Then what about the Instant Kills that can be performed in the Guilty Gear series, or the Fatal K.O.'s in the Fist of the North Star fighting game. Both require certain conditions met, yet if the attacks connect, your toast even if you had a full health gauge. A Critical Finish is just another variant on that.
" Then what about the Instant Kills that can be performed in the Guilty Gear series, or the Fatal K.O.'s in the Fist of the North Star fighting game. Both require certain conditions met, yet if the attacks connect, your toast even if you had a full health gauge. A Critical Finish is just another variant on that. Step 1: Soul Crush. Step 2: Input Critical Finish command. Step 3: Win. "
Well, a Fatality is just a Finishing Move, right? Since it's specifically named in the games (at least I'm assuming, based on the main image), it's a legitimate concept.
" Well, a Fatality is just a Finishing Move, right? Since it's specifically named in the games (at least I'm assuming, based on the main image), it's a legitimate concept. "
But a Critical Finish is a finishing move that can be performed regardless of how much health a character has remaining, just like Instant Kills. Mortal Kombat Fatalities can only be performed at the end of the round after the loser has already lost all of his health.
I'd argue that Fatalities are related to (and perhaps even a subset of) finishing moves, but are notable enough for their own page. Not that that has anything to do with Critical Finishes, of course.
It's a unique, specific type of finishing move. I don't see the problem with it being a concept. We have plenty of concepts that are unique to particular games and/or franchises.
" It's a unique, specific type of finishing move. I don't see the problem with it being a concept. We have plenty of concepts that are unique to particular games and/or franchises. "
I think a line needs to be drawn with how specific we can get.
" It's a unique, specific type of finishing move. I don't see the problem with it being a concept. We have plenty of concepts that are unique to particular games and/or franchises. "
I agree. I think it should stay since it is unique to the Soul calibur series.
Because otherwise it's possible to have countless concepts that are all essentially the same thing, when one concept with a host of aliases would do just as well.
@Hailinel: Concepts don't have to have rules as strict as game pages. The concept pages are more the "miscellaneous" portion of the site; just about anything goes. I don't see why it's a big deal, even if there are numerous concepts describing a similar action, as long as each one is in a different game and is specifically named.
" @Hailinel: Concepts don't have to have rules as strict as game pages. The concept pages are more the "miscellaneous" portion of the site; just about anything goes. I don't see why it's a big deal, even if there are numerous concepts describing a similar action, as long as each one is in a different game and is specifically named. "
So if I make a game where a character has Super Strength, but is constantly referred to in the game as Beefy Muscle, Beefy Muscle would get its own concept page despite the fact that it is obviously just Super Strength with a cute name?
" @Hailinel: Concepts don't have to have rules as strict as game pages. The concept pages are more the "miscellaneous" portion of the site; just about anything goes. I don't see why it's a big deal, even if there are numerous concepts describing a similar action, as long as each one is in a different game and is specifically named. "
So if I make a game where a character has Super Strength, but is constantly referred to in the game as Beefy Muscle, Beefy Muscle would get its own concept page despite the fact that it is obviously just Super Strength with a cute name? "
Well for this. The instant death part can only happen if certain items are met. He has to be in soul crush mode.
" @Hailinel: Concepts don't have to have rules as strict as game pages. The concept pages are more the "miscellaneous" portion of the site; just about anything goes. I don't see why it's a big deal, even if there are numerous concepts describing a similar action, as long as each one is in a different game and is specifically named. "
So if I make a game where a character has Super Strength, but is constantly referred to in the game as Beefy Muscle, Beefy Muscle would get its own concept page despite the fact that it is obviously just Super Strength with a cute name? "
Well for this. The instant death part can only happen if certain items are met. He has to be in soul crush mode. "
And to perform an Instant Kill in Guilty Gear, you need to press all four attack buttons to enter the state that allows you to perform the attack. Either way, one character or another is in a specific state, whether that's performing a set-up input, getting dazed, having a specific gauge filled, or what have you.
Because otherwise it's possible to have countless concepts that are all essentially the same thing, when one concept with a host of aliases would do just as well. "
And because concepts that apply to a single game are pretty lame and pointless.
@Marino: Can't it just be explained in the main page?.....you even said yourself that you don't want to have to go through multiple pages to find information about a single game.
" @Marino: Can't it just be explained in the main page?.....you even said yourself that you don't want to have to go through multiple pages to find information about a single game. "
While I understand what Hailinel and Unknown_Pleasures are saying, I have to ultimately agree with Marino's 'slippery slope' assessment. The problem is, when you say 'this can not be allowed because it is too similar' or because 'it is only a more specific version of concept X' you are introducing an element of subjectiveness into the mix.
