Ok, we have to freaking figure this out - where does the subtitle option belong?

"Display" almost always means brightness / gamma settings and screen size / HUD scaling nowadays. I usually check for subtitles in the sound menu before anything else.

I think you talked earlier in this thread about getting people out of bad habits. Well, the 1997 controller is a bad habit. They stick with it because they (the players and designers) have become comfortable. I wrote about this at length a month ago.

http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/i-want-new-controllers-1806553/

What? No, it doesn't.

It's an audio setting so it belongs under Audio settings. If the game's settings list Sound, they're foolish and should change that to Audio while they're at it. It does not belong under Display settings just because it appears on screen. That's silly. By that logic all gameplay settings should be under display settings as well. Button prompts appear on screen so there's half of all games' controller settings. Controller sensitivity changes how fast the screen turns on your display so that's a display setting. The AI moves differently on your display when the game is set to hard so that's a display setting too, right? See? Silly.

@ezekiel: Just because you wrote something doesn't mean it is a fact? Most people seem to disagree with you and the innovation we have had in the controller space has proven to be inferior to traditional controls. Not to say it is impossible to revamp, but the current controller we have now is obviously better than most alternatives we can think of.

Write on the settings menu! Seems like the best option since everyone can't seem to agree where it belongs anyway.

No, it's definitely not better. It's badly designed for modern games. I would argue the mouse and keyboard are superior for a variety of games. There has barely been any innovation at all. All I can think of is motion controls, which have other problems. Some of them have had touch screens, but around those touch screens is still the same controller. The Steam Controller can hardly affect gaming. The change needs to come from Sony, since they're the most mainstream and all the games are built to accommodate console players. Like I said, they've become comfortable. They're playing complicated games with hardware from 1997.

@ezekiel: We're talking about opinions now though. There is no way a KB/M is better or more comfortable than a controller to me.

I like using subtitles because most of the times I play games on speakers. For that reason I usually reduce the sound from the game, or mute it altogether when I have something playing (ex: GB videos/podcast) on the second screen.

Dragon Age or Witcher are great examples imo why subtitles are necessary, by the sole reason Npc's talk about stuff on the background, and most of the times they fill the world, with Lore or "hidden" quests. Since RPGs are my favorite game genre, subs are requisite, for me, to enjoy a game.

AS for where they should be I voted on Sound. Since Devs shouldn't create new menus for subs only, and putting it on graphics/gameplay is a bad idea, most games have a ton of sliders on those two categories, so most of the times you miss the little checkbox, fr the subtitles.

Display/sound are the reasonable options, but if Devs aspire for a concise settings menu, why have display?! Most display options can be pushed to the graphics options (like most games do) leaving subs to be pushed to the Sound options.

Settings->Accessibility #0

Settings -> Display #1

If an accessibility menu exists it belongs there with closed captioning and color-blindness options.

Otherwise, Display. toggle the Display of the subtitles. I understand the thought process behind Settings -> Sound, but they are not a sound option. They are a visual option, often used in place of sound.

The Jak and Daxter games solved this problem way back in the PS2 era. During a cutscene, if you want subtitles on you can push Square. Otherwise, don't push anything. Issue completely resolved in the most intuitive way possible.

@tpoppapuff:Yes you made the argument seem silly indeed. Just how people could reverse it and be like 'audio is sound, subtitles are text, clearly it doesn't belong in audio. People think they need a sound driver to display the subtitles derrrpp!! Silly humans.'

I can understand why this poll has the majority voting for Sound, since this site is predominantly visited by english speaking people. They play english games and only need to fiddle with subtitles if there's a sound issue or if they have a hearing disability. It's only natural that audio and subs are so linked in this usecase.

For a lot of people outside of the english speaking countries, we consume english entertainment by adding subtitles to them. Or even dubs (yuck). When we go to the cinema, we watch subtitled movies. It's not necessary a sound issue for us, we are raised with subtitles. I can handle myself in english and don't necessarily need the subtitles, but it's still something i value greatly. What if this actor uses an old-timeish accent? Did that guy just say 'My tarnation' or 'my damn station'? What if i want to relax with a movie in the evening instead of using my brain to convert the audio > english words > words in my language? What if someone can't follow the movie because they are not as proficient in english to keep up with the movie?

Personally, translated subs are not necessary for me, but i can see how that would benefit a lot of people outside the english countries. Still, even simple english subs make such a big difference already. Being able to read along with the voices makes me relax so much more than constantly having to listen carefully and interpret the meaning . For me, subtitles are not a replacement for audio, but a display tool that makes me be able to truly relax with a game and be engaged by a story, just like i would be engaged by a movie in our cinema's or on our tv's.

In this usecase, sound is not the primary reason for subtitles.

