A Modest Proposal Concerning Women in Gaming/Sexism Threads

Hi all. I'm JadeGL here on the boards, and pretty much anywhere else online really.

Lately, there have been a lot of threads concerning various articles tackling the issue of Women in Gaming, or if you want the shorthand - Sexism. I think they're really starting to clog the boards, and posting new ones just causes virtually the same set of posters to move virtually the same conversations along to another thread, cutting off the discussion in one and transplanting it, for lack of a better term, to the newer one. My proposal is to have a large mega thread, a catch all where new articles will be posted. This is so that we cut down on the glut of new threads, but also so we can consolidate the discussion and continue it in one place. This will, hopefully, remove the need for posters that frequent those threads to repeat themselves with every new blog post or video, and it will hopefully also cut down on the comments like "Oh no, not this shit again" that always seem to pop up in the new threads as well. I think, in the end, it will make discussions easier to follow, articles and videos easier to track down (since the list will be kept in the first post with new ones added as the need arises) and cause less frustration for people who want to follow the discussion and for those who don't as well.

Of course, this won't negate the need to start new threads for more game specific issues. Those, I assume, would be started in the appropriate sub-forum and talked about there. I just was thinking about a mega thread for things like the Tropes videos, any rebuttal videos, articles or blog posts, or anything pertinent to the overall issue that we may want to house in one place.

Anyway, let me know what you think. I honestly feel like there are a lot of threads that could just be brought under one umbrella instead of new threads being started every day, sometimes multiple times a day. If you guys think the idea sucks, then that's cool too, we can just continue along like we have been with the separate threads.

Again, thanks for the read and thanks for the input.

We should have a thread on child preparation too.

@kidavenger: Ok, you got me, I didn't even think about the Jonathan Swift piece when I made the headline. That's embarrassing.

At this point I don't even like coming to the site as much all because of the sexism threads. If people want to talk about it let there be a thread dedicated for those individuals. So they can bitch and argue with each other all day they want, but then again its probably going to get out of hand and get locked.

I definitely would prefer one thread, but sometimes one thread isn't enough in some cases as you said and I feel like people will want their voice heard on a certain game specific scenario that it negates the usefulness of one thread. Though, again, I agree with you. I'd like there to be a single thread devoted to this subject, but I feel like without actual forum rules regarding the creation of topics regarding this subject threads will continue to be made regardless.

Also I do prefer the term "women in games" to "sexism". I feel like the term sexism is thrown around a bit too much, here and elsewhere.

Ugh...thanks Polygon...But in reality, its not an issue. There are games out there where there is a female lead, and if one wants to play it then all the power to them...I just don't want to have everyone's criticism thrown down my throat. I play a game because I enjoy it, and don't look for deeper meaning or wonder why doesn't this game have a predominant female lead.

It's purely for my enjoyment.

I agree that we should have more catch-all threads for these things, but the trouble with something like that is that there are numerous individual controversies that spring up over time on one game or another, a twitter crusade, etc. So much springs up on other sites and bleeds into here that it would be incredibly difficult to just lump them all together. Grant Theft Auto 5 is a good example of a legitimate discussion that I don't think would be done justice to be crammed into a megathread. Some of them deserve their own spotlight, I think.

I do think that we could have some sort of Anita Sarkeesian megathread, though. I'm tired of a million threads about her, and anyone who really cares about discussing her could stick to a single thread with ease.

just ban them all

i have a hard time believing the majority of these people arent 4chan trolls who have adapted a new level of 'sophistication' with their trolling strategies.

Yea I like the idea of a mega thread for "sexism" stuff that way the people that want to fight it out have their place to do it and it doesn't clog up the forums.

I myself am sick of all the "criticism" and talk about sexism to where I barely come back to the forums or even click on Patrick's articles relating to this subject anymore or even watch bombin the am anymore.

I just watch the videos on GB and leave.

@marokai: That's kind of what I mean. I know that game specific things will crop up, but I think there are enough threads concerning the Tropes videos and blogs of a general nature (not game specific) that a bigger thread may cut down on aggravation for people who want to discuss it and people who don't. I was just thinking that some of this stuff is so similar as to be redundant, but I understand the difficulty of trying to curate one larger thread as well.

