Microsoft just like GM - ex insider view & rebuttal.

Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#1  Edited By oldschool

 I found this to be quite the interesting read.  Read for yourself and see what you think: 
"Microsofts creative destruction" + Microsofts response.    

The first piece is from Dick Brass, an ex VP of Microsoft posted in the New York Times.


Dick Brass was a vice president at Microsoft from 1997 to 2004.


AS they marvel at Apple’s new iPad tablet computer, the technorati seem to be focusing on where this leaves Amazon’s popular e-book business. But the much more important question is why Microsoft, America’s most famous and prosperous technology company, no longer brings us the future, whether it’s tablet computers like the iPad, e-books like Amazon’s Kindle, smartphones like the BlackBerry and iPhone, search engines like Google, digital music systems like iPod and iTunes or popular Web services like Facebook and Twitter. 


Some people take joy in Microsoft’s struggles, as the popular view in recent years paints the company as an unrepentant intentional monopolist. Good riddance if it fails. But those of us who worked there know it differently. At worst, you can say it’s a highly repentant, largely accidental monopolist. It employs thousands of the smartest, most capable engineers in the world. More than any other firm, it made using computers both ubiquitous and affordable. Microsoft’s Windows operating system and Office applications suite still utterly rule their markets. 


The company’s chief executive, Steve Ballmer, has continued to deliver huge profits. They totaled well over $100 billion in the past 10 years alone and help sustain the economies of Seattle, Washington State and the nation as a whole. Its founder, Bill Gates, is not only the most generous philanthropist in history, but has also inspired thousands of his employees to give generously themselves. No one in his right mind should wish Microsoft failure.

And yet it is failing, even as it reports record earnings. As the fellow who tried (and largely failed) to make tablet PCs and e-books happen at Microsoft a decade ago, I could say this is because the company placed too much faith in people like me. But the decline is so broad and so striking that it would be presumptuous of me to take responsibility for it. 


Microsoft has become a clumsy, uncompetitive innovator. Its products are lampooned, often unfairly but sometimes with good reason. Its image has never recovered from the antitrust prosecution of the 1990s. Its marketing has been inept for years; remember the 2008 ad in which Bill Gates was somehow persuaded to literally wiggle his behind at the camera? 


While Apple continues to gain market share in many products, Microsoft has lost share in Web browsers, high-end laptops and smartphones. Despite billions in investment, its Xbox line is still at best an equal contender in the game console business. It first ignored and then stumbled in personal music players until that business was locked up by Apple. 


Microsoft’s huge profits — $6.7 billion for the past quarter — come almost entirely from Windows and Office programs first developed decades ago. Like G.M. with its trucks and S.U.V.’s, Microsoft can’t count on these venerable products to sustain it forever. Perhaps worst of all, Microsoft is no longer considered the cool or cutting-edge place to work. There has been a steady exit of its best and brightest. 


What happened? Unlike other companies, Microsoft never developed a true system for innovation. Some of my former colleagues argue that it actually developed a system to thwart innovation. Despite having one of the largest and best corporate laboratories in the world, and the luxury of not one but three chief technology officers, the company routinely manages to frustrate the efforts of its visionary thinkers. 


For example, early in my tenure, our group of very clever graphics experts invented a way to display text on screen called ClearType. It worked by using the color dots of liquid crystal displays to make type much more readable on the screen. Although we built it to help sell e-books, it gave Microsoft a huge potential advantage for every device with a screen. But it also annoyed other Microsoft groups that felt threatened by our success. 


Engineers in the Windows group falsely claimed it made the display go haywire when certain colors were used. The head of Office products said it was fuzzy and gave him headaches. The vice president for pocket devices was blunter: he’d support ClearType and use it, but only if I transferred the program and the programmers to his control. As a result, even though it received much public praise, internal promotion and patents, a decade passed before a fully operational version of ClearType finally made it into Windows. 


Another example: When we were building the tablet PC in 2001, the vice president in charge of Office at the time decided he didn’t like the concept. The tablet required a stylus, and he much preferred keyboards to pens and thought our efforts doomed. To guarantee they were, he refused to modify the popular Office applications to work properly with the tablet. So if you wanted to enter a number into a spreadsheet or correct a word in an e-mail message, you had to write it in a special pop-up box, which then transferred the information to Office. Annoying, clumsy and slow. 


So once again, even though our tablet had the enthusiastic support of top management and had cost hundreds of millions to develop, it was essentially allowed to be sabotaged. To this day, you still can’t use Office directly on a Tablet PC. And despite the certainty that an Apple tablet was coming this year, the tablet group at Microsoft was eliminated. 


Not everything that has gone wrong at Microsoft is due to internecine warfare. Part of the problem is a historic preference to develop (highly profitable) software without undertaking (highly risky) hardware. This made economic sense when the company was founded in 1975, but now makes it far more difficult to create tightly integrated, beautifully designed products like an iPhone or TiVo. And, yes, part of the problem has been an understandable caution in the wake of the antitrust settlement. Timing has also been poor — too soon on Web TV, too late on iPods. 


