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Posted by Animasta (14458 posts) -

okay so there's been some 'awesome' anita discussions again and those are always fun, but one thing I am tired of is people calling people white knights, because that's entirely disingenious... for a couple of reasons. Look, I respect people who can make good arguments even if I don't agree with them ( is a pretty good example, I disagree with him on most things but I enjoy his arguments) and I think most smart, or even 'smart', people do too (of which I assume Anita thinks herself as smart; whether she is or not is not a discussion I want to have, so shut up). And, if you're really that fucking interested in reading a goddamn feminism debate thread in a video game forum, I assume you are too! So the white knight accusation is completely inaccurate from that point, and most people who enjoy my statements (and follow me because of this) that other people might construe as white knight exemplary are people who make the same arguments, and they aren't all women, though that's because there aren't a whole lot of women here.

The second part though, is the inherent disbelief that "you couldn't think that, you're only doing it because you want a girl/girls to notice you" or fucking whatever. People believe all sorts of crazy bullshit; people believe in goddamn chem trails! i don't know why your disbelief is such that a guy couldn't POSSIBLY be some radical feminist without doing it because he wants some pussy or even... e-pussy (I don't know the word for online sex)? Like maybe comparing radical or even hardcore feminism to chem trails is a little insensitive but it gets my point across. . Hell, people (it was probably endurancefun) have even called me a white knight for patrick. LIKE COME ON.

I mean Patrick's cute and all but...

:)

but seriously, don't be fucking lazy. Think up some new, more interesting, and more debatable words then that, especially considering that will sort of derail a debate, and debates are cool.

I used white knight recently but I was joking, which is how people SHOULD use it. It's such a ridiculous term if you honestly think about it.

Also I wonder if that term is why Dark Souls doesn't have white knights... just silver.

#1 Edited by Animasta (14458 posts) -

okay so there's been some 'awesome' anita discussions again and those are always fun, but one thing I am tired of is people calling people white knights, because that's entirely disingenious... for a couple of reasons. Look, I respect people who can make good arguments even if I don't agree with them ( is a pretty good example, I disagree with him on most things but I enjoy his arguments) and I think most smart, or even 'smart', people do too (of which I assume Anita thinks herself as smart; whether she is or not is not a discussion I want to have, so shut up). And, if you're really that fucking interested in reading a goddamn feminism debate thread in a video game forum, I assume you are too! So the white knight accusation is completely inaccurate from that point, and most people who enjoy my statements (and follow me because of this) that other people might construe as white knight exemplary are people who make the same arguments, and they aren't all women, though that's because there aren't a whole lot of women here.

The second part though, is the inherent disbelief that "you couldn't think that, you're only doing it because you want a girl/girls to notice you" or fucking whatever. People believe all sorts of crazy bullshit; people believe in goddamn chem trails! i don't know why your disbelief is such that a guy couldn't POSSIBLY be some radical feminist without doing it because he wants some pussy or even... e-pussy (I don't know the word for online sex)? Like maybe comparing radical or even hardcore feminism to chem trails is a little insensitive but it gets my point across. . Hell, people (it was probably endurancefun) have even called me a white knight for patrick. LIKE COME ON.

I mean Patrick's cute and all but...

:)

but seriously, don't be fucking lazy. Think up some new, more interesting, and more debatable words then that, especially considering that will sort of derail a debate, and debates are cool.

I used white knight recently but I was joking, which is how people SHOULD use it. It's such a ridiculous term if you honestly think about it.

Also I wonder if that term is why Dark Souls doesn't have white knights... just silver.

#2 Edited by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

I'm relatively new to the site but I've noticed that you really enjoy stirring up these sensationalist topics and expressing your somewhat contrarian opinions. Can't we enjoy this website without dragging Patrick's thing into the forum? Thanks.

Edit: No offense intended by the way.

#3 Posted by Sergio (1766 posts) -

This just sets up the first person to defend its use as white knighting "white knight."

#4 Posted by Kevin_Cogneto (924 posts) -

@Animasta said:

okay so there's been some 'awesome' anita discussions again and those are always fun, but one thing I am tired of is people calling people white knights, because that's entirely disingenious...