@jadegl: Fair enough then. I think ultimately what would solve this issue is the creation of a "Debate" or "Serious Discussions" board, for people who are interested in these topics to frequent on their own, and those who don't ever want to see those things can filter them out in forum settings.

Gamespot use to have something called "unions" where individuals could go to discuss topics related to their interests. Essentially that's what you're after, a collective spot to more easily identify/isolate the trolls or the "internet clever" types to stimulate actual discussion.

So an individual user created, and moderated, group thread sounds good in theory and i think it could expand into more useful things like multiplayer collective groups that can ping out playtimes for everyone to meet up but i dunno that Giant Bomb's interests are in community services.

How about just an entire 'sexual issues' board (like the 'off-topic' board) where all those threads could go and those who want to see those threads can keep them in their overall forum view and everyone else can take that board off their personal forum view?

God damn it, you beat me to it.

Seems like a bit much.

@jadegl: I approve of this message.

What I would really like to see is a separate board for these type of things that can be hidden from view (like we used to be able to do with Off Topic) so people can discuss these issues all they want, but those people who really just want to talk about video games can do that, too.

I had Off Topic hidden for years and put a lot of effort into keeping non-gaming threads there, so people weren't forced to view them. That functionality is currently broken...maybe @rorie can see if some engineering time can be allocated to this? It would be nice to hide boards from view again so they don't show up in the recent topics feed like they used to.

@librorumprohibitorum:

Well I think it seems awesome! I mean it'd be like another off-topic forum.

I guess this is rather against the spirt of the Wiki system, but maybe it would be worth appropriating or creating a wiki page so its forum be used as the de facto "sexism forum". However, I'm not up on the forum rules and so on, so I don't know if this usage is against the rules.

Well, you took what I wanted to say away from me... You monster.

I think this idea is fantastic, and we should go full force!

@jadegl: I've actually thought of just doing the same thing for the exact reasons you mentioned. 1) WAY too many similar threads, or threads about specific news that turn into the same old yelling. and 2) Try and do something about all of the damn abe-simpson-walking-in-and-out-of-the-brothel gifs and facepalms that derail any attempt at dialog. But I think there's a problem.

As one of those posters that frequent those threads myself as you mentioned (I try to be productive at least, I really do!), something like a "mega thread" could kill any individual conversation taking place. Imagine you and I are having a good discussion about whatever in the "mega thread", then some new news about whatever comes out, and our posts are washed away in the torrent of new people talking and yelling and posting dumb ass gifs about the new thing. Bad times. Maybe there's some way around that, and I'd love to hear it because there are still those benefits to consolidating this type of thing.

I think there are other things we can do to move in a better direction, but it's just a lot harder. Here are some ideas to add to the brainstorm.

- Try to discourage threads where the OP is too vague. When there's something like, "Hey this MGS character is in a Bikini! Discuss..." the thread is just gonna plummet because aside from spam, people will use it to air whatever general grievance they have. But if it were an original post about the differences in western vs japanese depictions of women, female characters in MGS history vs. the new one, military women in games, sexualisation vs. strength, or anything even a bit more focused, the tread would likely be more focused in turn.

- Similar to the first idea, try to discourage OPs that just link to another article/video/blog from somewhere else. Those conversations are best handled where that content is posted, because again, any discussion that's just about "Here's an article where X says Y is sexist" will start off generic and pointless and just get worse. Often in places like Kotatsu/Polygon, the person who wrote the article is active in the comments as well, so that's the place to rant/applaud at them. We do have forum rules about YouTube spam and such for a good reason.

- Speaking of forum rules, get your flag on! I hate when people do nothing but take up space quoting others with no added thoughts of their own, and I just a few days ago saw that it's against the forum rules. Oh sweet relief! So when you see a thread trying to legitimately create a good discussion, and it's clogged with, "In B 4 thread gets locked" quoted 4 times, flag those posts!

