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Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

Edit: Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition (full version) is now $14.99 / 1200 MSP on Xbox Live.

So it seems there are a lot of misinformed (or ignorant, probably ignorant) people reacting extremely negatively to Ultra Street Fighter IV. Here is my argument for why this is unfounded.

Firstly, and perhaps most importantly: The only people who are angered by this don't even play the game. Yes, that's right. I seriously doubt anyone who plays this game is upset by a $15 piece of DLC. I'm still playing this game after 4 years (in its various incarnations) and it got me into fighting games again, I am so pumped for the new version.

Secondly, check out Patrick's article about how much these updates and new characters actually cost to develop. (Spoiler alert: It's a lot)

Now for a history lesson:

Street Fighter IV, 2009, $60, Retail

- 25 characters

- God-tier versions of Sagat and Akuma (Sagat specifically was a fucking monster in this version, easy as hell half-your-life-gone combos)

- LOOK AT THAT DAMAGE.

- One ultra per character

- Weak online modes, no lobbies, no replay feature

Super Street Fighter IV, 2010, $40, Retail

- 10 new characters, Dudley, Ibuki, Cody, Guy, Dee Jay, T.Hawk, Juri, Hakan, Adon, Makoto

- 5 new stages

- Added replays, team battles, lobbies to online mode

- Brand new ultras for every character (2 per character)

- New arcade endings, new trials/challenges (not that anyone really cared)

- Total re-balance

Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition, Dec 2010/January 2011, $15, DLC, Retail version replaces SSFIV

- 4 new characters, Yang, Yun, Evil Ryu, Oni

- Total re-balance

- Somewhat controversial as it made Yang, Yun and Fei Long very dominant

Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition: Version 2012, December 2011/February 2012 (PC), $0, DLC

- Easily the most balanced version of SFIV with very few 'bad' characters

- Total re-balance

- Big ass list of balance changes here

- It's free you guys

Ultra Street Fighter IV, 2014, $15, DLC, Retail ($40) replaces SSFIV AE retail copies and comes with all DLC costumes

- 5 'new' characters (admittedly 4 of them are data mined from SFxT, but work is still having to be done for their super and two ultra combos)

- 6 new stages (rumoured to be from SFxT)

- Total re-balance

- New modes (no idea what these are yet)

- You don't need SSFIV AE to upgrade if you only have Super Street Fighter IV from 2010

So yeah. I personally see no issue with this, is it really that bad that Capcom are updating the most popular fighting game in the world? I think not.

It would be nice if these updates were free, it really would, but frankly it's a rarity that DLC is free these days and this latest piece is still providing more value than 2 hours of Saints Row III gameplay.

#1 Edited by McGhee (6075 posts) -

I agree. Although I don't think I have the desire to get back into playing again. Don't have the time to devote to it anymore to be as good as I can be.

#2 Edited by Itwastuesday (982 posts) -

Recycling stuff from that garbo fighting game SFxT for most of the content of this update is mad lazy, but makes sense in a "recover some money on these assets" way, I guess, not that I care about that as a consumer.

#3 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

Recycling stuff from that garbo fighting game SFxT for most of the content of this update is mad lazy, but makes sense in a "recover some money on these assets" way, I guess, not that I care about that as a consumer.

It is a bit disappointing but at $15 the change-up the 5 characters will add to the rest of the game, and the re-balance make it a pretty good deal still. I'm just happy they are buffing Yang, lol.

#4 Edited by DougCL (218 posts) -

yeah, i get the feeling that the people complaining about this either don't play the game, or don't play it enough to know that each of these updates were great and well worth the money.

#5 Posted by Hunter5024 (5958 posts) -

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

#6 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

Exactly. And in the days of SFII didn't it cost like $50 to get the new version? For less added content...

#7 Posted by DarthOrange (3890 posts) -

Vanilla Sagat is a boss!