[...]

Like maybe comparing radical or even hardcore feminism to chem trails is a little insensitive but it gets my point across.

I get that the knight is white but I forget, what color was the kettle again?

#5 Posted by Example1013 (4747 posts) -
#6 Edited by Animasta (14458 posts) -

@OfficeGamer: I assume you mean the torso article, I never mentioned that at all, but someone calling me a white knight for Patrick is exactly why that term is fucking terrible. Patrick's treatment is merely an example

@Sergio: stop white knighting the white knight for white knight

@Kevin_Cogneto: it was an example? people believe in way way dumber things than the radical feminism employed by Anita

#7 Posted by Hailinel (22677 posts) -

Did this really need it's own thread?

Online
#8 Posted by Animasta (14458 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

Did this really need it's own thread?

is this any worse than the ideal polls?

and it's a blog not a thread D:

#9 Posted by Video_Game_King (34573 posts) -

@Animasta said:

and it's a blog not a thread D:

Are you and the same person?

Although I agree that yes, the term "white knight" sucks pretty hard.

#10 Posted by Milkman (16218 posts) -

Whatever, dude. You're just trying to get laid by these RADICAL FEMINISTS.

#11 Posted by WasabiCurry (415 posts) -

@Animasta: Taking a measure from both, they seem to be on par. :p

#12 Posted by JZ (2125 posts) -

Muffin

#13 Posted by Hailinel (22677 posts) -
@Animasta

@Hailinel said:

Did this really need it's own thread?

is this any worse than the ideal polls?

and it's a blog not a thread D:

It's impossible to tell the difference between thread and public blog on the mobile site. That being said, comparing this to spam topics like the ideal threads is going after low-hanging fruit.
Online
#14 Edited by Animasta (14458 posts) -

@Milkman said:

Whatever, dude. You're just trying to get laid by these RADICAL FEMINISTS.

it's true.

I took time away from my busy schedule of reading terrible fanfiction to write this just for the chance for some hot radfem action

@Hailinel: just wait, my next blog will be about romance, it will be explosive

#15 Posted by TooWalrus (12967 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@Hailinel: just wait, my next blog will be about romance, it will be explosive

zing.

#16 Posted by Example1013 (4747 posts) -
#17 Posted by Animasta (14458 posts) -

@_Chad: exactly, who would want to be a white knight? you'd just get dirt all over your armor and it'd be a bad scene all around

#18 Posted by believer258 (11033 posts) -
I don't know the word for online sex

Congratulations, you invented it.

e-pussy

@OfficeGamer said:

I'm relatively new to the site but I've noticed that you really enjoy stirring up these sensationalist topics and expressing your somewhat contrarian opinions. Can't we enjoy this website without dragging Patrick's thing into the forum? Thanks.

Edit: No offense intended by the way.

Yep. Every time she starts a thread dealing with feminism it's kind of like this.

On topic (if there even really is a topic, you're as always a bit rambly Animasta), though, you're right that not every dude siding with feminists is a white knight. Still, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of their posts do bring to mind this:

@Example1013 said:

I almost always get the "taking charge" sense from the sorts of posts that you're on about, which is very very ironic.

#19 Posted by Nilazz (606 posts) -

You could almost turn all of this White Knight talk into a Chronicle...

#20 Edited by Animasta (14458 posts) -

@believer258: this isn't about feminism though, not entirely, it's the fact that the white knight term isn't conductive to a proper debate and that anyone who uses it is lazy and terrible, that's why I mentioned the Patrick thing.

and I think the rambly nature of my posts adds to my charm

I mean, if you HONESTLY believe someone is being the stereotypical white knight, stop responding to him, you're never going to 'win' anyway. or have a good debate which is more important

#21 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4655 posts) -

White Knight for Patrick is my new indie rock band I am forming, you are welcome to join. Listening to the GB crew so much has me using their jokes it would seem. I stay out of those arguments for the most part but I agree with your sentiment. White Knight is just a way for people to try and brush off peoples opinion. I guess they figure a man can't possibly be a feminist without a ulterior motive.

