Avatar's Korra was almost changed to become a man or get scrapped but focus group feedback indicated that even young boys were fine and thought she was cool, so they became convinced, financed the project and it became a great success that actually went down in history.
Except it wasn't a great success. It did so poorly on TV that half of Season 3 and the entirety of Season 4 were only available on their website.
@corevi: Success isn't just determined financially. That show is a success no matter how many people ended up watching it online. it's astounding how good that show is. One of my favorites ever....still need to finish season 4 so please don't spoil anything.
creepy Vita games like Monster Monpiece get you on the FBI watchlist, and voting with your vallet doesn't work. Eight year olds and younger are bought GTA5 and worse by their parents.)
What you're not okay with jerking your Vita off in public? This offends the vita sexualists (don't google this) out there
@corevi: Success isn't just determined financially. That show is a success no matter how many people ended up watching it online. it's astounding how good that show is. One of my favorites ever....still need to finish season 4 so please don't spoil anything.
Success is determined financially when talking about a product that cost money to produce. It's a fantastic series but it was not successful.
@corevi: Success isn't just determined financially. That show is a success no matter how many people ended up watching it online. it's astounding how good that show is. One of my favorites ever....still need to finish season 4 so please don't spoil anything.
Success is determined financially when talking about a product that cost money to produce. It's a fantastic series but it was not successful.
Success is determined in many other ways even if it cost money to produce the product. It is a success. It's a success for handling so well the very issues this thread is about. I see what you're saying, if we were in a business meeting and we were all insufferable douchebags than yes, you're right...but we're not...so Legend of Korra is unequivically a huge triumphant success that even when you thought it was cancelled was able to come back with spectacular fashion.
Simply finishing the story in a show with as many barriers as it had is a success story.
Please everyone....seriously....don't spoil a second....I'm scared even talking about it....
Again and again, it isn't a question if the female characters are too cute or sexy but that all too often in a game all of the characters are too cute and too sexy. The real issue is really about variety where we don't need ugly but a better range including "just plain". Fixating on the big muscles and big chests in a game like Gears of War misses the point that it has the same problem too.
And then there is this:
http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/
The problem with that comic is that it's just that person's (and maybe some other people's) opinion on what they find attractive.
There are women who find a muscular superhero attractive. There are women who would probably go for a bishounen-looking type of superhero. The same holds true for what men find attractive in women. What artists tend to go for is the idealized look that they find attractive or cool looking. It just so happens that in many of those cases, those designs appeal to most of their audience.
I think superheroes are a bad example though. While there are cerebral types of superheroes, the majority of them are physical, which lends itself to muscular and fit looking characters. My power fantasy isn't a muscular Batman, it would be a geekier Batman.
Well that is the point of irony isn't it? :) Blanket statements about one gender wanting something is still a blanket statement. I just find it a funny comic about the fallacy of that style of argument when people scream "women want men like that too!!"
@spraynardtatum: Watch it at your earliest convenience. It's by far the best season.
@corevi: You couldn't possibly understand how excited I am for it.
@spraynardtatum: I have no idea how people go around saying Korra is a good show.
As a kids show it fails miserably, I've mentioned this somewhere else too but all my cousins to whom I introduced the original, finished it on their own. And to whom I subsequently force fed Korra Season 1 did not watch any of the rest of the episodes on their own(or if they did they were disappointed). The financial failure should be enough proof that the intended audience did not like it.
The problem is people focus too much on "female protagonist" and "homosexual themes" and ignore how terrible the show is. They have no clear goal like the original(first episode establishes that the last episode will be defeating the fire lord). Element development, each season Aang develops an element gradually, in contrast Korra just randomly learns all 4 to an unspecified level with barely any character development in the process. Aang journeys the world meets and inspires people who later help him on his journey, Korra is just in a few towns hanging out with the nobility and worrying about her social life(okay she spends 2-3 episodes in a forest in the last season). As soon as any kind of opposition gets traction within the next 3-4 episodes they are nailed back down. They try and do a thing with idealism in each season but the level to which they discuss each theme is so shallow and generic that it might as well be that the villains come and say "I am the third villain and I have ideology 3".
Its like people don't even remember how much character the older characters had. Aang was curious and playful and socially awkward, most of his development occurs with mastering the elements and understanding why people do what they do. Sokka starts out as awkward and without much skill and gradually develops his sword technique and gadgetry until he becomes a confident individual by the end of it. Katara is the serious in the group who tries to keep things together, you see her get jealous of Aang's abilities with the elements at times but she pushes through and learns blood bending on an even higher level than he does. I don't even need to mention Zuko who is probably one of the best developed characters in the history of animation.