While from a personal perspective, I find Critical Finish to be an unnecessary page in its current form, there may be elements about critical finishes that make them somewhat unique (I do not know because I have not played Soul Calibur IV). In addition, while the page doesn't have much info on it now, if someone wants to one day look up descriptions of each character's critical finish or similar Soul Calibur-specific information, such specific information would likely not be found on the extremely wide-ranging Instant Kill page. The argument that something should not be a concept because it is specific to only one game is also void both because it is subjective in nature (ex: "well I think a concept needs to be found in at least five games to be considered legitimate" " Bayonetta isn't a real character because she's only in 1 game") and because it may be included in future games (ex: if only one game in existence had a First-Person Perspective it would still be a concept. The fact that this happens to be a more specific version of an existing concept does not impact he argument of how many games its in).
In addition, I would like to once again state that saying this is getting too specific is being overly subjective from a neutral standpoint. While for some 'concepts' a clear line can be drawn (ex: a concept like 'Games I Can Put Stickers On" is void because it is referring to affecting the physical copy of the game and not the content within the game) there is no clear line that can be drawn for how 'specific' or 'general' something must be (the only exception seems to be overly general concepts that are found in virtually all games, such as "Games That Do Something When Players Press Buttons"). If you start saying things like a Critical Finish (a concept which i imagine has a noticeable impact upon the gameplay of Soul Calibur IV) is only a more specific Instant Kill (a page which applies to instant kills in all genres of games and not just fighting games even), than you cannot (legitimately) criticize a person for thinking that Revive is the same thing as Extra Life (hey just because I don't have a set amount of revives to begin with and that I may need to rely upon another person for it doesn't mean I'm not getting another life, it's just a more specific and more conditional extra life), that Currency is just another form of Collectibles (hey, just because it has the specific use of buying stuff, it's still just another thing to 'collect'), that an Unbeatable Boss is just a more specific form of an Unbeatable Enemy (just because one is a ton stronger, causes a music change, probably only appears once, and may significantly impact the plot doesn't change the fact that it's just another type of 'enemy'. Actually, Bosses in general are just enemies so boss-related pages should be deleted and the information should be distributed amongst the various enemy pages) or that 'square' is nothing more than a fancy label for 'rectangles' that just happen to have even sides. Obviously, these are all more extreme cases, but they operate under the same logic of 'item X is just a more specific form of item Y'.
Basically, unless someone can draw a very clear line between what is considered 'too specific' and 'general enough' or can find a different (valid) reason for deletion, I do not believe this page can be legitimately deleted due to being in a low amount of games and for being specific.
" The problem is, when you say 'this can not be allowed because it is too similar' or because 'it is only a more specific version of concept X' you are introducing an element of subjectiveness into the mix. "
I don't believe being a more specific version is very subjective. Regardless, more specific versions are allowed anyway.
Deciding which concepts should and shouldn't exist always requires a subjective assessment. We can't avoid that. It's subjectivity in the pages themselves that we try to avoid.
@LordAndrew: While the rules/guidelines do require that a new concept be 'important', which requires an element of subjectivity, in order to avoid the creation of pages that are essentially useless (ex: NES Games with Pixels), that only applies for when a page is being created (which it has been, therefore it has passed this particular subjective test or else it wouldn't exist in the first place), the importance of the page is not the issue (I'd say attacks that can instantly kill opponents are rather important to the game). The issue is if the page is too specific or not (which as Kamasama pointed out, there is no rule against). My point was that it is it is more or less impossible to draw a line between 'this page is too specific to exist' and 'this page is general enough to exist', especially when the page in question, Critical Finish, would otherwise fit into the extremely generalized Instant Kill page, which applies itself to not only fighting game instant kills, but also to spikes, pits, sneak attacks, Death spells, headshots, weapons that just happen to kill in 1 hit, large falls, and so on (interestingly enough, while the main page of this concept covers stealth, environmental hazards, RPG's, and shooters, it doesn't touch upon fighting games like the one in question). Essentially, this concept is important to the game that it is in and i can't see why it should be deleted just for being specific.
@Kamasama: Sorry if I was unclear; I didn't mean that a page being more specific than another is subjective, I meant saying a page is 'too specific to exist' is subjective.
" @Hailinel: Concepts don't have to have rules as strict as game pages. The concept pages are more the "miscellaneous" portion of the site; just about anything goes. I don't see why it's a big deal, even if there are numerous concepts describing a similar action, as long as each one is in a different game and is specifically named. "
So if I make a game where a character has Super Strength, but is constantly referred to in the game as Beefy Muscle, Beefy Muscle would get its own concept page despite the fact that it is obviously just Super Strength with a cute name? "
Well for this. The instant death part can only happen if certain items are met. He has to be in soul crush mode. "
And to perform an Instant Kill in Guilty Gear, you need to press all four attack buttons to enter the state that allows you to perform the attack. Either way, one character or another is in a specific state, whether that's performing a set-up input, getting dazed, having a specific gauge filled, or what have you. "
Yes but soul crush is not an input or state you can enter manually. It is basically a broken block gauge. The "loser" has to blok until he falls into sould crush mode, then the "winner" can perform the input for critical finish.
whether or not this should be a seperate concept is up for debate but I wanted to put this clarification out there.
