@mystakin:
"ONLY 6 GRAND"
Mere pocketchange. Excuse me while i wipe my behind with these crisp 100-dollar bills.
Asking that much to do the same thing she does on her website for free is just boarderline scamming.
I guess she's got to do something to pay the rent, since her degree in socialstudies sure doesn't pay the bills.
@Veektarius: This is a bit off topic, but I'm curious about the second part of your post. First, just for the record, I'm a guy, I have no problem with female leads(Recently watched through Buffy the Vampire Slayer and loved it. I also enjoyed the movie Chocolate which is centered around a female martial artist. In video games that let you create a character I'm always male, but I have no problem playing a female lead). Anyway, to my question. Do you avoid those things just because you think they'll be "too girly" for you? What does that even mean? I doubt I'll be able to convince you of anything, but I'm really curious why you feel this way. Also, It'd be easier if you kept the focus on anything but books, I'm not really a book guy.
@MordeaniisChaos said:
I liked the ladies in Gears though! Believe it or not, lady service members (Dear god please don't let any of them read this) are often basically breardless men with breasts and feminine voices. I am speaking from experience. Fuck, even the poolees are harder and manlier than most of the guys were at my highschool. It'd be a bit odd to see a really girly feminine girl in a flack vest or MARPAT. Combat tends to attract a particular kind of person, generally considered more masculine.
...
I'll be watching you, boy...
@ahaisthisourchance said:
@mystakin:
"ONLY 6 GRAND"
Mere pocketchange. Excuse me while i wipe my behind with these crisp 100-dollar bills.
Asking that much to do the same thing she does on her website for free is just boarderline scamming.
I guess she's got to do something to pay the rent, since her degree in socialstudies sure doesn't pay the bills.
Compared to 50 grand, yes it is relatively cheap. It's 12% of the initial value; 12 cents to the dollar of your original statement. The videos she's making will always be free on her website, that's kind of the point. Unfortunately, the videos aren't free to create even if they're free to distribute. Your comment about her degree is proof enough to me that you care nothing about the actual argument (or education) and just get off on insulting people and their passions, so I'll bid you a kind fair-well.
Women are depicted in these ways because there is actual empirical evidence that marketers can quantify that shows a direct correlation of the amount of sex (eg sexual allusions, sexy women) in a game to game sales amongst males 18-34 (the only demographic that matters to them). The unfortunate part about that is that it means that oversexualization of women in games definitely will never go away. One the same hand, games that forego these stereotypes are always less likely to receive financial backing. By the way, this is not a unique problem. Movies fall into the same trap and the music industry maybe even more so. The preference of 18-34 yr old males will also be considered the most because that is the demographic which the profit is derived.
@bjacks27 said:
Women are depicted in these ways because there is actual empirical evidence that marketers can quantify that shows a direct correlation of the amount of sex (eg sexual allusions, sexy women) in a game to game sales amongst males 18-34 (the only demographic that matters to them). The unfortunate part about that is that it means that oversexualization of women in games definitely will never go away. One the same hand, games that forego these stereotypes are always less likely to receive financial backing. By the way, this is not a unique problem. Movies fall into the same trap and the music industry maybe even more so. The preference of 18-34 yr old males will also be considered the most because that is the demographic which the profit is derived.
+1
I support the idea of the Kickstarter and all that, but I've watched some of her other videos before and wasn't a huge fan. Plus, talking about tropes in games is like shooting fish in a barrel. She's not going to tell me anything I haven't already read, probably in much greater detail, on TVTropes.org.
"Discussions" (see thinly veiled shit flinging matches) over sexism in any form are infuriating to me. Does sexism exist? Yep, and on both sides of the fence and in a number different (at times subversive) ways. People need to learn to stfu, accept each others differences and try to live with each other.
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
@Joeyoe31 said:
I know that Youtube spam isn't wanted here but I'm going to post this video as it basically explains why I think this kickstarter is really stupid.
EDIT: Happy 300 posts to me!
so ive watched feminist frequency and i dont think this dude has. he says there's no possible way she could fill 20 minutes, but that simply isnt true. she uses loads of examples and provides backstory and explains what the trope she is addressing is in a concise way by citing different places/characters where a certain trope has appeared. its a good format for relaying information in an interesting way, kind of like an overly preachy cracked article. and i think she's allowed to be a little preachy cause she's delivers a point of view that i would normally have no access to; i let the annoying opinions slide.
also, the series doesn't try to prove that games/movies are being marketed unfairly to a narrow market; that's the foregone conclusion that inspired this whole mess. rather, it seeks to highlight the ways that sexism is ingrained in pop culture with examples that are often overlooked.
i dont think she's always right by a long shot but i do think she's worth listening to.
EDIT: also yeah its a dumb fucking kickstarter
Art does not equal to non objectification /sexualization of women , you really need to study that a the vast majority (forgive the hyperbole) of art that has women in it are beautiful , naked or non displeasing for males (so exualized in the end). And I will say I like females to be beautiful in my videogames so whoever tries to destroy that , is my enemy >:3 , altho I agree that there should be more female leads , like Samus , Faith (Mirror´s Edge protagonist) . But I do not wish ever to play as Ugly Betty etc. Call me mysoginist , chauvinist etc. but videogames is the last thing we have that isnt destoyed by feminazism.
