The state of today's jRPGs

I don't know what I will accomplish by writing this but there seems to be a worrying trend when it comes to new jRPGs when compared to tradition.

• More linearity.
• More focus on graphics than actual character indepth.
• No overworld maps to travel.

Why do you think the direction for new jRPGs are moving towards these points, Final Fantasy being the biggest example. And also, what modern current era games are more true to the traditional formula? The only jRPG I can think of for the 360 that holds true to the old formula, has a world map etc is Tales of Vesperia.

you should get a PS3 or a PSP. There is tons of non-square JRPGs.

Why do we need them to follow the same old formula? That is boooooooooooooooring. Which is exactly why I so loved FFXIII and FFXIII-2. I'm glad Squarenix tries new things even if they aren't always the "most popular" things. Also linearity is NOT a bad thing. I don't know why people think that is a dirty word. A linear game can be just as fun as a game that is more open ended and they both have their merit.

@Demoskinos said:

Why do we need them to follow the same old formula?

Because formulas work? If you're going to question the later results, then you must question the formula that created them, must you not?

@Demoskinos said:

Why do we need them to follow the same old formula?

Because formulas work? If you're going to question the later results, then you must question the formula that created them, must you not?

In the PS2 days I played mostly jRPGs, but any that I've played for this current generation have been really disappointing. Games like Enchanted Arms and Valkyria Chronicles do some really interesting things with they're battle systems but really lack on the story side of things. FF13 as well. Interesting battle system, but very poorly done story. Now perhaps I just out grew the genre, but seems to me that these developers have some really great ideas for combat and other systems but just keep repeating the same damn story and character tropes that they've been doing for years. Persona 4 was blessing, but it seems few have learned from it.

Of course I haven't checked out every one that has been released so there must be some hidden gems out there some where.

@Demoskinos said:

Why do we need them to follow the same old formula? That is boooooooooooooooring. Which is exactly why I so loved FFXIII and FFXIII-2. I'm glad Squarenix tries new things even if they aren't always the "most popular" things. Also linearity is NOT a bad thing. I don't know why people think that is a dirty word. A linear game can be just as fun as a game that is more open ended and they both have their merit.

Well said and the way people talk about the old FF games would make you think they had worlds as open as a game like Skyrim or something. They certainly did not, they were pretty damn linear, but also still great games. FF games are all about the story and battles, and for me FF13 was great in both those aspects, I look forward to playing FF13-2 when I get the time.

@Video_Game_King: Formulas also get tiring. I'd rather have interesting failures than churning out the same game's we've been playing since the SNES days.

@D_W said:

Valkyria Chronicles do some really interesting things with they're battle systems but really lack on the story side of things.

you should really play Xenoblade...

sidenote: haven't Japanese RPGs started out as pretty linear? FF I and II, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana come to mind. They're all pretty much following a linear set of objectives.

nier had terrible graphics but good characters

lost Odyssey had pretty good graphics an open world and a good story

resonance of fate had a good combat system and nolan north

your second point makes no sense since characters are developed just as much as they were back then (I'd argue even more now)

@nail1080: You'll adore FFXIII-2 then. Its leagues better than the first in many aspects. There are small tweaks to the combat system that are fantastic and they fixed things that were wrong with it like the leader dies = game over bullshit. And the monster thing is tons of fun and a great idea. If you haven't already scored a copy you should keep your eyes on Amazon. Its been on sale for dirt cheap multiple times over the last few weeks.

@connerthekewlkid said:

nier had terrible graphics but good characters

lost Odyssey had pretty good graphics an open world and a good story

resonance of fate had a good combat system and nolan north

Not to mention the overworld system in Resonance of Fate was bonkers. Loved that.

@Demoskinos: oh yeah the whole trying to get the puzzle pieces to match thing was pretty cool

@Demoskinos said:

@Video_Game_King: Formulas also get tiring.

That doesn't make any sense. "'x=(-b+/-(sqrt(b^2-4ac)))/2a'? God, that's so fucking boring! Come up with something original, you math hacks!"

@Cloudenvy: The story in Valkyria Chronicles awful. It's like it was written by a high school student. The characters do things only so there could be a certain boss battle or special condition. The characters are flat and cookie cutter. The plot twists can be seen from miles away.

@D_W: And then it has the best ending ever!

Sadly I don't really see us getting a new Valkyria Chronicles (wich is more of a strategy game than an RPG but whatever SEGA doesn't even want to bring the third to america) and a "big budget" SMT game looks like is far from being made anytime soon so maybe hold on to Persona 5 , Final Fantasy Versus XIII and Nino Kuni?

@hummersoppa said:

• More linearity.
• More focus on graphics than actual character indepth.
• No overworld maps to travel.

To be honest the only worrying point here is the graphics over character depth (assuming this is true in development).

Linearity is not a terrible thing in itself. This does mean however that the core story and gameplay has to be able to justify no freedom for the player. I find that the lack of an accessible story to a western audience is why linearity has become an issue for most jrpgs.

