Jeff's way off base about Double Dragon Neon

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#1 Posted by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

I wasn't sure where to put this, but Jeff is so offbase about Double Dragon Neon in he QuickLook, and I like that game so much, I felt the need to say something about it. (Formspring wouldn't help becuase it's not a question and it's too much to Twitter)

Jeff makes the comment in the Quicklook as well as in a previous Bombcast that the developers just pretty much made their own game and slapped Double Dragon on it. I know exactly what he's talking about because many games DO do that, and it's insulting to fans of the orginal games.

The thing is, though, Double Dragon Neon is just the OPPOSITE. That game is one of those games that comes around that exhibits nothing but the deepest of loves and slavish attention to detail to it's source material.

The disconnect, I think, has to do with the fact that I think Double Dragon Neon is cribbing from all things double dragon where Jeff is just wanting the arcade version fo Double Dragon 1.

A few quick points

-Jeff says the game plays nothing like Double Dragon. This completely ignores that fact that Double Dragon 1,2,3 and 4 play absolutely NOTHING like one another. Let alone their NES ports.

-Jeff says the game doesn't look like Double Dragon, when the figures look almost identical to the portraits from Double Dragon 2.

-Most of the environments from the game are straight up scene-for-scene lifts from previous Double Dragon games (save the brief jaunt to space, which nearlyt identical to the first stage in Battletoads and Double Dragon.) The City Streets, the Japanese Countryside, The Hellicopter, the giant war machine, etc. are all from previous Double Dragon Games. Even the scene where characters get sucked out into space when the doors open is almost identical to the scene in Double dragon 2 when characters get sucked out of the hellicopter doors.

-Even concepts like the Store, which, at first blush doesn't feel much like double dragon, is likely included because of the store mechanics in Double Dragon 3.

Yes, there's a great deal of added sillyness on top of that, but I think it has a lot to do with the focus of the game, seemingly, being on making a game that played more like what everyone THOUGHT Double Dragon was at the time moreso than trying to be true to what the developers thought they were makign when they made Double Dragon. (In the pre-anime days of the 80's, absolutely NOBODY thought that NES games were what we later found out they were supposed to be in things like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy VII, Castle Vania Symphony of the Night, etc.)

I only write this up becuase I liked Double Dragon Neon more than I've liked most games released this year at whatever the price point. I played through the game 3 times and will likely play through it several more times before I'm done. I find the combat system to be THAT MUCH fun. I think the people who are being dismissive of it are doing so because they don't get the basic play mechanic in that it's not a button mashing game, which is almost unheard of for a side scrolling beat-em-up. You can actually be GOOD at this game. It's so novel, it's hard to grasp.

Anyways, most of the time I agree with Jeff's take on things, but in this one he seemed to be saying some things that arent' necessarily accurate.

#2 Posted by mtcantor (951 posts) -

So, you really like Double Dragon huh?

#3 Edited by Asurastrike (2175 posts) -

I've heard from a couple other places that it's a good game, also. But it's all just opinions.

#4 Posted by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

@mtcantor said:

So, you really like Double Dragon huh?

I do. Ever since I first played it Mazzio's Pizza. It's the same thing Jeff was talking about in the QuickLook of having a ceratin amount of legitimate love for double dragon. There's something about those old games, that allowed you to bond with them in a way that many modern games simply won't let you do. I hear "double dragon" and I immeditely want my brother next to me plowing through waves of Williams'.

#5 Edited by Lukeweizer (2770 posts) -

I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.

#6 Posted by Soapy86 (2622 posts) -

Because that's totally what communism is about.

#7 Posted by TooWalrus (13257 posts) -

I don't particularly care for this kind of 2d side-scrolling beat-em-up, but the soundtrack is pretty great.

#8 Posted by huntad (1958 posts) -

I think the game is a ton of fun and it's hilarious! I'm gonna get it when I can, how much is it? Please tell me it's 10 or lower.

#9 Posted by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

@Lukeweizer said:

I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.

