#1 Posted by Gonmog (602 posts) -

With the huge outrage that came from the ending of ME3, and me just going through MGS2 again, I was strongly reminded of some of the stuff that came out with MGS2.

Spoilers i guess.....

For main stream ads, there was never a clue that you would NOT be playing Soild Snake. And when Raiden was the main playable char for most of the the game it angered a lot of people.

I wonder, if it happen now, would there be BBB reports? Would we be seeing the same crap that came from the ending of ME3?

I think if it came out now, it would be larger then ME3.

On a side note....i am loving the HD collection on the vita. Awesome games even 10 years later lol.

#2 Posted by BulletproofMonk (2734 posts) -

I will never understand why people got mad about the Raiden stuff. The story in that game is fucking bonkers. I love it.

#3 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

Nothing in MGS2 is remotely as bad as the original endings of ME3. The extended cut ones aren't much better, especially the bad slideshows.

and ME3 was just a worse game than ME2 and further watered down in some elements (conversation choices, 'exploration'), where as MGS2 did improve on the gameplay of the first significantly, I can take or leave Raiden though.

Still think Twin Snakes is the best MGS game, even if you don't like the re-recorded voice acting it was a pretty good remake.

#4 Posted by ERoBB (159 posts) -

I actually loved interacting with Snake from a new perspective. We got to see Snake as a full character, who had his chance to be mysterious and badass. It's the reason Han Solo is so iconic, because in smaller doses, everything he does and says has more of an impact. I think it's a bold approach, that some franchises could use. I'd like to play a Halo game grounded in reality, where you're a soldier in the war, and during battles, Master Chief shows up to turn the tide, and you can appreciate the character from a distance.

#5 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@Sooty said:

Nothing in MGS2 is remotely as bad as the original endings of ME3. The extended cut ones aren't much better, especially the bad slideshows.

and ME3 was just a worse game than ME2 and further watered down in some elements (conversation choices, 'exploration'), where as MGS2 did improve on the gameplay of the first significantly, I can take or leave Raiden though.

Still think Twin Snakes is the best MGS game, even if you don't like the re-recorded voice acting it was a pretty good remake.

Snake jumps on top of a missile, backflips off of it and fires a missile at a helicopter... There is a reason why I don't like Twin Snakes... it is just to fucking insane in terms of cutscene work for WORDS to describe how batshit insane it all is.

#6 Posted by believer258 (12216 posts) -

I haven't played MGS2, but everything about ME3 is disappointing to me. Note that I am not saying it's downright bad, but my only thought upon finishing it was "All right, I'm going to go get a Pepsi and put something else in".

The finale to an epic series that's been a huge part of this console generation should not get that reaction. It should make me look back and say "Damn, I'm glad I played that" or " Shit, what the hell is this series so popular for?" It's not supposed to leave almost no mark on me whatsoever. I remember the game, fine, but what I remember are bland shootouts with bland enemies and overwrought, underdone "drama", and on top of all that the writing comes across as something written by a competent but utterly inexperienced sixteen year old.

Did Metal Gear Solid elicit that same reaction on matters other than Raiden?

#7 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@believer258 said:

I haven't played MGS2, but everything about ME3 is disappointing to me. Note that I am not saying it's downright bad, but my only thought upon finishing it was "All right, I'm going to go get a Pepsi and put something else in".

The finale to an epic series that's been a huge part of this console generation should not get that reaction. It should make me look back and say "Damn, I'm glad I played that" or " Shit, what the hell is this series so popular for?" It's not supposed to leave almost no mark on me whatsoever. I remember the game, fine, but what I remember are bland shootouts with bland enemies and overwrought, underdone "drama", and on top of all that the writing comes across as something written by a competent but utterly inexperienced sixteen year old.

Did Metal Gear Solid elicit that same reaction on matters other than Raiden?

MGS never got that reaction other than Raiden. Well... other than the insanity known as Twin Snakes anyway, Here, watch this just so I can prove how fucking insane it is!

Go to 8:05 just to see this insanity.

Instead of jumping the shark, the remake made it backflip the missile and launch one back!

#8 Edited by Dylabaloo (1549 posts) -

Metal Gear Solid 2 was my first Metal Gear so I never had a problem with Raiden.

