What about an MMO without leveling?

One of the first MMOs, I guess we can call it that, I ever got really involved with was the original Guild Wars. It was, and still is, a very interesting experiment in taking the elements of major MMORPGs and reconfiguring them in a new and exciting way.
 
But let's just get to the fucking point. I was in a guild, right? And they were like "Yo, let's go do some fucking PvP." and I was like "I'm level 5." But then I realized I could just go make a max level character from the login screen, and I did, and it was cool. 
 
That feeling was tremendous. 
 
When I look at the MMO market I keep seeing a lot of interesting games, a lot of interesting games that I know I will never play because I don't want to grind mobs for fifty hours. That isn't the part of MMOs that I like, that doesn't appeal to me at all. I like the idea of a huge, open world, I like the concept of a virtual plane being influenced by actual human beings. For some reason though, everyone seems to get hung up on the PvE, like it's a fucking necessity for a game to be enjoyable even though it's been pretty well established that a lot of the people who tend to stick with these games, and continue to renew their subscriptions, are the people who are playing for the max level, end game content. 
  
Now that's just fucking lunacy. 
  
Why spend a majority of your budget creating a huge, sprawling world when no one is going to be spending any time in it once they've reached the level cap> Have some people done it right? Yeah. WoW is a pretty good game, I like the world they've made. Blizzard has a fantastic lore to work with, and I'm sure having infinite money also helps, but most people don't. 
 
Let's look at the big picture here, MMO development isn't about being the best all-around, accessible experience anymore. WoW did that. It's over. You lost. It's about exploring new markets and taking a chunk of that hardcore MMO playerbase that wants something new and not the same shit with a new coat of paint. I mean, we've seen it time and time again. New games come out, do pretty good for the first few months, and then slowly die because everyone realizes it's the same exact thing but worse. The people who are surviving are the ones who realized that innovation and change is the name of the game. Why not just cut the 80% of the game that some people just don't give a shit about and pool all your resources into the remaining 20%? Why not build a smaller, more condensed world that is built solely around the idea of complex, high level play from the get go? it's just raids, just PvP. Or how about a game focusing entirely on world PvP from the start? There are ideas out there, not necessarily new ideas, but ideas that have yet to be fully exploited.
 
Leveling doesn't even mean the end of progression either. Gear is an every present factor, and perhaps their could even be a way to level up skills and abilities through use. It isn't about taking out the number crunching all together, it's about rolling back on all the bonuses so a player can have a distinct advantage but never severely overpower a brand new player. Really, it's all about minimization. Using the world as a platform for engaging gameplay rather than using it for content dumpster. 
 
Main point: WoW already exists, why are most major developers copying the formula rather than taking individual parts and ideas from it and improving upon them? 
 
I'm not a game designer or anything, so there is probably a reason I'm just not getting.
 
Someone elaborate. 
 
(P.S. People who went straight to the reply box to tell me about the MMO they (play/used to play) that doesn't have leveling, 
 
I know. That isn't what we are talking about.)

it's just something that happens in games. other game developers keep the wow formula because they hope that it will get people to play. they hope people keep playing because it has the wow things. i do agree that they should expand from the formula. it would be great for them to do that. new things can happen from people expanding from something else. 
 
a MMO without levels would be pretty boring i think.  i think in the end something would replace the level with something else, like gear. there has to be end game content. instead of leveling people will look at gear. the gear would end up being the leveling. if somebody wants to raid they would have to get good gear to begin with. 
 
they could do something like basic stuff like kill boars the entire game. there are these monsters killing things kill them  the entire game. 
 
i had a good times playing WoW back in the burning crusade. it was a lot of fun to play that. i think the addictive part of it was because of the social aspect of the game.  you would log into the game and talk to peopel while grinding. i made a lot of friends with that game. i had a levle 70 orc  rogue with season 1 and 2 arena gear and epic flying mount.

So you want MMOs go straight to the endgame? That would cut out alot of content, however it would be good to see more endgame content at early levels. Like having more low level PVP etc.

As for games not doing anything new just look at DC, that has the action MMO thing done really nicely not to mention a setting that gets away from the fantasy style. Also class based PVP (Legends PVP) os a new thing also. The star wars MMO will probaby also add some new stuff so the genre is developing.

" So you want MMOs go straight to the endgame? That would cut out alot of content, however it would be good to see more endgame content at early levels. Like having more low level PVP etc. As for games not doing anything new just look at DC, that has the action MMO thing done really nicely not to mention a setting that gets away from the fantasy style. Also class based PVP (Legends PVP) os a new thing also. The star wars MMO will probaby also add some new stuff so the genre is developing. "

It seems like you kind of want something action focused, like a shooter?  Well, then, the question becomes "how massive does it have to be to be an MMO?"  Does Battlefield count?  Is there a reason they haven't made a Battlefield game with more people?  Or is an MMO just all about progression?  If there is progression, can you make it meaningful without unbalancing the game for new people?  At some point, aren't you just making APB which was probably the biggest MMO flop yet?  
 