There is NO parallel to this kind of character development in Korra. You can barely describe most characters as anything other than "nice" and "heroic". Do that red letter media test on them, describe them without making reference to their role in the story.
It really annoys me that people get misdirected by political correctness, and can't seem to judge things objectively.
@gamefreak9: You're dead to me.
@gamefreak9: Or maybe I genuinely really like the show and the characters and it has nothing to do with political correctness?
Taste is subjective.
I think people trying to make the point that games are more or less filled with sexism than movies, music, etc. is ridiculous. It's like they claim to see and play every movie, music track, and game. Even just narrowing it down to what's popular is too broad of a selection. For every movie with a strong female lead you can name off-hand, I can probably find a game and a musical artist to match. You can talk about improving a medium without pretending to know that it's the bottom of the barrel.
@corevi: Not disagreeing that taste is subjective. But as you accumulate films under your belt, you will inevitably start seeing patterns and be able to recognize if something is original(and hence not generic) from an experienced point of view.
If its all about taste then that implies there is no such thing as a good game or a good film or good food, just things I like or don't like. If experience plays a factor it is obviously not just about taste but also about knowledge. Obviously not everyone of the same experience will like it equally but some things that a layman might enjoy, he only does so because he does not have the rigor to put it into context.
When it comes to art its all about the effectiveness of conveying your message. Some people may not like the message but if they are rigorous and objective they can still identify if it has been well delivered.
@gamefreak9: So now you're insulting me for liking it?
@corevi: Was that an insult? If you count "I've probably seen more films than you" as an insult then yes but I don't think so. You enjoyed it and congrats to you.
@corevi: Was that an insult? If you count "I've probably seen more films than you" as an insult then yes but I don't think so. You enjoyed it and congrats to you.
It sure is patronizing. What are you saying? We like it because we aren't as versed as you? Psshhhh.
I repeat. Psssshhhhhhhhhhh.
What happened to this thread, even? Just more evidence that Legend of Korra poisons everything it touches.
Again and again, it isn't a question if the female characters are too cute or sexy but that all too often in a game all of the characters are too cute and too sexy. The real issue is really about variety where we don't need ugly but a better range including "just plain". Fixating on the big muscles and big chests in a game like Gears of War misses the point that it has the same problem too.
And then there is this:
http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/
The problem with that comic is that it's just that person's (and maybe some other people's) opinion on what they find attractive.
There are women who find a muscular superhero attractive. There are women who would probably go for a bishounen-looking type of superhero. The same holds true for what men find attractive in women. What artists tend to go for is the idealized look that they find attractive or cool looking. It just so happens that in many of those cases, those designs appeal to most of their audience.
I think superheroes are a bad example though. While there are cerebral types of superheroes, the majority of them are physical, which lends itself to muscular and fit looking characters. My power fantasy isn't a muscular Batman, it would be a geekier Batman.
Well that is the point of irony isn't it? :) Blanket statements about one gender wanting something is still a blanket statement. I just find it a funny comic about the fallacy of that style of argument when people scream "women want men like that too!!"
Well, the argument technically isn't wrong; again, people just keep forgetting to add "Some" to their statements. Some women want burly muscle men. Some women want thin pretty guys. Some women like older men, some like younger men, some like hairy guys, others prefer them clean shaven, some people like calm men, some like aggressive men... you get the idea. And then, on top of that, some women like burly muscly women; some favor thin women, curvy gals... you can go on forever. And don't forget to factor in all of the dudes who like various flavors of dudes dudes, along with the guys who like ladies; then you've got the wide range of people who like things that aren't even human.
People seem to have a real problem understanding and accepting that people like different things. Just because someone rolls their eyes at a heavily muscled male figure doesn't mean there aren't a ten-thousand people who find it appealing. Same goes for a busty female; the "Male Gaze" itself loses some amount of meaning when you stop pretending that men are the only ones who enjoy an attractive woman... and fortunately, there's a decent variety out there in games, film, comics, art, and just about everywhere else to suit people's tastes. There's an impressive amount of art centered around homoerotic Transformers. Embrace the future of everyone getting what they like.
@spraynardtatum: I am probably more snob about films than anything else :)
@spraynardtatum: I am probably more snob about films than anything else :)
I've seen a fuuuuuuuck ton of movies in my lifetime. You're not talking to some oaf that doesn't appreciate Kurosawa or Paul Thomas Anderson or thinks that Fellini is a type of noodle. Your passion for something that I have immense passion for doesn't go unappreciated, however; you don't know dick about why I like Korra.