#8 Posted by Zacagawea (1613 posts) -

Yeah, it's really weird to have just come off of EVO and to be reading this shit. It's made me realize the hard position Capcom is in between players who play fighting games and those that...do...but, don't, you know? They want opposite things right now. That said, for me...SFV pls.

Online
#9 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@zacagawea said:

Yeah, it's really weird to have just come off of EVO and to be reading this shit. It's made me realize the hard position Capcom is in between players who play fighting games and those that...do...but, don't, you know? They want opposite things right now. That said, for me...SFV pls.

I totally want SFV too, but at the same time...it does seem a bit premature. I'm not sure how much Capcom have to gain from selling more copies of a brand new Street Fighter as opposed to still supporting and keeping SFIV dominant in the fighting game community and its tournaments. I have a feeling this new version (since it's retail, and you can upgrade from SSFIV) will bring back a lot of people.

Personally I'd like to see Capcom vs. SNK 3 or a new Darkstalkers first...or better yet, an Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 update, because unfortunately that game is getting very stale, with Dr. Doom, Vergil and Zero being in what feels like every team once you get to the final stages of tournaments.

The main factor keeping SFV away is probably that fighting games are already quite niche, and new console adoption will be quite low. It could be disastrous to release SFV when there's not many next generation consoles out, although it would give many an incentive to buy one, but maybe not enough.

#10 Edited by Kill (298 posts) -

Street Fighter IV is still the most played and celebrated fighting game in what has been a crowded genre in the last few years. It's also the only game maintaining a vibrant competitive following other than UMvC. Even if SFxT turned out to be a success, it would make total sense to cater to those hardcore fans by giving them this update. It keeps the scene going for another few years and allows Capcom time to develop SFV deeper into next gen when the new consoles are figured out. Even if the assets are ripped from SFxT, they still have to come up with ultra combos and balance tweaks for the rest of the roster. That's worth $15 to me.

#11 Edited by casper_ (910 posts) -

i don't get the anger about updates on a title aimed at a relatively niche crowd of people who still play the game despite said game being relatively old. i doubt capcom is aiming to make a killing in the mainstream with this update it seems more like they are trying to please their hardcore fans which is kind of commendable. this is for the SF heads/FGC and will tide them over until the release of SF5, which will be a long time seeing as how Ono just said that he doesnt have the budget to work on it.

its seems pretty black and white to me, if you are still playing SFIV actively you probably ought to check this out. if you aren't still playing why the fuck would you care what they do with the game?

#12 Posted by Clonedzero (4196 posts) -

I'm not mad, I don't really care. But shouldn't they be making Street Fighter V? Or is that something thats assumed to be in development for next-gen, with this being something to tide people over till then?

#13 Edited by Tennmuerti (8174 posts) -

@sooty said:

@hunter5024 said:

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

Exactly. And in the days of SFII didn't it cost like $50 to get the new version? For less added content...

It's completely fine, when there is a $15 DLC option for those that already own the main game.

The problem is when there is no way to only get the DLC for original owners and you have to pay full $40 just to get extra content. Like the first update to SF4 was and the more recent Dragon's Dogma dlc. That's the shit that can get bent.

Ultra is fine.

#14 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@tennmuerti said:

@sooty said:

@hunter5024 said:

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

Exactly. And in the days of SFII didn't it cost like $50 to get the new version? For less added content...

It's completely fine, when there is a $15 DLC option for those that already own the main game.

The problem is when there is no way to only get the DLC for original owners and you have to pay full $40 just to get extra content. Like the first update to SF4 was and the more recent Dragon's Dogma dlc. That's the shit that can get bent.

Ultra is fine.

So what? The content of SSFIV was worth 2/3 of the price of SFIV, yeah it was annoying you couldn't buy it as DLC, but I don't see it being a big deal that you had to get it on disc instead. It would still have been close to $40 had it only been DLC.

What would have been dumb if AE was retail only, because that in comparison added little content.

#15 Edited by davidwitten22 (1708 posts) -

I don't mind it, and I will still by it, but add me to the list of people that are disappointed that the new characters are just characters they are going to rip out of X Tekken. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to play as Elena, but I think people were expecting something a bit more exciting. The 5th character might be, but we'll see.