There's a difference between differing opinions and someone saying something that's just not accurate. If Jeff said "I don't like Double Dragon" it wouldn't be any different than any other game he doesn't like. The problem for me was when he began to talk about disliking the game because of how dissimilar he felt it was to what he considered to be "Double Dragon". When nearly every scene is taken out of a previous game... it's couldn't be MORE double dragon.

#10 Posted by Nottle (1915 posts) -

@JazGalaxy: I found it funny that Jeff says they are portraying the Lee Bros wrong, but don't the original games do a real poor job about giving the brothers any real distinctions? Like there are games where their names are switched or the wrong guy had the wrong color hair or they are wearing the wrong color of clothing.

#11 Posted by KoolAid (1034 posts) -

I felt frustrated when the bomb squad seemed to hate the Scott Pilgrim game, say what you want about that movie, I thought that game was super awesome!

@Lukeweizer said:

Yeah Jeff! Your opinion is wrong!

True, it is just his opinion. But as one of the biggest game critics of our time, it could be said he is a definate source on what is 'good' and what is 'bad'

Fortunately, Jeff is also one of the leading voices on what role a game critic should take and definitely understands the difference between opinion and objective quality. Which is why I love Giant Bomb, between the podcast, QL and reviews, it allows you many avenues to see if a game is good or not, from a few people's perspectives.

Online
#12 Posted by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

@Nottle said:

@JazGalaxy: I found it funny that Jeff says they are portraying the Lee Bros wrong, but don't the original games do a real poor job about giving the brothers any real distinctions? Like there are games where their names are switched or the wrong guy had the wrong color hair or they are wearing the wrong color of clothing.

Yeah, back in the day, there wasn't a whole lot o fattention payed to the "plot" of the game. In Double Dragon 1 on the NES, One of the brohters is the final boss of the game. In the sequel he's right there next to his brother fighting. Sometimes he's blonde, other times he's not. The only real through-line is that one of them wears red and the other one wears blue. I think the bizarrity of the plot and consistency in the story telling is what made them go so off-road with the plot of Double Dragon Neon. They just laid out all the games, even the ones where they inexplicably team up with the Battletoads, and said "what if we were suppposed to take all of this at face value as having happened..." and went with it.

#13 Posted by Metric_Outlaw (1173 posts) -

I think Jeff's nostalgia skewed his opinion of the game. I don't really care for side scrolling beat em ups but that game looks like it has a ton of charm and that the developers definitely tried to breathed some sort of life into a dead franchise. I think his opinions can be overly harsh but they are his opinions.

#14 Posted by JoeyRavn (4983 posts) -

@Lukeweizer said:

I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.

That's not really how Communism works.

Just felt like pointing that out.

I'll leave now.

I know the exit. Thanks.

#15 Posted by Dagbiker (6978 posts) -

Jeff said it was ok.

#16 Posted by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

@Metric_Outlaw said:

I think Jeff's nostalgia skewed his opinion of the game. I don't really care for side scrolling beat em ups but that game looks like it has a ton of charm and that the developers definitely tried to breathed some sort of life into a dead franchise. I think his opinions can be overly harsh but they are his opinions.

I think that's what most made me comment on the quicklook. The game is as far from a side scrolling beat-em-up as one can get while still being a side scrolling beat-em-up.

The developers said they looked to fighting games to develop the combat system, and I don't know how that plays into it, but it's defintely not a button masher. Whereas most side-scrolling-beat-em-ups have you walking from one side to another mashing the button repeatedly and burning through lives, Neon has a combat system that actually allows the player to play the game WELL. you can play through the entire game without getting hit. Whenever I take damage, With the evade button you can press to escape an oncoming attack, whenever you take damage, you know it's because of something you did wrong. A lot of care clearly went into making a smart, technical game, and it's frustrating when people dismiss it because they're expecting it to be a button mashing game where how well you do just depends on how many quarters you brought.

#17 Edited by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

@Lukeweizer said:

I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.

The education system has failed you. It's not your fault though

#18 Posted by Lukeweizer (2770 posts) -
@JoeyRavn

@Lukeweizer said:

I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.

That's not really how Communism works.

Just felt like pointing that out.

I'll leave now.

I know the exit. Thanks.