#9 Posted by ddensel (388 posts) -

I seem to recall people not being pleased that Revolver Ocelot's mind was taken over by Liquid Snake's right arm.

Yeah people bitched a ton about Raiden, but this was over 10 years ago now. I think gaming is in a different place, so the ME3 backlash is really unprecedented.

#10 Edited by Nekroskop (2786 posts) -

I was still a bit annoyed that you had to play as Raiden, but at the end of the game I liked the character. It's still infuriating that Kojima based Raiden on Japanese high-school girls' opinions though.

#11 Posted by huntad (1958 posts) -

I dunno, MGS2 was really weird. It was an extremely convoluted story, and instead of solid snake we got a girly looking dude with white hair and girl problems. It's the same kind of disappointment, but it wasn't a big deal back then because gaming wasn't as popular as it is today.

#12 Posted by StarvingGamer (8560 posts) -

MGS2 and ME3 are 2 of my favorite games of all time.

They are not for everyone.

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#13 Posted by mrpandaman (872 posts) -

@huntad said:

I dunno, MGS2 was really weird. It was an extremely convoluted story, and instead of solid snake we got a girly looking dude with white hair and girl problems. It's the same kind of disappointment, but it wasn't a big deal back then because gaming wasn't as popular as it is today.

Well isn't all of MGS' story convoluted? Isn't that the point?

I wouldn't say that the unexpected inclusion of Raiden in MGS2 is near the controversy and outrage that ME3 caused, but it's such a different gaming landscape nowadays.

#14 Edited by NTM (7555 posts) -

@Jay444111 said:

@Sooty said:

Nothing in MGS2 is remotely as bad as the original endings of ME3. The extended cut ones aren't much better, especially the bad slideshows.

and ME3 was just a worse game than ME2 and further watered down in some elements (conversation choices, 'exploration'), where as MGS2 did improve on the gameplay of the first significantly, I can take or leave Raiden though.

Still think Twin Snakes is the best MGS game, even if you don't like the re-recorded voice acting it was a pretty good remake.

Snake jumps on top of a missile, backflips off of it and fires a missile at a helicopter... There is a reason why I don't like Twin Snakes... it is just to fucking insane in terms of cutscene work for WORDS to describe how batshit insane it all is.

I think Twin Snakes is the worst MSG game. Well, maybe Portable Ops is because of the controls, and how the game even limits what you can do, and the whole recruiting thing, but really, I didn't like Twin Snakes that much at all. The original was much better, and they screwed up the cool soundtrack.

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#15 Posted by ERoBB (159 posts) -

@Jay444111 said:

MGS never got that reaction other than Raiden. Well... other than the insanity known as Twin Snakes anyway, Here, watch this just so I can prove how fucking insane it is!

Go to 8:05 just to see this insanity.

Instead of jumping the shark, the remake made it backflip the missile and launch one back!

I can't get over how poorly delivered the line "WHAT?" is...

#16 Edited by killacam (1278 posts) -

@Dylabaloo said:

Metal Gear Solid 2 was my first Meta Gear so I never had a problem with Raiden.

i hope that was intentional

also, no. ME3 outright lied about the games' consequences with regard to the ending. and MGS2's ending is amazing. completely warrants any upset over raiden.

#17 Posted by xyzygy (10079 posts) -

The main difference in them is that the story in MGS2 was masterfully told, with unique gameplay climaxing to a truly out of this world ending.

ME3 was just disappointment all around.

#18 Edited by Brodehouse (10140 posts) -

Nah dude, you weren't there. YOU DON'T KNOW YOU WEREN'T THERE I SAW THE BODIES

So with the endings being better, I've carried a second dude into it. The missions don't actually change, but it's really amazing how much the feel changes. For instance, if you have Wreav instead of Wrex, the Renegade choice seems like the responsible option rather than pure evil. If you sent Legion to Cerberus, the quarian/geth stuff takes on a much different feel. It makes me wonder how I would've felt had this been my 'true' game. For instance, I never completed Samara's loyalty mission with this character, and she died in the Collector Base. When I went to the Ardat-Yakshi monastery, I had to be explained what it was by Liara. At the end of it, you're presented with a living Ardat-Yakshi and have to decide if you let her walk free or shoot her right there. I wonder what my reaction to the choice would be if this was the first one I had met, if Samara had never explained it to me.

