What's Next for Batman Games?

I've never gone form being so excited to so uninterested in a game as when I realised that Arkham Knight would just be another Arkham City. I've already played two Arkham City's and i was under the impression that this time, Rocksteady would actually bother to at least fake an ambiance of a living, breathing city. But nope, instead of the real Gotham we're given another bullshit excuse (in City it was a sectioned off prison area, in Origins it was Christmas and now it's the Scarecrow) for there to be no NPC's present so we can go about doing everything we've been doing for the past 3 Arkham games in the same structure. I haven't played Knight but it seems to have nothing that I hoped it would have.

• A living, breathing Gotham with NPCs (not on the scale of GTA, but something)
• Bat-mobile driving (not weird, unnecessary, floaty tank segments, seriously, WTF?!! just what the series needed, car combat???
• An expanded detective element, not L.A. Noire but something that shows a little more of that side of Batman
• A larger emphasis on Bruce Wayne and interactions outside of the main game, like maybe things don't take place over one stretch of time yet again, maybe you can explore as Bruce in the city by day and be Batman by night?

It feels like there's a ton of room for a proper Batman simulation. Imagine Rockstar's Batman game with Arkhams combat, it's begging to be made. What do you think the next big Batman game will be? I hope but expect it to be another one of these but made by a lesser developer like the team behind Origins.

Link to Blog.

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last couple of days, and I'd love for them to go in one of two directions:

1. Ditch Gotham, and go back to the Arkham Asylum model. Give us a contained, highly-detailed area with more linear progression. Tell a leaner story without superfluous side objectives.
2. Go all-in on an open-world Gotham, with a version of the nemesis system from Shadow of Mordor. Show the impact of crime on civilians and the toll being Batman takes on Bruce Wayne. Have more detective work and less running over minions with a tank.

No matter what Warner Bros. decides to do, they should let Rocksteady go and do their own thing and give the franchise to WB Montreal. Arkham Origins wasn't perfect, but they did a good job emulating the Rocksteady model in a relatively short development cycle and still managed to put their own spin on things. Given enough time and creative bandwidth, I bet they'd come up with something cool.

@conmulligan: Totally option 2 for me because we've already had option 1 in Asylum, but judging by their business practices i's say it's likely that they'll milk the series in the state its in currently without innovation.

I would like to see them go for another version of batman. There were rumours about Silver Age batman at one point. So maybe earth two batman?

I also really think they could expand on the whole informant system by stealing liberally from the nemesis system in shadow of mordor.
The one thing I really feel is missing from the games so far is the whole "world's greatest detective" angle. More fleshed out investigative systems, better systems for forensics, some sherlock holmes shit.

With the ability to interrogate thugs and incrementally finding the structure of some criminal gang or other along with the bitching combat and gadgets I think it could be amazing.

Oh man i forgot about how the GB crew was speculating about how perfect incorporating the nemesis system into batman would be.

Also the real answer is two more batmans.

@cairnsythebeard said:

I dunno, I'd still like to see them iterate on Arkham Asylum at some point. Just because they've done it once doesn't mean they can't do it better, you know? I'll admit that part of it is just open-world fatigue, but the idea of another Arkham game in the vein of City, Origins and Knight doesn't appeal to me at all.

@amafi said:

That's a good point. As someone who's never read the comics, my familiarity with Batman lore begins and ends with the games and movies, and one of things that's always bugged me about the Arkham series is that a lot of the characters and references go straight over my head. It'd be cool if they simplified some of that stuff and spent some time contextualising the world for those not familiar with the wider DC mythology. Even if they don't reset the games' continuity, they absolutely need to ditch the Arkham name. It makes no sense to keep shoehorning that into the title.

When does Aquaman get his second chance?

@ripelivejam: It would obviously have to be tweaked quite a bit, but part of Batman's power comes from his ability to intimidate, so turning street thugs into informants would make sense, as would doing things like wiretapping, etc. A more open structure where you're let loose in the city to hunt down information to find out who you're actually fighting would have made arkham knight much more interesting. Just saving the green guys for last to get map markers for the standalone puzzles is pretty weak, as interesting as the enigma puzzles can be.

I want to see batman in front of a cork board with photos of scumbags on it with postit notes and coloured string all over the fucking place. And I want to be able to come to the wrong conclusions instead of the game putting up progression blockers until you find the right answer. That's just not very satisfying, I find.