" @Hailinel: Concepts don't have to have rules as strict as game pages. The concept pages are more the "miscellaneous" portion of the site; just about anything goes. I don't see why it's a big deal, even if there are numerous concepts describing a similar action, as long as each one is in a different game and is specifically named. "
So if I make a game where a character has Super Strength, but is constantly referred to in the game as Beefy Muscle, Beefy Muscle would get its own concept page despite the fact that it is obviously just Super Strength with a cute name? "
Well for this. The instant death part can only happen if certain items are met. He has to be in soul crush mode. "
And to perform an Instant Kill in Guilty Gear, you need to press all four attack buttons to enter the state that allows you to perform the attack. Either way, one character or another is in a specific state, whether that's performing a set-up input, getting dazed, having a specific gauge filled, or what have you. "
Yes but soul crush is not an input or state you can enter manually. It is basically a broken block gauge. The "loser" has to blok until he falls into sould crush mode, then the "winner" can perform the input for critical finish. whether or not this should be a seperate concept is up for debate but I wanted to put this clarification out there. "
So is the Instant Kill set-up state in Guilty Gear. I don't see your point.
@Hailinel: The instant kill in guilty gear is a state you enter manually. I can instigate an insta-kill in guilty gear on demand while Critical finishes depend on certain criteria that are beyond the player's control (IE if opponent doesnt stay there and block for a minute it will never happen) .
" @Hailinel: The instant kill in guilty gear is a state you enter manually. I can instigate an insta-kill in guilty gear on demand while Critical finishes depend on certain criteria that are beyond the player's control (IE if opponent doesnt stay there and block for a minute it will never happen) . "
But it still ends the round no matter how much health the opponent has left.
" @Hailinel: The instant kill in guilty gear is a state you enter manually. I can instigate an insta-kill in guilty gear on demand while Critical finishes depend on certain criteria that are beyond the player's control (IE if opponent doesnt stay there and block for a minute it will never happen) . "
But it still ends the round no matter how much health the opponent has left."
Yes but one can be activated as a bout starts while the other would have to wait until conditions are met. An attack that ends the fight no matter the health could litterally be traced back to Bushido Blade or possibly even further back (not aware of any prior myself)
" @Hailinel: The instant kill in guilty gear is a state you enter manually. I can instigate an insta-kill in guilty gear on demand while Critical finishes depend on certain criteria that are beyond the player's control (IE if opponent doesnt stay there and block for a minute it will never happen) . "
But it still ends the round no matter how much health the opponent has left."
Yes but one can be activated as a bout starts while the other would have to wait until conditions are met. An attack that ends the fight no matter the health could litterally be traced back to Bushido Blade or possibly even further back (not aware of any prior myself) "
Then I suppose Bushido Blade should be associated with the Instant Kill page as well, if it isn't already.
" @Hailinel: The instant kill in guilty gear is a state you enter manually. I can instigate an insta-kill in guilty gear on demand while Critical finishes depend on certain criteria that are beyond the player's control (IE if opponent doesnt stay there and block for a minute it will never happen) . "
But it still ends the round no matter how much health the opponent has left."
Yes but one can be activated as a bout starts while the other would have to wait until conditions are met. An attack that ends the fight no matter the health could litterally be traced back to Bushido Blade or possibly even further back (not aware of any prior myself) "
Then I suppose Bushido Blade should be associated with the Instant Kill page as well, if it isn't already. "
" @Hailinel: The instant kill in guilty gear is a state you enter manually. I can instigate an insta-kill in guilty gear on demand while Critical finishes depend on certain criteria that are beyond the player's control (IE if opponent doesnt stay there and block for a minute it will never happen) . "
But it still ends the round no matter how much health the opponent has left."
Yes but one can be activated as a bout starts while the other would have to wait until conditions are met. An attack that ends the fight no matter the health could litterally be traced back to Bushido Blade or possibly even further back (not aware of any prior myself) "
Then I suppose Bushido Blade should be associated with the Instant Kill page as well, if it isn't already. "
Wh...what..what happened to your avatar?! "
Felt like changing things up for a bit. :P Don't worry. The world hasn't gone completely to hell. I made Ginchiyo my profile pic.
Log in to comment