- We need more variety of posts in general. Forum activity on the whole is way down, so when a thread is created that everyone wants to chime in on it stays at the top of the list for a really, really long time. Have 5 or so similar threads, and it seems like the boards are nothing but that. There's no good solution for this one, controversy will always draw more people in, but maybe if we all take the time to post in other threads just about things we like, other stuff about games, whatever, there would be some relief from the outrage onslaught.

Well, that's a long post. Sorry! And thanks to you and everyone else for trying to make this a better place. There are great conversations I've had over the years here, and I'm sure many more to come. :)

Prepare for a million smartasses making not-so-modest jokes. Like me! Who here wants to play a game where you chow down on Irish babies?

I totally agree. I almost didn't even open this thread because I saw the words sexism and gaming in the title and thought it would be more of the same. No need to keep a million identical threads.

i hope people post more sexism threads because of the people who post in every single one but claim to hate them and hope they go away

One, pinned mega thread sounds like a fantastic idea to me (as a person who is totally sick of a new women-in-games thread every other day).

Oh you mean somewhere where Darj can fall down a deep dark hole where I will never see him again?

Sure totally agree here. One mega thread should be great because people who visit these threads including me have always the same discussion when these threads come up so all we do is running and arguing in circles over and over again.

I've stopped reading/watching any Patrick content and only check the forum threads on the front page. Really, really tired of the online video game community circle jerk lately.

@pie: Come on duder, no personal attacks. Sure there are users that may rub us the wrong way, but you should deal with them privately in a PM or something. Or if they're really being disruptive, let the mods know and they'll contact them. This thread is about making things better for everybody, leave the hate out.

Not trying to hate on Patrick, but I think some of his work is a real reason why this site has become rife with the sexism discussion/arguing. He does a lot of great journalism, but then also creates editorials that can be pretty divisive. Not that he should censor himself, but some things seem like they'd be better served being on a personal blog rather than being featured, and thus in some way speaking for, a web site.

I would be in your debt if you can get these forums to just talk about video games again, it hasn't been like this for a long time, we discuss literally everything except for what games actually offer in their gameplay and discussing these mechanics and what we do in game and how we have fun.

Just imagine it, you go to giantbomb.com, hit the forum button, and when you look at the list of recent threads you see threads talking about specific things in specific games, game mechanic comparisons, discussions about specific campaign missions, etc...

Sounds glorious, but far from the truth, because discussing games isn't controversial.

@joshwent: You are right.

@jouseldelka: I know what you mean. I'll see if I can get the old functionality back to hide Off Topic from view, that will be a good start.

I think a whole sub forum regarding the social issues inherent in gaming could be warranted. That way, it would have a 'place' (other than General) and folks would know what to expect going in. M

In regards to the linking of other articles, in think that keeping that practice isn't a bad idea. Not all gamers read all outlets, and expanding the exposure of unique opinions allows others to think about them and offer their own critiques. Like it or not, videogames are an artform, and open/passionate discourse about them only helps improve the industry.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

Excellent. I've suggested that recently as well, and I'm glad to see that at least one moderator--possibly more--is on board with the idea.

I've kind of stopped commenting in those threads a few months ago. I think topics like sexism in games should be discussed, but it became the same arguments over and over again, just dressed differently. Even well thought-out posts came off condescending or hostile in a lot of cases. So instead of sighing or rolling my eyes through text, I try to stay away, unless I can bring some levity to the situation.

And maybe I'm mistaken so apologies if I don't notice everything all the time, but most of these threads give the impression (to me, at least) that the OP is tired of sexism in some fashion, but accidentally begins a new dialogue on sexism because of the thread. I understand the need to defend a certain game or even personal opinions, but I just find it a little odd. It's either people actually care or they don't. I don't see a ton of "Anita Sarkeesian Is My Hero" or "I Find Random Japanese Game Misogynist" threads here. Certain members might have those opinions, yeah, but I don't see those thread titles anywhere. I think the "Ladies, Are We Too Sensitive to MGS 5?" or whatever could have been a good conversation, but I'm told that went to shit fairly quickly.