@Korwin said:
"Discussions" (see thinly veiled shit flinging matches) over sexism in any form are infuriating to me. Does sexism exist? Yep, and on both sides of the fence and in a number different (at times subversive) ways. People need to learn to stfu, accept each others differences and try to live with each other.
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
Just wanted to say you took the words outta my mouth.
@Anund said:
Maybe it's that I am male, but I just don't see that much sexism in games. Both men and women are taken to the extreme: the men are all fit and unrealistcally muscled, the women are thin with big breasts. That sort of provides eye candy for both sexes.
Now, the behaviour of the actual people playing the games... that is a different thing all together.
This is especially true in comic books. People always point out Catwoman and all the other big breasted thin waisted women in comics, but there are just as many men in comics with muscles bulging from every angle in skin tight...tights that leave nothing to the imagination.
As far as video games are concerned, most of the games I play don't seem to portray women as objects. I just finally played through Dead Space 2 where the main (living) female was a very independent, sensibly dressed woman. I'm also playing through Prince of Persia '08 and Elika seems like a fairly fleshed out character. Uncharted women are sexy (except Marlow) but in more subtle ways than throwing boobs at your face. Nariko from Heavenly Sword was scantily clad, but still a strong female character (that didn't take no crap from nobody) and Kai who is pretty tough albeit traumatized and kind of crazy. Then there's Mass Effect which treats most if not all of its female leads as strong and integral members of the team (even though Miranda was pretty much on display, but she was engineered to be a genetically perfect). Also, Portal shows a pretty tough female lead.
There are games that I enjoy that do treat women less respectfully like MK, God of War, Devil May Cry, etc.
I don't know, it just seems like there IS sexism in games, but I don't think it's as widespread as some like to say.
Videogames are getting to the point were sexism is really disappearing granted its still there but for the most part it's becoming equal. I just think female characters need a lead to make gamers believe that hey it's kool to play a female lead(closest thing to that is female Shepard). The online thing though is to be expected; if u go into online thinking people are going to be kool when u kill them u got it all wrong. A perfect example of people exaggerating just check a YouTube vid n it's the same thing as a online game.
@bjacks27 said:
Women are depicted in these ways because there is actual empirical evidence that marketers can quantify that shows a direct correlation of the amount of sex (eg sexual allusions, sexy women) in a game to game sales amongst males 18-34 (the only demographic that matters to them). The unfortunate part about that is that it means that oversexualization of women in games definitely will never go away. One the same hand, games that forego these stereotypes are always less likely to receive financial backing. By the way, this is not a unique problem. Movies fall into the same trap and the music industry maybe even more so. The preference of 18-34 yr old males will also be considered the most because that is the demographic which the profit is derived.
I'd love to see your supporting evidence for this, it's not true.
@Joeyoe31 said:
I know that Youtube spam isn't wanted here but I'm going to post this video as it basically explains why I think this kickstarter is really stupid.
I'd love to see his supporting evidence for young men being the largest gamer demographic of gamers, it's not true.
@McShank said:
I was never in any poll to show what gender i was and that i played vij da games. I call shenanigans on that percentage and whatever source you read it from!
Oh wow, it must really suck to be misrepresented in something... it was information gathered from the ESA, you really can't find a better source, they are the people that run E3.
@Korwin said:
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
Where are you from? That place sounds amazing, especially since if groups were equally entitled then neither would be.
I am all for feminism. However can we just stop having people point out "This is not a true representative of women. It is sexist." Instead tell us WHAT the actual representation that should be used and go from there.
Right now all that happens is like a rat in a box. You hit it when it goes for food, you hit when it tries to drink, you hit it when it moves. It gets to a point to decides that the best action to not be hut is to just sit in the corner and die. Or just ignore you, bite you and do its own thing.
The problem I have with these discussions about sexism, isn't that I disagree, but that they go around in circles and rarely ever cover anything new. "Sexism is bad?" "Yeah." Okay, now what? We discuss how to change it? Every developer and their cousin are well aware that many forms of sexism exist in games, and they've vocalized that they want to change that. As far as I see it: what happens, happens. The film industry and music industry have, arguably, just as many examples of sexism. And even if they have it to a lesser extent, they're also catering to larger demographics that encompass males and females of all ages.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, everyone, settle your jimmies. Top men have heard you and are on the case. In the mean time, just don't forward your money to a product you find... distasteful.
@Grimhild: Oh my!
@Akyho said:
I am all for feminism. However can we just stop having people point out "This is not a true representative of women. It is sexist." Instead tell us WHAT the actual representation that should be used and go from there.
Right now all that happens is like a rat in a box. You hit it when it goes for food, you hit when it tries to drink, you hit it when it moves. It gets to a point to decides that the best action to not be hut is to just sit in the corner and die. Or just ignore you, bite you and do its own thing.