I wish it was closer to April so Capcom's April Fool's joke could be that the 5th character for Ultra is Skorpion. That would be perfect.

#16 Posted by Tennmuerti (8174 posts) -

@sooty said:

@tennmuerti said:

@sooty said:

@hunter5024 said:

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

Exactly. And in the days of SFII didn't it cost like $50 to get the new version? For less added content...

It's completely fine, when there is a $15 DLC option for those that already own the main game.

The problem is when there is no way to only get the DLC for original owners and you have to pay full $40 just to get extra content. Like the first update to SF4 was and the more recent Dragon's Dogma dlc. That's the shit that can get bent.

Ultra is fine.

So what? The content of SSFIV was worth 2/3 of the price of SFIV.

That's one opinion.

:)

#17 Posted by probablytuna (3822 posts) -

I ain't even mad.

#18 Posted by StarvingGamer (8544 posts) -

I'm gonna say what I've said in every thread about this:

There are fighting game players and people who play fighting games. It's pretty easy to tell which is which based on their reactions to this DLC.

#19 Posted by FlipperDesert (2106 posts) -

I got into fighting games late last year and haven't really had any chances to play new people, so I'll just be happy to be able to get online and not lose horribly.

#20 Edited by Baillie (4281 posts) -

Seems fine to me. If you enjoy Street Fighter then this isn't even an argument. You understand what is going on, the rest of you? Wouldn't buy it anyway,

#21 Posted by egg (1469 posts) -

Did any of the SF4 remakes make it so players can check movelists at the same time? (and without having to select their character?)

#22 Edited by ThunderSlash (1945 posts) -

Firstly, and perhaps most importantly: The only people who are angered by this don't even play the game.

I personally know a few people that are mad/annoyed that Capcom is charging for this update. But then again, even though they follow tournaments and such, they only play Street Fighter 4 casually. Heck, they still bring up that SFxT on disc DLC fiasco from time to time (and it is hella annoying).

So basically what @starvinggamer said.

@egg said:

Did any of the SF4 remakes make it so players can check movelists at the same time? (and without having to select their character?)

I am pretty sure that when you open up the movelist menu, you get the option to choose which character's movelist you want to see in version Super and up.

Edit: Also, I'd like to put forward a question: If Capcom had not revise the title of the game after Super, would there be as much complaining as there is now? After all, this stuff is just DLC. Tons of videogames release DLC with little to no complaints.

Super Edit Arcade Edition: I realize that if they had rebalanced the characters as free patches, and had sold the new content as DLC they would most probably get much less flack.

#23 Edited by churrific (485 posts) -

@clonedzero said:

I'm not mad, I don't really care. But shouldn't they be making Street Fighter V? Or is that something thats assumed to be in development for next-gen, with this being something to tide people over till then?

Although I do want a SFV, SFV seems way premature. Every generation of the main branch of SF games should live and breathe for a long period of time (6-10 yrs is the arbitrary # I had in my mind). There's years of legacy/legendary stories behind both SF2 and SF 3. Putting out SFV a mere 4 years after SFIV almost cheapens it for me.

#24 Posted by Winsord (1298 posts) -

Personally I'd be more interested in a SFV than another revision of SFIV (since I don't like IV), but I don't really care much either way. It's nice that they offer the upgrade path instead of only full purchases too. Dragon's Dogma was my 2012 GotY, but I didn't buy Dark Arisen because it would've have been $40 for about $10 worth of content I didn't already have. If this new expansion was full retail only I wouldn't be terribly impressed, but it seems like there's a reasonable amount of content for fans at $15 ($3 a character, even if they are mostly from SFxT, is pretty good). At this point, there doesn't really seem to be any reason to be surprised or upset by this.

#25 Posted by falserelic (5407 posts) -

Personally I don't care, but at the sametime I don't think alot of people would be interested.