PSSSSHHHHHHH I SAY!
Things like a lack of female protagonists and general hyper sexualization of women are problems in the grand scale. It's when people start being super specific with these critiques that it bothers me. Why isn't the protagonist in the new Assassin's Creed female? Because he's not. How many hours does Bioware devote to modelling women's butts? A whole lot and I don't care.
@spraynardtatum: hey those are some good name drops! Kurosawa! Check me out!
I threw that shit before I walked in the room!
@spraynardtatum: I have no idea how people go around saying Korra is a good show.
As a kids show it fails miserably, I've mentioned this somewhere else too but all my cousins to whom I introduced the original, finished it on their own. And to whom I subsequently force fed Korra Season 1 did not watch any of the rest of the episodes on their own(or if they did they were disappointed). The financial failure should be enough proof that the intended audience did not like it.
The problem is people focus too much on "female protagonist" and "homosexual themes" and ignore how terrible the show is. They have no clear goal like the original(first episode establishes that the last episode will be defeating the fire lord). Element development, each season Aang develops an element gradually, in contrast Korra just randomly learns all 4 to an unspecified level with barely any character development in the process. Aang journeys the world meets and inspires people who later help him on his journey, Korra is just in a few towns hanging out with the nobility and worrying about her social life(okay she spends 2-3 episodes in a forest in the last season). As soon as any kind of opposition gets traction within the next 3-4 episodes they are nailed back down. They try and do a thing with idealism in each season but the level to which they discuss each theme is so shallow and generic that it might as well be that the villains come and say "I am the third villain and I have ideology 3".
Its like people don't even remember how much character the older characters had. Aang was curious and playful and socially awkward, most of his development occurs with mastering the elements and understanding why people do what they do. Sokka starts out as awkward and without much skill and gradually develops his sword technique and gadgetry until he becomes a confident individual by the end of it. Katara is the serious in the group who tries to keep things together, you see her get jealous of Aang's abilities with the elements at times but she pushes through and learns blood bending on an even higher level than he does. I don't even need to mention Zuko who is probably one of the best developed characters in the history of animation.
There is NO parallel to this kind of character development in Korra. You can barely describe most characters as anything other than "nice" and "heroic". Do that red letter media test on them, describe them without making reference to their role in the story.
It really annoys me that people get misdirected by political correctness, and can't seem to judge things objectively.
I've also called you out on your BS argument elsewhere. Just because your test group of family members failed to enjoy the show means squat diddly when there are literally MILLIONS of kids who did enjoy the show. Even aside from that, Korra was intended as a sequel for the fans of the Last Airbender, most of whom had by the time its release grown up a considerable amount. And the thing is, we already went through the journey of the Avatar mastering the different elements with Aang, and to do it again with Korra would have been unnecessary. In fact by making her already adept at three of the four main elements as even a young child was a great way of informing her character traits and personality as well as highlighting the difference between her and Aang. As individual villains, Amon, Unalaq, Zaheer and Kuvira were infinitely better characters then Ozai. Ozai was a great threatening force but lacked much in the way of personality and served the purpose of being the thing that drove the story forward, giving the writers time to establish what the ATLAB world was like. But that stuff has all been established by the time of Korra, and instead the focus becomes writing great stories in this universe. Each villain reflected on Korra and the new world in an interesting way. Amon wanted equality, Unalaq wanted the return of the spirits, Zaheer wanted chaos and Kuvira wanted order.
The reason that Aang may seem more likable is that he was a reluctant hero and an underdog, and those stories work really well, especially if it is in the service of building a new world. Korra however is brash and needed to be torn down and taught humility. That process is a lot more complex and required a lot more of a subtle story telling method which caters to older people.
EA put out a stat sheet a couple years ago saying a bunch of stats for Mass Effect 3. One of the stats was 4% of players shot Mordin, another one was, 86% of players played as the Male Shepherd.
50% of total gamers might be women but I don't know if the same can be said about action games. I think that stat includes Facebook games and stuff. You may know a lot of women that may like playing an action-shooter as an unattractive female, but I still doubt they would make up a significant player base for such a game.
What I want is, more women enemies! Example, in Batman it was awesome you could also play as Catwoman, but all the enemies in that game are men! Same with Tomb Raider, and many other games, all the enemies are men! That is not realistic imo.