Internal competition is common at great companies. It can be wisely encouraged to force ideas to compete. The problem comes when the competition becomes uncontrolled and destructive. At Microsoft, it has created a dysfunctional corporate culture in which the big established groups are allowed to prey upon emerging teams, belittle their efforts, compete unfairly against them for resources, and over time hector them out of existence. It’s not an accident that almost all the executives in charge of Microsoft’s music, e-books, phone, online, search and tablet efforts over the past decade have left. 


As a result, while the company has had a truly amazing past and an enviably prosperous present, unless it regains its creative spark, it’s an open question whether it has much of a future.


And then Microsofts response:


Measuring Our Work by Its Broad Impact

Former Microsoft employee Dick Brass has an op-ed in the NYT arguing that our better days are behind us, (“clumsy, uncompetitive innovator” . . . ouch!) and using examples from his tenure to make the point that the company can no longer compete or innovate. Obviously, we disagree. :) But his piece does represent a good opportunity to touch briefly on how we think about innovation. 


At the highest level, we think about innovation in relation to its ability to have a positive impact in the world. For Microsoft, it is not sufficient to simply have a good idea, or a great idea, or even a cool idea. We measure our work by its broad impact. 


To make his point, Dick generally focused on ClearType, noting that this technology was “stifled” by existing business groups. For the record, ClearType now ships with every copy of Windows we make, and is installed on around a billion PCs around the world. This is a great example of innovation with impact: innovation at scale.

Now, you could argue that this should have happened faster. And sometimes it does. But for a company whose products touch vast numbers of people, what matters is innovation at scale, not just innovation at speed. And in response to Dick’s comment about Tablets and Office, I’ll simply point to this product called OneNote that was essentially created for the Tablet and is a key part of Office today. 


Another point worth addressing is Dick’s assertion that Xbox is “at best an equal contender in the game console business.” Fact is, Xbox 360 was the first high-definition console. It was the first to digitally deliver games, music, TV shows and movies in 1080p high definition. The first to bring Facebook and Twitter to the living room. And with Project Natal for Xbox 360 launching this year, it will be the first to deliver controller-free experiences that anyone can enjoy—a magical experience for everyone that Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, and Time magazine each named one of the top inventions of 2009. 


And in a world of software plus services, the groundbreaking part of our game strategy is Xbox LIVE. Today, more than 23 million people around the world routinely connect to the service to play games, chat, listen to music, watch movies and much more. 


There is always the opportunity to do more, to move faster, to bring products and services to the world in new and interesting ways, and we embrace this. But thanks to the contribution of Dick and others on the ClearType team, ClearType certainly stands as an example of how it works well. 

 
 
 Sorry for the wall of text.  I couldn't edit it.  - fixed hopefully.
Avatar image for septim
septim

787

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 0

#2  Edited By septim

The major crux of that article seems to be that MS isn't countering the iPad. But isn't the general consensus that the iPad is just a comically oversized iPod touch with a monthly fee?

Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#3  Edited By oldschool
@septim said:
" The major crux of that article seems to be that MS isn't countering the iPad. But isn't the general consensus that the iPad is just a comically oversized iPod touch with a monthly fee? "
I think it runs deeper than that.  I see it is  the Titanic scenario (or GM as was mentioned).  They are on a course that may not be the best, but their size makes it near impossible to change that course in any hurry.  GM just stuck to the past and now Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in the world.  That was a long time coming and could have been averted.  The same goes for technology.  Everyone seems to be jumping ahead of Microsoft and eroding it.  Sure, Microsoft looks huge and unassailable now, but so did GM.  I think they are starting to look more and more like a dinosaur and they really need to connect in ways I don't they can do any more.
Avatar image for deactivated-57b1d7d14d4a5
deactivated-57b1d7d14d4a5

2945

Forum Posts

950

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 3

Microsoft, for all its flaws, has predominantly made products that are useful. I use FireFox and OpenOffice, but you can't deny the impact and importance of Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office, and while I don't think we should tolerate monopolies, we shouldn't condemn Microsoft simply for its successes. 
 
People traditionally look to Apple as the alternative for those who don't want to support an evil corporation, but I feel like business practices at Apple are far more oppressive. Microsoft does not lock Windows XP (which has evolved into a very solid platform) or whatever onto a specific hardware configuration that they sell at an inflated price. The main method they use to lock you into using their product is to offer quality (and windows exclusive) products for free. If it weren't for DirectX, I'd probably be typing this message on Linux.

Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#5  Edited By oldschool
@Bellum said:
" Microsoft, for all its flaws, has predominantly made products that are useful. I use FireFox and OpenOffice, but you can't deny the impact and importance of Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office, and while I don't think we should tolerate monopolies, we shouldn't condemn Microsoft simply for its successes.    People traditionally look to Apple as the alternative for those who don't want to support an evil corporation, but I feel like business practices at Apple are far more oppressive. Microsoft does not lock Windows XP (which has evolved into a very solid platform) or whatever onto a specific hardware configuration that they sell at an inflated price. The main method they use to lock you into using their product is to offer quality (and windows exclusive) products for free. If it weren't for DirectX, I'd probably be typing this message on Linux. "
True, but is still hard not to hate Microsoft and I admit I do.  I use as little of their product as I reasonably can.  I am not alone, but I am also not rabid about it like some can.  They have an image problem for sure and the "young folk" are looking for the "cool" factor elsewhere and it is coming thick and fast from many companies.  I think Microsoft is on the slide, but the slide is long and the gradient gentle.  They can only buy up so much competition.
Avatar image for charleytony
CharleyTony

1024

Forum Posts

426

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 7

#6  Edited By CharleyTony

I had heard that Microsoft had a lot of different teams working on every project. All of them end up being in the "competition for innovation". This work segregation only limits product sinergy and even creates unhealthy competition between team that won't help each other ! 
A huge company like Microsoft would be better served with stronger leadership, better global vision and improved unification of how product should work together. 
 
