So looking around the internet it seems that everyone has come to this consensus that at some point after the events of DS1 a bunch of people left Lordran and emmigrated to the area that is now Drangleic. The only real in game information I've seen supporting this is the idea that the giants "came over the sea" to attack Vendrick's kingdom, and everyone seems to be assuming that the giants in DS2 are the same as the giants in DS1.

Now, I played through the game pre-release and the first time I entered Heide's Tower of Flame my first thought was "Oh shit, this is what's left of Anor Londo". This was only reinforced by the presence of Ornstein. That one area alone basically said to me that Drangleic is Lordran in the far future, after 99% of that kingdom has crumbled to ruin, and only bits and pieces of Anor Londo remain as recognizable landmarks. Nearly every NPC, when talked to enough, mentions something about how "numerous kingdoms have risen and fallen in this spot" or something to that effect, and are very ambiguous about the time before Drangleic.

Also, maybe not enough people have beaten the game or not, but the giants that attacked Drangleic are very clearly NOT the same giants from Anor Londo. Maybe you could argue that the giants changed in the centuries/millenia since DS1, but honestly if you look at the Giant Blacksmith and then at the Giant Lord, there are zero similarities other than the name and the fact that they're big.

So basically I just want to know if there's any reason that everyone has come to this apparent consensus that Drangleic =/= Lordran. I personally think it's way cooler to think that this is the same place much, much later, and all the evidence I've seen seems to support me, but I'm more interested in knowing the truth of the world then just what I want to think, and if there's any evidence that says that DS1 and 2 don't take place in the same physical place, I really want to find out about it.

@waffles13: Uh they came to that consensus because someone on the wiki said it and most dark souls "lore fans" don't think for themselves. Until a From Software writer outright says "this is not the same place as Lordran" then there is no concrete in game evidence that refutes that. Just bear in mind From contradicts their own lore constantly so they might officially back that theory just because it is popular to begin with. Ornstein in Anor Londo isn't an illusion, you can kill Gwyndolin, Ornstein and Smough are still there. Of course you could always argue that because he is called "old dragon slayer" it isn't Ornstein at all just some guy wearing his armor. That is the whole point of From's method of story telling though, you can't actually prove anything conclusively which allows them to just do whatever they want and let the fans invent their own explanations when the truth is there is no explanation.

If you really want to buckle down you can ask questions like "Why are their vases that look identical to the vases in Gwyndolin's room in the Lost Bastile?" "Why is there a broken pot that looks the same texture as the lord vessel in a basement in Majula?" Or any number of other things.

And the real reason is.... it was cheaper than making new textures. However some lore nut will invent something and everyone will just assume From is that smart. Don't get me wrong, I have loved From Software RPG's since From Software started making RPG's, but Dark Souls fans give them obscenely too much credit.

I believe some people think Drangleic is built upon Vinheim, as the Lingering Dragon Crest ring originates from Vinheim, and the description mentions something about Drangleic being built upon this land. Personally I believe that Drangleic is built upon a deformed land, that is perhaps both Lordran and Vinheim. I'd like to think it's been long enough for the land to change, and displace many of the cities that once existed.

While I think the game seems to indicate that Drangleic is pretty much in the same place as Lordran (I personally find this to be a very disappointing direction to take things, by the way), I don't think there are any direct correlations like you're finding between Heide's Tower/Anor Londo. For example, there are no separate stairs/elevators for Giants and Humans in Heide's Tower like there is in Anor Londo.

@karkarov: In DS1, I really didn't care at all about the lore. Even as someone who really cares about story in games, I found myself skipping dialogue and ignoring item descriptions. Part of that was that I'm not a real fantasy buff, but also I just didn't really find the world interesting in a historical sense. Going back and watching some of those Youtube lore recap videos, there certainly was some interesting connections and ideas there, but it's hard to tell how much of that was by design and how much is fans finding obscure clues and trying to make sense of it all.

I was fully prepared to do the same for DS2, but one of my favorite things across the board in games is when a developer comes up with a reason, contrived or not, to revisit a place you are super familiar with in a different context. It's a big part of why games like Dead Space 2, Halo 3 and MGS4 are some of my favorite games ever.