#22 Edited by FancySoapsMan (5750 posts) -

While I agree, I believe both sides are equally guilty of using the same tactic.

for example, people in the Dead Island statue thread accusing everyone they disagreed with of being misogynists or calling them children/neckbeards/whatever.

#23 Edited by Vonocourt (2107 posts) -

So you're saying the term "white knight" will eventually join the ranks of "straw man?" I.E. if you use it, we should probably just ignore you.

Not like it matters, I really have a hard time keeping track of internet arguments, as they often usually become layers upon layers of people arguing about how terrible the original argument is while the original argument continues, often intertwining. I check out after about three pages.

#24 Posted by believer258 (11033 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@believer258: this isn't about feminism though, not entirely, it's the fact that the white knight term isn't conductive to a proper debate and that anyone who uses it is lazy and terrible, that's why I mentioned the Patrick thing.

and I think the rambly nature of my posts adds to my charm

I mean, if you HONESTLY believe someone is being the stereotypical white knight, stop responding to him, you're never going to 'win' anyway. or have a good debate which is more important

Are you fucking kidding me? This is the internet! I am required by... well, something to respond! It's serious fucking business, man!

But to be honest I still don't see much of a topic here. "Stop calling people white knights!" is what this boils down to. When I said you were being rambly, I meant, take that idea and expand on it. "Rambling" doesn't equate to "expansion" and I know there's a dick joke in there but I'm too lazy to think of one.

#25 Posted by Animasta (14458 posts) -

@FancySoapsMan said:

While I agree, I believe both sides are equally guilty of using the same tactic.

for example, people in the Dead Island statue thread accusing everyone they disagreed with of being misogynists or calling them children/neckbeards/whatever.

true, but I see a whole lot more white knight then that.

@believer258: unfortunately, my carpal tunnel or whatever the fuck I have to make my hands hurt all the goddamn fucking time means I am stuck in a permanent ramble.

Not to say that excuses me so go ahead and take me to task for being unclear or whatever, just saying.

#26 Posted by Everyones_A_Critic (6268 posts) -

Yup. I've never understood it. As if a girl is gonna be like "MY HERO!!! HAVE A PICTURE OF MY PUSSY!!!" If a girl's getting harassed on the internet she should be able to handle it herself.

Just hide the bleach.

#27 Posted by Vance_Helsing (215 posts) -

trust no bitch

#28 Posted by aquamarin (553 posts) -

Sick of this white knighting.

#29 Posted by believer258 (11033 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@FancySoapsMan said:

While I agree, I believe both sides are equally guilty of using the same tactic.

for example, people in the Dead Island statue thread accusing everyone they disagreed with of being misogynists or calling them children/neckbeards/whatever.

true, but I see a whole lot more white knight then that.

@believer258: unfortunately, my carpal tunnel or whatever the fuck I have to make my hands hurt all the goddamn fucking time means I am stuck in a permanent ramble.

Not to say that excuses me so go ahead and take me to task for being unclear or whatever, just saying.

You could get a lot more work out of those hands if you cursed less and posted less.

11,209 posts

That's, like, somewhere around half as much as and his incoherence is at least grammatically correct.

.I am just kidding! Ramble all you want, it's your blog and posts.

#30 Posted by MariachiMacabre (6936 posts) -
@Milkman
Whatever, dude. You're just trying to get laid by these RADICAL FEMINISTS.
Who happen to be funded by the Illuminati. "Feminazism. Not even on once." -Rush Limbaugh.
#31 Posted by Ravenlight (8033 posts) -

@Animasta said:

I mean Patrick's cute and all but...

Sexism!