@TheHumanDove

@Lukeweizer said:

I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.

The education system as failed you. It's not your fault though

It's true, I'm not well versed in the topic of Politics or Governments. Should I have said Dictatorship?
#19 Posted by ajamafalous (12160 posts) -
@Lukeweizer said:
I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.
I don't even understand what you're trying to say. 
 
 
 
Anyway, DDN looks cool, and the soundtrack is fucking dope. I'd pick it up if I had a console hooked up.
#20 Edited by Azteck (7449 posts) -

@Lukeweizer said:

I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.

Would you be a dear and explain to me what, in your eyes, communism signifies? Because it sure doesn't sound like communism to me.

Edit: Accidentally a word

#21 Posted by jaycrockett (492 posts) -

I played the demo and thought it was terrible. Opinions vary.

#22 Posted by Crocio (542 posts) -

@TheHumanDove said:

@Lukeweizer said:

I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.

The education system has failed you. It's not your fault though

Point proven.

#23 Posted by fodigga (124 posts) -

Jeff is not the only person who dislikes the game, just look around and see that there are plenty of negative reviews out there. Just because you really have an attachment to this franchise and you really like this game for whatever reasons, it doesn't make Jeff wrong about what he said, and I'm not saying you're wrong either. Its just opinions.

From what I saw it seems to be a very generic brawler that doesn't interest me at all.

#24 Posted by AuthenticM (3805 posts) -

@Lukeweizer said:

It's true, I'm not well versed in the topic of Politics or Governments. Should I have said Dictatorship?

Yes you should have. Communism is an economic doctrine. Nothing more, nothing less. Fascism is a political doctrine in which the government tells the people what to do and what to think. See Hitler, Stalin and Pinochet. Fascists are usually dictators.

On topic, I have played the game, and I can say that I do not like it one bit. Movement and combat feel awkward and contrived. I have never played Double Dragon before.

#25 Posted by thedj93 (1237 posts) -

watching the quick look now it reminds me a lot of super double dragon i dunno it seems ok

#26 Posted by SlashDance (1843 posts) -

I have no idea how this game plays, and I don't really like the genre so I'm not gonna buy it and find out, but after watching the ending on youtube and having had the whole soundtrack in loop for most of the day, I have nothing but love for Double Dragon Neon.

#27 Posted by tallTuck94 (553 posts) -

@JazGalaxy said:

Jeff makes the comment in the Quicklook as well as in a previous Bombcast that the developers just pretty much made their own game and slapped Double Dragon on it. I know exactly what he's talking about because many games DO do that, and it's insulting to fans of the orginal games.

The thing is, though, Double Dragon Neon is just the OPPOSITE. That game is one of those games that comes around that exhibits nothing but the deepest of loves and slavish attention to detail to it's source material.

I don't think that Jeff and Ryan were suggesting that they did create their own game and shove the DD name on it, they were simply suggesting that it could have benefited from not being called DD and being something new and original.

#28 Edited by Aleryn (705 posts) -

While I didn't agree with the guys lukewarm take of Scott Pilgrimm, I totally agree with Jeff on this game just not being fun to play. The combat is wooden and the backgrounds are really unappealing in a way badly done sprite-to-polygon conversions often are. Which is a shame because I think the polygonal characters were done well! I'll add that I've only played the demo, it's possible the game opens up later on.

#29 Posted by AbeBroHamLincon (88 posts) -

Oh yea sticken it to jeff :-)

#30 Posted by SomeDeliCook (2341 posts) -

Double Dragon Neon might be an alright game, but it is a terrible Double Dragon game In my opinion. We probably also won't get anything Double Dragon related for years because of all the bad press and reviews this game is getting, and that pisses me off even more. It was a waste

I don't get why they don't just port the gameboy advance version and give it online multiplayer and a versus mode. There you go, perfect Double Dragon game. It doesn't need this retro 80's vibe, it needs good gameplay.