I want more women enemies like in Saints Row! Even in GTA all the police and gangsters are men!
If there are to be more women protagonists, there must also be more women enemies imo.
That can really backfire as well, though. God of War: Ascension ran into this with the trophy controversy. Part of the reason that people had such a problem with that scene was that he was attacking female enemies. Never mind the fact that they were horrible monsters, but some still looked at it as a form of abuse. Men attacking women in a game too often invokes ideas of abuse, of men taking advantage of women in the media. Not saying it should be that way, I'm just saying that it seems like that's how it goes so far.
make it stop
People go on about this shit too much and ignore all the male characters that are exactly the same as the female ones they complain about. Does every woman have big tits? Does every man have a perfect figure and rock hard abs? NO. But who cares. It's a GAME.
There's always going to be games that play to this stereotype and there's also always going to be ones that don't. Not everything has to conform to you to ensure you are not offended.
It's only sexist if it's a woman, that's the impression most people that complain about this give. I find it really annoying, especially when it's guys who jump on the complaining bandwagon, I can understand females being biased and sometimes forgetting the perfect male characters games are filled with but when guys do it, it's especially ignorant and stupid. Unless all you guys think everyone looks like Nathan Drake.
And why does nobody go after the movie industry that has been doing this exact thing for decades? Hmm?
@privodotmenit said:
And why does nobody go after the movie industry that has been doing this exact thing for decades? Hmm?
Feminist film criticism has been around for decades.
@privodotmenit said:
And why does nobody go after the movie industry that has been doing this exact thing for decades? Hmm?
Feminist film criticism has been around for decades.
Maybe it's because I don't hang around on movie forums but I seem to never hear of it.
How so? If we're ignoring Elfness or lack of, it's a pretty typical build for a healthy, very physically active early 20s-ish female.
Sera is a weird case to be discussing though in that she isn't supposed to be naturally ugly especially; she just chooses to look that way / doesn't care enough to make herself look pretty. It's justified as part of her character. I'd say overall it's pretty hard to criticise Dragon Age when it comes to diversity of the cast. There are pretty characters and ugly characters and Cassandra who is the most perfect woman to ever grace gaming.
It was suggested that she had an "average" build. She's not average because she's not average. What you describe is not the average female body type. What that picture shows is not the average female body type. Beyond that, I don't have anything else to say about DA:I; I haven't even played it. Except maybe that her "not caring enough to make herself look pretty" sounds like an awful contrivance in light of the fact that a Google image search shows her almost always wearing boob-accentuating, skin tight clothing. It's revealing when the "ugly" character who "doesn't care about her looks" is still stacked and likes to show it off.
@privodotmenit said:
And why does nobody go after the movie industry that has been doing this exact thing for decades? Hmm?
Feminist film criticism has been around for decades.
Maybe it's because I don't hang around on movie forums but I seem to never hear of it.
The Bechdel Test while flawed is the best example of that and has been around for 30 years.
And what exactly gives you the right to judge just how sexy/ugly marcus and bayonetta are?
You're using your own subjectivity to argue the point. Try again.
creepy Vita games like Monster Monpiece get you on the FBI watchlist, and voting with your vallet doesn't work. Eight year olds and younger are bought GTA5 and worse by their parents.)
What you're not okay with jerking your Vita off in public? This offends the vita sexualists (don't google this) out there
Damn that video....
Doesn't help that I might have a hand fetish.
And what exactly gives you the right to judge just how sexy/ugly marcus and bayonetta are?
You're using your own subjectivity to argue the point. Try again.
Well Bayonetta is designed to be sexy. Both the character and the game itself.
@spraynardtatum: I have no idea how people go around saying Korra is a good show.
As a kids show it fails miserably, I've mentioned this somewhere else too but all my cousins to whom I introduced the original, finished it on their own. And to whom I subsequently force fed Korra Season 1 did not watch any of the rest of the episodes on their own(or if they did they were disappointed). The financial failure should be enough proof that the intended audience did not like it.
The problem is people focus too much on "female protagonist" and "homosexual themes" and ignore how terrible the show is. They have no clear goal like the original(first episode establishes that the last episode will be defeating the fire lord). Element development, each season Aang develops an element gradually, in contrast Korra just randomly learns all 4 to an unspecified level with barely any character development in the process. Aang journeys the world meets and inspires people who later help him on his journey, Korra is just in a few towns hanging out with the nobility and worrying about her social life(okay she spends 2-3 episodes in a forest in the last season). As soon as any kind of opposition gets traction within the next 3-4 episodes they are nailed back down. They try and do a thing with idealism in each season but the level to which they discuss each theme is so shallow and generic that it might as well be that the villains come and say "I am the third villain and I have ideology 3".