One of Sarkeesian's planned videos is "Positive Female Characters!" Prayers answered!
@ultimatepunchrod I suggest you read this. Particularly the part where the Catwoman comic shows readers her breasts, ass, and curves for two pages before you ever get to see her face. This is objectification, but keep in mind that this is not the ONLY problem feminists fight against. Also, your description of bulging muscles is a description of the male power fantasy I talked about earlier, not objectification of men (which does exist, the article has a good example of it).
@Korwin said:
"Discussions" (see thinly veiled shit flinging matches) over sexism in any form are infuriating to me. Does sexism exist? Yep, and on both sides of the fence and in a number different (at times subversive) ways. People need to learn to stfu, accept each others differences and try to live with each other.
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
Where are you from then? Bizarro land?
I'm from a world where women almost 20% of women are raped. (vs. 3% of men).
A world where 8 out of the 10 movies nominated for best picture didn't even have a scene where two women talked to each other for a full minute about something that wasn't a man.
A world where a near-naked woman is a reward in a video game.
A world where many women can't walk down the street without being told to "smile" by some asshole, catcalled by some prick or be the subject of some perv on the subway's nasty desires as he rubs one out.
A world where movies about men are "movies" while movies about women are "chick flicks."
A world where women still have to fight for basic health care rights while men get their health insurance to cover Viagra.
A world where women still make less money than men.
And, of course, a world where a woman trying to do an educational documentary series online (for free) gets insulted, threatened and harassed for no good reason.
The only people who say "stfu and deal" are the people who are on top, trying to stop those fighting for equal rights.
@PeasantAbuse said:
I like the idea of what she's doing, but I don't see why she needs thousands of dollars to make YouTube videos.
brb dropping $1000 on a Skype call and some stickers.
She has to buy the games, play the games, do the research, possibly interview people, shoot the videos, edit the videos, and possibly buy new equipment do to all of this. That shit costs money, and it takes time (which, btw, is money). It would even out to probably a feature-length documentary at the end of the day. Six grand is a fair amount to ask for. She obviously got a lot more, and I assume she'll use all of it to make the series even better.
@PixelPrinny:
Mai Shiranui is in a relationship with Terry Bogard in the KOF/Fatal Fury Series and they are both on different teams. Michelle Chang and Julia Chang are mother and daughter, and in the Tekken series. Milia Rage was in the relationship with Zato-1 before he died, the first time in guilty gear and Ky and Dizzy end up getting married. Just off the top of my head, those are a few fighting game women from larger franchises that have families but are still in fighting games. I'm sure there are more, but there have been too many of them for me to sort in my brain.
@pyromagnestir:
There have been just about a metric ton of shit thrown at Irrational on how Elizabeth has been sexualized, in my opinion, she is more an innocent than a sexed up tart. But I digress. The game takes place in a time where corsets and push up brazeers(sp?) were part of the normal fashion. Many people criticized her large chest, but, if you've ever seen a woman in garb like that, it can mash just about any amount of cleavage together to seem larger than it actually is.
@depecheload said:
@Korwin said:
"Discussions" (see thinly veiled shit flinging matches) over sexism in any form are infuriating to me. Does sexism exist? Yep, and on both sides of the fence and in a number different (at times subversive) ways. People need to learn to stfu, accept each others differences and try to live with each other.
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
Where are you from then? Bizarro land?
I'm from a world where women almost 20% of women are raped. (vs. 3% of men).
A world where 8 out of the 10 movies nominated for best picture didn't even have a scene where two women talked to each other for a full minute about something that wasn't a man.
A world where a near-naked woman is a reward in a video game.
A world where many women can't walk down the street without being told to "smile" by some asshole, catcalled by some prick or be the subject of some perv on the subway's nasty desires as he rubs one out.
A world where movies about men are "movies" while movies about women are "chick flicks."
A world where women still have to fight for basic health care rights while men get their health insurance to cover Viagra.
A world where women still make less money than men.
And, of course, a world where a woman trying to do an educational documentary series online (for free) gets insulted, threatened and harassed for no good reason.
The only people who say "stfu and deal" are the people who are on top, trying to stop those fighting for equal rights.
You also live in a world where she got over 53k of the 6k she asked for initially so it appears she also has plenty of support?
@depecheload said:
@Korwin said:
"Discussions" (see thinly veiled shit flinging matches) over sexism in any form are infuriating to me. Does sexism exist? Yep, and on both sides of the fence and in a number different (at times subversive) ways. People need to learn to stfu, accept each others differences and try to live with each other.
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
Where are you from then? Bizarro land?
I'm from a world where women almost 20% of women are raped. (vs. 3% of men).
A world where 8 out of the 10 movies nominated for best picture didn't even have a scene where two women talked to each other for a full minute about something that wasn't a man.
A world where a near-naked woman is a reward in a video game.
A world where many women can't walk down the street without being told to "smile" by some asshole, catcalled by some prick or be the subject of some perv on the subway's nasty desires as he rubs one out.
A world where movies about men are "movies" while movies about women are "chick flicks."
