Kinda touchy subject...but I want to be serious about it.
For Faux News to influense me I would have to actually take their broadcasts seriously, don't you think? Secondly, I would have to actually watch them, and thus probably live in the US. Or are there actually people looking them up on youtube for any other purpose than laughing at them? That'd be pretty damn sad.
I honestly don't think you read my entire post, I live in a country which largest religion is by far Islam seeing Sweden is secular in the extreme. What I say is not due to me being spoon-fed the bullshit of the right wing extremists but rather my opinion based upon the experiences I've had with exactly what you're saying: Talking to Muslims. Honestly, it's such a huge clash between "cultures" (theirs being infuensed by their faith, naturally) that it's really bloody hard to get along on anything political or remotely ethical with them. Equal rights for women sends most I've talked to into a fucking grumpy mood, the notion of genital mutilation always raises their pulse. I'm the one prosecuting, I'm the one at fault for worrying about children having knives put to their lower sections before they have a say in it. It's being done, illegaly, in the country I was born in for no other purpose than to suck up to a presumed god and the teachings of a prophet. That they want the rules of their religion into the actual lawbook of countries is no secret, man.
Edit: I may also add that I consider all types of religions unecessary. Islam however is the subject of OP's post, is it not?
My point about generalisation still stands though - I agree with you to a certain extent in that I find a lot of traditional Islamic practices abhorrent (lack of equal rights for women, genital mutilation etc.), but I don't think this behaviour always applies to the majority of Muslims, at least not in the case of those living in Western countries. Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that neither of us can give anything but anecdotal evidence for, which makes it kind of hard to be objective!
But it still depends, I definitely still think that you could find more vital discoveries before the "age of islam" than after, and you could probably find some pretty vital non-Islamic discoveries after and during that period, they definitely created some sort of platform of which we improved our knowledge with. But to say that they made the biggest discoveries in time? Nah. The pyramid was a greater accomplishment than any of the Islamic ones, hell, the man who started the very first fire is probably the most important person in our history, technology-wise.
EDIT: Sorry to keep you waiting, but I'm not sitting here eagerly waiting for a reply all the time.
Not a problem, I may have come off as quite harsh myself in my first post. Granted, I was upset.
And indeed, it's not like there is any public data avaliable to us in regards of the behaviour of the moderates. What worries me is, as pointed out in my earlier posts, the relative silence from the ones who actually doesn't behave like zealots. You don't see them loudly agreeing, but you honestly don't hear them disagreeing either. I know a fella who's pretty sensible in his beliefs as a Muslim, can actually joke about it and stuff, but he goes very silent whenever suicide bombings come up on the news or whatever. Just silent, nothing else. Plants a small seed of worry in your being.
I don't see what the big deal is.
Comedy Central had every right to censor the episode as they saw fit, for whatever reason, because they write the check.
Radical Muslims took offense to the image (as many people would from any person with respect for their own religion) and over-reacted with threats of violence, as radical religious folk usually do.
Who cares about why the felt the way they did or whether Comedy Central was being fair enacting a double standard between religions. People who threaten others for the sake of their own beliefs are shit heads, end point and Comedy Central obviously didn't want to call their very obvious empty bluff of being shit heads, for whatever reason to their own.
I believe everyone can agree with that statement and all the argument lies out of the scope of this topic in general.
" No, their studies into the sciences were a vital part of their religion, they actually made measurements and studied from within Mosques. It's actually the exact opposite, it was Muslims that took early theories to the next level and provided more insight into the cosmos and natural laws. You haven't heard about it because you've only read what western scholars have told you... History has proved that western scholars should not be trusted. *Josephius* "How exactly does this play in on present day?
Sweden used to be an Empire, should everyone treat it as such instead of this whiny, neutral, human-rights loving stain somewhere in Europe?
" @Flaime said:Not entirely accurate. I think you'll find that the average historian overlooks Greek and Roman technological advances as well. Roman and Greek societies built massively complicated machines and understood a wide variety of things such as both maths and astronomy before Islam was even founded. The fact that they overlook the Islamic renaissance is kind of irrelevant, they overlook everything in one way or another. Now the reason Muslim cultures are depicted as backward is because quite frankly they are. To my knowledge there are no 1st World Muslim countries, Dubai, Bahrain etc are often cited as such, but in reality the wealth disparity is massive in those countries.Christianity has no laws what so ever on the depiction of Jesus, Muslims do have laws on depicting their profit and other forms of god's creation, that's why they have no pictorial art, but instead have have high art on par with ours (discovered through rigorous mathematical endeavour*) found within their architecture. * Muslim cultures around the world are often depicted as being a backwards in the West, and this despite them making some of the biggest advances in mathematics, science and astronomy in our past. While they had street lighting, we had caves, but we never hear of this kind of thing today, one has to ask why. Western scholars have filled the history books with bullshit. "" Kinda the same situation we in Denmark had a couple of years ago with the so-called Muhammed Drawings. We got threatened, boycotted, protested against and other manners like that. The Islamic culture wanted us to apologies, but we didn't, because we have Liberty of Speech, and we stand by it. If you start to act on these presumably empty threats, you show that you are weak and can be manipulated with.