They could let you choose to stealth, puzzle, detect or fight through the game, Deus Ex style!

hopfully by not having one for a while.

id really want maybe an adverture game style mystery game.

@bradbrains: Telltale's Arkham Adventures

I want frogwares to make one using the new Sherlock Holmes engine. Crimes and punishments was so fucking good...and Holmes even has Batman vision in it!

And it'd at least make me and Justin McElroy happy.

Bring back the bosses. A city populated by civilians. I want Batman to be treated like a vigilante. The police should attack him. A denser city than Knight with older architecture.

@amafi: what you're proposing sounds awesome but would probably be hard to get into for the gaming audience at large, i fear. Hell, it sounds intiidating to me, as cool as that kind of game sounds. Also sounds ambitious as hell but don't know if that's a risk a company wants to take especially on as big of a franchise as batman. There'd also probably have to be a really dynamic branching system to shift the story and such if you screw up. Maybe there's some streamlining that could be done while adding more granularity and freedom to the system. I guess some doubted the nemesis system, but that turned out well in the end.

I woukdn't be surprised if Monolith was given the next game, though it's more likely they're on work on the next shadow of mordor (has that been confirmed?)

I mean something like that. to me the coolest moments that made me feel most like batman are the detective segments.I think that could be more than a single mission like the do in the arkham games. plus it avoids the issues of going back to that same formula.

plus it allows them to use the non comabt focused villains in batmans rouges gallery. some that wouldnt work in the arkham games

also id like to see a more focused interactive riddler story

Suicide Squad, Gotham City Impostors 2?

Ending related 100% ending shows batman taking down some thugs in a alley with fear toxin. Which probably means that Azrael will take over role as batman in the 4th game, and will result in destroying the batman rep. which then forces Bruce to comeback in 5th or near end of 4th game. Rocksteady have been taking stories out of comics so I can see this happening and it would make for an interesting story.

But I agree with ripelivejam on monolith taking over it makes sense when look at Shadow of Mordor and how similar those games are.

Plus Monolith have done decent pc ports in past so I would prefer them over console only Dev.

I haven't been able to pick up Arkham Knight yet so for all I know it might cover some of this.

I think the Batman game I'd love to make is a game where Bruce Wayne is stripped of his position of wealth and influence and also compromises his relationship with all of his supporting characters in such a way that they don't trust him anymore. A fugitive Batman who doesn't initially have access to any of his equipment and can't just call in help from his friends. Have him start out hiding in the slums trying to find out who or what led to this set of circumstances. More than simply having to reacquire his wealth and gadgets he has to make choices that will harm or reestablish his relationships with both his former allies (and foes). Give Bruce Wayne a chance to morally compromise himself at different points or the chance to choose the hard path that defines Batman. The end goal should be to establish the future of the Batman legacy in terms of wealth, reputation, and relationships. The easy path might lead to a wealthy Batman who is feared but fights his war alone using more armored suits, another path might might lead to him being a poor but ethically pure Bruce Wayne who relies on his detective skills and his contacts, maybe a path that leads to some of his former allies becoming villains, and so on.

Problem with Batman in the Arkham games it's gotten to be too much of a power fantasy in a way that's just this side of being the Punisher. Yeah, Batman doesn't run around killing criminals but as pointed out on the Beastcast he's still ridiculously brutal at times.

I was legitimately saddened to hear the Nemesis system had been built for an early Arkham sequel and then scrapped and promptly recycled for Shadow of Mordor. The Nemesis framework probably ended up functioning to a higher potential in Mordor than it would have in Arkham Knight, but that system could have added a lot of texture to a world that lots of players have described as feeling empty.

Pairing a Nemesis system with a kind of dynamic "detective" mini-game where Batman has to use subtle clues throughout the city to learn the whereabouts and armaments of his rivals rising to power in Gotham would've offered a novel twist on the concept.

@bradbrains: I really don't think they'd be able to do it for an entire game, but I can think of a bunch of ways they could implement more detectivy stuff into the main game loop. Just bringing in a few more ways of interacting with people and solving problems than using fists and grapnels would be a great change of pace.

But then I've always been a pretty hard core fan of police procedural/investigative/forensic stuff in games. If I could I'd make a game based on the wire but it'd be a Freamon simulator, not a Herc one. With a bunch of Homicide in it too. All the punching, shooting, and stabbing dudes in the neck and face stuff is cool, but it's nice with a break from it once in a while.

@historyinrust said:

Where'd you hear that?