I don't really know what this post is about.  I just started to come up with all of these challenges to making an MMO that wasn't just an Everquest clone and now present them to you.  If you can't think of any good answers, then that's probably why it's so hard to make that game.

One of the problems with that would be the lack of attachment to a character and a severe lack of devotion to anything you may have missed during any events in character progression.
 
Leveling is a staple in MMOs and taking it out of a game would either A) Doom the game seconds after launching or B) Kill a game already on the market.
 
Not to mention that many people (Including myself.) greatly enjoy the leveling process.

I think that its really strange that we still call them MMORPGs when they rarely contain much role playing. I think that's where an MMO with no leveling could work. If you really let people play a role, levels and things wouldn't really matter so much.

" One of the problems with that would be the lack of attachment to a character and a severe lack of devotion to anything you may have missed during any events in character progression.  Leveling is a staple in MMOs and taking it out of a game would either A) Doom the game seconds after launching or B) Kill a game already on the market.   Not to mention that many people (Including myself.) greatly enjoy the leveling process. "

People play MMOs for the leveling.  You invest more time and because of it are better then some one who hasn't, that is the point.  There are plenty of other games and genres that have Player versus Player with out leveling, that is the reason behind RPGs.  Taking the leveling out would be like taking the weapons out of shooters.

" People play MMOs for the leveling.  You invest more time and because of it are better then some one who hasn't, that is the point.  There are plenty of other games and genres that have Player versus Player with out leveling, that is the reason behind RPGs.  Taking the leveling out would be like taking the weapons out of shooters. "

" People play MMOs for the leveling.  You invest more time and because of it are better then some one who hasn't, that is the point.  There are plenty of other games and genres that have Player versus Player with out leveling, that is the reason behind RPGs.  Taking the leveling out would be like taking the weapons out of shooters. "

@NekuSakuraba said:

" So you want MMOs go straight to the endgame? That would cut out alot of content, however it would be good to see more endgame content at early levels. Like having more low level PVP etc. As for games not doing anything new just look at DC, that has the action MMO thing done really nicely not to mention a setting that gets away from the fantasy style. Also class based PVP (Legends PVP) os a new thing also. The star wars MMO will probaby also add some new stuff so the genre is developing. "

DC isn't doing anything new. 
They took the atrocious shit they slapped on to Star Wars Galaxies and slapped some DC skins on it.  
Lord of the Rings has kind of the same PVP stuff also, make a Bad Guy character or take your good guy into the arena, that's about it.

How bout an RPG without gameplay or roles, know what i mean? its just chill, no pressure. 

A MMOFPS.

Without leveling huh?I wouldnt play it...

" @ZeForgotten

@NekuSakuraba said:

" So you want MMOs go straight to the endgame? That would cut out alot of content, however it would be good to see more endgame content at early levels. Like having more low level PVP etc. As for games not doing anything new just look at DC, that has the action MMO thing done really nicely not to mention a setting that gets away from the fantasy style. Also class based PVP (Legends PVP) os a new thing also. The star wars MMO will probaby also add some new stuff so the genre is developing. "

DC isn't doing anything new. 
They took the atrocious shit they slapped on to Star Wars Galaxies and slapped some DC skins on it.  
Lord of the Rings has kind of the same PVP stuff also, make a Bad Guy character or take your good guy into the arena, that's about it.

DC has done the action MMO gameplay fantastically giving you much more control over the gameplay. "

" @ZeForgotten

@NekuSakuraba said:

" So you want MMOs go straight to the endgame? That would cut out alot of content, however it would be good to see more endgame content at early levels. Like having more low level PVP etc. As for games not doing anything new just look at DC, that has the action MMO thing done really nicely not to mention a setting that gets away from the fantasy style. Also class based PVP (Legends PVP) os a new thing also. The star wars MMO will probaby also add some new stuff so the genre is developing. "

DC isn't doing anything new. 
They took the atrocious shit they slapped on to Star Wars Galaxies and slapped some DC skins on it.  
Lord of the Rings has kind of the same PVP stuff also, make a Bad Guy character or take your good guy into the arena, that's about it.