Its like people don't even remember how much character the older characters had. Aang was curious and playful and socially awkward, most of his development occurs with mastering the elements and understanding why people do what they do. Sokka starts out as awkward and without much skill and gradually develops his sword technique and gadgetry until he becomes a confident individual by the end of it. Katara is the serious in the group who tries to keep things together, you see her get jealous of Aang's abilities with the elements at times but she pushes through and learns blood bending on an even higher level than he does. I don't even need to mention Zuko who is probably one of the best developed characters in the history of animation.
There is NO parallel to this kind of character development in Korra. You can barely describe most characters as anything other than "nice" and "heroic". Do that red letter media test on them, describe them without making reference to their role in the story.
It really annoys me that people get misdirected by political correctness, and can't seem to judge things objectively.
I've also called you out on your BS argument elsewhere. Just because your test group of family members failed to enjoy the show means squat diddly when there are literally MILLIONS of kids who did enjoy the show. Even aside from that, Korra was intended as a sequel for the fans of the Last Airbender, most of whom had by the time its release grown up a considerable amount. And the thing is, we already went through the journey of the Avatar mastering the different elements with Aang, and to do it again with Korra would have been unnecessary. In fact by making her already adept at three of the four main elements as even a young child was a great way of informing her character traits and personality as well as highlighting the difference between her and Aang. As individual villains, Amon, Unalaq, Zaheer and Kuvira were infinitely better characters then Ozai. Ozai was a great threatening force but lacked much in the way of personality and served the purpose of being the thing that drove the story forward, giving the writers time to establish what the ATLAB world was like. But that stuff has all been established by the time of Korra, and instead the focus becomes writing great stories in this universe. Each villain reflected on Korra and the new world in an interesting way. Amon wanted equality, Unalaq wanted the return of the spirits, Zaheer wanted chaos and Kuvira wanted order.
The reason that Aang may seem more likable is that he was a reluctant hero and an underdog, and those stories work really well, especially if it is in the service of building a new world. Korra however is brash and needed to be torn down and taught humility. That process is a lot more complex and required a lot more of a subtle story telling method which caters to older people.
So it was intended as a sequel... therefore it should be trying to hit the same points? Then why does it not? We at least agree that it fails at the aspects that made the first one great so intended as a sequel is not a good argument.
No mastering the elements can be done in another way, its a new world, you can make all sorts of training regimes to make it seem like a struggle in a unique way to this character(not just wooden puppets). Pretty much all of the conversations that were not expository were teenage girl not feeling special enough dialogue.
Complex? Brash? She was just arrogant the whole way through, and when she is not arrogant she is bland. I don't disagree that the process is more complex but if the writer is not competent enough to tackle then it should not be done so. Pretending ex post that it was hard so its okay is nothing. Making your characters like-able is a must.
Like I said the villains in no way had insight into the ideologies. Just as an example, what do we get about chaos? We get like a little speech about how the queen and president suck and how he was in prison and discovered he wanted to bring chaos...I would say its impossible to say what their ideologies were if they didn't outright say it because their backgrounds and even explanations sound unconvincing. We got no insight as to why each idea was misguided. Ozai was not meant to be anything but the culmination of evil and yes it kept driving the story forward, he doesn't have to have character because its implied he is the opposite of Aang. Lets try something, intelligent, efficient, charismatic, short-tempered, this he or she is righteous, they care for their own people, who did I describe? Spoiler: Its every villain in the legend of Korra.
At least Ozai had interesting dialogue, for instance, he tells Zuko that Azula was born lucky but he was lucky to be born. He has a nice clear selfish goal of world domination, he pressured Azula a lot to be perfect and she kind of turns into a perfectionist. Ozai had an interesting and realistic view of good and evil and strength and weakness which can philosophically stand on its own two feet and indeed has historically, a reference to Louis 14, "I am the state", the divine right to rule.
What about all the other characters in Korra, how are you going to seriously say they are not bland? Its just checklist stuff. They started out as checklists in the original but at least they developed into something more, in this case, they all end as bland as they started. When you are imagining them don't describe to yourself what they did in the series, just describe their style, maybe that scientist guy(forgot his name) has a style of his own but that's about it.