I would say do a complete 180 of what is done now where its mostly detective stuff with a bit of action to break it up.

To me (and a lot of people) batman is more about the investigation, interrogation and detective work then fighting. make more fights like the mr.freeze.

I think the detective work can totally fill a game. obviously hes gonna have to punch a few few folks along the way.

@bradbrains: Oh, I think they could do it just fine, and I think I'd enjoy it a lot more if done well, I just don't think any publisher would fund it or enough people would buy it.

yea I agree with you on that.

On the Bombcast, though I can't recall the episode. I don't think it was ever confirmed, and it's possible I'm misunderstanding the thrust of that conversation entirely, so maybe I'm propagating untruths. There's a conversation wherein @brad mentions the Nemesis system's infancy. I think he even refers to this as a rumor, but there is more or less direct mention of the Nemesis concept being conceived as an Arkham game at some point early on.

Justice League of course.

@historyinrust said:

I had a quick Google around and came across this:

Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis system was inspired by elements of the Batman franchise, but the core features of the framework were built on lessons learned from sports games and pen-and-paper role-playing games.

Design director Michael de Plater said that while the much-praised system, one of the game's most standout features, seems like it would be at home in an Arkham game, it was dreamed up entirely from scratch after the studio decided on making a Lord of the Rings game. The idea to make a game set in Middle-earth came first, followed by the desire to create a unique enemy system with powerful combat to match.

So, it sounds like the Arkham series was an inspiration for the Nemesis system, but not actually the genesis of it. Still, it's such a perfect fit that it would a be shame if the two weren't married at some point.

My mistake then!

Too perfect a fit, I totally agree.

I agree with the people that mention the Shadow of Mordor nemesis system, but I would incorporate an important difference: make it possible to shut down an entire section (maybe having different armies, and once you defeat Joker, Penguin or Two-Faces, that army does not get repopulated). Near the end of Shadow of Mordor, I grew tired of the sense of futility the whole system has.

They'll be cranking out Batman games until we are sick of them and then pump out a few more after that. Batman: Arkham Origins proved WB could use another studio tomake an okay facsimile of the Rocksteady style. Personally I will be okay with a non-Rocksteady Batman game set in a different Earth (is it Marvel that uses universes and DC that uses Earths for alternate realities or vice-versa?) using the Nemesis system from Shadows of Mordor.

I think at most WB can do one more game in that Rocksteady style before they have to drastically change things up with entirely new game play mechanics.

Well there was that rumor going around that a Suicide Squad game was in development with WB Montreal at the helm.

As one of those weirdos who holds Origins in high regards, I liked it a helluva lot more than AK, I'm psyched to see what they do next.

There's a lot of great points here, but my main thing would be to have Batman look like he's not shooting up steroids. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but I really hate the look of Batman in these games.

Yeah I also liked Origins quite a lot. The voice acting and overall script writing was the best of the series. It had by far the best story of all the Arkham games, imo. I much preferred Origin's versions of Joker and Bane to Rocksteady's treatments of those characters.

If Rocksteady makes it, you'll play as the Joker hunting down the Joker to save a schoolbus full of Jokers.

I'd like to see a Harley and Poison Ivy dating simulator.

I'd like to see something more linear. Something like Arkham Asylum. Possibly a new art direction. I'd love a new Batman game in the style of the Animated Series.

If WB Montreal is making the next game, I'm gonna assume it's a Suicide Squad game judging by the end of Arkham Origins. Would tie it in nicely with the movie coming next year too.

They'll get the PC version working.

My favourite Batman stories are the horror stories. Villains like Croc and Solomon Grundy. I love the weird as hell Cthulhu vibe that most "Old Gotham" legends and stories have. I'd like a game steeped in that tone that focuses on the crazier elements of Bat lore. What I absolutely do not want is more of the same in terms of scale and plot. Arkham Knight has taken the Arkham formula as far as it can go. I'd like to see something more intimate and smaller scale than "Gotham is at risk" or "every villain ever wants to kill Batman tonight."

Oh and ghosts. I want ghosts. I may have just finished reading Batman Eternal, and the Arkham Asylum subplot may or may not have been my favourite part of that series.

Same, which is why I was bummed Croc wasn't in the game. If we follow him from Origins to Asylum, his mutations were only getting worse. By the time the whole evacuation came, he would have been an atrocity.

Game with five chapters (let's call them episodes), with the world impact of each separated from each other. Imagine Witcher 1 with it's chapters but all in a living Gotham. It would be like playing through different episodes or comic issues, instead of one big smashed/forced together story.