Regardless of whether From actually knows what they're doing with the lore, I doubt that they'd just throw an area in that looks exactly like one from the previous game with no story justification whatsoever, and I really doubt that justification is "Maybe a bunch of people from Anor Londo moved to Drangleic and rebuilt an identical city there".

As for Ornstein, I totally don't care about the whole "Was he or wasn't he an illusion in DS1" argument. It's a fantasy world, there are a million reasons he could show up in DS2 even if he was real in DS1. Maybe he went hollow and wandered around Anor Londo for eternity. Maybe he was reincarnated by someone trying to excavate Anor Londo. Maybe his armor was infected by the Abyss and became sentient on it's own. Maybe it's canon that the Chosen Undead killed Ornstein first, so Smough squished him and his soul fell out of time and reappeared a thousand years later.

I'm sure From's official stance on Ornstein in DS2 is "Man, that'd be cool", and you know what? It was pretty awesome. But in my mind the only reason they'd even consider having him in the game is if he was in Anor Londo. That's largely speculation, but just from a logical, game developer perspective it makes significantly less sense if this dude who looks like the guy from DS1 is coincidentally in a building that looks like that one from DS1 but it's not the same dude or that same building.

@waffles13: I'm with you. I got the impression that Drangleic was just one of the many kingdoms rebuilt on the same spot as Lordran because, you know, they constantly talk about many kingdoms being built on that spot. But, I haven't seen anything explicitly stating that, and Karkarov is right about things are kept loose.

@spoonman671: I'm having a real bitch of a time find direct, head on screenshots of the cathedral from Anor Londo vs. the Cathedral of Blue, but they are shockingly similar. Yes, there are differences, but that can be chalked up to the fact that that A) it's been hundreds or thousands of years and B) it's been three years since the last game, and they wanted to freshen it up. Not a great lore reason, I know, but it's a thing that happens. The control room in Halo 3 wasn't identical to the one in Halo 1.

Also, to be clear, I'm not trying to beat my chest and say "It's definitely the same place, dammit!" I just really want to know how like 80-90% of the posts I see talk about this presumed migration of Gwynevere and friends to Drangleic with seemingly no evidence to support it. Again, when I entered Heide's I had this immediate reaction and realization of where I (thought) I was, so either I'm totally nuts, I'm missing some big piece of counter evidence, or someone came up with this other theory and everyone just jumped on board for no reason.

@waffles13: Actually it was already revealed in the first game that all of the other gods besides Gwyn and Gwyndolin left Anor Londo BEFORE the events of Dark Souls 1. Also From said before the game was released that Dark Souls 2 takes place in another land, however, what they mean by that and whether we believe them or not is pretty questioinable, cause you know it's From. Also, about the illusion thing, i'm pretty sure that even if you kill Gwyndolin the Gwynevere illusion still exists until you attack it, so that doesn't say anything about the Ornstein and Smough thing.

Also, i'm going to point out that the 'gods' like Gwyn, Gwynevere, Gwyndolin, Flann, etc are NOT the same as giants. The blacksmith in Anor Londo was a giant, Gough was a giant, but the gods are different.

@shirogane: I was aware of the gods/giants distinction, I was specifically referring to Gough and the Blacksmith compared to the DS2 giants.

I did forget about the fact that they left in DS1, so that's a good thing to point out. I thought that someone was inferring that from some vague DS2 item description. Still, I find it a bit of a stretch to assume that those guys all left and basically rebuilt Anor Londo elsewhere.

@shirogane: I was aware of the gods/giants distinction, I was specifically referring to Gough and the Blacksmith compared to the DS2 giants.

I did forget about the fact that they left in DS1, so that's a good thing to point out. I thought that someone was inferring that from some vague DS2 item description. Still, I find it a bit of a stretch to assume that those guys all left and basically rebuilt Anor Londo elsewhere.

That's a great point about what From said, but like I pointed out, all that means is the game doesn't take place in Lordran it takes place in Drangleic. That doesn't mean they aren't the same geographical location, they are just not the same "land" which can mean anything from physical place to name of the ruling nation. It can't be the "Land of Lordran" if Lordran no longer exists, and it no longer does by the time of Dark Souls 2.