@Linkyshinks: I found the episode really funny, also the drawings made here in Denmark. Their purpose is to entertain, and they succeeded in that, at least with one person. Jesus has been featured in many South Park episodes, but no protests or threats based of that. "
On topic, and quite frankly who cares? You don't want to depict your Prophet? Fine. But I sure as hell can. It's called free speech. Muslims (and I know I use the term generally, and I apologise, but in Western countries it does seem to be Muslims who are frequently the ones doing this) need to get over their religion. Everybody has heard a catholic church joke, or a Jew Joke, or a Black Joke. South Park makes fun of these on a regular basis, I think the unofficial motto is 'nobody is safe', so why the hell should Muslims lose their shit when their prophet is only shown, not even insulted?
I think some people are missing the point about what people in the west, non-Islamic countries, do for fun and entertainment, wrapped up their culture. If people of Islamic background want to live by Islamic law, then they need to live in an Islamic country. Fair enough, you do not break Islamic law if you are are in an Islamic country, but these things, done for entertainment, are done in western countries with western laws. The Islamists do not have to watch it or read it, that is their choice. We cannot allow the laws of western society to be dictated by any religious group.
The biggest problem I have seen with the west in general is that we judge Islamic ways in Islamic countries. Just because it does not conform to our generalised beliefs, does not make it wrong. Interference in these countries has made the world as volatile as it is now. If we jut left them alone to live their own lives we would be largely at peace. But no, we prop up dictators or bad governments, we supply them with weapons and then shove western culture down their throats. We made conflict between the west and Islam and now we are paying for it.
This still does not change the fact that if you are in a western country, you respect its laws, values and culture. When we finally leave the middle east alone and the power of oil is gone, things may finally change. Until then though, living in the west gives us the freedom to do as we choose as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Hurting someone in the real sense that is, not their feelings or sensibilities. The value of comedians and satirists should never be undervalued as they have played a massive part in our society progression, by breaking silly barriers. They have every right to poke fun at Islam and they should do it whenever the opportunity raises itself. It isn't racist, it is comedy. When the comedians go silent, our society has died.
I suggest you educate yourself on the idea of a Theocracy via Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy
" @DCFGS3 said:No. Both the Greeks and Romans developed many of their own ideas. I believe a Greek philosopher even predicted the existence of atoms. In any case, how can you assume that the Romans and Greeks stole ideas from other cultures, but Islamic society did not? And I don't consider their belief in God backward, merely their impoverished, war torn, extremist societies to be. I don't deny that European societies were once like that, but we have grown out of that, Islamic societies, and the Islamic religion, have yet to.Do you mean the many technological advances they learned from the many civilisations they captured and colonized, very much like when the British discovered how to cast large scale iron objects in India which prompted the industrial revolution in Britain, and then onto the world? Haha. I personally don't deem a fragment of the population that choose to follow a certain god, as backward, I think that's dumb and hate driven. "" @Linkyshinks said:
Not entirely accurate. I think you'll find that the average historian overlooks Greek and Roman technological advances as well. Roman and Greek societies built massively complicated machines and understood a wide variety of things such as both maths and astronomy before Islam was even founded. The fact that they overlook the Islamic renaissance is kind of irrelevant, they overlook everything in one way or another. Now the reason Muslim cultures are depicted as backward is because quite frankly they are. To my knowledge there are no 1st World Muslim countries, Dubai, Bahrain etc are often cited as such, but in reality the wealth disparity is massive in those countries. On topic, and quite frankly who cares? You don't want to depict your Prophet? Fine. But I sure as hell can. It's called free speech. Muslims (and I know I use the term generally, and I apologise, but in Western countries it does seem to be Muslims who are frequently the ones doing this) need to get over their religion. Everybody has heard a catholic church joke, or a Jew Joke, or a Black Joke. South Park makes fun of these on a regular basis, I think the unofficial motto is 'nobody is safe', so why the hell should Muslims lose their shit when their prophet is only shown, not even insulted? "" @Flaime said:
Christianity has no laws what so ever on the depiction of Jesus, Muslims do have laws on depicting their profit and other forms of god's creation, that's why they have no pictorial art, but instead have have high art on par with ours (discovered through rigorous mathematical endeavour*) found within their architecture. * Muslim cultures around the world are often depicted as being a backwards in the West, and this despite them making some of the biggest advances in mathematics, science and astronomy in our past. While they had street lighting, we had caves, but we never hear of this kind of thing today, one has to ask why. Western scholars have filled the history books with bullshit. "" Kinda the same situation we in Denmark had a couple of years ago with the so-called Muhammed Drawings. We got threatened, boycotted, protested against and other manners like that. The Islamic culture wanted us to apologies, but we didn't, because we have Liberty of Speech, and we stand by it. If you start to act on these presumably empty threats, you show that you are weak and can be manipulated with.