The real place where the innovators need freedom it when they think about new stuff to develop. After that, it should be the whole company that takes care of finely tuning those ideas and how they can connect with all the other stuff that Microsoft does. 

Ex.: When they launched Zune , they could have used that name for the mp3 players, the music/video marketplace on Xbox, combined the Windws Media player & Zune software into one. Everything that does media (pics songs videos) on the Windows Mobile Phone should have been under the same brand... And if you don't like the Zune name and didn't want to pimp it out, then think of something else...

At Apple, everything is unified, has to work together, products look the same, feel the same, (of course they have less things to sync together than Microsoft has...). You get a MAC computer, you have iTunes, you buy some songs in ther, then if you needed an mp3 player, of course you gotta get an ipod... then 2 years later you want a smartphone.. iPhone obviously ! 
I am sure that everyone at Apple knows that you just need to sell one piece of hardware to convert someone... That has been the strenght of the Apple brand in recent years. 
 
Me personally, when I use someones iMac, MacBook, iPod, etc. I doesn't feel that different from what other companies have to offer... (This excludes the iPhone)
Avatar image for deactivated-57b1d7d14d4a5
deactivated-57b1d7d14d4a5

2945

Forum Posts

950

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 3

@oldschool said:

" @Bellum said:

" Microsoft, for all its flaws, has predominantly made products that are useful. I use FireFox and OpenOffice, but you can't deny the impact and importance of Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office, and while I don't think we should tolerate monopolies, we shouldn't condemn Microsoft simply for its successes.    People traditionally look to Apple as the alternative for those who don't want to support an evil corporation, but I feel like business practices at Apple are far more oppressive. Microsoft does not lock Windows XP (which has evolved into a very solid platform) or whatever onto a specific hardware configuration that they sell at an inflated price. The main method they use to lock you into using their product is to offer quality (and windows exclusive) products for free. If it weren't for DirectX, I'd probably be typing this message on Linux. "
True, but is still hard not to hate Microsoft and I admit I do.  I use as little of their product as I reasonably can.  I am not alone, but I am also not rabid about it like some can.  They have an image problem for sure and the "young folk" are looking for the "cool" factor elsewhere and it is coming thick and fast from many companies.  I think Microsoft is on the slide, but the slide is long and the gradient gentle.  They can only buy up so much competition. "
 
Bottom line is Microsoft needs Windows. Its OS's have always been the bread and butter of the company, and it still is even as the company tries to diversify. As long as there is a Windows, there will be a Microsoft. Thankfully for Microsoft, Windows has a truly vast user base, which I think translates to a loyalty factor that I think is far more important than in the automobile industry. People do not want to invest time and money in order to learn how to use a different product, and I think Microsoft will be able to rely on this for some time. 
 
Windows also has a number of advantages that make it ideal for most home users. It is significantly cheaper to use a Windows system than an OS X system and it is significantly easier than using a Linux system. Microsoft continues to develop new tools that are extremely useful for third party developers, which compounded with the popularity of Windows, leads to a high level of third party support. The relationship seems to be autocatalytic. Third party developers develop for windows, users buy windows, windows supports third party developers, and so the number of third party developers increases and so on. Microsoft continues to innovate in this area because it has always worked. Perhaps it isn't as interesting as a new phone with a popular brand and an interesting gimmick, but I think its the sort of thing that leads to better products for the end user in the long run, and it has led to a great deal of financial success for Microsoft.
Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#8  Edited By oldschool
@Bellum said: 
I agree with your points and I don't see Microsoft going anywhere in a hurry.  It is true that many companies feed off what they do, for profit, but these companies are not loyal and would jump if they could find greater profits elsewhere, or develop there own products from scratch.  In many ways, it is like what Nintendo was, but that was obviously much smaller.  They cannot allow complacency to erode their base as no matter how small a slide is, once it sets in, it is near impossible to reverse.  I know cars are different, but in a way it isn't as no-one at GM thought they would end up the way they are, simply by misreading the market over and over again.  Microsoft really needs to avoid a similar scenario.  No company is without risk.  I can't remember when Microsoft brought out something that interested me, but then again, I have shown myself not to be their market, so I largely ignore what they do.
Avatar image for ajamafalous
ajamafalous

13992

Forum Posts

905

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

#9  Edited By ajamafalous
@oldschool said:

" Now, you could argue that this should have happened faster. And sometimes it does. But for a company whose products touch vast numbers of people, what matters is innovation at scale, not just innovation at speed. And in response to Dick’s comment about Tablets and Office, I’ll simply point to this product called OneNote that was essentially created for the Tablet and is a key part of Office today. 