A world where women still have to fight for basic health care rights while men get their health insurance to cover Viagra.
A world where women still make less money than men.
And, of course, a world where a woman trying to do an educational documentary series online (for free) gets insulted, threatened and harassed for no good reason.
The only people who say "stfu and deal" are the people who are on top, trying to stop those fighting for equal rights.
At least you removed the thin veil...
@sodapop7 said:
@depecheload said:
@Korwin said:
"Discussions" (see thinly veiled shit flinging matches) over sexism in any form are infuriating to me. Does sexism exist? Yep, and on both sides of the fence and in a number different (at times subversive) ways. People need to learn to stfu, accept each others differences and try to live with each other.
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
Where are you from then? Bizarro land?
I'm from a world where women almost 20% of women are raped. (vs. 3% of men).
A world where 8 out of the 10 movies nominated for best picture didn't even have a scene where two women talked to each other for a full minute about something that wasn't a man.
A world where a near-naked woman is a reward in a video game.
A world where many women can't walk down the street without being told to "smile" by some asshole, catcalled by some prick or be the subject of some perv on the subway's nasty desires as he rubs one out.
A world where movies about men are "movies" while movies about women are "chick flicks."
A world where women still have to fight for basic health care rights while men get their health insurance to cover Viagra.
A world where women still make less money than men.
And, of course, a world where a woman trying to do an educational documentary series online (for free) gets insulted, threatened and harassed for no good reason.
The only people who say "stfu and deal" are the people who are on top, trying to stop those fighting for equal rights.
You also live in a world where she got over 53k of the 6k she asked for initially so it appears she also has plenty of support?
Yeah, but women aren't as entitled as men, not by a long shot. That was my point.
@Korwin said:
@depecheload said:
@Korwin said:
"Discussions" (see thinly veiled shit flinging matches) over sexism in any form are infuriating to me. Does sexism exist? Yep, and on both sides of the fence and in a number different (at times subversive) ways. People need to learn to stfu, accept each others differences and try to live with each other.
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
Where are you from then? Bizarro land?
I'm from a world where women almost 20% of women are raped. (vs. 3% of men).
A world where 8 out of the 10 movies nominated for best picture didn't even have a scene where two women talked to each other for a full minute about something that wasn't a man.
A world where a near-naked woman is a reward in a video game.
A world where many women can't walk down the street without being told to "smile" by some asshole, catcalled by some prick or be the subject of some perv on the subway's nasty desires as he rubs one out.
A world where movies about men are "movies" while movies about women are "chick flicks."
A world where women still have to fight for basic health care rights while men get their health insurance to cover Viagra.
A world where women still make less money than men.
And, of course, a world where a woman trying to do an educational documentary series online (for free) gets insulted, threatened and harassed for no good reason.
The only people who say "stfu and deal" are the people who are on top, trying to stop those fighting for equal rights.
At least you removed the thin veil...
Okay, color me dense, what are you talking about?
@Salarn: Here is my evidence . .every oversexualized game ever . . .I know that it is great to think about games as art. But the truth is, for every bit of artistic vision a game contains, there is an equal part influence from a marketing team. Sexualized elements in games aren't JUST in games because some dude in the developing team can't stand not looking at boobs all the time. Women are represented as such because we positively reinforce the industry with our money when they are oversexualized. Also that article about "Why sex doesn't sell" was bullshit . .I would tell you why but my daughter literally just barfed over every part of my bed. So maybe I am suffering bad karma for disagreeing with you . . .sorry Salam! . .Sorry universe!
@mystakin: You know these comics are aimed for men , we like that so they make it so. If women did the same we wouldnt care , if they like that go ahead its only the women who always try to change us to what they want. And no im not saying that we have the right to tell women in real life how to dress act etc. but comics , video games and a lot of enterteinment is made to be male power fantasies , we like it like that , is not our fault that female programers/artist dont make stuff that females would like. Blame them not us.
@Anund said:
Maybe it's that I am male, but I just don't see that much sexism in games. Both men and women are taken to the extreme: the men are all fit and unrealistcally muscled, the women are thin with big breasts. That sort of provides eye candy for both sexes.
Now, the behaviour of the actual people playing the games... that is a different thing all together.
I'm going to talk to this point.
huge boobs: male fantasy
huge muscles: also male fantasy
See the problem there?
@OppressiveStink: Thank ya for the examples, though Michelle and Julia being mother and daughter isn't exactly a romantic relationship ;P If you're gonna start listing those sorts of things, may as well list Forest and Marshall Law as father / son, Gen being Chun Li's uncle... sorta, Yun / Yang being brothers, etc.
Though you've reminded me that there were a few couples in Project Justice... I think two of the Team America members were a couple as were two of the delinquents...
We have much bigger things to worry about than sexism in video games because video games are just a hobby. I don't care if video games never gets the recognition that movies or literature have, i just like playing them. So I'll never understand the anti-sexist crusade. Shit, i like boobies in my video games. I don't know why anyone would want to change that.