I don't get this whole "gods" nonsense. Gwynn was just a tall dude. He would be at like Vendrick's kneecap. Gwyndolin was barely taller than a male character, I bet Ornstein (pre transformation) was just as tall maybe slightly taller. The "gods" are not gods, they are just powerful soul users. The power of souls can corrupt or change you in numerous ways, odds are good they all started as simple cursed undead humans just like you. I also see no reason to believe Gough or the Blacksmith are the same type of Giant as in Dark Souls 2. They have little in common other than like Waffles said, being really big. Vendrick is really big too, but no one thinks he is a Giant.

I'd like to believe that Drangleic is Lordran, but there are too many geographic inconsistencies for me. Consider that Lordran was a kingdom built on top of an archtree in a very direct reference to Yggdrasil. Consider that in order to actually reach the bottom (or the land, as it were) you need to travel through the archtree hollow to hit Ash Lake. Drangleic has a coast, and it looks nothing like Ash Lake. There are also no signs at all of archtrees. I find that puzzling.

And yet there is the Ancient Dragon's memory, where you actually visit the corpse of an Everlasting Dragon that was felled during the war in the Age of Ancients. Archtrees, grey crags, smokey mist, all of it was bleak and grey. I bring this up because all of the memories we visit take place in the same space where the corpse fell. The exact same area. It's hard to reconcile that fact and explain Everlasting Dragon's final resting place.

Either the world has changed much since the first Age of Fire (pretty much confirmed to be Gwyn's kingdom), or it's a cool easter egg that isn't supposed to be looked into that deeply.

Also; we don't know what kind of face the Anor Londo giants had. The only giants we meet in Dark Souls 1 have masks. Neither Gough nor the Blacksmith show their faces. They could be puckered buttholes as well, is my point.

@karkarov:

I totally agree with you about the land part, it kinda is what i was trying to say. It could be the same place and yet a different 'land'.

As for the 'gods' thing. Yes they're basically larger humans, but they're not the same as humans. A lot of them speak about/to humans in a manner that basically tells us that they are not humans. Specificaly Ciaran is one that i remember, somelines involving 'you humans' and such, and out of all of the knights that we meet she's the most humansized one. Another thing to backup this notion that they're not normal humans is what their existence is based on. Gwyn is basically Zeus, no doubt about it. How he overthrew the dragons and how he uses lightning is pretty similar to Zeus.

As for the giants Gough and the Blacksmith. We never actually do see their faces, for all we know they do look like the giants in this game with a gaping hole as a face.

Just gonna leave this here: http://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls2/comments/20x5oj/lorespoilers_dark_souls_2_is_set_in_lordran_mega/

Counterpoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQTjvhZ18u8. I find the Heide's Tower=Flann's Tower compelling, and it explains Ornstein's presence, too. But it doesn't explain the myriad items from Dark Souls that made their way over to Drangleic, or the pieces of the Lordvessel in Majula's mansion basement.

Re: The arch trees and Ash Lake, Shrine of Amana looks a LOT like Ash Lake if you look around. Personally, I'm unsure whether Drangleic's built on top of what was once Lordran or not. There are many clues that point in that direction, like lots of NPC dialogue, and all the items you find, but yeah idk.

The thing is their dialog could simply be hubris. You probably didn't play Demon's Souls but that game went to great lengths to make it clear to you that almost every boss you fought (no matter how monstrous or huge they were) was in fact actually a human at first. The idea is that they became demons due to their massive soul power and transcended simple humanity. While Dark Souls never outright says it there is a strong implication the same thing happens here. Again just look at Gwynn and Vendrick. They are both quite clearly hollow when you fight them, that is to say they look like hollowed undead. Vendrick even has the same skin texture color you do when you are in hollow form. The Emerald Herald even plainly states Vendrick had the same curse you do, and some npcs after you defeat Nashandra actually refer to you as the new ruler. IE: The Cat in Majula. Your character is clearly not a god, however lots of you insinuate Vendrick is... but you are also obviously taking his place. You have his throne, probably his soul, the four lord souls he used, and the chance to light the first fire just like the "gods".

Just think about it.