Another point worth addressing is Dick’s assertion that Xbox is “at best an equal contender in the game console business.” Fact is, Xbox 360 was the first high-definition console. It was the first to digitally deliver games, music, TV shows and movies in 1080p high definition. The first to bring Facebook and Twitter to the living room. And with Project Natal for Xbox 360 launching this year, it will be the first to deliver controller-free experiences that anyone can enjoy—a magical experience for everyone that Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, and Time magazine each named one of the top inventions of 2009. "

They need better PR.
Avatar image for andorski
Andorski

5482

Forum Posts

2310

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

#10  Edited By Andorski

The comparison to GM is a bit flawed to me.  GM's focus on SUVs and horse power cars was a viable business model.  At the turn of this century, net profits for those types of cars were much higher than hybrids and other eco-friendly automobiles.  Their downfall was due to the rapid inflation of fuel prices, which caused consumers to move to high gas mileage vehicles.  It was necessity that drove consumers to change.
 
If one industry can be seen as a "things to come" scenario for another... then Microsoft has some wiggle room.  Their main product, Windows OS, isn't dependent on things to stay the same.  The unstable transition from XP to Vista to 7 shows Microsoft's ability (albeit, inconsistent) to adapt to consumer demands.  The necessity for change will come from rapid transition to consumer needs.  Where that change will go is anybodies guess.  Apple is all about user-friendly products.  Google focuses on free ad-supported web services.  Microsoft lacks identity in this area.  Only time will tell how bad of a position this will leave them in.

Avatar image for seriouslynow
SeriouslyNow

8504

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#11  Edited By SeriouslyNow
@oldschool said:
" @septim said:
" The major crux of that article seems to be that MS isn't countering the iPad. But isn't the general consensus that the iPad is just a comically oversized iPod touch with a monthly fee? "
I think it runs deeper than that.  I see it is  the Titanic scenario (or GM as was mentioned).  They are on a course that may not be the best, but their size makes it near impossible to change that course in any hurry.  GM just stuck to the past and now Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in the world.  That was a long time coming and could have been averted.  The same goes for technology.  Everyone seems to be jumping ahead of Microsoft and eroding it.  Sure, Microsoft looks huge and unassailable now, but so did GM.  I think they are starting to look more and more like a dinosaur and they really need to connect in ways I don't they can do any more. "
Sorry, but no.  I'm not a fan of MS by any stretch, but to compare MS with GM is tantamount to idiocy. There's no logical or translatable correlations which can be accurately drawn from comparing the two; GM suffered largely due to economic downturn and especially the loan crisis because even their cheapest retail cars are expensive enough to warrant financing to seal the deal.  In fact the entire car industry depends on third party finance to keep its retail channel moving, regardless of vehicle tier or drive away cost, so it hardly came as a surprise that the larger companies such as GM would suffer from the financing industry's failures coupled with the overall first world economic downturn. 
 
The comparison between GM and MS is just not valid because very little of the computer hardware or software retail channel actually depends on third party financing to move products.  While companies such Dell, Toshiba and HP may indeed offer finance solutions as a part of their sales portfolios, I'd wager that their actual dependence on the finance industry is quite minimal. The majority of computer products just do not affect the consumer bottom line as strongly as a car could or would, so those people who might pay for computers and their related products via credit card will largely be able to pay off that debt and the others who pay in cash, especially in the parts or discounted end of line products markets will be utterly free of the loans financing sector.  Cars and Computers just do not compare fiscally.
 
Articles like these are quite obviously biased and use awful analogies (often based in fear to heighten the tensions and to distract from the failings of said analogies) to draw ridiculous correlations which will not stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.  The pro Apple bias in that article is literally palpable wherein the author's obvious affection for the iPad either purposefully or by sheer personal blind spotting obscures their ability to accurately discuss the issue of the piece and rather than be impartial as a journalist should, the author uses an ex MS employee as a means to show how divisive the corporate culture is at MS.  MS' corporate culture is well known to be a rough and unfair landscape with many ex employees reporting that management and policies were largely unfair and the general mood caustic going all the way back to the early 80s, so this is hardly a new level of insight.  It's also entirely provable that this rough culture may be the secret to their success because MS has managed to not only weather their own private storms, but also those of their industry and more than a few largescale economic downturns, namely two world wide financial crises, the downturn of Japan's economy and the bursting of the internet bubble, let alone the two invasions of Iraq and the 'war on terror'.  When you take all of that in perspective the article's basis and ideas like it make absolutely no sense at all.
 
I will certainly agree that MS are a big company and suffer all of the problems which big companies do; slow to change, bound in bureaucracy, interdepartmental communication issues and so on but that does not mean with any certainty that they are bound for failure.  MS has made some extremely visible and widely reported slip ups with their leading market products, but they have still managed to soundly beat the competition from fiscal and market absorption standpoints.  The aggressive takeup of Windows 7 after the dismal failure of Vista only proves that they know their market extremely well and can massage that market to stave off the wolves at the door, so to speak.
 
