Maybe Epic is just as fed up with PvP as i am.

#1 Posted by phrali (646 posts) -

from what we can tell from the trailer, this looks like some kind of "Horde Mode - The Game". it doesn't seem like there will be any PvP. i could be wrong about that, but i am going to assume that's the case for the sake of argument.

it seems like in general, PvP games are attracting a fanbase of sore losers, constant complaining, bitching, moaning, etc, on every platform, in every game.

let's take Gears as a relevant example. i'm not so interested in PvP in Gears 3, but in my opinion, i don't see what else Epic could possibly have done to improve upon the Gears formula than what is in Gears 3. seriously, it is GOOD. but visit the official gears forum or any other forum, and you will find endless bitching and moaning. "i hate the sawed off" "i hate the rifles and noobs that use rifles" "i hate everything but the gnasher" "i hate the shotguns" etc etc etc. gears 3 has a LOT going for it, but epic doesn't seem to be getting much credit from the PvP gears community. it's just endless bitching.

i don't understand what epic is supposed to do to satisfy these people. they tried making the "alpha" playlist to satisfy them, and guess what? like 200 people played it. they put in dedicated servers, and all they hear is "i hate the sawed off." they nerf the sawed off and all they hear is "i hate the retro lancer".

it's not just gears. MW3 is endless bitching about "i hate the shotguns" "i hate the campers" "i hate assassin pro" "lag compensation" blah blah blah. BF3 is all "i hate the bush monsters" "hit detection is horrible" "omg shopper whores". etc etc etc

and it's not just console shooters. http://www.giantbomb.com/dota-2/61-32887/wow-people-can-be-aholes/35-528888/#73 it's like every PvP game available now is populated by people whining and bitching and crying.

and POOR SPORTS. when someone gets killed in a shooter, it's never because he was aiming bad or made a stupid mistake or exposed himself. and it's never because the other guy was just better or aimed better or had better tactics. it's because the developers gave the other guy an OP weapon or because the maps suck or because the devs screwed up matchmaking and put noobs on my team or whatever.

HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO SATISFY THESE PEOPLE?

i don't think it's a coincidence that epic's next IP would seem to be coop-focused and not PvP. horde mode has been a huge success. thousands of people every night in public matches, and who knows how many more in private matches. and thousands of people in coop campaign. and compared to the PvP crowd, they seem to be actually enjoying themselves and not bitching and moaning and blowing up the forums with "i hate this" "i hate that" "nerf this nerf that" "GNASHER ONLY PLZ" "i am entitled to this and that".

i'm sure epic knows that this IP will never make as much money as another macho PvP shooter. but at some point don't you think they get sick of the endless complaining and negativity associated with that type of game? they are human beings too.

i wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that people at epic, after watching the gears PvP community reacting to Gears 3, said "you know what, fuck these people. let's make a game for the horde fans and coop fans that seem to appreciate our hard work".

anyways, as someone whose friends list is almost entirely populated by people i met in rainbow six vegas terrorist hunts and left 4 dead and horde mode, i'm looking forward to getting more information about this game.

#2 Posted by Icil (727 posts) -

I really doubt that forum whiners is why Epic chose to forgo competitive multiplayer in their new game. Competitions always have their winners and losers (and whiners). Meanwhile MW3 tops the XBox Live charts all day every day. The whining probably seems louder because there's more voices bitching whereas the people who actually enjoy MW3 are just playing MW3.

I think Epic just wants to try something new. Part of making a successful competitive game is spending dev time on balance. I'm sure that after 3 games and months of balancing and tweaking and betas they'd rather just take another route and make something more fresh. GW3's multiplayer probably took at least 50% of the dev cycle to make (as well as post-launch work creating patches, etc).

#3 Posted by JordanK85 (140 posts) -

I agree with you in general about people complaining in PvP (I don't agree with Epic really caring about the complaints so much that it's shaping their business decisions, money is money after all) but I just want to say that horde mode isn't all sunshine and rainbows. People complain and rage quit if they don't get the map they want and if they don't get revived after running right into the middle of 3 boomers, 2 grinders and a brumak. If I happen to have left voice chat on (by accident of course) these people almost always say something like "omg, you guys suck!" Just like in your PvP example, they assume that they're better than everyone rather than accepting that they're just not that good. Rage quitting in horde mode is also magnified greatly by the fact that one person out of five acts as the host and the host migration is terrible so many times one person rage quitting is the end of the game and the enemies don't scale to the number of people still playing so the game becomes much harder much faster. That being said I greatly enjoy horde mode and Epic could probably fix the issues that I mentioned. I'm sure someone will suggest that I should only play with friends and that will fix my issues as well but it's just not possible to get friends together every time I want to play horde mode. Hopefully Epic will take a look at the issues in horde mode and use that to inform the design of this new game so that it won't suffer from the same issues.