I'm still really not convinced that it's possible to have a discussion or a debate about this properly. You can have a civil talk about it, but the fact of the matter is that guys can't really comment on how girls feel about the situation, and girls can't really comment fully on how guys feel about it either.
I mean, you can say "well it's a guys power fantasy to be muscle bound, aggression fueled, and a total womanizer." but that's not true of all guys. Just like not all girls find the same things attractive in a guy, and not all guys find the same things attractive in a woman, and not all women want to look a certain way. Obviously there's a "majority" of how each gender feels, but on an individual level, and even on the majority level we're basically talking about wanting to change things - thoughts, behaviors, preferences, whatever, that have been in place for thousands of years. Some of the specifics might have changed - like whether or not certain appearances are considered 'appealing' or not, but the fundamental nature of "women try to look attractive towards what men find attractive" is true (which, unfortunately, tends to be set forth by a majority, or, by those in control of the media, or, by both the media presenting an idea under the belief that 'this is what is attractive' and by the viewers buying into 'this is what is attractive' and then reinforcing the media's belief.)
Not that things can't change, and not that games shouldn't aim to be better about it, but, I believe that they have been aiming to be better about it. It may not always seem apparent because someone will always point to some grievous offender, and I do agree that more female leads/female centered games could be a good thing. It could also be a bad thing though if it's done poorly, or if they're just bad games, or if they strictly make said games to try to appeal only to males or only to females.
I also question how afraid companies are of putting females in a lead role because of how people will take it. I mean, let's look at the new Tomb Raider game. She gets beat up in that game. Ok, maybe she gets beat up a bit more than she needs to, but, she gets beat up in the game. People instantly jumped on that as "oh this is just like torture porn or something for people that like watching women get beat up." But look at how many games have male leads that constantly get the shit kicked out of them and they're just thought to be bad-asses or what have you. As a game company, if you have zero name recognition to your game and are trying to establish a new IP, do you really want to take the risk that people will just jump on your game and label it torture porn because your main character gets beat up? Or look at Bayonetta, that game was criticized due to the main character. Regardless of the rest of the game around her, it was criticized strictly because of her by people without looking at the rest of the package and realizing "oh, the whole game is just this totally crazy thing and her being totally over the top is pretty much just in line with the entire thing, but, she's also a strong female lead."
One answer, sure, is to simply have female characters in roles that are not so aggressive and violent. But that is a large portion of the games out there that sell big. Diversifying their roles in games could help, and I'm all for it. But you can't also say "they shouldn't be in that role at all" because then you're still participating in sexism by saying they shouldn't fill a role that guys, traditionally, fill(ed.)
So in the end, you can have a conversation about it, but until the people in charge are the ones taking the steps to try and change things, and are getting an equal amount of male and female input, and take both equally, and are pulling from diverse groups even within their input, I don't know what end it really can serve. But I guess you have to start somewhere, and have to try to start changing perceptions and beliefs one person at a time, right? So maybe there is something to be had by it. By no means is it something that will happen quickly or without an incredible amount of work from a lot of different people.
@depecheload said:
@Korwin said:
@depecheload said:
@Korwin said:
"Discussions" (see thinly veiled shit flinging matches) over sexism in any form are infuriating to me. Does sexism exist? Yep, and on both sides of the fence and in a number different (at times subversive) ways. People need to learn to stfu, accept each others differences and try to live with each other.
Where I'm from women are just as entitled as men are and have been for some time.
Where are you from then? Bizarro land?
I'm from a world where women almost 20% of women are raped. (vs. 3% of men).
A world where 8 out of the 10 movies nominated for best picture didn't even have a scene where two women talked to each other for a full minute about something that wasn't a man.
A world where a near-naked woman is a reward in a video game.
A world where many women can't walk down the street without being told to "smile" by some asshole, catcalled by some prick or be the subject of some perv on the subway's nasty desires as he rubs one out.
A world where movies about men are "movies" while movies about women are "chick flicks."
A world where women still have to fight for basic health care rights while men get their health insurance to cover Viagra.
A world where women still make less money than men.
And, of course, a world where a woman trying to do an educational documentary series online (for free) gets insulted, threatened and harassed for no good reason.
The only people who say "stfu and deal" are the people who are on top, trying to stop those fighting for equal rights.
At least you removed the thin veil...
Okay, color me dense, what are you talking about?
Everything you have listed here is a problem of a human kind, not one that centers around the legal rights of women (well with the exception of the dick pills, but that's not a thing in Australia).
I'm from a world where women almost 20% of women are raped. (vs. 3% of men). - Yep, and it's a horrific statistic. It's also the result of horrible people doing horrible things.
A world where 8 out of the 10 movies nominated for best picture didn't even have a scene where two women talked to each other for a full minute about something that wasn't a man. - Is this sexist? You bet your ass. But there is nothing preventing this from changing beyond the individuals responsible, and they should step up their game.
A world where a near-naked woman is a reward in a video game. - See above.
A world where many women can't walk down the street without being told to "smile" by some asshole, catcalled by some prick or be the subject of some perv on the subway's nasty desires as he rubs one out. - Yep, douche bags. But this behaviour is not condoned by Law or most of western society in general.