TL;DR The article is utter bullshit using old news to tell a biased tale of pro Apple love and anti MS hate. snore.
Avatar image for brendan
Brendan

9414

Forum Posts

533

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

#12  Edited By Brendan
@Andorski said:
"The comparison to GM is a bit flawed to me.  GM's focus on SUVs and horse power cars was a viable business model.  At the turn of this century, net profits for those types of cars were much higher than hybrids and other eco-friendly automobiles.  Their downfall was due to the rapid inflation of fuel prices, which caused consumers to move to high gas mileage vehicles.  It was necessity that drove consumers to change.  If one industry can be seen as a "things to come" scenario for another... then Microsoft has some wiggle room.  Their main product, Windows OS, isn't dependent on things to stay the same.  The unstable transition from XP to Vista to 7 shows Microsoft's ability (albeit, inconsistent) to adapt to consumer demands.  The necessity for change will come from rapid transition to consumer needs.  Where that change will go is anybodies guess.  Apple is all about user-friendly products.  Google focuses on free ad-supported web services.  Microsoft lacks identity in this area.  Only time will tell how bad of a position this will leave them in. "

I'll just say that in addition to GM's gas problem, if you look at their balance sheets, wages were an enormous part of destroying their bottom line.  Unionized wages.  Dudes working on a line making $70 an hour with only a high school education.  Craziness. 
 
Anyway, I agree with Oldschool to a certain degree.  However, I think Microsoft has done a better job of hedging themselves with Windows than GM did with cars.  No matter what, a consumer can always just choose another brand and step on the gas pedal.  With Windows, however, they have a whol system that dependant on each other, making it hard to switc.  And they're good at it.  My university gets insane discounts on having their whole infrastructure based around Windows, which in turn creates more consumer buyers, and so on, and so on.  Although that VP may have some good points, many VP's who's projects aren't accepted well and leave generally think it's the companies fault.
Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#13  Edited By oldschool
@SeriouslyNow said:  
Don't read into it that heavily.  It is more about story telling than a direct comparison.  It is about a company that lost touch with the market.  Of course there are completely different factors at play, but who is to say, new factors won't have a deleterious effect on Microsoft?  Big companies, no matter how big are not immune to self destruction.
 
It isn't just about Apple as well, it is more broad on other factors at play in the market.
Avatar image for seriouslynow
SeriouslyNow

8504

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#14  Edited By SeriouslyNow
@oldschool: 
Sorry mate, but the 'other factors' are window dressing and the bias and poor journalism in the article are obvious to me.  How exactly has MS lost touch with the market?  They lead in all almost all the areas which they elect to play in and those they don't lead in like consoles and music playback devices, they certainly don't come last in.   I understand how some people may think that MS is set for a huge fall, that's just human nature and you know as well as I that in Australia it's a strong part of self hating culture expressed as "Tall Poppy Syndrome" but there's no sound reason or evidence, based on recorded history, that MS won't successfully deal with the new factors they'll come to face.  Think back over a decade ago and tell me if you'd have thought that SEGA, one the most visible arcade and console developers, would've actually left the hardware market due to the pressure of Sony's PS2.  Tell me if at that time you would've seen MS releasing a console into the same market and having put pressure on said PS2 a few years after its release.  Tell me if you thought that MS's next console would actually sell more units than Sony's follow on to the PS2.  
 
The IT and home entertainment markets have changed quite considerably in slightly more than a decade and MS have still managed to be at the top of the pile.  I have no bias in my opinion and I do not love MS in any way, shape or form but the dollars and market history speak for themselves.
Avatar image for thatfrood
thatfrood

3472

Forum Posts

179

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 8

User Lists: 15

#15  Edited By thatfrood

I like Microsoft. I think Bill Gates is a pretty cool guy.
I agree with a lot of what the dude in the article says. I don't think Ballmer is a very good CEO.
 
But man, I hate apple's marketing and general policy.

Avatar image for authenticm
AuthenticM

4404

Forum Posts

12323

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 2

#16  Edited By AuthenticM
@oldschool said:
Fact is, Xbox 360 was the first high-definition console. It was the first to digitally deliver games, music, TV shows and movies in 1080p high definition.
That is not true! At its launch, the 360 could only do 720p. M$ boldly said numerous times that it was the "sweetspot" and 1080p wasn't necessary. The PS3 came a year later with full 1080p support from the get-go and lo and behold, not long after, Microsoft said the 360 could do 1080p via firmware update. And it wasn't even true 1080p. That's hypocrisy right there.
Avatar image for claude
Claude

16672

Forum Posts

1047

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 18

#17  Edited By Claude

Microsoft has used money to force themselves into the console world and probably have lost a shit load doing it. I don't mind that though. Competition is a good thing. I've learned a lot by owning their two consoles.

Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#18  Edited By oldschool
@SeriouslyNow said:

" @oldschool: 
Sorry mate, but the 'other factors' are window dressing and the bias and poor journalism in the article are obvious to me.  How exactly has MS lost touch with the market?  They lead in all almost all the areas which they elect to play in and those they don't lead in like consoles and music playback devices, they certainly don't come last in.   I understand how some people may think that MS is set for a huge fall, that's just human nature and you know as well as I that in Australia it's a strong part of self hating culture expressed as "Tall Poppy Syndrome" but there's no sound reason or evidence, based on recorded history, that MS won't successfully deal with the new factors they'll come to face.  Think back over a decade ago and tell me if you'd have thought that SEGA, one the most visible arcade and console developers, would've actually left the hardware market due to the pressure of Sony's PS2.  Tell me if at that time you would've seen MS releasing a console into the same market and having put pressure on said PS2 a few years after its release.  Tell me if you thought that MS's next console would actually sell more units than Sony's follow on to the PS2.    The IT and home entertainment markets have changed quite considerably in slightly more than a decade and MS have still managed to be at the top of the pile.  I have no bias in my opinion and I do not love MS in any way, shape or form but the dollars and market history speak for themselves. "

Again, don't get me wrong, I  did say this: 
 I think Microsoft is on the slide, but the slide is long and the gradient gentle. 
   I don't think they resonate in a way they once did, which is why i think they have peaked and their future isn't so certain, but again, this is a long way off.  Your point about Sega is kind of a reinforcement of mine.  Just because Microsoft is so large and powerful doesn't mean it is infallible.  I am not even saying they will fall, but I agree with some that it is a distinct possibility it can lose a considerable portion of its market if it doesn't change in some way. 
 
By the way, that wasn't journalism.  It was 2 peoples opinions, verbatim, without any spin.
Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#19  Edited By oldschool
@AuthenticM said:
" @oldschool said:
Fact is, Xbox 360 was the first high-definition console. It was the first to digitally deliver games, music, TV shows and movies in 1080p high definition.
That is not true! At its launch, the 360 could only do 720p. M$ boldly said numerous times that it was the "sweetspot" and 1080p wasn't necessary. The PS3 came a year later with full 1080p support from the get-go and lo and behold, not long after, Microsoft said the 360 could do 1080p via firmware update. And it wasn't even true 1080p. That's hypocrisy right there. "
I assume you know I didn't write (or have an opinion on) that, but your quote makes it look like I said it.  You might want to watch how you work the quotes.  Plus, my limited knowledge is that you are probably pretty much right.
Avatar image for seriouslynow
SeriouslyNow

8504

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#20  Edited By SeriouslyNow
@oldschool said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:

" @oldschool: 
Sorry mate, but the 'other factors' are window dressing and the bias and poor journalism in the article are obvious to me.  How exactly has MS lost touch with the market?  They lead in all almost all the areas which they elect to play in and those they don't lead in like consoles and music playback devices, they certainly don't come last in.   I understand how some people may think that MS is set for a huge fall, that's just human nature and you know as well as I that in Australia it's a strong part of self hating culture expressed as "Tall Poppy Syndrome" but there's no sound reason or evidence, based on recorded history, that MS won't successfully deal with the new factors they'll come to face.  Think back over a decade ago and tell me if you'd have thought that SEGA, one the most visible arcade and console developers, would've actually left the hardware market due to the pressure of Sony's PS2.  Tell me if at that time you would've seen MS releasing a console into the same market and having put pressure on said PS2 a few years after its release.  Tell me if you thought that MS's next console would actually sell more units than Sony's follow on to the PS2.    The IT and home entertainment markets have changed quite considerably in slightly more than a decade and MS have still managed to be at the top of the pile.  I have no bias in my opinion and I do not love MS in any way, shape or form but the dollars and market history speak for themselves. "

Again, don't get me wrong, I  did say this: 
 I think Microsoft is on the slide, but the slide is long and the gradient gentle. 
   I don't think they resonate in a way they once did, which is why i think they have peaked and their future isn't so certain, but again, this is a long way off.  Your point about Sega is kind of a reinforcement of mine.  Just because Microsoft is so large and powerful doesn't mean it is infallible.  I am not even saying they will fall, but I agree with some that it is a distinct possibility it can lose a considerable portion of its market if it doesn't change in some way.  By the way, that wasn't journalism.  It was 2 peoples opinions, verbatim, without any spin. "
Once again mate, sorry but you're wrong it was journalism, the article was an Op Editorial in the New York Times written by ex MS Employee Dick Brass, dated February 4th 2010.  The rebuttal from Microsoft by way of Frank X Shaw wasn't journalism and I never disputed that.  It's clear now that Dick has an Anti MS axe to grind and is now drinking Apple flavoured Kool-Aid while Frank's response is pretty much what you'd expect from an MS Employee who wants to keep his job; not exactly lying but close enough via carefully chosen wording and discussion points which are hard to disprove and ambiguous at best.  But that's just mere bagatelle honestly and doesn't sway the argument one way or the other.
 
My personal view is that even if MS are on the downward slide, it's going to take decades before we see any evidence or knock-on effects because they are heavily invested in a set of decisions which all technology companies are both directly and indirectly a party too and these decisions are quite literally going to shape the future of computing and entertainment as we know them.  Quite frankly, probably our lives and those of our descendants as well.
 