#26 Edited by EXTomar (4940 posts) -

I recognized this issue at the start where I had a feeling Super Street Fighter IV Turbo Gamma Something Final "edition" would cost money for a completely redo the balance in game with the same basic features. I wasn't happy then and I'm still not happy now.

I refused to pay or play it then and I'm definitely not paying or playing now because in a few months they'll ask for more money on a game that is rearranged again. Street Fighter 4 (and to a lesser extend BlazBlue) made me abandon fighting games.

#27 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@tennmuerti said:

@sooty said:

@tennmuerti said:

@sooty said:

@hunter5024 said:

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

Exactly. And in the days of SFII didn't it cost like $50 to get the new version? For less added content...

It's completely fine, when there is a $15 DLC option for those that already own the main game.

The problem is when there is no way to only get the DLC for original owners and you have to pay full $40 just to get extra content. Like the first update to SF4 was and the more recent Dragon's Dogma dlc. That's the shit that can get bent.

Ultra is fine.

So what? The content of SSFIV was worth 2/3 of the price of SFIV.

That's one opinion.

:)

I just don't see how people can argue against it, you're getting new characters that make up for half of the character count in the base game, new ultras for everyone and brand new stages, as well as the new online stuff. If people thought it'd only be $15 or so then they are mad, we rarely get lengthy free DLC these days and Patrick's article on Skullgirls shows why SSFIV had to cost so much. Considering those costs, I think it's pretty incredible AE and Ultra only cost $15.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree, aside from Super being a retail release I had no issues with it, in a way it was nice it was on disc because we didn't have to worry about updating all the consoles at the local place I go to play casuals and tournaments. We use the disc releases of AE now but it can be annoying if it's on a new console and we have to scramble to download v2012. It'll be nice to have disc copies of Ultra SFIV so that isn't a concern anymore.

Still, Super should have been a disc AND DLC release, best of both worlds.

@extomar said:

I recognized this issue at the start where I had a feeling Super Street Fighter IV Turbo Gamma Something Final "edition" would cost money for a completely redo the balance in game with the same basic features. I wasn't happy then and I'm still not happy now.

Between 2009 and now, SFIV will have cost you $115 to stay fully up to date (SFIV $60, SSFIV $40, SSFIV AE $15) with every version currently out. If you kept playing the game regularly then that's a pretty solid investment, no?

EA Sports' yearly releases offer less value than this.

Really it comes down to how much you enjoyed SFIV, if you did, you'd have bought it, because the value proposition was solid, it shouldn't have put off people truly digging the game.

@davidwitten22 said:

I don't mind it, and I will still by it, but add me to the list of people that are disappointed that the new characters are just characters they are going to rip out of X Tekken. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to play as Elena, but I think people were expecting something a bit more exciting. The 5th character might be, but we'll see.

I wish it was closer to April so Capcom's April Fool's joke could be that the 5th character for Ultra is Skorpion. That would be perfect.

I'm definitely with you on that, I don't have any interest in Poison, Hugo or Elena. Rolento as a character is pretty cool though, I hope the 5th character isn't from SFxT, it'd be fucking cool if they added Asura in but that was deconfirmed on Twitter.

I mostly just wanted the re-balancing which I expected would be a free update, now that it's part of this $15 deal with new modes and new characters I'm pretty happy about it, even if I have little interest in playing the new characters I'm pleased they'll be there to add further variety to the game.

#28 Posted by mrfluke (5339 posts) -

@baillie said:

Seems fine to me. If you enjoy Street Fighter then this isn't even an argument. You understand what is going on, the rest of you? Wouldn't buy it anyway,

#29 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

You can now buy the full version of Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition for $14.99 on Xbox Live, so that's Street Fighter IV, Super Street Fighter IV and AE rolled into one. Pretty sweet for anyone thinking of jumping in after Evo.

#30 Edited by JamesJeux007 (499 posts) -

I completely agree with you. I mean, I know Capcom has a history of being crass and shitty when it comes to DLC, but I think the way they have been handling the different versions of SF4 have been pretty good. Now all they need to do is not make their SF4 iterations have stupid names. Because those are AWFUL !