I'm sure there are other great examples of doing things right, but it seems like all these threads get started because of something Kotaku or Polygon said (or whatever tactless bullshit some person tweeted). The Giant Bomb staff doesn't get into all this much, so it's mostly coming from the outside. There's Patrick's work (and maybe Alex), but if someone's against those sort of things, they can easily be avoided. Again, totally understand people's motivations, but I don't know, maybe I see things differently.

Anyway, I'm all for consolidating, but I understand why it isn't perfect, because reasons already stated.

I agree that sexism/women in games is a topic that should be discussed, but I also agree that the number of forum threads on the topic has gotten severely out of hand. Consolidating discussion to a dedicated thread or forum would be a great step in both fostering discussion (as such would be easier to follow and moderate than a hundred disparate threads) and making it easier for those that don't wish to participate to not be inundated with new threads appearing in the recent topics feed every day.

it would be nice if you could use a filter in this forum where you could block entire threads that have the word 'sexism, feminism, misogyny, etc' in them. that would be amazing, and i would probably enjoy the experience a lot more.

@tarsier: This is why the simplest and best solution in the long-term is to just create some sort of "debate" or "serious discussion" board where mods can relegate a lot of these topics, and people can be free to filter out that forum if they wish. Everyone's happy in that scenario.

or you could name it more accurately 'pig vomit'

Maybe the ability to just straight up block seeing a certain user's posts would go a long way. Then, if there are people in those kind of threads that are habitually disruptive, you could just make them disappear and then continue having a conversation.

I could have sworn that there was a block option one here once, but I guess it's gone.

It sounds like a good idea. I pity the mods responsible for it. I've known forums before that attempted to lump all their arguments into one basket and ended up just deleting the basket.

Giant Bomb never at any point featured the option to block specific users from view. Only the option to filter out forums.

Same. Also I wanted to mention that this bandwagon will pass soon and we'll be onto the next hot button topic. So, just wait it out a bit longer.

I have to say that, while I would like to see more of a crack down on shitposting, more megathreads to consolidate certain topics, and a new board for discussing controversies and political topics and so on like this, I don't see why people just can't... avoid threads they don't want to read. Same goes for certain posters (let's admit it, we're all thinking of Darji). It's not like the Giant Bomb forums move that fast that it's so hard to scroll past a thread or two and still keep track of topics you do like.

I'd settle for a filter for threads ending in "discuss"

At this point, I would rather see this topic banned unless it is a staff supported article that is heavily moderated. And honestly, this topic is bigger than posters here are really willing to devote time to discussing so it is not very constructive to continually bring it up.

Actually, there was an ignore option on blog posts, although I'm not entirely sure what the hell that did. By the time I discovered it, it was a vestigial feature which resulted in nothing (as far as I could tell).

Since I don't think it's a "topic" for "discussion", I don't think any of it is worth reading, but since no one is posting worthwhile discussions about actual stuff (what does GTA V say about how far along storytelling in games has come and how far it still has to go, for instance, or the torture scene) I have no problem trolling/ignoring all the worthless topics on misogyny and sexism.

Or how about discussion on monetization and what people should be doing in smaller cheaper games that guys like me can actually afford, or going with high-production-value episodics outside of the adventure-game genre that might draw in the interest of someone in my income bracket, and how much AAA-level stuff could be marketed to people like me (and discussion of whether the format is even good or not, etc.). Bla bla bla.

I think those topics are all interesting and worth discussion, along with many others. No one else agrees, though, apparently, or I'd see more of it on the forums, which is also why I don't post seriously very often.

Let's just do with this topic what we did with wallpaper threads.

SEXISM IN GAMING ACCUSATIONS THREAD Q4 2013

That'd be okay, I'd like mb's idea for a sexism forum that can be hidden from view, where goes all the sexiness.

A forum will not change the problems we have. Problem is that with every new thread we write the same thing over and over again. With one huge thread that will not happen as much. And people invested in this topic will have a much better platform with one thread because they do not need it to explain over and over again.