People should start by looking up the TCPA and thinking about how heavily invested and interdependent our modern cultures are in technology these days.  They should also think how much moreso this will be true as powerful new economic nations with large populations rising in the East like China and India.  The world is not going to be like it has been for the last two decades as we take our next steps into a proper Information Economy and there are many prosperous companies who are making sure that they stay in place in the longer term.  Oligopolies have already formed with MS quite literally at the core via The Trusted Computing Platform which they first started roiling out with Windows XP with the help AMD and Intel via their built NX registers and the first implementation of DEP.  Who supplies Apple it's platform?  Why, Intel of course.  Apple is now part of the TCPA as are many other vendors including all the names we've come to accept as Tier 1 and 2 system builders.  The TCPA guarantees MS direct and indirect control of Information Economy of the future so even if they're on a long slide to oblivion (why I sincerely doubt based on current figures and a rough idea of their projected licensing costs as they move from package to service provider) then the whole TCPA oligoply would have to go with them and that could take DECADES.
Avatar image for armaan8014
armaan8014

6325

Forum Posts

2847

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 17

#21  Edited By armaan8014

For Microsoft,
Profit matters >> innovation..
That's just what i understood from the article, and from what I've heard about them

Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#22  Edited By oldschool
@SeriouslyNow said:  
I am not convinced of the Apple Kool-Aid, but yes, as an ex-employee, there has to be some form of bias, but I am not about to disagree with the overall points of your reply.  It is in line with what I am saying about a slow decline and a gentle gradient.  By that I do mean decades.
Avatar image for seriouslynow
SeriouslyNow

8504

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#23  Edited By SeriouslyNow
@oldschool: 
 
I think you missed my point.  There won't be a decline, there will always be the TCPA long into our future.  MS is at the nexus of the TCPA oligopoly so unless Linux or some other FLOSS OS comes along which doesn't need the support of IHVs to run (as any modern Linux or BSD does, Nvidia and ATI are just two IHVs who supply binary closed source drivers to the Linux and BSD communities, there are quite a few and while r&d is happening wrt open source equivalents it's nowhere near the same level of completeness at present) and performs just as well or better for consumers then we will be using Windows or whichever future MS OS's are around at that time.  Apple will probably eventually capitulate to market pressures and kill off their desktop arm altogether and concentrate on portable computing which covers their media arms as well.
 
I'd be happy to proven wrong in the next 40 years.  I really would.
Avatar image for oldschool
oldschool

7641

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

#24  Edited By oldschool
@SeriouslyNow said:
" @oldschool:   I think you missed my point.  There won't be a decline, there will always be the TCPA long into our future.  MS is at the nexus of the TCPA oligopoly so unless Linux or some other FLOSS OS comes along which doesn't need the support of IHVs to run (as any modern Linux or BSD does, Nvidia and ATI are just two IHVs who supply binary closed source drivers to the Linux and BSD communities, there are quite a few and while r&d is happening wrt open source equivalents it's nowhere near the same level of completeness at present) and performs just as well or better for consumers then we will be using Windows or future OS's are around at that time.  Apple will probably eventually capitulate to market pressures and kill of their desktop arm altogether and concentrate on portable computing which covers their media arms as well.  I'd be happy to proven wrong in the next 40 years.  I really would. "
But a company of MS size can't just rely on Windows.  It's decline will come from its reliance on it as other companies eat around it.  Mistakes could be made as it tries to make its mark in areas it sees as strategic, possibly damaging it even further.  I think that is where the issues lie - where does Microsoft want to be?  Apple had that problem and went close to death before it found a clear direction.  MS may find it, buts size leaves it more vulnerable to more costly errors.
Avatar image for seriouslynow
SeriouslyNow

8504

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#25  Edited By SeriouslyNow
@oldschool: 
 
That's if Windows was a dwindling resource like Crude Oil for example.  It's not it's a core feature of almost every desktop PC and laptop in the market. Not only that but as MS moves from package provider to service provider, the TCPA will ensure that MS gets a cut of almost every TCPA driven device, implementation and service provided along with their own.   With around 90% of the consumer IT market under their control they have nothing to worry about with their future tied into the TCPA oligopoly they'll be laughing all the way to the bank.  The other companies DEPEND on MS, not the other way around bro.  MS made sure of that since the days it started long term OEM agreements with all of the major IHVs almost at the point of DOS 3's release.
 
By comparison, Apple struggled BECAUSE they were freaked out by licensing their platform and implementations to Tower Computing in the early '90s.  As Tower previewed some of their upcoming licensed Apple Compatibles to the press and senior Apple VPs it was clear that Tower were going to provide machines which were cheaper and better specced than the real G3/G4 Apple machine would be, so Apple pulled the plug on the whole deal and begged Steve Jobs to return and give them a better long term plan.  Apple are not the business savvy company which some people see them as.  Yes, they've been smart in the last decade by centering themselves on the media providing market but that is really all they've done to stay afloat and if someone who is bigger and better equipped to take that market Apple could just as quickly lose their only real Golden Egg.  iTunes has its fair share of critics and all that would need to happen is for someone else to offer a better, cheaper and friendlier alternative on Windows (where Apple largely takes the majority of its income from) and within a year or two Apple would have to solely rely on their own platforms of delivery.  
 
