#1 Edited by Reisz (1455 posts) -

I don't pay a lot of attention to Twitter. Apart from the Giant Bomb guys and Hideo Kojima I can't think of anyone I read regularly. So I missed this whole Adam Orth thing when it apparently blew up but something about this GDC spot hits me weird.

If you don't know what I'm referencing you can check it out here.

So at the first GDC Next, a conference for game developers specifically focused on the upcoming generation and how to approach business, marketing and development methodologies in the new landscape. This chap, Adam Orth is giving a presentation on "toxic online behaviour"

This is where it goes weird for me. Is a man, a regular human male, going to get up on stage in front of -presumably- several hundred paying guests and speak for a half hour or so about not being a dick? Is this really a presentation to say "Well, here's the thing guys; if you act like an asshole, people think you're an asshole."

Am I misunderstanding the term "toxic online behaviour"? Because to me that sounds like PR talk for not being a decent person on the internet. As @brodehouse explained, I was. Toxic behaviour is actually a step up from being an asshole, it's poor conduct that lowers the resultant behaviour of everyone else in a given community. An interesting game related example is the way players in League of Legends act, my limited understanding is that exploitative play and derogatory remarks are so ubiquitous that it is lowering the overall experience of the player base as other people respond in kind.

Still It kind of boggles my mind that we have gotten far enough away from courtesy with our fellow users that there are now people holding presentations to rooms full of people to say "Be nice."

#2 Posted by JasonR86 (9587 posts) -

#eh, whatever

#3 Posted by Spitznock (471 posts) -

Meh, it's just more Twitter drama. I wouldn't pay it much mind.

#4 Edited by Humanity (8715 posts) -

@reisz: Didn't that Manveer guy later tweet that people shouldn't get too excited because they know each other and were just messing around?

#5 Posted by CornBREDX (4755 posts) -

#dealwithit

haha just kidding... I couldn't resist

It is interesting that your first two responders were flip and the second doesn't appear to have even read your post. I always find that fascinating.

Ya, I saw on Polygon he would be talking about this and how that is strange as well. In my mind I twisted it up (because I like to do such things) and imagined it meaning he wants to say how fucked up the internet is, and how everyone on it just turns everything toxic. You know, like saying people who live in VA or WI need to get with the times. Certainly something the speaker can relate to and therefore we, as the audience, will care what he has to say about it.

Seriously, though. This guy should not be getting anymore attention. He's a dick, why focus on it anymore?

#6 Edited by Brodehouse (9521 posts) -

(I may not be completely accurate here, so please grain of salt)

Toxic behaviour is called such to differentiate it from bad behaviour (being an asshole). Toxic behaviour is bad behaviour that demonstrably decreases the quality of everyone else's behaviour, in debate this is called poisoning the well. It's shitty behaviour that makes everyone else shitty.

#7 Posted by Animasta (14637 posts) -

(I may not be completely accurate here, so please grain of salt)

Toxic behaviour is called such to differentiate it from bad behaviour (being an asshole). Toxic behaviour is bad behaviour that demonstrably decreases the quality of everyone else's behaviour, in debate this is called poisoning the well. It's shitty behaviour that makes everyone else shitty.

that's what I always figured it as at least.

#8 Posted by EXTomar (4453 posts) -

*shrug* Maybe the issue with toxic behavior starts at the source? When facing toward potential customers, I have a hard time believing a response to any possible question they would have is "Deal with it".

#9 Posted by Reisz (1455 posts) -

@jasonr86, @spitznock, @humanity: I couldn't care less about what was said on Twitter, My concern is with the redundant nature of this GDC presentation he is holding. I've changed my post accordingly.

@cornbredx: I noticed that too, the changes I made should make it more clear. You're probably right about drawing more attention to him though, still, I think what this says about the online community is worth discussing.

@brodehouse: Man I didn't even bother to check that before I made my assumptions. Thanks for clearing that up, it's kind of interesting and definitely a distinct difference to simply poor behaviour, I edited that in. Thanks again.

#10 Posted by CornBREDX (4755 posts) -

@reisz: I agree it is an interesting and important discussion to have. I don't think Adam Orth is the right man to really bring it to the table- even if the discussion is not about his own toxic behavior haha

Who knows, maybe he'll have something interesting to say on the topic. I am certainly keen to listen. Solving it is rather difficult, but it has been a problem with online games since online games were ever created. Before that even, with sports (oh ya, this problem exists in the real world too).

#11 Edited by scalpel (314 posts) -

"Toxic behavior" sounds like the kind of term an elementary school teacher would use.

#12 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (5138 posts) -

It'll be interesting to hear at the very least.

#13 Posted by BaconGames (3280 posts) -

While he isn't above criticism, he's technically someone who has been on the receiving end of an internet shit storm and I'm sure people like him have no shortage of opinions and stories. I will say this, most of us haven't or won't be on the receiving end of that much hot internet rage. I bet it would be interesting to hear it from the other side, even if his handling of the situation wasn't very elegant to say the least.

#14 Edited by YukoAsho (2001 posts) -

@reisz said:

I don't pay a lot of attention to Twitter. Apart from the Giant Bomb guys and Hideo Kojima I can't think of anyone I read regularly. So I missed this whole Adam Orth thing when it apparently blew up but something about this GDC spot hits me weird.