You know what I hate? The first time I start a game, this big cinematic starts, and there's no subtitles, and the sound mixing is terrible. You know, because the opening cinematic has to have huge explosions or world-ending cataclysms, and those things are loud. Far too loud to hear the narration setting up the world.

I don't want to skip it, because I hate doing that the first time, but then how easy will it be to see the cinematic again?

Anyways...as long as it's under Audio or Display, I'm happy. Both make sense to me.

@ripelivejam said:

You're joking right? Obviously it should a completely hidden option you get via paid DLC, which in turn only changes a .ini file, which if you change it by hand will get you banned off your DRM platform of choice.

@thehanna: This is the best answer aside from having it as a standalone check box on the main menu page.

The only right one is Settings > Display > Subtitles.

Started playing BF: Bad Company and it doesn't even have subtitles!

Ooooh, so THIS is why we can never find where the damn subtitles are...

Honestly, I don't even know what's real anymore... Some games have a language sub-menu while others don't. A graphics sub-menu? The fuck is that on a console? Do I have to beat the game on new game plus to unlock them? Do I need to buy a Vive or wait for HoloLens?

I don't even know where they are on DVDs and blu-rays anymore... Like, seriously. It's gotten to the point where I'm questioning that now since it's been almost two years since I had to turn them on with physical discs.

What are subtitles in Dragon Age when they're at the top of the screen?!

...I'm losing my goddamn mind here. So many menus. So little bit of sanity left.

@facelessvixen: Oh god, subtitles at the top of the screen is just madness. Lol

@onemanarmyy: I turn subtitles on in all my games as someone who only speaks English and does not have a hearing disability. My hearing isn't great but I'm not impaired.

Whether it has to do with translation or not, it's still an audio issue. And translation is an audio issue to. You're not translating the visuals into another language, are you? "Oh, this is the English translation. Put on the French translation where everyone has French berets and have wispy mustaches instead of cowboy hats and goatees." Aside from being ridiculous stereotypes, the idea is still silly. You're translating the voices, you know, AUDIO, into another language even if it is displayed visually.

You can mock me all you want, but you can't find a better category to put it in out of the Gameplay-Graphics-Audio trio.

I know! That junk is infuriating.

@tpoppapuff:I'm sorry if my message came across as mocking you. That was not my intention, i just wanted to push back against the idea that there's one true answer to this question and all other answers are silly no matter what the usecase might be.

Subtitles are a written rendering of the audio dialog. A clear and logical link between subtitles and audio. When it's hard to hear the audio, using to the audio menu to switch subs on makes sense. Therefore, I can understand why nearly 50% of this poll argues that it should be put in the audio menu. I would agree if english was my primary language.

However, if i look at my usecase , subtitles being a visual tool is a stronger reason why i use it than the audio aspect. Before i've heard any sound from the game, i have already chosen to use subtitles, simply because it's how we experience english media over here. Even if the stereomix turns out to be fine, or the neighbor stopped blasting his music through the walls ,i'm not going back to switch the subs off again. The audio has no impact on my decision to use subtitles.

On top of that, subtitles remain a visual tool to be seen on a display. If i go to a display setting , i expect to find options that change what i see on the display. Resolution, Anti-aliasing, shadow quality, texture quality, field of view, subtitles. All options that change what is being rendered on screen.

In short:

Subtitles have an an audio and a visual component. Depending on your usecase, you either value the audio component more or the visual component. Personally i believe that if your primary language is english, you will weigh audio more. If english is not your primary language, how we experience english media will make us value the visual aspect of subtitles more.

The folks voting for Setting>Display>Subtitles, I get the argument but doesn't it look super weird seeing the subtitle option next to brightness and border boundary settings?

@onemanarmyy: No worries. My argument though is that while it is a visual tool, it is a visual tool for what is primarily an audio issue in the large majority of cases.

@tpoppapuff: Yeah, if i was making a game that mostly appealed to english speaking countries, i would have no problem putting aside my personal preference and put it in the audio section. At the end of the day, you don't want to frustrate the majority of your customers.

@liquiddragon

I feel like subtitles will bother people on both sides of the argument since it's such a 50% audio, 50% display thing. Like this screen from Starcraft 2 has all these volume sliders and nearly every checkbox includes the word 'Sound'. All very clearly audio settings that are in some way directly linked to your audio driver. If i unplugged my speakers, none of these settings would function . Except for that one checkbox that requires it's own subtitle. It even says Display Subtitles to highlight that there's a visual component. To me this feels slightly more jarring than if i saw the option next to brightness settings.

The semantic argument behind subtitles being visual but under sound never even occurred to me as something that would come up here. I think this is the best response:

If games actually included "Language" as an option on menus then that would be best, but since they never do I didn't vote for it. Hopefully one day we get to the point where games ship with a healthy variety of languages supported.

Your check is in the mail. ;)