#31 Posted by Nottle (1915 posts) -

@JazGalaxy said:

@Nottle said:

@JazGalaxy: I found it funny that Jeff says they are portraying the Lee Bros wrong, but don't the original games do a real poor job about giving the brothers any real distinctions? Like there are games where their names are switched or the wrong guy had the wrong color hair or they are wearing the wrong color of clothing.

Yeah, back in the day, there wasn't a whole lot o fattention payed to the "plot" of the game. In Double Dragon 1 on the NES, One of the brohters is the final boss of the game. In the sequel he's right there next to his brother fighting. Sometimes he's blonde, other times he's not. The only real through-line is that one of them wears red and the other one wears blue. I think the bizarrity of the plot and consistency in the story telling is what made them go so off-road with the plot of Double Dragon Neon. They just laid out all the games, even the ones where they inexplicably team up with the Battletoads, and said "what if we were suppposed to take all of this at face value as having happened..." and went with it.

So why doesn't Jeff just have fun with it. I haven't played any of the games but from what it sounds like if the devs don't take the story and characters seriously why should he? Doesn't Marion die in 2?

#32 Posted by buft (3320 posts) -

True, the game is alot of fun, shame it had no online component but couch coop is really great

@KoolAid said:

I felt frustrated when the bomb squad seemed to hate the Scott Pilgrim game, say what you want about that movie, I thought that game was super awesome!

#33 Posted by mpgeist (643 posts) -

I've never played Double Dragon and I can't decide if this game is a good place to start. I would not get any of the references.

#34 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@Nottle said:

@JazGalaxy said:

@Nottle said:

@JazGalaxy: I found it funny that Jeff says they are portraying the Lee Bros wrong, but don't the original games do a real poor job about giving the brothers any real distinctions? Like there are games where their names are switched or the wrong guy had the wrong color hair or they are wearing the wrong color of clothing.

Yeah, back in the day, there wasn't a whole lot o fattention payed to the "plot" of the game. In Double Dragon 1 on the NES, One of the brohters is the final boss of the game. In the sequel he's right there next to his brother fighting. Sometimes he's blonde, other times he's not. The only real through-line is that one of them wears red and the other one wears blue. I think the bizarrity of the plot and consistency in the story telling is what made them go so off-road with the plot of Double Dragon Neon. They just laid out all the games, even the ones where they inexplicably team up with the Battletoads, and said "what if we were suppposed to take all of this at face value as having happened..." and went with it.

So why doesn't Jeff just have fun with it. I haven't played any of the games but from what it sounds like if the devs don't take the story and characters seriously why should he? Doesn't Marion die in 2?

No, she's in Double Dragon III, and gets possessed by an Egyptian goddess or something and is the final boss. She isn't killed, though.

#35 Posted by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

There aren't references so much as pure absurdity. The humor of the game really just kind of calls attention to how absurd the original games were. For instance, Williams, the enemy, cartwheels randomly. This was an attack he used in double dragon 2, so now they just included it with him yelling "GYMNASTICS!!" It's as though the original game was being treated like it was on mystery science theatre 2000. It's a stle of humor that only works, I think, because the original games had little to no coherent storyline at all.

#36 Posted by wjb (1697 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

Jeff said it was ok.

Yeah, it's weird how some people interpret opinions. Jeff and Ryan liked some things about it, disliked others. Pretty much what "ok" means.

Tide goes in, tide goes out. Life goes on.

#37 Edited by CornBREDX (6041 posts) -

I really liked Double Dragon also, in the day, and the arcade versions were the best imo (I played it at a round table pizza from time to time). 
 
I feel the new game just doesn't do anything for me from what I've seen of it. The combat is very slow paced and they didnt do much to make it interesting or modern imo. The oddity of them broing out and what not doesn't bother me and I enjoy the games goofy style, but the game play itself disinterests me. 
 
Just so you know, anime was around in the 80s. It also existed in the 70s =P

Online
#38 Posted by AlwaysBeClothing (1495 posts) -

From Jeff's previous talk I was expecting hot garbage, but from the quicklook the game seemed alright. Did some interesting stuff around the game, and the combat is basic beat em up status. Still, mix tapes, everything about the game so 80s yo.

#39 Posted by awesomeusername (4216 posts) -

@huntad: No one answered you. THE WHORES! It's $10.

