was some giant slut after Shadow Rise, and no one assumed that Naoto wanted to be a boy after her shadow... Though now that I think of it, it felt like most of the group was trying to enforce proper gender roles onto Naoto afterwards.

Also Lala was fine but it was still another stereotype, just one that wasn't played for laughs. If Lala is the best we can hope for, I don't have any hope in Atlus reliably writing a LGBT main character.

I wouldn't count her as a stereotype, there are plenty of crossdressers in Japan who are comfortable the way they are. It's also an Okama bar, which translates as "crossdresser". So contrary to what people might think, I don't think she should be seen as a "transgender" character, and I don't think she was meant to be.

Yosuke's harping on Kanji did get irritating, and I think he should have gotten some comeuppance for it, which of course he didn't. But there is a noteworthy line of dialogue exchange between him and Kanji in the game, where Kanji is feeling depressed about his feelings and Yosuke reassures him that he shouldn't worry too much "As you got us" he says. It's a line he says within one of the dungeons, if you talk to him.

I just think it's important to point out that the mystery issue of Kanji being gay or not was never really about him being gay. It's probably hard to articulate properly through the localization from the Japanese version. But I never saw it in that light and I don't think anyone were enforcing Naoto to be a woman. She comes to that conclusion on her own, becoming comfortable with herself and her age, she isn't being treated seriously by her peers because she's a child and also a woman in law enforcement--The problem itself is thus rooted closer in Japanese gender politics than it is in sexuality. The whole workings of the TV World in the game supports that theory, it's fine if people wanted it to go a different way. But it just didn't.