A world where movies about men are "movies" while movies about women are "chick flicks." - We also live in a world where 2 really good male mates hanging out together is a Bromance, sometimes labels are applied to things simply due to the context in which it's presented. I've certainly heard the term "guy movie" thrown around before... and considering the movies they're in reference to that analogy is probably apt.
A world where women still have to fight for basic health care rights while men get their health insurance to cover Viagra. - Already covered.
A world where women still make less money than men. - Not where I'm from, at least not within the confines of the law.
And, of course, a world where a woman trying to do an educational documentary series online (for free) gets insulted, threatened and harassed for no good reason. - Again, douche bags.
The only people who say "stfu and deal" are the people who are on top, trying to stop those fighting for equal rights. - I live in a country where the 3 most powerful heads of state (The Prime Minister, The Governor General and The Monarch) are all women. Five out of 7 bosses I have had in my working life time were women. The national health care scheme covers all women's health needs (pap smears, birth control and cervical cancer vaccinations).
Again, I'm not denying the existence of sexist attitudes because they exist (on both sides of the fence). However legally there is little to distinguish women and men. When it comes to the attitude side of things the best I can do as with all things is simply try and lead by example.
This thread is amazing.
@Aetheldod said:
@mystakin: You know these comics are aimed for men , we like that so they make it so. If women did the same we wouldnt care , if they like that go ahead its only the women who always try to change us to what they want. And no im not saying that we have the right to tell women in real life how to dress act etc. but comics , video games and a lot of enterteinment is made to be male power fantasies , we like it like that , is not our fault that female programers/artist dont make stuff that females would like. Blame them not us.
The problem is the ratio of comics aimed at men vs. comics aimed at everyone (not just women, everyone). There's nothing wrong with a movie like Rambo by itself. But when the entire film industry is just Rambo films and you never get Saving Private Ryan, what value does film really have as a medium? It's all one perspective, one story. I would like to see comics and games that promote an alternative perspective, enough that the balance is more in line with the actual gender balance in the population. Treating female characters like human beings and not objects of desire or reward would be a plus, too. You don't need to have 1-dimensional female character to have a game or movie aimed at men (See: Avengers).
That's not to say there are NO comics/movies/games that meet that description, just that most don't. I, personally, am incredibly excited to see how Tomb Raider turns out. It has the potential to be something truly groundbreaking and incredible.
@Salarn said:
Nobody is asking for the complete removal of all sexy female characters
I would ask for this provided they were all put in a fighting game, DOA:XBB-style. But with actual fighting instead of jiggle-games.
@depecheload:
I'm going to try and reply to this, because I feel there needs to be some balance to what you've posted. The numbers that you're quoting aren't as cut and dried as you think. That's why there needs to be a little levelheadedness and reasonability when participating in a discussion such as this.
Before I go into my reply, I'd also like to say, for the majority of my position, I am a feminist (though in a bit of a different light than most feminists) and I realize that there's quite a bit more ground to cover, but in an honest argument, everyone has to tune down the hyperbole. I will reply to your points, in order, so here goes!
I'm from a world where women almost 20% of women are raped. (vs. 3% of men)
Men get raped to about the tune of 10%. Rape isn't just a woman thing to deal with, it's a man thing to deal with too, a majority of men who are raped do not come forward. Please don't make light of the amount of male rape that exists, it devalues your argument and makes you seem narrow minded.
A world where 8 out of the 10 movies nominated for best picture didn't even have a scene where two women talked to each other for a full minute about something that wasn't a man.
The movie thing is spot on, I think this would be remedied by more women in the creation of media. This would take a significant change in the way girls are brought up into women and a significant change in perceived gender roles. The responsibility doesn't land fully in the lap of men on this one, women share the responsibility in bolstering creativity and leadership in the rearing of offspring.
A world where a near-naked woman is a reward in a video game.
The only recent game I can think that you get rewarded with naked ladies for being a badass in a game(recently) is Metroid, which is kind of ironic, because the badass you're being is the woman you're seeing de-armored. Though, there is even more tasteless examples such as the orgy sequences in God of War, but I don't really think that is a reward for doing well, I think that's a case of having sex and violence in the same package.
A world where many women can't walk down the street without being told to "smile" by some asshole, catcalled by some prick or be the subject of some perv on the subway's nasty desires as he rubs one out.
People can be dicks(and bitches,) that's the peril of living in a society in which all people exist. I can only surmise that this happens often to women, but I have as many anecdotes to where I was straight up sexually harassed at work by a woman and felt up by an old lady at a bar. Hell, a sixteen year old girl catcalled me not too long ago! I'm guessing this, as with male rape, goes mostly unreported. Also, I think people masturbating on the subway are people with mental issues more than gender equality issues.
A world where movies about men are "movies" while movies about women are "chick flicks."
This is probably one of the more hyperbolic statements you've made, but most Romantic Comedies aren't aimed at men, which is why they're deemed so. Most action films are "guy movies" in which, they're marketed to young males. You'll see that the majority of the movies you blasted earlier(the nominated ones) are rather gender neutral in theme. There are no "chick flicks" or "Dick flicks" nominated.