#4 Posted by Deranged (1837 posts) -

If Epic really cared that much about people bitching on forums, then the Gears franchise wouldn't have gone farther than the piece of shit that was Gears 2.

Honestly, people will always bitch and complain, be it single player or multiplayer games. Skyrim get's criticized, as did Skyward Sword, Arkham City, the list goes on and on. The choice of a new IP's genre has little to do with anything involving pissed off and arrogant fanboys, but more along the line of a developer simply interested in trying something completely new and different. We have yet to see what Epic does with Fortnite but personally I don't remember the last time developer put so much dedication in their game as much as Epic did with Gears 3.

#5 Posted by tunaburn (1891 posts) -

they already have a game with horde mode only online. bulletstorm. it sold poorly. only a small % of people would buy a game thats only co-op compared to PVP. the only problem in gears of war 3 is the sawed off. you say they nerfed it but its barely noticeable. they say they put it in for beginners to have a chance. but when youre level 85 and using it its bullshit. thats what their core player is complaining about. If that many people are complaining about something maybe they have a point.

#6 Edited by AhmadMetallic (18954 posts) -
@phrali:  
 About your whole "bitching and whining" point, you should be aware that bitching =! dissatisfaction. I complain about various aspects of Battlefield 3 all the time, however it's #2 on my top 10 list and IMO the best multiplayer shooter on the market. 
 
Those who go on the official forums of a given game are the people who REALLY love that game/franchise, have crazy experience in it, hundreds of hours clocked, and they totally appreciate the great innovation and polish that EPIC or DICE etc.. put into their games, they realize it's all truly commendable, but they feel they should focus on why the game is not perfect. Since they feel it has the potential. That's how much they love it!
#7 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -

Competition will always bring up the worst side of people. But PvP sells. And Money and Whiners are better than a small and friendly community who doesn't bring money at all... It would be dumb to abandon PvP because people bitch about it. 
Also, "gamers" tend to bitch a lot about everything. 
 
@tunaburn said:

they already have a game with horde mode only online. bulletstorm. it sold poorly. only a small % of people would buy a game thats only co-op compared to PVP. the only problem in gears of war 3 is the sawed off. you say they nerfed it but its barely noticeable. they say they put it in for beginners to have a chance. but when youre level 85 and using it its bullshit. thats what their core player is complaining about. If that many people are complaining about something maybe they have a point.

That fucking defeats the whole purpose of balance!  You're sure they said that?
#8 Posted by phrali (646 posts) -

holy crap can we please not argue about the sawed off PLEASE

#9 Posted by BraveToaster (12588 posts) -

I don't think that's why Epic made Fortnight. I think they wanted to try something a little different for a change. In some cases, it's good for devs to branch out into and attempt to bring something fresh.

#10 Posted by Deranged (1837 posts) -

@phrali said:

holy crap can we please not argue about the sawed off PLEASE

I've been a die-hard fan of Gears since day one. I played Gears 1 religiously until Gears 3 came out and yes, I'm a gnasher enthusiast but I personally have no problem of handling sawed-off users. They all have the same play style and simple, predictable tactics.

#11 Posted by CaptainCody (1508 posts) -

I like the general idea of devs forgoing pvp because of retarded shit. Yet, in the end, their really isn't much you can do about people getting mad over it. PvP sells so the most you can hope for is shooters to come with stress dolls.

#12 Edited by tunaburn (1891 posts) -

@MikeGosot:

Ron Ferguson stated in his Gears of War 3 Q&A that the Sawed Off Shotgun was for new players, or players who aren't good using the Gnasher.

"I’m not a very good Gnasher player, the shotgun. I’ve always struggled a little bit, going online and just getting owned with wall-bouncing, shotgunning and that kind of thing. We really created the Sawed Off Shotgun to help with that. We wanted to create a weapon that was sort of new player friendly that gave them that experience of the up-close gib-fest, but take away some of the requirements of high accuracy for moving targets."

#13 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -
@tunaburn said:

@MikeGosot:

Ron Ferguson stated in his Gears of War 3 Q&A that the Sawed Off Shotgun was for new players, or players who aren't good using the Gnasher.

"I’m not a very good Gnasher player, the shotgun. I’ve always struggled a little bit, going online and just getting owned with wall-bouncing, shotgunning and that kind of thing. We really created the Sawed Off Shotgun to help with that. We wanted to create a weapon that was sort of new player friendly that gave them that experience of the up-close gib-fest, but take away some of the requirements of high accuracy for moving targets."