#32 Edited by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -

The white knight label does have relevance when there is evidence that fits the criteria for the label. But the mass label of "you're all just white knights" is about as useful as "you're all just dumbfaces" ... there are a certain number of people who are the exemplar of the white knight (as well as people who are exemplar of faces that are dumb), but throwing it around like a nice easy, indefensible personal attack is as mindless as the mass 'misogynist' attacks. I have little personal grudge for them, because it's literally all our culture teaches them from birth. I was one for a good long time. We pound into our young boys the core tenets of old school chivalry which are inherently inequal and then watch as these boys flounder in the cognitive dissonance (girls too, I'd bet). I know, it was crazy-making stuff. "Treat women the same as you treat men... but at the same time, treat them better than you treat men." "Here's someone being rude to a girl, I should step in and back her up. Here's someone being rude to a guy, who gives a shit, he can handle it."

Chivalry enforces the two sexual mores that we're trying to break from now; male disposability and female infantilization. We don't treat men with respect for their feelings, security or comfort because we grant that they have agency, responsibility and accountability. We don't treat women with the respect for their agency, responsibility or accountability, because we're too busy guarding their feelings, security and comfort. Neither side gets what they want in this model. It's only been maybe the last year or so when I've been able to unplug from that line of thinking. Consider that under the laws of good ole courtly chivalry, it was encouraged, nigh demanded, that you punch a man in the face for the crime of using foul language in the presence of a lady. Consider how fucking crazy that is, to justify physically harming a man, because you believe a woman would be harmed by hearing something profane.

And no, there isn't a lot on Giant Bomb I would consider 'radical' feminism, if only because I know exactly how buckwild radfems can get. A lot of it is the mainstream feminism that maybe doesn't really get what it's all about, but they don't hate women so sure, whatever they want, let's give it to em... even if their arguments just don't hold water. But that ain't radical feminism, those folks go beyond the pale. Things like advocating a 'population reduction' to 10% of the female population, or genetic therapy to turn off androgens (hormones that develop secondary sex characteristics in boys). Coming from nurses and child care specialists. But no one cares, because "oh it's just women talking". I know what you call it when you plan on reducing the population of women; you call it sharia law.

As for white knighting the staff... you could call it white knighting, but it's really better referenced to circling the wagons. I can admit, straight up, I'm critical of the staff, but it doesn't change that I enjoy their work. I know what they're capable of, and I hold them to that standard. When Patrick acts in a hypocritical manner (remember when he flipped out about Borderlands 2's "girlfriend mode"... a year earlier he wondered out loud if Portal 2 would be "girlfriend-friendly"), I'm going to hold him to the same standard I would hold anyone. When Brad makes terrible arguments in defense of something he likes, even if I agree with him about the thing he likes, I'm going to scrutinize the argument. Perhaps that's just me being a prig (my girlfriend might agree!), but I feel it's worthwhile. The unexamined life is not worth living.

#33 Posted by Video_Game_King (34573 posts) -

@believer258:

I'm well aware of how insane my blog posts are. That's what the Renegade part of Renegade Ego represents: you can't control this blog train. It's just gonna do whatever the hell it wants. I've proven this time and time again, mind you. (I try not to do this in my review-reviews, but I can't say if I'm successful there.)

#34 Posted by rentfn (1266 posts) -

@Nilazz: *rimshot*

#35 Posted by laserbolts (5309 posts) -

Haha classic.

#36 Edited by Gerhabio (1969 posts) -

@Animasta said:

hot radfem action

Where do I sign up?

I agree with you, Animasta. The whole "White Knight" rebuttal is cheap and lazy. There isn't even that many females on these forums. It would be silly to put effort into getting this fabled "e-poon" in such a platform. Plus, in my experience, the women that do frequent them tend to be either reactionary or apathetic about the whole Women in Video Games subject anyway.

It still baffles me when self-proclaimed female users say objectification is completely inconsequential and that inequality doesn't exist anymore. Maybe they live in some kind of liberal paradise on Earth [Sweden] inaccessible to me?

#37 Posted by medacris (611 posts) -

Right off the bat: I think there's more women on here than you'd expect. You'd be surprised.

Supporting anyone just so they'll "owe" you something is stupid, and not genuine support, whether it's only supporting a woman (or man) who's been wronged just because you think they'll "reward" you with sex, or defending an artist just because you want them to draw you something. You should support someone because you genuinely think they've been wronged and deserve better. I like thinking people have good intentions when they stand up for something, and only suspect them of being fishy if they start being suspicious, though.