A world where women still have to fight for basic health care rights while men get their health insurance to cover Viagra.
I would chalk up the reproductive rights to a more of a religious repression than a sex-based one. The church population is a majority female population (http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2011-10/why-do-men-stay-away) so, I think I would dain to think that you may want to tune your equality argument to not include this one so much.
A world where women still make less money than men.
As far as women making less than men overall, there is some truth to that number, there are too few female CEOs and leaders. That being said, if you parse the numbers, they don't exactly paint a horribly discriminatory picture (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303592404577361883019414296.html).
And, of course, a world where a woman trying to do an educational documentary series online (for free) gets insulted, threatened and harassed for no good reason.
This last point is where I would agree with you. The comments stated on that recent blog post and youtube video are downright vile, though, I tend to believe it's a kneejerk reaction from those who feel that her stance is an aggressive one toward the way they live their lives. Video games are important to a lot of us, this medium, especially, breeds a tightly knit community. You can say you like games and almost instantly, you and another "gamer" have something to talk about. When people identify with something as deeply as this, they tend to get a bit mean and gross when they perceive a threat, I don't believe that the reaction to this is genuine sexism.
You'll see this activity in children, hell, I saw it myself today. I was bringing in my groceries and one kid was sitting down, angry and yelling and another kid. Apparently, one of the other children had gotten his cell phone wet during a water gun fight and was a bit pissed about it. The one that was getting yelled at, in defense of himself, called the other kid fat, and squirted him again with the water gun. What we can gather from this is when someone is confronted with something that they feel strongly about, they react strongly and often, in a very petty manner. In this case, it was the kid with the squirt gun's pride as the other kids were watching him get chewed out.
I think when you put yourself out to be part of a critique on media, you have to be ready to be critiqued yourself, by both people who don't like you and people who are petty. When you take on something as emotionally charged as this, there are inevitable pitfalls. Hopefully someday we can transcend this type of childish bullshit, but for now, you seriously are going to have to deal with people being shitheads on the internet.
@mystakin said:
@Akyho said:
I am all for feminism. However can we just stop having people point out "This is not a true representative of women. It is sexist." Instead tell us WHAT the actual representation that should be used and go from there.
Right now all that happens is like a rat in a box. You hit it when it goes for food, you hit when it tries to drink, you hit it when it moves. It gets to a point to decides that the best action to not be hut is to just sit in the corner and die. Or just ignore you, bite you and do its own thing.
One of Sarkeesian's planned videos is "Positive Female Characters!" Prayers answered!
I first said to myself "Well thats all right." Then researched PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT!!! SPIT TAKE AND A HALF!!! It only took $15,000 to get to it!
Stretch Goals
And! it was originally stated as "$15,000 - Special Video To Be Announced If Goal Magically Reached!" in the subset of extra videos to validate earning more than the initial $6,000. It comes as Number 11?
Nope nope nope nope. Her business model is disgusting. This is just shameless profiteering on a decent cause done in a bad way. I condemn it .
I say profiteering. Even if she methodically makes sure that every single penny is spent in a direct way to fund the documentaries with out taking some cream off the top. She will profit with this added to her profile and some to maybe alot of media attention.
I do not see any point to the video series except for Positive Female characters. That is 11th on the list!? I only see more harm than good. Its horrible.
@mystakin: Well Saving Private Ryan is male fantasy x 10000 ..... (ok sorry , Im being a trollish person :/) But honstly why should I have to change what like , and this is the point , you want for everyone/females to be made , well , its the people duty to do it , not to preach about it. If say that gal wants a vidogame less sexist/more focused for women , well instead of waisting peoples timesand money in forcing change on others , she should make the game ... actions speak louder than words. And as if there werent 1 dimentional male characters in female oriented enterteinment , but you see us men doing a fuss about it? We may make fun of it but we are not doing documentaries , reports and the like to change that because we actually from time to time , live and let live [and now Im just typing nonsense ... as if we really did that anyway :P , sorry about that but I really do like like my Cammys , Mai Shiranuis etc.]
@PixelPrinny:
Oh! You reminded me, Rival Schools had Hideo and Kyoko that were in a relationship. I think Hinata and Batsu too, not sure though.
@OppressiveStink: Guy movies don't get nominated? Oh, you must mean besides
The Dark Knight
Avatar
There Will Be Blood
127 Hours
Moneyball
Inception
District 9
Inglorious Basterds
The Fighter
True Grit
No Country For Old Men
as opposed to...The Help?
I've been enjoying this thread, but wait, isn't Mrs. Male Character and Man with Boobs the same trope? I'm just basing that off of the titles but first impression makes it seem like they both deal with characters that are women but are written in such a way to be practically indistinguishable from men.
@OppressiveStink: Naw, not Hinata and Batsu... officially, at least. Though I'm pretty sure pretty much everyone assumed they were an item by the end of Project Justice if not before it. Batsu was too busy just wanting to be the best like no one ever was to really care about relationship stuff within the games. (Although maybe that spinoff game that was never released over here delves into relationship stuff more...)