DC has done the action MMO gameplay fantastically giving you much more control over the gameplay. "

" How bout an RPG without gameplay or roles, know what i mean? its just chill, no pressure.  "

" A MMOFPS. "

" @LordXavierBritish:  Guild Wars go play it,  you don't really need to level. "

" @LordXavierBritish:  Actually i think, theres some concepts that could be taken, like from the Warhammer(the rts) arena mode or w/e(although its not done well), where instead of being with levels your increasing the amount of equipment you can use which might not be better equipment, its just different, and requires different play-styles. I think the final fantasy Job system could be harnessed to some degree, i mean over the years they have made like 100 classes, and it would be cool to just be able to unlock new classes as a reward instead of just making individual ones stronger. I mean there has to be some progression to it for it really to work, not sure how it would work.   "

I would be interested to see if there could be a MMO that had combat that was entirely action oriented. An MMO that played like Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden with customizable characters, weapons, skills, and combos. But no, absolutely no, dice rolls. No numbers popping out of people heads, but life bars like in a fighting game. You could gain new combos and skills through playing through the game, but you wouldn't actually level up in strength. So a new character would have the same basic hitting power as an experienced character, but the experienced character would have more interesting and varied moves that would actually take skill to use affectively.

so i read what you wrote.    It's hard to justify a monthly fee without a grindy game.  Grinds are intentionally put in these type of games to keep the cash flow going and the players playing.  It would only work if your going the free2play route when development starts.

" so i read what you wrote.    It's hard to justify a monthly fee without a grindy game.  Grinds are intentionally put in these type of games to keep the cash flow going and the players playing.  It would only work if your going the free2play route when development starts. "

I'll answer the original post in kind... 
 
Some people just fucking enjoy their PvE. 
 
Yeah, so WoW already exists.  Most MMOs do try to improve or change various aspects.  When they made WoW, they were just copying EQ's formula while changing a few aspects. 
 
People want action?  Go play Planetside.  You want more world PvP right from the start, play Planetside or Warhammer Online.  
 
 
What bothers me most about the MMO community is that people act like because WoW doesn't cater to their desires, nothing for their desires exists.  News flash, WoW isn't the only game out there.

" @Marz said:

" so i read what you wrote.    It's hard to justify a monthly fee without a grindy game.  Grinds are intentionally put in these type of games to keep the cash flow going and the players playing.  It would only work if your going the free2play route when development starts. "

I don't see grinding as justifying the monthly fee at all.   I pay a subscription for consistent updates and improvements and the persistent world that can only be achieved via dedicated server (Well, no, but the alternative is ridiculous.). "

You role play in WoW by way of your class and "role" in what you do (damage, heals, etc).  Role play doesn't mandate that you speak in thous and have a backstory for your character, frankly that's pretty ghey and is why the amount of RP servers on all MMOs is insignificant.
 
WWII Online is a persistent fps, kind of like a massive Operation Flashpoint set in WWII.

" @LordXavierBritish said:

" @Marz said:

" so i read what you wrote.    It's hard to justify a monthly fee without a grindy game.  Grinds are intentionally put in these type of games to keep the cash flow going and the players playing.  It would only work if your going the free2play route when development starts. "

I don't see grinding as justifying the monthly fee at all.   I pay a subscription for consistent updates and improvements and the persistent world that can only be achieved via dedicated server (Well, no, but the alternative is ridiculous.). "

It would be a terribly small world because there would be no motivation to go out and explore.  They would all sit in a hub city and wait for their next dungeon group.   Probably similar to D & D online where it's just instances with a hub town and max level WoW.  I enjoy leveling, gives me a sense of accomplishment and attachment to my character because we got through the grind together.   I remember when i reached 75 the first time in Final Fantasy XI (lvl cap at the time i was playing)   It was one of the greatest feelings in the world finally reaching that milestone in a fairly brutal leveling system.  If it was a game purely built on end game content, it really wouldn't be a game i would want to play personally, because as of right now in WoW my only motivation to log on is to raid 2 nights a week.    I don't feel 15$ a month was worth the end game content,  it was the short journey from 80-85 that justified it to me.  But anyways Guild Wars seems to be the best model for a leveling free system, i can't think of anything else unless you go the APB route but actually make a combat system worth playing. "  

leveling up is makes your progress obvious . Like in your face  and that's fun especially for casual gamers like me .

I had a post based on your topic, but you actually said something that just absolutely changed it. 
 
 
@LordXavierBritish said:

" @NekuSakuraba: If you want to get specific about it, what I would prefer is something along the lines of Shattered Galaxy but with gameplay based more around the concepts of the traditional WoW-like MMORPG. Something that is more about territorial control where even new players can have an impact on how a battle plays out.  Is there leveling in that game? Yes, but all the grinding is pointless as hell and it would be a lot better if it wasn't there. "

It's called Monster Hunter

" Without leveling huh?I wouldnt play it... "

" @LordXavierBritish:  Guild Wars go play it,  you don't really need to level. "