I still find arguments like this a bit ridiculous. It's human nature to see females as the fairer sex. They always have been and they always will be. There is difference between the masculinity of men and the femininity of women, and in their idealized forms, they will not be presented the same. Sure we live in an era now where ideas of gender identity are always being questioned, but there is a simple beauty in how games strive to idealize both their male and female protagonists. Curves should be celebrated and muscles appreciated. This idea that men and women shouldn't be portrayed differently is crazy. Male characters are just as cut and perfect looking as female characters. Even Marcus Fenix, whom you refer to as an ugly dude isn't really that ugly in the context of that world. He's battle worn and scarred, but good looking when compared to his peers.
"Human nature" has to be the newest cop out way of saying "It has always been like this. Don't question it". It turns out that there are many more cultures than just the western English-speaking world, and as expected, they have very different ways of looking at the human body and "beauty". That description that you are going with is just the western perspective that the media powerhouses have imposed on the world.
Misrepresentation of beauty creates false standards and can greatly affect, psychologically-speaking, the people that are born in that culture, thanks to social conditioning. Beauty isn't binary, and it is as subjective as it can get.
Here are some links with more information:
https://culturalbeauty.wordpress.com/
http://allwomenstalk.com/8-different-ideas-of-beauty-around-the-world
http://www.uloop.com/news/view.php/127922/Popular-Beauty-Standards-In-Other-Cultur
http://acongruentman.com/warning-social-conditioning-dark-side/
@demokk: Per culture, heuristics do have objective views on beauty i've seen lots of studies on it that seem hard to locate but I found this: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/201312/the-attractiveness-average-and-familiar-faces
@spraynardtatum: I have no idea how people go around saying Korra is a good show.
As a kids show it fails miserably, I've mentioned this somewhere else too but all my cousins to whom I introduced the original, finished it on their own. And to whom I subsequently force fed Korra Season 1 did not watch any of the rest of the episodes on their own(or if they did they were disappointed). The financial failure should be enough proof that the intended audience did not like it.
The problem is people focus too much on "female protagonist" and "homosexual themes" and ignore how terrible the show is. They have no clear goal like the original(first episode establishes that the last episode will be defeating the fire lord). Element development, each season Aang develops an element gradually, in contrast Korra just randomly learns all 4 to an unspecified level with barely any character development in the process. Aang journeys the world meets and inspires people who later help him on his journey, Korra is just in a few towns hanging out with the nobility and worrying about her social life(okay she spends 2-3 episodes in a forest in the last season). As soon as any kind of opposition gets traction within the next 3-4 episodes they are nailed back down. They try and do a thing with idealism in each season but the level to which they discuss each theme is so shallow and generic that it might as well be that the villains come and say "I am the third villain and I have ideology 3".
Its like people don't even remember how much character the older characters had. Aang was curious and playful and socially awkward, most of his development occurs with mastering the elements and understanding why people do what they do. Sokka starts out as awkward and without much skill and gradually develops his sword technique and gadgetry until he becomes a confident individual by the end of it. Katara is the serious in the group who tries to keep things together, you see her get jealous of Aang's abilities with the elements at times but she pushes through and learns blood bending on an even higher level than he does. I don't even need to mention Zuko who is probably one of the best developed characters in the history of animation.
There is NO parallel to this kind of character development in Korra. You can barely describe most characters as anything other than "nice" and "heroic". Do that red letter media test on them, describe them without making reference to their role in the story.
It really annoys me that people get misdirected by political correctness, and can't seem to judge things objectively.
I've also called you out on your BS argument elsewhere. Just because your test group of family members failed to enjoy the show means squat diddly when there are literally MILLIONS of kids who did enjoy the show. Even aside from that, Korra was intended as a sequel for the fans of the Last Airbender, most of whom had by the time its release grown up a considerable amount. And the thing is, we already went through the journey of the Avatar mastering the different elements with Aang, and to do it again with Korra would have been unnecessary. In fact by making her already adept at three of the four main elements as even a young child was a great way of informing her character traits and personality as well as highlighting the difference between her and Aang. As individual villains, Amon, Unalaq, Zaheer and Kuvira were infinitely better characters then Ozai. Ozai was a great threatening force but lacked much in the way of personality and served the purpose of being the thing that drove the story forward, giving the writers time to establish what the ATLAB world was like. But that stuff has all been established by the time of Korra, and instead the focus becomes writing great stories in this universe. Each villain reflected on Korra and the new world in an interesting way. Amon wanted equality, Unalaq wanted the return of the spirits, Zaheer wanted chaos and Kuvira wanted order.