@Example1013:
I don't think you really understand what I was insinuating a "guy movie" was. I was thinking more along the lines of the A-Team and The Expendables. Most of the movies you've listed have significant artistic merit. Just in case you haven't seen a majority of them, I went through some of the ones you mislabeled as a "guy flick".
True Grit - Main character was driven teenage girl
No Country for Old men - Adaption of one hell of a cormac mccarthy book, have you even seen this movie?
Inglorious Basterds - the main character is a young Jewish woman who plans murderous revenge.
District 9 - A comment on apartheid and racial equality
Avatar - A cripple in a smurf outfit is saved by the blue woman he falls in love with?
@Jynxx said:
After viewing this thread, it seems to me that a lot of men seem to think they know a lot about sexism.
Men or boys? I hope the latter.
@Example1013: Nowhere was it said (from what I could see) that "guys movies don't get nominated"... Also, I feel that some of those are neutral. Avatar dealt with environmentalism and had strong, supporting female roles. Honestly, I couldn't care less about the lead male role. 127 Hours seemed applicable to any story of human triumph. The setting and activity also seems gender neutral, in my opinion. District 9 was sci-fi and had political overtones. Unless you're suggesting that sci-fi is inherently male-oriented, I don't see it. It's probably a matter of perspective.
If we're going to associate all "action" movies as "guy movies," then I think our perspectives on what constitutes sexism is the problem. Some of these movies don't seem to demean women in any form. I'd be willing to wager that they don't at all.
Edit: I see it now. But as OppresiveStink reiterated: Dick Flick is more relevant to "The Expendables" and "The A-Team"... Not you're generic "action" movie with alternative artistic value.
@Akyho said:
@mystakin said:
@Akyho said:
I am all for feminism. However can we just stop having people point out "This is not a true representative of women. It is sexist." Instead tell us WHAT the actual representation that should be used and go from there.
Right now all that happens is like a rat in a box. You hit it when it goes for food, you hit when it tries to drink, you hit it when it moves. It gets to a point to decides that the best action to not be hut is to just sit in the corner and die. Or just ignore you, bite you and do its own thing.
One of Sarkeesian's planned videos is "Positive Female Characters!" Prayers answered!
I first said to myself "Well thats all right." Then researched PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT!!! SPIT TAKE AND A HALF!!! It only took $15,000 to get to it!
Stretch Goals
- $7,500 - Voodoo Priestess/Tribal Sorceress (Tropes Video #6)
- $9,000 - Women as Reward (Tropes Video #7)
- $10.500 - Mrs. Male Character (Tropes Video #8)
- $12,000 - "Ugly" = Evil (Tropes Video #9)
- $13,500 - Man with Boobs (Tropes Video #10)
- $15,000 - "Positive Female Characters!" (Tropes Video #11)
And! it was originally stated as "$15,000 - Special Video To Be Announced If Goal Magically Reached!" in the subset of extra videos to validate earning more than the initial $6,000. It comes as Number 11?
Nope nope nope nope. Her business model is disgusting. This is just shameless profiteering on a decent cause done in a bad way. I condemn it .
I say profiteering. Even if she methodically makes sure that every single penny is spent in a direct way to fund the documentaries with out taking some cream off the top. She will profit with this added to her profile and some to maybe alot of media attention.
I do not see any point to the video series except for Positive Female characters. That is 11th on the list!? I only see more harm than good. Its horrible.
The #1 thing you are taught in Media Studies classes is the concept of media literacy. Media literacy is, basically, educating people about how the media works, what tools they use to influence you, and what shortcuts(see: stereotypes) they use in storytelling. The point of making people media literate is to give them the tools to judge a piece of media critically and make a decision about the quality of that entertainment on their own. For that to work, you need to teach people the common tropes to look out for. Saying "Jade from BG&E is a strong female character" doesn't mean anything unless you know WHY she is and why others aren't.
Also, I'm not sure how "The video I want was #11 on her list, she must be profiteering!" makes any sense, by the way. You gave no reason why her Kickstarter is suddenly "disgusting" and "shameless" beyond the video you want to watch the most being one of the videos not in her original pitch. All popular Kickstarters have spill over goals, even Double Fine did.
@Aetheldod No one is asking you to change what you like. It's not about removing Rambo; it's about adding Saving Private Ryan (to run with my original analogy). As for making products they want to see, some do. The issue is, not every feminist is a game designer or film maker. I don't think I'm qualified to make a game or a film, but I'm certainly capable of spotting a "woman in a refrigerator" or a "manic pixie dream girl," two common female tropes in movies and comics. Giving people the tools to be media literate is the foundation of media studies as a social science.
I'm indifferent about sexism in games, but in the playerbase its horrid. I have a good female friend who's a gamer and she can't play any online multiplayer games without a near constant torrent of abuse. I've heard some really disgusting shit said to her too, stuff that could get you reported to police were it communicated on any other medium. It's really sad, and it doesn't even seem to be confined to the sorts of games where you'd expect an immature player base.
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