@karkarov:

I personally don't believe that the Vendrick we fight is the real Vendrick, even by standards of the other characters we see, like Gwyn, Ornstein, Artorias, he's way too big. He's about the size of a Giant Lord. As for the dialog, it seems to be more than hubris, they seem mistrusting or curious about humans as a whole. They seem to treat the human race as a mystery that they know little about, which is very strange if they themselves are also humans. While these people are not actual gods, that's the only term we know them by, and we can't call them giants either since that's reserved for yet another race, however i do not believe that they are humans like the undead we play as or the other NPCs in the game that we meet. Aside from what i've mentioned before, the people of this race seem to live much longer than humans as a lot of them seemed to be thousands of years old or something. However, i don't believe that any of these exist anymore in the time of DS2, and therefore Vendrick is a normal human who either somehow enlarged himself or created a fake golem of himself.

All this said however, the descrepancies between sizes of characters has never been explained in Dark Souls at all and has always been something that was just really strange. Possible to just chalk it all down to something more gameplay or techinical related.

They mention that many civilizations rose and fell where Drangleic stands today. So I think it was kind of straightforward in telling the players that this isn't Lordran, but that history tends to repeat itself so the where and the when doesn't matter. Lordran probably existed at some point in that world but it's long gone replaced by countless other civilizations and Drangleic just happens to be the one were playing through now.

@humanity: The only problem with that is the simple reality that Lordran is talked about in vague terms by like 50% of the npc's in the game and tons of the items blatantly reference Lordran. I agree Lordran is long gone, but I don't think it was "many many cycles ago". It was either the Cycle just before this one, or maybe 2 cycles ago tops. Otherwise there wouldn't be legends and NPC's talking about Lordran they would be talking about some place else.

@karkarov: Obviously no one knows how much time really passed and it's in the best interest of the developers to never answer this question - but in my opinion I assume the close relation to Dark Souls 1 is because of the cyclic nature of time. That the same events keep repeating themselves throughout the ages with slightly different people and slightly different names. I mean thats what I got out of it after talking with Straid - this sense that nothing matters because many civilizations will come and go but the same thread will bind them together.

Oh, man, yeah. They kept talking about how much Vendrick and the Giants hated each other and stuff, and then I walked into the room with Vendrick pacing around and he's literally bigger than most of the Giants and it's like what the fuck is this shit? Had a good laugh about it.

As for the topic at hand, I think there are definitely similarities between Lordran and Drangleic, but I highly, highly doubt they're the exact same place. The whole system works on a cycle. Of course they develop and look like each other. This is medieval Mass Effect, people. Protheans and humans weren't all that alike, but you know, they aren't all that different, either, and not because they were on the exact same planet or whatever.

Though I will say that the people saying that Dark Souls was only one cycle ago are definitely wrong. Vendrick is proof of that, unless you're insinuating that Vendrick is the player character from Dark Souls. There had to at least be Vendrick's cycle in between. I assume that unless each land gets their own flame to maintain, which isn't impossible, then Vendrick (or whoever before him depending on how many cycles in between) went to go put down my Dark Souls character.

Yeah, I hate to be a cynic, but I think the ease of reusing textures and models has a lot to do with any similarities players are finding between this land and Lordran.

Though I am the only person to feel that way on this forum apparently that is exactly what I think. Vendrick IS the "Chosen Undead" from Dark Souls 1.

@karkarov: I don't think they can do that though without making a serious authorial decision there that blatantly makes no sense. What about female players from Dark Souls? What about players not named Vendrick? When did the Chosen Undead ever go overseas to fight Giants, or marry a queen, or become a king? The Chosen Undead (assuming the dark ending is non-canon) was guided along a path of kicking the shit out of Lordran until he had enough souls to take on Gwyn, who lit the flame prior, and lit the flame, unaware it would kill him/her. I'm sure he/she probably reincarnated again as a Hollow to pace around until Vendrick or somebody showed up to do the same to him/her, but there's just no way that Vendrick could also be the Dark Souls player character without some seriously stupid storytelling sorcery.

Female players of Dark Souls 1 invented the sex-change-coffin so that they could assume kingship. Or all female characters canonically chose the Dark Lord ending and became Nashandra.

But really, I'm with you. I don't think it is the player. The player could have been ruler during a cycle after Lordran and before Drangleic, but I don't think Vendrick's cycle directly followed Gwyn's.