The reason that Aang may seem more likable is that he was a reluctant hero and an underdog, and those stories work really well, especially if it is in the service of building a new world. Korra however is brash and needed to be torn down and taught humility. That process is a lot more complex and required a lot more of a subtle story telling method which caters to older people.
So it was intended as a sequel... therefore it should be trying to hit the same points? Then why does it not?
I literally said the exact opposite of what you got out of it. I don't understand how you could misunderstand what I said so badly in the first line of your retort.
I still find arguments like this a bit ridiculous. It's human nature to see females as the fairer sex. They always have been and they always will be. There is difference between the masculinity of men and the femininity of women, and in their idealized forms, they will not be presented the same. Sure we live in an era now where ideas of gender identity are always being questioned, but there is a simple beauty in how games strive to idealize both their male and female protagonists. Curves should be celebrated and muscles appreciated. This idea that men and women shouldn't be portrayed differently is crazy. Male characters are just as cut and perfect looking as female characters. Even Marcus Fenix, whom you refer to as an ugly dude isn't really that ugly in the context of that world. He's battle worn and scarred, but good looking when compared to his peers.
"Human nature" has to be the newest cop out way of saying "It has always been like this. Don't question it". It turns out that there are many more cultures than just the western English-speaking world, and as expected, they have very different ways of looking at the human body and "beauty". That description that you are going with is just the western perspective that the media powerhouses have imposed on the world.
That's some hot BS. The expectations and standards of what is considered beautiful vary from place to place, but that doesn't mean that in any of those places, women haven't always been considered the fairer sex. Go back and look at art from any culture from most any period of recorded history and compare the representation of women to those of men.
@gamefreak9: Symmetry and such are abstract concepts that can be applied to practically every body type, race, and gender. It does not limit beauty to the very specific and stereotyped way that media tends to represent men and women.
"This study is a nice demonstration of the influence of familiarity on judgments. We are wired to prefer familiar things to unfamiliar ones. For example, the mere exposure effect demonstrates that seeing something even once makes it more desirable than something that has never been seen before."
Familiarity goes hand in hand with social conditioning, and social conditioning is specific to each culture. There is barely any objectivity to it.
What would be the ''verb set'' in a female targeted AAA game? Sure, games don't have the same amount of products targeted at women as, let's say movies, but in other mediums, products targeted at women are dramas, comedies, romance stories and stuff like that. Those are much, much harder to codify into a game on a grand scale than regular power fantasies.
That's why games targeted at women are more in the hidden object, adventure, visual novel and puzzle genre. We just don't know how to make a big drama or a big romance story in video game form. Is that even possible or viable?
@liquidprince: So... when you said "it was intended as a sequel"you meant... that it wasn't intended as a sequel? Intended as a sequel implies that you are doing fan service. If you want to try something new, you don't make a sequel.
@gamefreak9 said:
@spraynardtatum: hey those are some good name drops! Kurosawa! Check me out!
I threw that shit before I walked in the room!
"I shoulda known you'd be behind this, Fiendish Dr. Wu. Your knowledge of scientific biological transmogrification is only outmatched by your zest for kung-fu treachery!"
That's society's real problem, right there. Not enough Black Dynamite video games.
@pyrodactyl: If you don't consider those 4 genres games then no since every other genre inherently involves combat while those types of stories inherently don't. I guess the best example that it could work is Catherine? Though that's still a puzzle adventure game.
@demokk: Some of the failure of today's neomania is that you just want to change the old with the new. But what evolutionary biology teaches you is that what appears to be senseless sometimes does have a purpose, but its not the objective of the wiring to inform you as to what that is. For instance the affinity to like curves or big breasts on a woman is a useful heuristic because they have nurturing signals which increase your chance to successfully procreate, its not that its moral or immoral, its that it has to exist by definition. Of course some of these heuristics are manipulated today(think breast implants or body building). I don't disagree that there is social conditioning, but its because social conditioning has a purpose of its own in reproductive success. If you pick somebody who society deems beautiful, your own child will be more likely to be beautiful by societies standards and hence more likely to have a mate. The point is that these things are part of nature and we can't really stop it anymore than we can stop humanity from being a social species.
@corevi: Read my post again. I wrote AAA games and big games. Just responding to the OP's concerns
"How is it that half of the gaming populace isn't getting their fair share of games that are made with them in mind?"
Women do not make up half the gaming market; there are more male gamers than female. This fact makes it the safer decision to just make male protagonists.