As much as the actual game content, levels, enemies, art assets, basic narrative plot points are the same, it's super impressive how they make it feel specific to your Shepard. Really surprising how many little flags it remembers. It actually makes what David Cage said true, he didn't want people to play through Heavy Rain two or three times, because he didn't want people to find all the seams. It's not necessarily that everything you do actually changes everything, but that the player feels like it might. The best situations are when things you really sit and moralize and have conflicted emotions about end up being irrelevant, and something you never thought twice about ends up being crucial (easiest examples are the rachni queen and the genophage data... one felt incredibly important and wound up being largely irrelevant... the other felt like just another P/R choice and ends up with possible huge ramifications).

#19 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

They're not even slightly similar.

#20 Posted by ShadowConqueror (3091 posts) -

MGS2 was fucking great, regardless of who the protagonist was. The ending was crazy in all the right ways.

#21 Posted by Nightriff (5367 posts) -

@xyzygy said:

The main difference in them is that the story in MGS2 was masterfully told, with unique gameplay climaxing to a truly out of this world ending.

ME3 was just disappointment all around.

This, you said everything I was thinking. I didn't like MGS2 at first but it certainly has grown on me and can't wait to play it again at some point. ME3 I don't even want in my collection and have no desire to ever play it again unlike the previous 2 installments in the series

#22 Posted by SlashDance (1843 posts) -

I liked Raiden better in MGS2 than in MGS4. And I didn't hate the ending of ME3.

Man, I must have poor taste.

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#23 Posted by Nightriff (5367 posts) -

@Jay444111 said:

MGS never got that reaction other than Raiden. Well... other than the insanity known as Twin Snakes anyway, Here, watch this just so I can prove how fucking insane it is!

Go to 8:05 just to see this insanity.

Instead of jumping the shark, the remake made it backflip the missile and launch one back!

Oh God....how have I not played Twin Snakes yet?!?!

#24 Posted by Dylabaloo (1549 posts) -
@killacam said:

@Dylabaloo said:

Metal Gear Solid 2 was my first Meta Gear so I never had a problem with Raiden.

i hope that was intentional

also, no. ME3 outright lied about the games' consequences with regard to the ending. and MGS2's ending is amazing. completely warrants any upset over raiden.

Unfortunately it was the result of typing in the dark. 
#25 Posted by ERoBB (159 posts) -

@killacam said:

@Dylabaloo said:

Metal Gear Solid 2 was my first Meta Gear so I never had a problem with Raiden.

i hope that was intentional

also, no. ME3 outright lied about the games' consequences with regard to the ending. and MGS2's ending is amazing. completely warrants any upset over raiden.

Not true. If you want to be dramatic, they lied, but using words like "outright" or "literally" it's not true. Depending on who exits the Normandy at the end, those are technically different endings based on your choices.

#26 Posted by M_Shini (551 posts) -

I was never posting on video game forums when i played Mgs2, so i never heard any of the outrage or thought to myself along similar lines so i don't really know how it compares to the rage on ME3,

But that game was awesome in so many other ways that prob made up for the whole not being snake thing, least for the most part for a bunch of peeps.

#27 Posted by Vegetable_Side_Dish (1733 posts) -
@xyzygy said:

The main difference in them is that the story in MGS2 was masterfully told, with unique gameplay climaxing to a truly out of this world ending.

ME3 was just disappointment all around.

This. 
#28 Posted by Fawkes (253 posts) -

MGS2 was made in Japan. You'd only have grounds for a complaint if the ending wasn't batshit crazy nonsense.

#29 Posted by Willin (1286 posts) -

@SlashDance: So you like pussy, constantly bitching Raiden as opposed to sword-breakdancing cyborg ninja Raiden?

#30 Posted by Gonmog (602 posts) -

Keep in mind i have not played ME3, not really interested in it.

My thoughts are that IF MGS2 came out in this gen when gaming is much more main stream, that it would have had a much larger back lash then what ME3 had gotten.

I mean they did with out any notice take out the control of the main char of the game.

I LOVE 2. And i will never forget the feeling when after the tanker level, i was like who the hell is this person, so i kept making codec calls to learn about him, and to hear Snake.