You take on one episode and when you're done with it, the world recover back to normal or some world effects of the previous episode carry over (like buildings being rebuilt by construction crews as you play through the next episode). This would have an evolutionary and lived in vibe and would allow for some variety in the world, but still allow every episode to work with the full Gotham altogether.

This episodic structure would allow for each story to move at a good pace and prevent unnecessary filler, keeping the player engaged. It gives the players the accessibility of knowing that they can play through a full story in a good time frame (7 hours per episode, let's say) and then put the game down, but still have content to come back to which gives the game value.

There is a crap ton of DC comic characters WB can use for games, they don't have to keep making Batman games. I want to see:

• A God of War style Aquaman game.
• A Tomb Raider 2013 style Green Arrow game.
• An Infamous style Flash game.
• A Metal Gear Solid style Suicide Squad game.
• An LA Noire\Silent Hill style John Constantine game.

I feel like Asylum was more in line with the Animated Series, and they progressively got more and more gritty and Nolan-y with each installment. So if anything I'd like them to go back in the other direction again.

That nemesis system thing could be cool, but only if the big bads at the top of the ladder were the big name villains themselves and not just yet another nameless thug but this time he resists your batnanas or whatever. Like, build the whole story around climbing the ladder to take out Two-Face etc. In Mordor the nemesis system felt completely separate from (what little there was) the narrative and had no affect on anything outside of the gameplay, and I feel like that doesn't work nearly as well when there are so many great villains at their disposal already.

Whatever it ends up being, the Joker will be the main villain... again.

@teddie: Yes I remember the first one having a comic book aesthetic even in its UI, which was discarded for computer-y effects.

@cairnsythebeard: @teddie: Well the first game was based after the actual comic book Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth and it looked like this:

I LOVE Batman.

However, I would like to see them expand the videogame Universe. Honestly, I do not care which DC character(c) they pick. Just have a cameo by Batman/Bruce Wayne to connect the games and you have my money.

Honestly, A Green Arrow game could work in the vein of Shadow of Mordor.

One Island is "The Island" (Think along the line of Tomb Raider, Boat crashes and your stuck on this island. You have to survive and explore for 'x' amount of time and eventually run into mercenary camp where you have to sneak in and get supplies/radio/whatever. When you get to your objective your caught and held captive. Eventually, you're freed by Deathstroke and you spend the next 8-9 hours trying to escape the Island doing various missions, exploration, etc.Then you finally make to the second area, which would be the City and its in complete shambles with crime. As someone said above with the Nemesis system, You could have 5-8( Count Vertigo, Cupid, Clock King, Trickster etc) minor rotating bosses working for 3-4 Bosses(China White, Bronze Tiger, Captain Cold) but all working working for 1 Major boss(Merlyn or Deathstroke). Typical chain of command. Implement the Dual- Play feature that was introduced in AK with Canary, Arsenal/Red Flash, Flash, Deathstroke(on the Island) throw in a crazy unlockable character for NG+ like Batman or Hawkman or Green Lantern.

Have a base where you do your upgrades, training missions, maybe customize your outfit ( small RPG type system)

Other than Superman & Wonder Woman, Arrow is probably the most recognizable hero on the DC roster(Thanks to the show) Plus Green Arrow can work easier in the confines of a game like this than those two.

An interesting youtuber's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvbnc-7Y0fE

I want to see a Batman game that's on par with the comics(Stories like The Court of Owls for example). Less focus on combat and more focus on being a detective, his family, the psychology, mystery and to see Arkham as it known in the comics. An Old and Dark city with old architecture. The Akrham games have painted Arkham as the next Las Vegas with their neon lights and LCD screens all over the city. An actual living city would also be nice, have different types of crimes like petty crimes and big heists as regular occurrences you could do but isn't necessary to completing a series of missions.

I also would like that there's an story being told instead of Here's the bad guy and now go after him, have Batman figure out who's behind it. Do research, ask and look around like you do in The Witcher. Give Batman and Bruce a personality and character or better said, make him a person instead of a mannequin that barely moves except his mouth when he talks to someone. He looked like a hand puppet most of the times.

And no more Joker please. Please. He is everywhere in Arkham Knight and I did not care for what he had to say, it was getting on my nerves.

I love Batman and it had been great games but it never really felt as being in an Batman story.

I hear Batman Arkham Knight is coming out for PC soon...
; )