The overworld map point I don't understand. This seems to me more like a remedy to linearity more than anything else. However a boring overworld is just as bad, if not worse to a game, than a linear story.

@Demoskinos: im not gonna lie i almost went out and bought 13-2 when i saw you could get Gilgamesh as a party member

JRPGs, or character RPGs, are fine.

@connerthekewlkid said:

@Demoskinos: im not gonna lie i almost went out and bought 13-2 when i saw you could get Gilgamesh as a party member

$20 right now on Amazon! No better time to jump in! http://www.amazon.com/Final-Fantasy-XIII-2-Playstation-3/dp/B003O6JIVE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339984129&sr=8-1

JRPGs, broadly, are fine, and I wish people would stop jumping on the hilariously outdated 'they're all the same, they're dying!!' bandwagon. It is perhaps the most creative and varied genre in video games right now, and it's mostly people who don't have recent experience with the genre that claim otherwise.

@connerthekewlkid said:

@Demoskinos: im not gonna lie i almost went out and bought 13-2 when i saw you could get Gilgamesh as a party member

Please don't. JRPG are fine, Final Fantasy isn't.

JRPG's lost me when the genre moved more towards complicated combat systems, high production values, and voice acting. As story heavy as this genre usually is, I think the choice to make it big budget in that way hurt the quality of the writing in many cases. The charm for me was simple combat system with strong character development and story arc. Now it's complicated combat systems and frequently poor, convoluted storylines stretched for length.

Voice acting has soured me on RPG's in general. It's so limiting. Skyrim would be much more enjoyable to me if the whole world didn't sound like it was being voiced by five guys. I would much prefer text dialogue over that.

I haven't really been playing JRPG's this gen but can someone please give me an example of a JRPG aside from Final Fantasy* that's a linear graphical showcase? It seems like none of the other "big" names (Xenoblade, Valkyrie, Souls, Tales, Disgaea) have the listed problems...I shouldn't even say problems since not even character depth is something that's necessary.

*I haven't played Final Fantasy XIII or XIII-2 so I don't know how I feel about that game.

I don't get why everyone feels they need an open world in JRPGs. It's not as though traveling this world is ever especially interesting. It's usually just a bunch of random encounters, getting lost, and me giggling when I see how huge my character model is compared to towns.

The problem with modern JRPGs is their dependence on bad anime cliches. The androgynous, over-eager main character, general angstiness, memory loss, chosen ones, female characters only characterized by their gender and the fact that they are pretty, etc.

I absolutely hated the combat system in FF XIII. It's just auto-pilot fighting while you endlessly shift paradigms. And why does every character able to play all the roles? The whole purpose of having a party is that each character should be good at different things.

I thought the story and characters in FF XIII were interesting enough. The only reason I made it into FF XIII as far as I did before I gave up for good was because of wanting to see what happened with the story.

@Video_Game_King said:

@Demoskinos said:

@Video_Game_King: Formulas also get tiring.

That doesn't make any sense. "'x=(-b+/-(sqrt(b^2-4ac)))/2a'? God, that's so fucking boring! Come up with something original, you math hacks!"

There is a correct answer to a math problem, so you can use formulas to figure out what that is. There is no correct way to make a game, and when you try to use a specific formula for too long you can end up just crafting the same old shit. Which is not to say that I think every JRPG needs to rewrite the book. Theres room for more classic ones in addition to some that are trying to make something different.

@HerbieBug said:

Voice acting has soured me on RPG's in general. It's so limiting. Skyrim would be much more enjoyable to me if the whole world didn't sound like it was being voiced by five guys. I would much prefer text dialogue over that.

I love you.

@Hunter5024 said:

When you try to use a specific formula for too long you can end up just crafting the same old shit.

If it has become shit after such a long time, and it is the same as its predecessors, does that not mean that its predecessors are also shit?

@Red said:

I don't get why everyone feels they need an open world in JRPGs. It's not as though traveling this world is ever especially interesting. It's usually just a bunch of random encounters, getting lost, and me giggling when I see how huge my character model is compared to towns.

The problem with modern JRPGs is their dependence on bad anime cliches. The androgynous, over-eager main character, general angstiness, memory loss, chosen ones, female characters only characterized by their gender and the fact that they are pretty, etc.

These are two very good points. The old JRPG world we remember so fondly aren't so great when it comes to world structure. Its not like Final Fantasy 6 or Chrono Trigger were designed like Skyrim, you go from point A to B but there was an open world map to get lost in and about 4/5ths of the way through the game you get the chance to do the optional stuff that only helps you out for the last dungeon. No matter what Crono is going to have to go from Fair to midevil times to the future and so on. Final Fantasy XIII is built almost the same way but it doesn't trick you into thinking there are places to explore other than gran pulse.

The best world in a Final Fantasy game is probably XII if you think about it that way.