#38 Edited by Abendlaender (2596 posts) -

What does "white knighting" actually mean? Defending someone/something? So, is there a thing like "black knighing" then? Or I guess that would be "trolling" (seems fitting at least cause "dragoning" doesn't sound as cool as I thought it would).

#39 Posted by Zomgfruitbunnies (558 posts) -

One doesn't have to be white or a knight to get with the ladies/duders.

Hence, white knights are unnecessary.

I have a foolproof argument.

#40 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -

@Abendlaender said:

What does "white knighting" actually mean? Defending someone/something? So, is there a thing like "black knighing" then? Or I guess that would be "trolling" (seems fitting at least cause "dragoning" doesn't sound as cool as I thought it would).

White knighting is the idea that if a man doth be trolling, arguing, whatevering a proper lady, it is thine duty to step betwixt her and the knave troll, and thusly meet him in glorious internet combat. A lady cannot defend herself, and is a fragile, shrinking flower, of course!

The subtle sexism of lowered expectations.

#41 Posted by dudeglove (7241 posts) -

I've yet to come across any internet debate where all sides involved leave enlightened and have a greater understanding of one another's humanity, but maybe this thread could deliver.

#42 Posted by JasonR86 (9365 posts) -

@Animasta:

Dude, you are opening yourself up to get a lot of shit.

#43 Posted by Example1013 (4747 posts) -

@Abendlaender said:

What does "white knighting" actually mean? Defending someone/something? So, is there a thing like "black knighing" then? Or I guess that would be "trolling" (seems fitting at least cause "dragoning" doesn't sound as cool as I thought it would).

I dragon'd ur mom last night

#44 Posted by Raven10 (1584 posts) -

I honestly have no idea where this blog came from as I specifically choose not to read Patrick's articles on this stuff because as much as I agree with him, all it ever leads to is fighting. I guess the idea is that guys do nice things for girls to get pussy right? Kind of like the "fake nice" guy thing that gets thrown around a lot these days. Fact of the matter is that if you are helping someone because you want something in return then you aren't helping them you are helping yourself. If you truly care about someone's well being then their safety and happiness should be your ultimate goal. Now if that means defending them when they are unable then okay. It doesn't mean, though, that men should defend women who are clearly capable of handling themselves. My strategy is to always make my friends, male or female, know that I am always ready to help in any way I can if they are in need, but I don't butt into their business if they ask me to stay out of it. Letting your friends know that you will be there for them is important, and being there when they do need you is even more important. But swooping in to save a girl from every last problem is a bit overboard. A guy can show he cares and that he wants to support a girl without acting like she is incapable of helping herself. And, as I said, true friends help each other because they care about each other not because they want something in return.

#45 Posted by BisonHero (5653 posts) -

I've just given up on serious discourse on the internet, due to situations like this. All of the internet lingo has basically evolved to be anti-intellectual and stifle conversation. Calling someone a white knight, or saying "u mad?" or "no u" or any number of other condescending internet slang phrases: they all just serve to put down the person they're said to and to dismiss the entire conversation.

But yeah, the "white knight" defense in particularly is such a pathetic case of projecting. Anyone who actually accuses someone else of being a white knight is probably a teenage boy who has no idea how to talk to girls, and thinks that surely you must be bullshitting if you're claiming you can agree with a woman without wanting to get into her pants.

#46 Edited by JordanK85 (140 posts) -

The term "white knight" is fairly impotent at this point. It's been used so often that, from me at least, it elicits no more than an eye roll. That being said, it's really just symptomatic of the larger problem of ad hominem's acceptance in Internet discussions. In my perfect world there would be bots that scan and delete from threads any instances of ad hominem. However, some threads may disappear altogether.

#47 Edited by chrissedoff (2034 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@Abendlaender said:

What does "white knighting" actually mean? Defending someone/something? So, is there a thing like "black knighing" then? Or I guess that would be "trolling" (seems fitting at least cause "dragoning" doesn't sound as cool as I thought it would).