It sounds strange saying it but it's definitely possible.  Take a look at how quickly their PCs and laptops devalue these days.  Back in the early 90s an iBook was a much sought after machine but since taking on the Intel platform their machines get much more rigorously compared to many other competing Windows models in the market and so the shelf life of an Apple machine has been shortened drastically.  The only place where they have any direct price control is in their AppStore delivery products like the iPhone and, iPod range and now the iPad, yet it too has already come under fire for being limited and expensive in comparison to Netbook Tablets and Netbooks alike.  Apple have limited time to cement their place in the market to be honest and should they make any more major slip ups as they've already done with the iPad I'd say that they'll not be the same company in less than 20 years, possibly even less. 
 
 That article is essentially full of shit because it tries its best to convince people that MS are the Titanic when in reality they are the Iceberg.
Avatar image for mrfizzy
mrfizzy

1666

Forum Posts

58

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 6

#26  Edited By mrfizzy
@oldschool: Its sort of sad. I mean the fact that Microsoft could do so many things but fails to compete because of what is essentially bad management. As professional and well thought out as their reply is, i dont think that it will change a lot of people's minds seeing as they will be able to see a lack of Microsoft hardware to compete with Apple.  
Avatar image for seriouslynow
SeriouslyNow

8504

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#27  Edited By SeriouslyNow
@mrfizzy said:
" @oldschool: Its sort of sad. I mean the fact that Microsoft could do so many things but fails to compete because of what is essentially bad management. As professional and well thought out as their reply is, i dont think that it will change a lot of people's minds seeing as they will be able to see a lack of Microsoft hardware to compete with Apple.   "
Yes of course, because having around 90% of the Operating System market and giving Sony a real run for their money in the console space are definitely signs that MS' bad management practices are holding them back.  There are more XBOX 360s sold than Apple Macs in the same period, so please come back with some factual data before you make more silly comments regarding lack of MS hardware.  As I've stated before I'm no fan of MS but the facts speak for themselves. 
Avatar image for mrfizzy
mrfizzy

1666

Forum Posts

58

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 6

#28  Edited By mrfizzy
@SeriouslyNow said:
" @mrfizzy said:
" @oldschool: Its sort of sad. I mean the fact that Microsoft could do so many things but fails to compete because of what is essentially bad management. As professional and well thought out as their reply is, i dont think that it will change a lot of people's minds seeing as they will be able to see a lack of Microsoft hardware to compete with Apple.   "
Yes of course, because having around 90% of the Operating System market and giving Sony a real run for their money in the console space are definitely signs that MS' bad management practices are holding them back.  There are more XBOX 360s sold than Apple Macs in the same period, so please come back with some factual data before you make more silly comments regarding lack of MS hardware.  As I've stated before I'm no fan of MS but the facts speak for themselves.  "
You want facts? Iv had a total of 3 different iPods and have never even considered buying a Zune, likewise i dont know anyone who is using a Zune today. Iv never used Bing but i use Google every day. I havent used Internet Explorer for around about 5-6 years (i switched to Firefox and then to Chrome). I agree that Windows is the best OS out there but its only a matter of time before a serious competitor enters the market. and when the iPad comes out, i wont be buying Microsoft's competition to it seeing as there isnt any. And next time, before you talk about my "silly comments" check that your not comparing an Xbox 360 to an Apple Mac seeing as the two arent competing. (BTW, did you know that more oranges have been sold that xbox 360s? OMG MICROSOFT IS LOOSING BUSINESS TO FRUIT SELLERS!!!!!!!...!!!!!!). 
Avatar image for seriouslynow
SeriouslyNow

8504

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#29  Edited By SeriouslyNow
@mrfizzy: 
 
Well thanks for that mess of an almost unintelligible response, I had to read it a few times to understand what you attempted to say.  If you take the time to read this thread and others like it which reference the iPad here on GB you'll find that I've already commented that Apple have been extremely successful in the media delivery market in the last decade.  I've also commented that MS have made quite a few slip ups in their products yet they've been extremely good at saving face and restoring customer faith at the same time.  Windows 7 extremely quick pick up after the failure of Vista is one of many examples.   The spare few valid points you make regarding Bing and the Zune are indeed areas where MS does not lead the market, however as of January of this year (2010) Internet Explorer still has control of 65% of the browser market.  As to your opinion that Windows 7 is the best OS, I never said it was so I don't know who you you're agreeing with.
 
The reason I made the comparison between the XBOX 360 and the Apple computer by number is that you made the fucking ridiculous claim that MS doesn't have any hardware to compete with Apple.  MS don't make desktop or laptop computers but they do make consoles and considering the fact that Apple did dip its toes into the console market with the Apple Bandai Pippin which was laughed out of presentations, I think the comparison isn't entirely without merit.  Unlike the mind numbingly stupid shite that issues forth from your posts.
Avatar image for mrfizzy
mrfizzy

1666

Forum Posts

58

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 6

#30  Edited By mrfizzy
@SeriouslyNow: ok, im not really interesting in getting into an "argument" with someone who i dont know/will never know just coz they dont like my opinion. have a nice day.