I don't play every JRPG around but what characters have been angsty recently? Or those other cliches you've mentioned? Androgyny is common yeah, but I must not play the ones where the female characters are only characterized by gender, every JRPG has the token 3 faces of eve characters.

@hummersoppa said:

I don't know what I will accomplish by writing this but there seems to be a worrying trend when it comes to new jRPGs when compared to tradition.

• More linearity.
• More focus on graphics than actual character indepth.
• No overworld maps to travel.

Why do you think the direction for new jRPGs are moving towards these points, Final Fantasy being the biggest example. And also, what modern current era games are more true to the traditional formula? The only jRPG I can think of for the 360 that holds true to the old formula, has a world map etc is Tales of Vesperia.

There is probably as much or more to say about a modern RPG character compare to a SNES era character. People tend to crap on FFXII and FFXIII but if you look there is characterization there.

I'd prefer maps that are kind of seamless and coherent as opposed to the "I'm a giant going into this tiny orea that is midgar."

@mitsuko_souma: And they are.... while each character can use any role every character has a specific role that they are best in Vanille is the best SAB while Hope is the best MED , Lightning is the best RAV , Fang the best COM, Sazh the best SYN and Snow the best SEN they can all excell in other roles but through maximum stat potential these are their best roles.

And the battles can be plenty thrilling. In tougher fights expert paradigm shifting is key to surviving. And you don't HAVE to auto battle ever. You can manually select attacks if you want but why waste time? Auto-battle is usually pretty good about picking exactly what you need to pick anyways for a fight. And its MUCH quicker to do that and again... FFXIII's battle system is all about speed.

@Video_Game_King said:

@Hunter5024 said:

When you try to use a specific formula for too long you can end up just crafting the same old shit.

If it has become shit after such a long time, and it is the same as its predecessors, does that not mean that its predecessors are also shit?

That depends on how you look at old games. If the original Legend of Zelda were released today exactly how it is without any of the nostalgia or history it would receive terrible reviews for being a shallow action adventure game with very little going on. The market is always evolving and if your formula doesn't evolve with it than you will be left behind. And some fans won't mind this really. I'd play a new Fire Emblem game just like 7 but with new characters and a new story until just about the end of time if they kept releasing them.

@Cloudenvy: The story in Valkyria Chronicles awful. It's like it was written by a high school student. The characters do things only so there could be a certain boss battle or special condition. The characters are flat and cookie cutter. The plot twists can be seen from miles away.

@Hunter5024:

I do wish to take you to town over the evolving standards thing and how that goes against how a game's quality works, but we can both agree that Fire Emblem fucking rules.

@Video_Game_King said:

@Hunter5024 said:

When you try to use a specific formula for too long you can end up just crafting the same old shit.

If it has become shit after such a long time, and it is the same as its predecessors, does that not mean that its predecessors are also shit?

If i chew and digest a fantastic steak, it will one day become shit, but some day we can all have our lives enriched by a genius that has a brain spark to turn that shit back into a delicious steak,

That of course is irrelevant because JRPgs have been doing new things since the "golden age." It isn't the same old shit, or the same old steak, this is the new shit, today we have new steak.

Get it?

@Demoskinos said:

Why do we need them to follow the same old formula? That is boooooooooooooooring. Which is exactly why I so loved FFXIII and FFXIII-2. I'm glad Squarenix tries new things even if they aren't always the "most popular" things. Also linearity is NOT a bad thing. I don't know why people think that is a dirty word. A linear game can be just as fun as a game that is more open ended and they both have their merit.

Yeah but some people prefer not that formula...

My problem with JRPGs is that they focus too much on children. I don't think I own a JRPG that features an entirely adult cast.

@Nottle:

Ah, but if are you to chew and digest a steak, you change it entirely; this does not happen with a video game. I'm more arguing against the logic behind criticizing JRPGs than arguing against the criticisms, but as you have found an entirely new argument from which to lambast it, this has become a moot point.

I do love me some overworld maps. I miss them dearly :(

It sounds like you should stop playing new Square rpgs, and play old Square rpgs.

Yes, older jRPGs might have been linear to an extent, but at least they had the illusion of being very open and large. The overworld map gave a the player a feeling of how the setting/the world that the adventure took part in looked. Even if there was an objective, say in town A - the player had the ability to explore the world before going there and so on. If you take FF13 for example, there is not even an ilussion of an open world since it's just a corridor. And yes - it opens up a bit in the end but it's still just pretty linear.

The newer RPGs also tend to be a little more "gritty" looking and less green and beautiful. Compare Final Fantasy 13 / Lost Odyseey etc with a game like Tales of Vesperia and No ni kuni and you understand what I mean. Games like Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Lufia 2 etc they all had some darker elements but newer games seem to be based upon cold, barren, molten, destroyed areas. Not many green, lush towns or warm environments anymore.

I just wish that story and setting was always prioritized over graphics and video sequences.