#31 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

I completely agree with you. I mean, I know Capcom has a history of being crass and shitty when it comes to DLC, but I think the way they have been handling the different versions of SF4 have been pretty good. Now all they need to do is not make their SF4 iterations have stupid names. Because those are AWFUL !

I was hoping it would be called 'Hyper' instead of 'Ultra' myself. LAME.

#32 Posted by dandead (173 posts) -

@sooty: HYPER would mean a different speed setting like in the old HYPER SF2's which Capcom does not want. The only reason SF2 Hyper Fighting was made in the first place was as a response to all the hacked versions of SF2 that people where enjoying that allowed you to change the speed of the game as well as some other crazy shit.

#33 Posted by egg (1469 posts) -

Firstly, and perhaps most importantly: The only people who are angered by this don't even play the game.

I personally know a few people that are mad/annoyed that Capcom is charging for this update. But then again, even though they follow tournaments and such, they only play Street Fighter 4 casually. Heck, they still bring up that SFxT on disc DLC fiasco from time to time (and it is hella annoying).

So basically what @starvinggamer said.

@egg said:

Did any of the SF4 remakes make it so players can check movelists at the same time? (and without having to select their character?)

I am pretty sure that when you open up the movelist menu, you get the option to choose which character's movelist you want to see in version Super and up.

I specified without having to select their character. Why would you make the player choose the character to look up movelists for when it should be obvious which one they will choose 99.9 percent of the time.

and iirc layers have to take turns doing this even though games like Tekken 4 let both players look simultaneously.

#34 Posted by HerbieBug (4208 posts) -

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

It was not okay back in the 90's and it is not okay now.

#35 Edited by Turtlebird95 (2603 posts) -

I'm not mad, just disappointed. Capcom dropped the ball with the characters and the balances should always be free.

#36 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@herbiebug said:

@hunter5024 said:

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

It was not okay back in the 90's and it is not okay now.

So what's your stance on Fifa and Madden?

Updates to SFIV increase its lifespan more than similarly priced DLC, 2-3 hours of Saints Row for example.

#37 Edited by StarvingGamer (8544 posts) -

@sooty said:

@jamesjeux007 said:

I completely agree with you. I mean, I know Capcom has a history of being crass and shitty when it comes to DLC, but I think the way they have been handling the different versions of SF4 have been pretty good. Now all they need to do is not make their SF4 iterations have stupid names. Because those are AWFUL !

I was hoping it would be called 'Hyper' instead of 'Ultra' myself. LAME.

I dunno, when you think about it, calling it "Ultra" is so obvious I'm surprised I didn't see that as one of the rumors.

@herbiebug said:

@hunter5024 said:

Updating and rereleasing recent games has been standard operating procedure at Capcom for decades, I don't really see why people are upset.

It was not okay back in the 90's and it is not okay now.

How much Street Fighter do you play?

@turtlebird95 said:

the balances should always be free.

And the only time they put out a pure balance change, it was. $15 for five new characters, six new stages, and new modes (?) is a reasonable price.

#38 Posted by Turtlebird95 (2603 posts) -

@starvinggamer: Fifteen dollars is more than reasonable. Hell I'm dropping $40 on the retail version because I miss the game. I'm saying the balances should never be locked behind a paid update. (Unless I'm missing something here)

#39 Edited by Superkenon (1505 posts) -

I'm the most casual fighting game player around, but I'm still pumped for this update. Especially given that I skipped SFxT entirely, so I haven't seen these characters since their original games.

Almost considering buying the full game. I considered getting some of the DLC before, but if it's going to be all packaged with the disc...

#40 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@turtlebird95 said:

@starvinggamer: Fifteen dollars is more than reasonable. Hell I'm dropping $40 on the retail version because I miss the game. I'm saying the balances should never be locked behind a paid update. (Unless I'm missing something here)

It makes more sense to release it as one though, especially for retail. Now tournament runners can just pick up Ultra instead of worrying about having all their consoles running the version that has not only the balance patch downloaded but also the new characters.

Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is a good example of why characters should not be DLC; people are always concerned places won't have Shuma and Jill unlocked, I think that's a fairly big part of why those characters are barely played.

#42 Posted by JJOR64 (19065 posts) -

For somebody who plays this game a lot, I'm mainly looking forward to the re-balance. Sure all the new characters and stages are from SFxT, but I would rather have those characters and stages in the SF4 engine. It will surely spice up this 5 year old game for sure. I'm excited. I want to see Hugo fuck some shit up.

#45 Posted by MHumphreys89 (724 posts) -

I may be wrong but when Capcom first started talking about this upgrade and what fans wanted didn't they claim it was to be free?

#46 Posted by DevourerOfTime (482 posts) -

To those who are angry:

The traditional model for an MMO is paying a fee every month and then being expected to buy an expansion every 18-24 months. Usually this comes out to a ridiculous cost for the player to play a single game and I could see why those who don't play those games would scoff at the price.

But to those who actually play MMOs, they know that they get more than their money's worth of that game every month they play and that an expansion completely changes the game. For example, the typical WoW expansion changes the gameplay experience entirely, no matter how you play. Focuses are shifted from one type of experience to another (maybe hardcore raiding to a bigger balance between PvP & PvE), new story elements and questlines are added to the game, new zones and dungeons are introduced, a new class or race is introduced, etc etc etc. This a lot of new content to the player to experience no matter what experience they're looking for and even though they have to spend $50 every 2 years or so (on top of the $180/year they pay already), they gladly pay this price exchange for the new experience.

While MMO's are multifaceted experiences, fighting games are a very singular experience. No matter if you're playing against the computer, online, or the duder beside you, it comes down to one character beating on the other. It makes even the smallest balance changes to a game significant. Fei Long's rekkas having a smaller hitbox might sound small, but it significantly changes how every single Fei Long player is going to have to play against every other character in the game and vice versa. And when the match up between one character and the other is the entire game, adding 5 new characters to a roster of 39 adds 210 new matchups that need to be experienced, broken down, and evaluated. What's a good anti-air option for Juri against Hugo's jumping drop kick? Is Poison's ex kick special an overhead? Will Makoto's Ultra 1 punish a whiffed Rhino Horn by Elena? Is Rolento going to be as cheap as he was in vanilla Street Fighter x Tekken? The list goes on and on of things to be discovered in the game.

So while the list of changes in Ultra Street Fighter IV may sound dull and boring in comparison to the new zones and new raids of World of Warcraft, this new version of SFIV is just as important than your typical MMO expansion. And fans of the game are more than willing to shell out the $15 to upgrade.

#47 Edited by ArbitraryWater (12101 posts) -

To be honest, I'd much rather play with those characters in a game I still like than ever play SFxT seriously again.

#48 Posted by ThunderSlash (1945 posts) -

@egg: Oh I thought by "selecting your character" you meant "selecting your character in the versus screen." My bad duder.

#49 Posted by OurSin_360 (947 posts) -

Yeah, it's for the hardcore. I have street fighter 4 and that's about it

#50 Edited by Griffinmills (200 posts) -

It is possible you are coming back from a heady, positive experience in the wake of EVO and a general ground swell of in-community popularity and support back to the, "Real world." Whereas SFIV is a hugely popular fighting game and well regarded in the fighting game community, Giant Bomb and other outlets are where the fighting game community is the niche rather than the norm.

Aggressively 'post/yelling' at people for being dumb, mad, ignorant, having unfounded opinions etc. is an unlikely to be a successful tact if you actually want to make some headway convincing folks. I suggest getting into the head space of this more common man and addressing perceived complaints from that angle. Or ignoring it and hanging out with the rest of us, myself included, that are actually stoked for this cool update, at least as an unexpected bit of content for a title that was announced as being "final" two patches ago! :-D