I think Drangleic does take place in the same physical land as Lordran. NPCs even go out of their way to say that many kingdoms rose and fell in this very spot. Not just some ambiguous talk about a cycle repeating in different places. They specifically mention geographical location. And for people talking about how the geography doesn't match, let's not forget that in the beginning of the game you enter a demonic abyss whirlpool and somehow end up in the middle of a field. This continent is not normal. Maybe there was a time where you could just sail to Drangleic, but not anymore. It's been locked way from the world to where you have to enter some portal just to get to it. Or maybe Nashandra just used very flashy abyss magic to teleport you across the world. Who knows. And also this is a land where the ground can float in the air. Given the ambiguous amount of time that has passed, the land could have warped and shifted dramatically since Dark Souls 1. It doesn't have to follow real world rules of tectonic shifts over millions of years.
Or maybe it's a Bioshock Infinite situation of infinite dimensions doing slight variations of the same thing. There's always a chosen undead, there's always a bonfire, there's always a Blighttown.

Haha, very nice.

I wouldn't be super surprised if it was future-Lordran, but I guess I just assumed like a lot of people that it was future Vinheim instead. I always suspected some weird stuff was going down in Vinheim.

Also, sidenote, about that coffin. So I came back to kill the big monsters pretty early on and hopped into it fully expecting something awful to happen to me because, ya know, Dark Souls--and this was before I heard Vinny or anybody mention a coffin--and my guy went in as a male Undead and hopped out as a male human. Later, I heard everybody talking about a coffin that swaps gender, so I removed his armor and he was still a dude. Does the coffin only change gender if your character was already human or did mine just glitch or does it have a random element to it?

@whatisdelicious: You are just a very mannish looking woman.

Well...Dark Souls 2 basically says, hey you're male, deal with it. If you didnt' realise you start off as a male, and then when you get to the character creation change to whatever you want to be, so it's quite possible that they decided that the Dark Souls 1 character was male as well.

All this said however i still don't believe Vendrick is the DS1 protagonist. I'm pretty sure that the cycle has repeated at least a few times, more likely multiple times, otherwise how would anybody even know about the existence of such a cycle if it's only happened once? Also, the are Dark Souls 2 takes place in is basically a whole bunch of ruins of different kingdoms. Everytime one fell another would go on top, which is why you end up with so many different areas. The Bastille was probably not built by Vendrick and Drangleic, neither was Heide. I also believe the Iron Keep was possibly a castle of a kingdom from before Drangleic. There's also the Undead Purgatory and Huntsmans Copse area, an area made to hunt and capture the undead, just like the Bastille, also areas likely from a previous kingdom. What we're seeing isn't just the kingdom of Drangleic, but all the kingdoms before it that rose and fell, the cycles that happened before this one.

While we're talking about Dark Souls 1 stuff, anybody notice that the serpents aren't seen in this game at all? Totally don't exist. What happened to them? They were pretty major players in the events of the original and even everything before that.

Gwynevere also remains if you kill Gwyndolin, so... that's not really indicative of anything. His illusions remain even if he's dead. It only vanishes once the fake Gwynevere is killed.

True but illusion lady only takes 1 arrow, Ornstein and Smough are slightly more durable.

Counterpoint; all the enemies in Anor Londo are illusions but they take considerably more damage than Gwynevere. They also drop souls.

The whole game is an illusion.

Was poking around Aldia's Keep this morning. Got the ??Bone?? Shield from one of the mean dragon acolytes. I was already playing with the idea in my head. But could Aldia be the big dragon at the shrine? From the shield's description and the area it is obvious that he was using giant souls trying to recreate the ancient dragons. The text also says that no one knows how these experiments went as Aldia later on was not heard from. Even if it would take considerable amount of souls to create something as big as a dragon. Aldia seemed to have ample amount of donors, suggested by the big pile of giants' bodies near the end of the long hallway, above the acid pit. It would be weird if it wouldn't be him. If it was just a giant made into a dragon I think he\she would take some fiery revenge on Vendrick and his land. Though it is still weird that the only soul we get from that is a giant's soul, then again Ashen Mist Heart says it was created by the magic of the ancient dragon. In the end it might have been just Aldia emulating magic of old, the same way many sorceries\miracles\pyromancies\hexes are based on something from forgotten age.