#40 Posted by huntad (1958 posts) -

@awesomeusername: You answered me, COOL! For $10 i'm getting it for sure!

#41 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3116 posts) -

I grew up playing Double Dragon with my brother, with the two of us getting ever more pissed when Abobo would toss us out of the damn helicopter. Double Dragon Neon both plays better and is more consistent than any of the previous Double Dragon games were- they couldn't even keep who was alive, dead, good or evil straight in the old games. It was simultaneously post-apocalyptic and not, and never had a consistent villain. The shitty 90s cartoons did a better job of keeping their story straight, so the idea that this game is somehow unfaithful to the classic games is basically the dumbest shit imaginable. The original games weren't even faithful to the rest of the series. Every one might as well have been a totally disconnected adventure.

And this is coming from someone who loves and has the fondest of memories with Double Dragon. Granted, most of what I remember comes from the NES days, and I was young then; but this game is everything I remember liking about Double Dragon as a kid. You're jumping around kicking dudes in the head, throwing people, ladies with whips and questionable outfits are attacking you at every turn, and they sweetened the deal by including a damn nice feeling fighting system. The duck/dodge/gleam stuff is great at keeping things moving and rewarding aggressive play, and if you think the game plays too slowly, it's probably because you aren't making use of it.

#42 Posted by TeflonBilly (4713 posts) -

Jaz has a great point. It's not so much abut Jeff not liking the game. It's that Jeff seems to not like the game due to sheer WRONG information.

The reverence (Though often irrevenerently) to the old games is all over the game. WayForward GETS it. Hell even by the end of the QL Jeff seemed to begrudgingly enjoy himself. I hope Ryan does give it another look as he said. I think he'd enjoy the craziness it serves.

#43 Posted by Humanity (10109 posts) -

I just took issue with them making it out to be this piece of shit and in the QL it just looked like your average arcade side scrolling beat 'em up. Looks like Double Dragon. Dunno why they always talked about it like it was some atrocious pile of garbage.

#44 Posted by Jaytow (707 posts) -

So you've just been called a communist for respectful disagreeing with jeff, huh?

#45 Posted by Oni (2112 posts) -

@ajamafalous said:

@Lukeweizer said:
I just realized that if a video game website forum user were to be President of the USA, it would be turned into a Communist country, because they wouldn't be able to handle all the different opinions from their own.
I don't even understand what you're trying to say.



Anyway, DDN looks cool, and the soundtrack is fucking dope. I'd pick it up if I had a console hooked up.

Shit, I had no idea virt did the soundtrack. Makes me want to download that, at least. Guy's an awesome composer/arranger, he's done a ton of awesome videogame covers. Also the OST for Red Faction Guerilla and parts of the upcoming Retro City Rampage.

#46 Posted by CptBedlam (4458 posts) -

It's widely known that Jeff's taste is very weird and that just because he doesn't like something (which happens fairly often) it doesn't mean it's not good.

#47 Posted by JasonR86 (9728 posts) -

A person's opinion can't be right or wrong. It simply is.

#48 Edited by EvilNiGHTS (1093 posts) -

I think the problem is it's very difficult to read reviews on this particular genre without someone saying something that contradicts what they said earlier. Everyone likes Castle Crashers for instance, but aside from the art style I don't see how it's really much different to any of its recent peers or how Neon and Scott Pilgrim are any worse in comparison. People usually agree that the genre simply doesn't hold up very well, which then makes me wonder why every new release is pitched with a nostalgia angle.

It confuses the hell out of me.

#49 Posted by harinosho (604 posts) -

the game is cool, fighting could be better, but i like it..

Would not mind online co-op.

#50 Posted by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

A person's opinion can't be right or wrong. It simply is.

I disagree. There are valid opinions and invalid opinions.

Jeff likes Gears of War, he says.

If I say I don't like mustard because I don't like tomatos, that's an invalid opinion. It's FINE if I don't like mustard, but if my opinion is based on the idea that somehow believing that mustard comes from tomatos, my opinion is invalid because I just don't know what I'm talking about.

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