Wattafuck? That makes no sense! Why don't you give players a machine gun that shoots guided missiles? You would give them the experience of winning, but take away the requirement of practice.
#14 Posted by laserbolts (5331 posts) -

The sawed off is a pretty dumb weapon which requires zero skill to use but I think the worst thing in gears right now is the hammerburst. More and more people are realizing how ridiculously unbalanced the hammerburst is and you see so many people using it. As for the OP the notion that epic is making their games based on people bitching on forums is ridiculous. They will make whatever will make some money.

#15 Posted by tunaburn (1891 posts) -

@MikeGosot: thats what i said too man... its stupid.

@laserbolts: another problem with the hammerburst is the number of people with modded controllers making the hammerburst shoot almost as fast as the lancer.....

and to be on topic. i dont think epic gives a shit about the complaints. they dont fix anything or even try to balance shit. its about money. i dont think they want to release a game that will compete with gears so they release this co-op game instead.

#16 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -
@tunaburn said:

@MikeGosot: thats what i said too man... its stupid.

@laserbolts: another problem with the hammerburst is the number of people with modded controllers making the hammerburst shoot almost as fast as the lancer.....

and to be on topic. i dont think epic gives a shit about the complaints. they dont fix anything or even try to balance shit. its about money. i dont think they want to release a game that will compete with gears so they release this co-op game instead.

Well, these people are assholes. And that's a problem hard to fix. But, yeah, i thik Epic just cares about money. I don't doubt that we will get a Gears Of War 4 or something.
#17 Posted by Ubersmake (754 posts) -

I never played Gears PvP, because it never really appealed to me. I always felt that there was too much lag between what-I-want-to-do and doing-what-I-want-to-do.

But I loved playing Horde mode from Gears 3 with friends. And if Epic can pull that off at a good price point in a standalone product, then I'll be throwing money at them. And so will my friends.

#18 Posted by gateht (95 posts) -

@phrali said:

from what we can tell from the trailer, this looks like some kind of "Horde Mode - The Game". it doesn't seem like there will be any PvP. i could be wrong about that, but i am going to assume that's the case for the sake of argument.

it seems like in general, PvP games are attracting a fanbase of sore losers, constant complaining, bitching, moaning, etc, on every platform, in every game.

let's take Gears as a relevant example. i'm not so interested in PvP in Gears 3, but in my opinion, i don't see what else Epic could possibly have done to improve upon the Gears formula than what is in Gears 3. seriously, it is GOOD. but visit the official gears forum or any other forum, and you will find endless bitching and moaning. "i hate the sawed off" "i hate the rifles and noobs that use rifles" "i hate everything but the gnasher" "i hate the shotguns" etc etc etc. gears 3 has a LOT going for it, but epic doesn't seem to be getting much credit from the PvP gears community. it's just endless bitching.

i don't understand what epic is supposed to do to satisfy these people. they tried making the "alpha" playlist to satisfy them, and guess what? like 200 people played it. they put in dedicated servers, and all they hear is "i hate the sawed off." they nerf the sawed off and all they hear is "i hate the retro lancer".

it's not just gears. MW3 is endless bitching about "i hate the shotguns" "i hate the campers" "i hate assassin pro" "lag compensation" blah blah blah. BF3 is all "i hate the bush monsters" "hit detection is horrible" "omg shopper whores". etc etc etc

and it's not just console shooters. http://www.giantbomb.com/dota-2/61-32887/wow-people-can-be-aholes/35-528888/#73 it's like every PvP game available now is populated by people whining and bitching and crying.

and POOR SPORTS. when someone gets killed in a shooter, it's never because he was aiming bad or made a stupid mistake or exposed himself. and it's never because the other guy was just better or aimed better or had better tactics. it's because the developers gave the other guy an OP weapon or because the maps suck or because the devs screwed up matchmaking and put noobs on my team or whatever.

HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO SATISFY THESE PEOPLE?

i don't think it's a coincidence that epic's next IP would seem to be coop-focused and not PvP. horde mode has been a huge success. thousands of people every night in public matches, and who knows how many more in private matches. and thousands of people in coop campaign. and compared to the PvP crowd, they seem to be actually enjoying themselves and not bitching and moaning and blowing up the forums with "i hate this" "i hate that" "nerf this nerf that" "GNASHER ONLY PLZ" "i am entitled to this and that".

i'm sure epic knows that this IP will never make as much money as another macho PvP shooter. but at some point don't you think they get sick of the endless complaining and negativity associated with that type of game? they are human beings too.

i wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that people at epic, after watching the gears PvP community reacting to Gears 3, said "you know what, fuck these people. let's make a game for the horde fans and coop fans that seem to appreciate our hard work".

anyways, as someone whose friends list is almost entirely populated by people i met in rainbow six vegas terrorist hunts and left 4 dead and horde mode, i'm looking forward to getting more information about this game.

/whine over? Dude, this is a forum about Epic's new game, if you want to rant about PvP on Gears 3 go to that thread!

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