But I remember reading a ton of pissed of threads about not playing as snake.

I just think that today, it would have gotten a huge back lash from people that attack games for dumb as shit reasons, even going so far to place a report with the BBB.

There would have been a masive number of low user scores everywhere.

And that sorta sucks.

#31 Posted by CounterShock (420 posts) -

I think the difference is that if MGS2 had the same outrage that ME3 had, with people demanding them to change the ending or whatever else, Kojima would probably just say "Too bad".

#32 Posted by Hizang (8532 posts) -

Metal Gear Solid 2 is one of the best games of all time, I love that game. I'm also one of the people who preferred Raiden in MGS2 to MGS4, there I said it!

#33 Posted by SlashDance (1843 posts) -

@Willin said:

@SlashDance: So you like pussy, constantly bitching Raiden as opposed to sword-breakdancing cyborg ninja Raiden?

sword-breakdancing is pretty good but he was still pretty flat as a character. And that epilogue with Rose was awful.

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#34 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -

Not really comparable, in that the story of the entire MGS series is a nonsensical, incoherent mess, to the point where I doubt the same levels of rage could be summoned up.

Even at the time most of the anger at the Raiden "twist" was from the same subset of people that cry about a character's voice actor changing in a fighting game. Most people with any claim to rationality would just smirk and shake their head. ME3 obviously made people a lot more passionate, which in turn made them feel a great deal more entitled than they had any right to be

#35 Posted by DisquisedJustin (41 posts) -

@xyzygy:

Yeah, but at the same time, while people had issues with MGS2 then, now it is looked back upon WAAAAAAAAAAAY more fondly, and in some cases is even regarded as the best game in the series by a good segment of the audience. I mean, Raiden's become such a popular character with fans over time that now they're making a game starring Raiden that is advertised as him as the protagonist, something I never would've thought would happen when MGS2 came out. Also, you mention how the story was masterfully told, but I remember PLENTY of people at the time also complaining about the story cause they thought it had waaaaaay too many codec sequences, got way too convoluted compared to the first game, and hated the whole thing with Rose, so while the story may be seen as amazing by most gamers today, at the time it way pretty devisive. Yet, as stated before, now the game is considered a modern classic. Same thing for Zelda: Wind Waker, it's a game that had initial backlash and is now fondly remembered. Trust me, the same will happen for Mass Effect 3, and the overall Mass Effect trilogy as a whole. Sure, I admitt to having some issues with ME3 here and there, but overall I thought it was a fantastic game that was littered with fan service and could've played out completely different for someone else based on actions they made in previous games (talking about the game as a whole, not the ending). So, I think it's just a case of initial reception, I doubt that 10 years from now people will continue to hate on ME3, and I doubt that most people will think it ruined their entire experience with the series, it trully is a great game, may not be the high point of the series, but damn it if I've never felt more satisfied with a video game trilogy in the same way I was with the Mass Effect trilogy.

#36 Posted by Kaowas (124 posts) -

@BulletproofMonk: I agree that the story in MGS2 is batshit awesome, but I think the whole Raiden thing is a bit of knife twist. With that said, I ended up enjoying that game a lot despite the fact that I didn't like Raiden.

#37 Posted by Chroma_Auron (112 posts) -

@DisquisedJustin:

I do understand what your saying but I disagree,, complaints of Windwaker and MGS2 were whining of silly things. and trolling like Raiden and cel-shaded graphics. There were disagreements about cut-scene lengths and amounts or confusion of the story but as bad as ME3. As you said, the end was bad which is almost ether universally agreed with or disagreed. Even some of those who disagree, acknowledge it wasn't perfect. As you said we will find out in time.

#38 Posted by MiniPato (2752 posts) -

I fucking love how crazy MGS2 got with its story. Yeah, Snake was awesome in MGS1, but I wasn't so attached to him that I got pissed when I was playing as Raiden. I didn't mind playing as Raiden. Then again I was 12-13 years old when I first played MGS2, so maybe I hadn't yet grown jaded and cynical enough to hate on him. That and I often find myself more tolerant and generally unoffended at a lot of things that people complain about in games. Like Ashley in RE4. She wasn't really a pain in the ass cause you could tell her to stay in a trash bin or something while you killed dudes.