If you don't know what I'm referencing you can check it out here.

So at the first GDC Next, a conference for game developers specifically focused on the upcoming generation and how to approach business, marketing and development methodologies in the new landscape. This chap, Adam Orth is giving a presentation on "toxic online behaviour"

This is where it goes weird for me. Is a man, a regular human male, going to get up on stage in front of -presumably- several hundred paying guests and speak for a half hour or so about not being a dick? Is this really a presentation to say "Well, here's the thing guys; if you act like an asshole, people think you're an asshole."

Am I misunderstanding the term "toxic online behaviour"? Because to me that sounds like PR talk for not being a decent person on the internet. As @brodehouse explained, I was. Toxic behaviour is actually a step up from being an asshole, it's poor conduct that lowers the resultant behaviour of everyone else in a given community. An interesting game related example is the way players in League of Legends act, my limited understanding is that exploitative play and derogatory remarks are so ubiquitous that it is lowering the overall experience of the player base as other people respond in kind.

Still It kind of boggles my mind that we have gotten far enough away from courtesy with our fellow users that there are now people holding presentations to rooms full of people to say "Be nice."

Yeah, I can see what you mean. That there's going to be a "don't be an asshole" presentation at what is essentially a freaking business meeting says something very tragic about the state of civil discourse in the developed world.

#15 Posted by BaconGames (3280 posts) -

@yukoasho: Not really, if you have given millions upon millions of people unrestrained (key word here) ability to express and communicate their thoughts in the moment (also key) that is also simultaneously recorded for an audience to respond to. We have a pretty simple but universal cultural track that tells us to educate others about right and wrong but that instruction stops when encountering the new complex things that are invented in these few years. Online conduct for kids is starting to catch up but there's no accounting for adults that simply choose or don't know how not to be dicks on the internet.

Besides, the entirety of society has had mixed success with telling itself not to be an asshole. I think more of that is never a bad thing.

#16 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3535 posts) -

So wait, is he going to say "I was fired for being an asshole, so don't do that," or is he going to say "I was fired for making some simple comments, and people freaked out, so be very careful what you say on the internet."

Is the "online toxicity" in question him arguably being a belligerent prick, or the internet not responding well to belligerent pricks?

#17 Posted by danm_999 (74 posts) -

So wait, is he going to say "I was fired for being an asshole, so don't do that," or is he going to say "I was fired for making some simple comments, and people freaked out, so be very careful what you say on the internet."

Is the "online toxicity" in question him arguably being a belligerent prick, or the internet not responding well to belligerent pricks?

Surely the former, right?

....right?

#18 Posted by Brodehouse (9521 posts) -

So wait, is he going to say "I was fired for being an asshole, so don't do that," or is he going to say "I was fired for making some simple comments, and people freaked out, so be very careful what you say on the internet."

Is the "online toxicity" in question him arguably being a belligerent prick, or the internet not responding well to belligerent pricks?

I'm sure the 'environment' online will be what's to blame. You see it in the various gender threads around here, there's no shortage of people who want to pop in and condemn every single person in the thread and then take off never to be seen again. It's a pessimistic environment where everyone assumes the worst and tries to devolve any real discussion to insults and condemnation because they don't want to be bothered by the idea that people can communicate on the internet.

That's not a defense of Orth's actions. And I can say that you usually see communities themselves correct for it, basically how you see old memes die out. Even on Reddit you were starting to see people edging back from the kind of insanely anti-Xbone rhetoric they were on E3 week, going back to more reasonable (but still negative) reactions after the initial shitstorm was over.

#19 Posted by Lord_Xp (602 posts) -

One of the bad sides of being an executive at company of that mass is that you can't joke around too much in fear that the wrong thing might be said. Even if it is playful fun with a friend who knows your personality. No matter what, you'll always have to keep that in mind that people are watching your every move and everything you do could make or break your career. Sad to see that being funny with a friend ends up losing your job.

I found it pretty funny to be honest.

#20 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3535 posts) -

@lord_xp said:

One of the bad sides of being an executive at company of that mass is that you can't joke around too much in fear that the wrong thing might be said. Even if it is playful fun with a friend who knows your personality. No matter what, you'll always have to keep that in mind that people are watching your every move and everything you do could make or break your career. Sad to see that being funny with a friend ends up losing your job.

I found it pretty funny to be honest.

Except:

1) You can send private tweets, which he didn't do.

2) The #dealwithit tweet wasn't a reply to anyone. It was a blanket statement directed towards anyone who didn't agree with him.

Not even two weeks after the Adam Orth thing, I took a training course at my work that essentially said "If you tell people online that you work for this company, you are responsible for your actions online as someone who represents this company. If you wouldn't say something to a customer in the store, don't say it online."

Good advice.

#21 Posted by EXTomar (4453 posts) -

That is crazy talk SpaceInsomniac! You are supposed to make the person feel bad at every turn and make them feel miserable with every interaction they take with them. :)

#22 Edited by jerseyscum (861 posts) -

#dealwithit

The Unemployment Line