White knighting is the idea that if a man doth be trolling, arguing, whatevering a proper lady, it is thine duty to step betwixt her and the knave troll, and thusly meet him in glorious internet combat. A lady cannot defend herself, and is a fragile, shrinking flower, of course!

The subtle sexism of lowered expectations.

That's a pretty good sum-up of what white-knighting really is and why it's a bad thing. On this board, most of the people accusing users of being white knights use the term from a deeply misogynistic perspective... basically to try to intimidate and dismiss any presumably male site user who makes a feminist-positive argument. I don't think these people understand that they can't try to shut out all perspectives on the treatment of gender in games that don't sync up with their belief that things are just fine as they are and then get offended when other people think they're misogynists.

#48 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4279 posts) -

@chrissedoff said:

@Brodehouse said:

@Abendlaender said:

What does "white knighting" actually mean? Defending someone/something? So, is there a thing like "black knighing" then? Or I guess that would be "trolling" (seems fitting at least cause "dragoning" doesn't sound as cool as I thought it would).

White knighting is the idea that if a man doth be trolling, arguing, whatevering a proper lady, it is thine duty to step betwixt her and the knave troll, and thusly meet him in glorious internet combat. A lady cannot defend herself, and is a fragile, shrinking flower, of course!

The subtle sexism of lowered expectations.

That's a pretty good sum-up of what white-knighting really is and why it's a bad thing. On this board, most of the people accusing users of being white knights use the term from a deeply misogynistic perspective... basically to try to intimidate and dismiss any presumably male site user who makes a feminist-positive argument. I don't think these people understand that they can't try to shut out all perspectives on the treatment of gender in games that don't sync up with their belief that things are just fine as they are and then get offended when other people think they're misogynists.

small correction here - misogyny is the fear/hatred of women. Being ignorant doesn't mean you're afraid or hateful. It just makes you ignorant.

#49 Edited by Coombs (3449 posts) -

@Example1013 said:

Wow.... Thank you so much for this picture

Also as far as this whole stupid thing goes

#50 Posted by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@Animasta said:

okay so there's been some 'awesome' anita discussions again and those are always fun, but one thing I am tired of is people calling people white knights, because that's entirely disingenious... for a couple of reasons. Look, I respect people who can make good arguments even if I don't agree with them ( is a pretty good example, I disagree with him on most things but I enjoy his arguments) and I think most smart, or even 'smart', people do too (of which I assume Anita thinks herself as smart; whether she is or not is not a discussion I want to have, so shut up). And, if you're really that fucking interested in reading a goddamn feminism debate thread in a video game forum, I assume you are too! So the white knight accusation is completely inaccurate from that point, and most people who enjoy my statements (and follow me because of this) that other people might construe as white knight exemplary are people who make the same arguments, and they aren't all women, though that's because there aren't a whole lot of women here.

The second part though, is the inherent disbelief that "you couldn't think that, you're only doing it because you want a girl/girls to notice you" or fucking whatever. People believe all sorts of crazy bullshit; people believe in goddamn chem trails! i don't know why your disbelief is such that a guy couldn't POSSIBLY be some radical feminist without doing it because he wants some pussy or even... e-pussy (I don't know the word for online sex)? Like maybe comparing radical or even hardcore feminism to chem trails is a little insensitive but it gets my point across. . Hell, people (it was probably endurancefun) have even called me a white knight for patrick. LIKE COME ON.

I mean Patrick's cute and all but...

:)

but seriously, don't be fucking lazy. Think up some new, more interesting, and more debatable words then that, especially considering that will sort of derail a debate, and debates are cool.

I used white knight recently but I was joking, which is how people SHOULD use it. It's such a ridiculous term if you honestly think about it.

Also I wonder if that term is why Dark Souls doesn't have white knights... just silver.

I agree with you. You're apparently not allowed to give your opinion on anything involving women, unless it's negative, or you're a "white knight" trying to get laid. It's just childish and silly.