@liquidprince: "Recorded history" isn't all there is, it is just what was dominant at the time. Not to mention that there are hundreds, if not thousands of different cultures right now. And some of them happen to be matriarchal. Another link.
Not every culture finds the same features attractive, and even in western culture, most of the people are not even close to the exaggerated ideal of beauty that we see in media.
@gamefreak9: Evolution isn't just biological, there is also cultural, spiritual, and psychological evolution; but still, that doesn't change the fact that different cultures have very different standards of beauty and role models. And there is no reason why an international product such as a game or a movie can't experiment a little and be more diverse.
Can't help but giggle at the whole misinterpretation of desiring better gender representation in video games as an industry mandate to include more playable "ugly characters."
I think some people are thinking way too linearly. Video games "aimed at women" isn't really the goal. Stuff exclusively for a gender is dumb, and is an old mindset to have in this day and age. Having a product which isn't so aggressively targeted to one gender is a goal people should strive for. That doesn't mean it should pander and appeal to literally every diverse person and culture on this planet, but it should stop being so one sided. Thanks to independent games this is becoming more of a reality.
With film you have a range of media with an intended audience, a general audience, primarily male, primarily female, families, children, etc. Video games don't really have that, they've always been one sided or become more one sided over the decades. So it should really become more general and bring more people in before expanding into exclusive genres, because the way video games are now, at least bigger budget ones, is rather exclusionary.
I'm not going to say all video games are going in the wrong direction, they're getting way better. It's way better than the PS2 era for sure, but there's work to be done. I just don't feel a medium should be so exclusionary towards anybody at all, women, men, anyone.
If men and women are equal why should it matter what gender a character or player is. I've never cared what gender my character is in a game and I don't feel bummed when I have to play as a woman in a game. Some of my favorite games feature a female protagonist (Syberia, Transistor, Metroid, The Longest Journey, Portal, Aquaria, Mirror's Edge, Beyond Good & Evil, Bayonetta, Alien Isolation).
A lot of people didn't seem to really read my post, which is fine. I guess it was longer than it needed to be. To refute some of the most common things people have said that I'm just like, "Umm...what?" let me recap:
God forbid I think it's a tad unfair that men and women don't have an equal amount of games made with them in mind and with a similar amount of time, effort, and money thrown into them. Not even perfectly equal, just at least vaguely comparable. How is this event an argument? I'm not saying it's gonna happen soon, or that I'm naive enough to think developers are going to take the risks I propose until they're sure a large enough audience will be receptive. I'm just venting frustrations with the current climate. Some of you seem to really have a problem with that, which is confusing to me. What exactly are you fighting for, or against? As I said, I don't think the games you already like should be taken away, or politically corrected up, or that anybody is wrong for liking them. I'm just saying that there are other games that should exist alongside them that don't, because the female perspective simply isn't valued at the same level. Hopefully this will change with time as more women make games. Trends suggest it will, but you can't be mad at people for being frustrated with the long wait.
Here's the problem that I guess I failed to really hit before, which is that yes obviously games like AC sell more than Gone Home. Is that because fewer women play games? Some of you seem to think so, but statistics say otherwise. Who am I to believe? An individual, or that 48% statistic? I think I'll stick with the statistic for now. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it definitely seems to me that men are far less accepting of a female perspective than a woman is of a male perspective. Women will buy AC because they love games, and no female protagonist or not it's still fun for them and it's better than not playing anything, or only playing indie titles because of some dumb sociopolitical stuff. It's something worth discussing, but not boycotting over, at least for most. Men, on the other hand, generally don't do the same thing to the same degree for games that come from a female perspective. There's no support, and often backlash. Because of that, of course Ubisoft is going to keep it a male. Changing it would probably hit sales, and keeping it the same won't, even if the most vocal feminists cry foul about it.That's the smart financial move. It still sucks though.
"How is it that half of the gaming populace isn't getting their fair share of games that are made with them in mind?"
Women do not make up half the gaming market; there are more male gamers than female. This fact makes it the safer decision to just make male protagonists.
If women were half the gaming market, you might wonder why a company would want to change the things that presumably had already worked to make it such an even split. If they're less than half the gaming market, you then might wonder why a company would try to appeal to a minority demographic.
Either way, it doesn't fucking matter. Fuck demographics. I want to see more games with more types of characters and more sorts of stories. Video games as a creative medium should continue to expand in all directions.
Lamenting over what's "fair", or reinforcing the lowest common denominator driving creative decisions, is just silly.
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