@Linkyshinks: I found the episode really funny, also the drawings made here in Denmark. Their purpose is to entertain, and they succeeded in that, at least with one person. Jesus has been featured in many South Park episodes, but no protests or threats based of that. "
Has no one brought up that the group that threatened Trey and Matt is based in New York? Cause that's an important distinction, in my eyes. They use the freedom of speech laws of the United States to do their thing, which in this case was to shut down the freedom of speech of another.
Well... That was the point Jon Stewart was making on The Daily Show." Has no one brought up that the group that threatened Trey and Matt is based in New York? Cause that's an important distinction, in my eyes. They use the freedom of speech laws of the United States to do their thing, which in this case was to shut down the freedom of speech of another. "
I was kind of disappointed on his take on the matter though.
It wasn't really *that* clever in my opinion.
I agree, it wasn't super clever, but not everything they do can be comedy gold. I imagine they were coming at it more from their own perspective. As they showed, they get plenty of material ripping on all the religions. I imagine they felt Comedy Central's decision to heavily censor the episode could eventually encroach on their territory just as much.
Freedom of speech motherfucker...
It's absolutely retarted. The whole episdoe is MAKING FUN OF THIS VERY THING!
Sure, show Buddha snorting cocaine, but God forbid someone shows Muhhamed... fucking bullshit
Hmmmmm makes me want to start up my muhammad t-shirt business idea. It goes along with my muhammad: coffee cup, pencil/pen sets, coasters, wall calenders and other such novelty items business. I'd make a killing selling it to the southern states.
Seriously though, I sort of want to do it if not for any other reason than spite.
" @Slax said:Yeah I see where you are coming from, but I don't think people should be looking at the people as a whole as an enemy. Maybe I'm misunderstanding people but it seems like some people in this thread are taking Muslims and saying that they all are attacking our way of living.We're in agreement here. Im more bothered that this an issue in 2010 on principle. That 20/20 or Dateline could never even do a story on Muhammad, in the context of understanding the enemy's rationale for fighting. Southpark's point in bringing it up was that we've been fighting a war for almost a decade and we're not even allowed to talk about specific core issues pertaining to it for fear of instigating further attacks from people who already have plenty of reasons to hate and attack us. We can't exactly pretend we're winning when fear of reprisal censors TV airing 8 thousand miles away. "" @ryanwho said:
" @Slax said:Well then in an attempt to not dodge the issue, I think that Comedy Central has every right to censor the show they allow on air. It's their call, and I feel that whatever decision they make is well within their bounds. I don't think it impinges on freedom of speech in the slightest. The South Park guys can go release it online or something un-censored if they feel like they were slighted. "" @extremeradical said:That just dodges the issue. That Muhamad gets a special exception. The context literally doesn't matter at all, even bringing it up is a red herring. "" But depicting their prophet serves no purpose aside from offending Muslims. It's not for any educational purpose- it's just crossing the line for no reason except for shock value. "Yeah I'm with you on this. But then again I've never been the biggest proponent for South Park. "
I am more of a "If you don't like it, don't watch it" mentality, but some people, and I guess a certain group of Muslims, feel that there are some things that comedy tv or even television as a whole shouldn't touch... I guess there are ways of dealing with that request respectfully.
" I can understand why Muslims would get angry over this, it directly goes against one of the rules of their religion and I kind of respect someone who is that passionate about their beliefs. They are far more passionate about following their religion than most people are over free speech. I do think Comedy Central made the problem worse by going over board on censorship, but perhaps some information came up that we are not privy to. "And that is the pathetic part.
Free Speech is one thing that every person should be willing to fight to the death to protect.
No matter how Racist, Ignorant or just plain false a statement is, You have the RIGHT to say it (That's the RIGHT, NOT the privilege)
Without this right you are NOT a free person, And without freedom you are nothing.
DO NOT TAKE YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH FOR GRANTED
Unless of course you believe that other people should have the ability to tell you what to do, what to think and how to feel.
I have no idea how anyone could take the Muslim side on this issue.
I think the muslim community took this way too seriously since every other religious figure was depicted in a worse way, however in there reiligous text (Qu'ran) it does state that there should be no drawings of prophet Muhamed. I have a muslim employee and he was really disturbed by the episode. The thing that I told him was that Matt and Trey probably aren't muslim so they do not know that muhamed should not be drawn. Another thing that I should note is that he literally follows his religious text word by word which I do not believe in and he says that Jesus is mentioned and highly regarded in the Qu'ran. I think it's up to the individual to decide what it means to them. From what I understand Islam is supposed to be the most peaceful religion by nature, but these extremists make it seem so strict and what not. Regardless, I do not believe Comedy Central should have censored the episode and I don't believe Matt and Trey did anything wrong. It's a free world and they have every right to say and do what they want.
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